Enda Kenny has let rip on the Vatican.

Turtwig

Nodin wrote: »

In any event, if you aren't able or willing to even attempt to explain your position in your own words, it doesn't say much for your faith in it, or its strength.

You left out the crucial bit : His/Her understanding of it.

recedite

Morbert wrote: »

Hmm, I'm confused about the claim that someone is 40 to 80 times more likely to be abused by a priest.

Consider the table below.


These numbers are presumably fairly typical. Priests don't seem to stand out, as the proportion of all abusers seems to reflect the proportion of all authority figures.

Adding together the two categories of male priests/brothers (religious teachers and ministers) I get 28.3%....a pretty shocking % of paedos.

goose2005

Bristolian wrote: »

The nuns of Ireland ran our hospitals with greater efficiency than the HSE, and at far less cost.

I'm sick of seeing the assertion being made without any evidence that nuns were better than "lay" nurses.

The Celtic Tiger was made possible by a conservative educational system that was largely the creation of the Catholic Church.

Our education system is a creation of generations of taxpaying citizens; it was parasitized by the churches for their own ends.

Tens of thousands of Irish people became priests, brothers and nuns, in the fond and fervent expectation that they would be serving God and the needs of others, not themselves or their own appetites.

Not wishing to invoke Godwin, but didn't people join the SS for the same reasons? Merely being fervent doesn't make you good or right. Also, quite a few men became priests because of the authority and respect it would bring, not to mention the familial approval.

Nodin

The Vatican has confirmed that Papal Nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza has been recalled to Rome for consultations on the Cloyne report.
A statement highlights the reactions that have followed the publication of the report - a veiled reference to the Taoiseach's unprecedented attack on the Holy See for allegedly undermining the Irish bishops' mandatory reporting policy regarding clerical child sexual abuse.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0725/cloyne.html

'Wait...come back....don't go.....'






'Only messin. Feck off.'

Nodin

From the Beeb, which doesn't paraphrase the way RTE has seen fit to.

Vice-director of the Vatican press office Father Ciro Benedettini said the nuncio's recall "should be interpreted as an expression of the desire of the Holy See for serious and effective collaboration with the (Irish) government".
He added that it "denotes the seriousness of the situation and the Holy See's desire to face it objectively and determinately.
"Nor does it exclude some degree of surprise and disappointment at certain excessive reactions."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14272988

I'd suggest that Father Ciro is somewhat out of touch with whats consided "excessive reactions". In this case that would include elements such as rope and fire.

who the fug

By this stage they they have run out of feet and are just shooting themselves in their balls.

One Really Despairs

Zillah

Wait...I'm confused.

Is this one of those "We're recalling our envoy as a form of protest" situations, or are they just flying him back to have a talk with him?

Because it really seems like the first one, but they're describing it like its the second one.

Let me guess, it's the first one, because they think they're still powerful and deserve respect, but they're treating it like the second one, because they have no problem with bald-faced lies when it comes to public perception of their actions?

Penn

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

Zillah

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

Probably...

On this forum anyway.

Revolution9

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

Holy C is the new name for communion bread, they want to make it appeal to children, play on the Special K angle.

Seriously though, what exactly is the "holy see"?

Dades

Revolution9 wrote: »

Seriously though, what exactly is the "holy see"?

They have a special signal, too.

Hold up your index and thumb as if you were making a "C" shape and poke your other index finger in and out of the center of it.

If you look closely during the Pope's inauguration you can see some of the bishops doing it down the back.

Mark Hamill

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

I thought the papal nuncio was a piece of paper.

mikhail

Barrington wrote: »

Am I the only one who has never heard of the term Holy See before the past few weeks?

I prefer to render the term "magic chair".

recedite

Zillah wrote: »

Is this one of those "We're recalling our envoy as a form of protest" situations, or are they just flying him back to have a talk with him?

After Enda's speech, the Papal Munchkin made some remarks which he expected to be reported in the media, but Enda said he expected a formal response, nothing less.

If you remember back to a previous occasion, when the govt. wanted to speak to the Papal Munchkin in relation to one of the inquiries, he informed the govt. that as he was a foreign diplomat, they would have to make a formal application through the proper diplomatic channels (which would take too long), and thus he evaded being questioned.

So the Munchkin has gone off in a huff now. No point trying to read too much into that though; best to wait for the formal statement to be issued from the Vatican.

magicbastarder

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0725/1224301316143.html?via=mr

oceanclub

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0725/1224301316143.html?via=mr

Vincent Twomey - yet another Iona Institute patron, along with David Quinn and Breda O'Brien, who are the only people to come out and bat on behalf of the Vatican in the media this week:

http://www.ionainstitute.ie/personnel_patrons.php

P.

recedite

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0725/1224301316143.html?via=mr

Fr. Twomey seems to be saying the Irish Bishops couldn't implement their own new guidelines because civil law does not yet have "mandatory reporting".
This is false, anyone can implement their own guidelines as long as they are not actually illegal.
The lack of any "mandatory reporting" stipulation in the Republic was to protect the priests from having to report what they heard as a confessional.
But now they are going to lose that protection, because some of them didn't follow the guidelines, which was mainly because the Vatican told them the guidelines complied with neither canon law nor civil law.
The guidelines were a last ditch response to years of public outrage and falling mass attendance, and complied with common sense and decency.

kylith

Enda's like Hitler, says Togher priest.
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/newsletter-rant-shocks-mass-goers-162456.html

Newsletter rant shocks Mass-goers

By Michelle O’Keeffe

Thursday, July 28, 2011

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny has been likened to Nazi leader Adolf Hitler in a Mass newsletter, following his attack on the Pope.

Shocked Mass-goers in Togher, Co Louth, were left reeling by an article in the parish bulletin in relation to Mr Kenny’s outburst in the Dáil following the damning Cloyne Report with the headline "Heil Herr Kenny".

It stated: "The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler."

Parish priest Fr Thomas Daly was not available yesterday to comment on the article.

But one local man said: "Everybody was really shocked when they read the piece in the parish bulletin. Everybody in the area is talking about it. It is a bit much comparing the leader of Ireland to Hitler — the article went too far."

The newsletter, which was in the Church of St Columcille in Togher on Sunday, went on to say: "Perhaps he (Enda Kenny) might also keep in mind that the profile of Knock was hugely raised by the visit of a former Pope (John Paul II) to the shrine in 1979.

"If history teaches us one lesson, it must surely be a call to be careful about the canonisation of political leaders.

"Even Hitler had to face that reality. A cautionary tale."

Mr Kenny unleashed a scathing attack on the Vatican last week for its attitude to protecting children from sexual abuse.

In the special Dáil debate on the Cloyne report, he said it exposed an attempt by the Holy See to frustrate an inquiry into child sex abuse just three years ago.

He said the rape and torture of children had been downplayed or "managed" to uphold the institution’s power and reputation.

The Togher parish bulletin stated: "The last European leader to make such a blistering attack on the Pope was the ruthless German dictator Adolf Hitler.

"His Dáil speech was greeted with shouts of jubilation by almost every journalist and TV pundit in the country.

"Is this the new Ireland? Is this the fulfilment of the dreams of the founding fathers?

"‘No Pope here’. Is this the way forward for a new and better Ireland?

"Perhaps we might try and find a way to build new bridges with the Shankhill Road people."


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/newsletter-rant-shocks-mass-goers-162456.html#ixzz1TQIwXWPM

The Mad Hatter

Dades wrote: »

They have a special signal, too.

Hold up your index and thumb as if you were making a "C" shape and poke your other index finger in and out of the center of it.

The Holey C.

strobe

Zillah wrote: »

Wait...I'm confused.

Is this one of those "We're recalling our envoy as a form of protest" situations, or are they just flying him back to have a talk with him?

Because it really seems like the first one, but they're describing it like its the second one.

Let me guess, it's the first one, because they think they're still powerful and deserve respect, but they're treating it like the second one, because they have no problem with bald-faced lies when it comes to public perception of their actions?

With the calls for his expulsion from sitting members if the Irish parliament coupled with Mr Kenny's address, I think there could have been a fair dollop of "You can't fire me, I quit!!" from whatshisface and the Vatican. Pull him out to make sure he can't be pushed, sort of thing. Another example of the Vatican placing PR and media relations above all else yet again.

fontanalis

kylith wrote: »

Enda's like Hitler, says Togher priest.
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/newsletter-rant-shocks-mass-goers-162456.html

Surely thst much stupid must be bad for your health?

BluntGuy

John Waters leaps to the Pope's rescue with this utterly drivellous tripe.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0720/breaking42.html

THERE WAS nothing particularly “courageous” about Enda Kenny’s speech. It might have been brave 30 or 40 years ago, when the swishing soutanes and swinging thuribles did indeed rule the roost.

But not now, when the rulers are the secular-atheists and pseudo-rationalists who foist their nihilistic formulas on our children, while pretending that John Charles McQuaid is still breathing down their necks from Drumcondra.

The speech played that odd trick with time that has become the hallmark of much contemporary politics and commentary: purporting to confront some immense power in the present while challenging only phantoms. Anyone with the slightest grasp of reality knows the Irish Catholic hierarchy is a sorry sight, terrified of standing up to the new ascendancy, and that the Vatican is all but irrelevant to the running of the Irish church. But let us not let the facts cramp our style.

Some elements of Enda’s speech were welcome, mainly because the position of Taoiseach has been devoid of rigour and inspiration for so long. It was, fundamentally, a catch-up speech, compensating for the silence and equivocation that has characterised Irish politics down the years, with the crozier and Christ treated as synonymous. Its main strength was its sense of an exasperated venting, which may do some good. The Vatican does not comprehend the extent and nature of the crisis in contemporary Irish culture, and has been guided by the worst possible advice. Now, perhaps, it has awoken to the smell of coffee.

Some elements of the speech were reprehensible, especially the attack on Pope Benedict, which indicated gross ignorance, perhaps even malice. It is a sad day when the Taoiseach seems to have been trawling the internet for quotes – any quotes, regardless of context – to undermine the spiritual leader of the vast majority of his own people. I merely record this as a passing observation, having long understood that, in these matters, the truth is irrelevant.

Everyone associated with the Taoiseach’s speech knew that this unjust and dishonest attack would pass largely unchallenged, for who now cares to defend the Pope? Much has been made of the Taoiseach’s references to the fact of his own Catholicism. But, no more than his predecessors who bent the knee to Rome, Kenny did not outline what Catholicism means for him, speaking as if he regards the church mainly as a social force, to be dealt with according to the prevailing political climate. He seems to think of the church in the way shareholders regard their company’s board. He did not resort to throwing eggs, but it seemed a close call.

From rumblings otherwise, it seems he is now ad idem with the atheist ayatollahs of the Labour Party, preparing not merely to remove the right of Irish Catholic children to a Catholic education, but, in proposing laws to override the confessional seal, to attack the confidentiality which is at the core of pastoral relationships.

Ostensibly, Kenny was addressing the Dáil, but his words were directed at the invisible new regime, which has the power to make or break him as Taoiseach. He knows that he is in office on sufferance and that the regime, operating through the soft tissue of the Labour Party, will pull the plug the moment his all-hat-and-no-cattle Government shows signs of outliving its usefulness. Government politicians know they must take every opportunity to do the regime’s bidding, accumulating brownie points for the lean days to come. Sticking it to the Catholic Church is guaranteed to meet with the regime’s approval.

It would be delusional to imagine that we have left behind us the kind of Ireland in which those holding public office were answerable to forces or interests behind the scenes. Nowadays, power does not vest itself in soutanes, but operates over dinner tables and putting greens, making its imperatives known and reinforcing its world view through a media culture as malleable and compliant as in the allegedly dark days of the 1950s.

Power nowadays can be tracked in the cruder levels of public sentiment, drawing close those whose interests correspond to the objectives of the regime and banishing those deemed to represent some outmoded form of authority.

The moral content of this culture is overwhelmingly a matter of posture. Facts alone do not matter, but must be considered within the ecology of victimhood, which decides everything in advance. The truth is another planet. By claiming to represent the children of the nation, you acquire licence to say or do what you please.

But there are many ways of abusing children. You can sit them in desks and subject them to the knowing nonsense of cynics who steal their hope and joy so as to demonstrate repugnance of some derelict or decomposed authority. You can sell them false versions of freedom to make yourself rich. You can fill their heads with nihilism and wonder why they attempt to obliterate themselves with chemicals.

But, not to worry: the wreckage of present-day swishing and swinging can be left for the next generation, just as we now belatedly deal with the consequences of the sins and abuses of a time from which we are separated by time and the collateral innocence it has conferred on us.

robindch

BluntGuy wrote: »

But, not to worry: the wreckage of present-day swishing and swinging can be left for the next generation, just as we now belatedly deal with the consequences of the sins and abuses of a time from which we are separated by time and the collateral innocence it has conferred on us.

That's the sound of a man writing way past his verbal ability.

Delirium

so he complains that the speech Enda gave was long overdue while at the same time defending the religious indoctrination policy in public schools?

It's really weird that he uses the "he wouldn't have said that back when the RCC was in control of most things" argument to try and devalue the speech Enda gave. Where I would view it that the country is slowly developing it's own identity and not one that the RCC would like us to have.


Nice paragraph of crap about how essentially a secular school system will steal the souls of the children. :rolleyes:

AhSureTisGrand

IIRC correctly he once said that because Obama was a "rock star president", he too was a nihilist. Can anyone find this article?

magicbastarder

'the irish catholic' have given inda's speech a welcome:

http://www.thejournal.ie/catholic-newspaper-applauds-taoiseachs-vatican-speech-188997-Jul2011/

mikhail

John Waters wrote:

But there are many ways of abusing children.

Yes there are.

You can sit them in desks and subject them to the knowing nonsense of cynics who steal their hope and joy so as to demonstrate repugnance of some derelict or decomposed authority.

Yes you can.

You can sell them false versions of freedom to make yourself rich.

Yes you can.

You can fill their heads with nihilism and wonder why they attempt to obliterate themselves with chemicals.

No one would ever associate the old, religious Ireland with substance abuse, would they?

recedite

John Waters wrote:

I merely record this as a passing observation, having long understood that, in these matters, the truth is irrelevant.

Yeah, if you say so, John, you're the expert :rolleyes: