Ferrybank Shopping Centre - Again

Sully

Deise67 wrote: »

just as a by the way what exactly would busing people out from an already decimated city center achive ? besides filling the coffers of kk council with rates ?

You can't restrict peoples choice purely because of greed. People are entitled to choice. Waterford has three out of city center shopping complexes. Neither of them offer very much. Sure, Kilkenny will get rates but what's to say a Waterford business wouldn't setup and employ Waterford people? Or any business setup and hire people from Waterford?

Digital Society

Deise67 wrote: »

just as a by the way what exactly would busing people out from an already decimated city center achive ? besides filling the coffers of kk council with rates ?

Typical narrow minded Waterford attitude. If your happy living in your little corner you just stay there.

People who arent narrow minded might just make a 30 minute trip in there car down to see the new shops whereas they go to Kilkenny now instead.

If there smart about it they can open up a lot of womens shops and the men might be dragged a long with the kids. before you know it they could be bringing in millions of extra revenue plus more jobs.

Complete misers get no where in life. Waterford is living proof. If you dont spend you dont get. Hints of racism in the comments then as if all Waterfords problems are from Kilkenny people. Get over your jealousy and come out from under your rock there.

robtri

Deise67 wrote: »

just as a by the way what exactly would busing people out from an already decimated city center achive ? besides filling the coffers of kk council with rates ?

cause they are already leaving the city centre to go to the kilkennys, corks, clonmels, dublins to do shopping....
while it would be better to have them shop here in the waterford surrounds...
its not about the rates which for some apparent reason people focus on, it about employing local people, spending money locally etc.... getting things moving....

wellboytoo

Sully wrote: »

You can't restrict peoples choice purely because of greed. People are entitled to choice. Waterford has three out of city center shopping complexes. Neither of them offer very much. Sure, Kilkenny will get rates but what's to say a Waterford business wouldn't setup and employ Waterford people? Or any business setup and hire people from Waterford?

Yes you can, with planning laws which were flouted in granting planning for this, it is a classic planning F Up that creates the doughnut effect in cities world wide.

Yes Boss

wellboytoo wrote: »

Yes you can, with planning laws which were flouted in granting planning for this, it is a classic planning F Up that creates the doughnut effect in cities world wide.

It really is a no brainer. If we continue to abuse our City and allow it to be raped, it will never get any better.

Frigga_92

As has been said a million times before, debating about how wrong the building and planning of this centre was really is pointless at this stage. It is there and it now needs to serve some purpose that will bring money into the area.

Max Powers

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

As has been said a million times before, debating about how wrong the building and planning of this centre was really is pointless at this stage. It is there and it now needs to serve some purpose that will bring money into the area.

Call centre or split into other offices. but i think eventually one of the supermarkets will go in there and in about 10 years it will be half full...probably

Sully

Max Powers wrote: »

Call centre or split into other offices. but i think eventually one of the supermarkets will go in there and in about 10 years it will be half full...probably

I'd imagine the cost of gutting it and making it suitable to office space or call center space wouldn't make any sense. It's built as a shopping complex. It's just waiting for tenants and part of the problem was the downturn and Dunnes not going in as originally agreed. No small tenant will go in until an anchor is found. It appears at this stage, there is no interest in letting it out and there hasn't been much movement at all in the years since it's developed.

The fact remains that it's only a short distance from Waterford City, it's not a bad development and has ample parking. If it was to fill out with shops, it might just pull more people to this side of Waterford from various parts of Kilkenny and Wexford. These people are in close proximity to the City Center so nothing stopping them popping into the City for a bit more shopping. It creates a busy side to the City. At present, these people are not flocking to Waterford. Creating a busy square / heart around Waterford has potential but the problem people have is that it's a Kilkenny based project.

Remember - we have three other out of town developments that create employment and puts money into the local economy. Which is badly needed.

fricatus

Sully wrote: »

The fact remains that it's only a short distance from Waterford City, it's not a bad development and has ample parking.

De facto it is in Waterford city, but as far south in the KK administrative area as is possible, which was precisely why it was given planning permission: because it could pull in shoppers from all over the city and at the same time raise juicy rates revenue that KK council couldn't ignore (and who could blame them really?)

Sully wrote: »

If it was to fill out with shops, it might just pull more people to this side of Waterford from various parts of Kilkenny and Wexford. These people are in close proximity to the City Center so nothing stopping them popping into the City for a bit more shopping. It creates a busy side to the City. At present, these people are not flocking to Waterford.

And do you really think this would attract people to Waterford (the city centre) who wouldn't come here otherwise? More likely I think is that any extra visitors would drive to the shopping centre, do their bit of shopping, and then drive home.

How many people who visit Dundrum or Newbridge centres step outside and visit Dundrum village or Newbridge main street? Very few I'd wager. Also, do you know of any shopping centre anywhere that has a shuttle bus to a nearby retail area with which it's in competition?

Shopping centres only benefit a city centre if they're in that city centre, and people can walk out the door into the wider shopping precinct. Anyone can see that!

Sully wrote: »

Creating a busy square / heart around Waterford has potential but the problem people have is that it's a Kilkenny based project.

We already have a busy central area - Waterford city centre! We have enough difficulty filling the shops there and getting people to visit. We do not need a second shopping precinct! It's nothing to do with being a "Kilkenny based project". The problem is that it would be the largest shopping centre in the south-east, rather than a neighbourhood-sized centre, which is what Ferrybank (population approximately 5,000) needed.

Sully wrote: »

Remember - we have three other out of town developments that create employment and puts money into the local economy. Which is badly needed.

None of them are this large or in direct competition with the city centre (remember how TK Maxx were in contravention of their planning permission in Butlerstown?).

And the jobs argument is a nonsense - if this place were to open, you could be sure that there would be plenty of job losses in the city centre as a result. If your argument made any sense, shur we could get the country back on its feet just by opening shopping centres everywhere! Remember where that got us?

Yes Boss

It is idiotic to think that any retail offering in this centre will compliment the City Centre. This is one of the principle reasons why the Outlet Centre on the Cork Road was refused because there is no synergy and if anything will further undermine the City Centre. It would be a short-sighted decision with long term consequences.

The unit itself is just a shell. Converting it to offices or a conference facility would be comparable in costs to fitting it out as a retail centre......

wellboytoo

Sully you are talking through your hat, it will be bad for Waterford if this ever opens full stop.
No matter how you dress this up it ia detrimental to the core inner City, but this argument is academic anyway, if Dunnes stores paid €20,000,000.00 NOT to go in there what are the chances of anyone else paying money to go in there?
Only KK had a minister to throw money at it through opening of a library to try cover their blushes it would be empty still.
NAMA will eventually get sick of paying the constant security and maintenance costs and flog it at a knock down price to someone and hopefully it will be used for something other than a shopping centre, or preferably a small shopping centre which Ferrybank need desperately.

Digital Society

Yes Boss wrote: »

It is idiotic to think that any retail offering in this centre will compliment the City Centre. This is one of the principle reasons why the Outlet Centre on the Cork Road was refused because there is no synergy and if anything will further undermine the City Centre. It would be a short-sighted decision with long term consequences.

The unit itself is just a shell. Converting it to offices or a conference facility would be comparable in costs to fitting it out as a retail centre......

Now theres an idea. Waterfords Version of the O2. Some company might fund it and all. Can always dream.

Digital Society

wellboytoo wrote: »

or preferably a small shopping centre which Ferrybank need desperately.

What would go into it thats not already there?

wellboytoo

Digital Society wrote: »

What would go into it thats not already there?

Copy and paste Superquinn/Supervalue on the Tramore road, that's what should be there , it would have created a nucleus to Ferrybank which is missing and it would be full.
But Derry Mc Philips somehow convinced KK plannlng department to give him planning, probably because of his success with City Square originally, to build this monstrosity, albeit a nice design it is just too big and in the wrong place,

mozattack

Erotic massage centre perhaps?

Then again it would empty the city centre!

BBM77

Sully wrote: »

...the problem people have is that it's a Kilkenny based project...

I strongly disagree with this. I am one of the people who has disagreed on this site with the Ferrybank Shopping Centre being built and it was not because it was a Kilkenny based project. It was due to the nature of the project and the planning behind it. I was equally against the shopping centre proposed on the Airport Rd in Waterford. I am against all shopping centres of this kind because I have seen the problems they cause in this country and other countries with my own eyes. That they cause many problems with little real gain.

fricatus

BBM77 wrote: »

I was equally against the shopping centre proposed on the Airport Rd in Waterford.

Good point, which I think dispels the whole anti-Kilkenny argument that gets trotted out. Can I just say that I objected to that plan too, on the same grounds under which I object to the Ferrybank centre - I'm certain I'm on record on this site as doing so.

robtri

BBM77 wrote: »

I strongly disagree with this. I am one of the people who has disagreed on this site with the Ferrybank Shopping Centre being built and it was not because it was a Kilkenny based project. It was due to the nature of the project and the planning behind it. I was equally against the shopping centre proposed on the Airport Rd in Waterford. I am against all shopping centres of this kind because I have seen the problems they cause in this country and other countries with my own eyes. That they cause many problems with little real gain.

what part of the planning behind it was questionable?

Nypd

robtri wrote: »

what part of the planning behind it was questionable?

The sheer size and location for a start.

BBM77

robtri wrote: »

what part of the planning behind it was questionable?

Are you serious? I’m not rewriting what has already been written. I think the fact that it has been empty for years with no sign of this changing is proof that the planning was seriously flawed. I mean for god sake the population growth figures for the area seemed to have been pulled from thin air.

robtri

BBM77 wrote: »

Are you serious? I’m not rewriting what has already been written. I think the fact that it has been empty for years with no sign of this changing is proof that the planning was seriously flawed. I mean for god sake the population growth figures for the area seemed to have been pulled from thin air.

I would disagree, when planning was granted population was due to grow dramatically out in ferrybank, hence all the estates that where built and where granted planning permission.
The owners had a high profile anchor tenant who had agreed to go in. they had agreements for library.
Planning was fine..... problem was the recession hit and now its a white elephant, but at the time it was sound.

robtri

Nypd wrote: »

The sheer size and location for a start.

size was adequate for the anchor tenant and the projected growth population.
In theroy it was a good location for the type of develoment, considering Ferrybank and other localities around there, the size wasn't excessive and that Waterford Ciry centre was a nightmare for planning due to locals protesting at every development that planning was sought for

BBM77

robtri wrote: »

I would disagree, when planning was granted population was due to grow dramatically out in ferrybank, hence all the estates that where built and where granted planning permission.
The owners had a high profile anchor tenant who had agreed to go in. they had agreements for library.
Planning was fine..... problem was the recession hit and now its a white elephant, but at the time it was sound.

You have kind of made my point for me here as to why it is flawed. If a development is all but abandoned due to a recession its bases for it being built in the first place was incredibly short-sighted. City Square has not been abandoned due to the recession in fact there are plans to improve it. If a suburban retail development needs a constant economic boom and pull in people from the entire region to keep it going what more proof do you need that the planning was seriously flawed.

Not to mention “population was due to grow dramatically” seems like a pretty flimsy population growth figures.

robtri

BBM77 wrote: »

You have kind of made my point for me here as to why it is flawed. If a development is all but abandoned due to a recession its bases for it being built in the first place was incredibly short-sighted. City Square has not been abandoned due to the recession in fact there are plans to improve it. If a suburban retail development needs a constant economic boom and pull in people from the entire region to keep it going what more proof do you need that the planning was seriously flawed.

Not to mention “population was due to grow dramatically” seems like a pretty flimsy population growth figures.

So based on that every other shop or business that has closed in Waterford city because of the recession was seriously flawed and should never have been set up??
All I am saying at the time of planing the thought process was in my mind sound. Based of what they had projected and the tenants on board, it looked good.

wellboytoo

robtri wrote: »

I would disagree, when planning was granted population was due to grow dramatically out in ferrybank, hence all the estates that where built and where granted planning permission.
The owners had a high profile anchor tenant who had agreed to go in. they had agreements for library.
Planning was fine..... problem was the recession hit and now its a white elephant, but at the time it was sound.

Utter rubbish you have spoken there, practically all of the overdevelopment in Waterford is in kk ,for the simple reason of money? huge sums of development fees were changed for all the things you mention but all of the problems accrue to Waterford.
The centre is hugely oversized by any standards a d worse for this size design is now becoming a liability, as their is a swing away from large supermarkets .

robtri

wellboytoo wrote: »

Utter rubbish you have spoken there, practically all of the overdevelopment in Waterford is in kk ,for the simple reason of money? huge sums of development fees were changed for all the things you mention but all of the problems accrue to Waterford.
The centre is hugely oversized by any standards a d worse for this size design is now becoming a liability, as their is a swing away from large supermarkets .

Yes cause Waterford is so perfect, things like the development over at Carickpherish road springs straight to mind... Also Waterford nearly had two massive white elephants that would dwarf the ferry bank centre... new gate shopping centre... and the huge development at Bilberry, this was supposed to be a colossal tower with retail and apartments, that was just all ready to go, if the recession hit a coupleyears later then where would it have been
I still say ferrybank was sound at time, just really bad timing....

BBM77

robtri wrote: »

So based on that every other shop or business that has closed in Waterford city because of the recession was seriously flawed and should never have been set up??
All I am saying at the time of planing the thought process was in my mind sound. Based of what they had projected and the tenants on board, it looked good.

No businesses that closed in Waterford during the recession were not seriously flawed. I was making the point that a recession has effects not complete abandonment. To account for what has happened to the Ferrybank Shopping Centre you have to look beyond the recession. The population figures spouted at the time was for population growth in Ferrybank to 10,000 and beyond. Come on, that is not sound.

robtri

BBM77 wrote: »

No businesses that closed in Waterford during the recession were not seriously flawed. I was making the point that a recession has effects not complete abandonment. To account for what has happened to the Ferrybank Shopping Centre you have to look beyond the recession. The population figures spouted at the time was for population growth in Ferrybank to 10,000 and beyond. Come on, that is not sound.

No these shops and premises in waterford city are empty, same as ferrybank sc

In 2011 the population had grown to nearly 5,500
The NSS, national spatial strategy only ever predicted ferrybank to have a poplutaion by 2020 of 6500.
10000 was spoutted by who?

Yes Boss

robtri wrote: »

what part of the planning behind it was questionable?

It was in complete breach of the National Retail Strategy developed by the Department of Environment and implemented by the Local Authorities. However, for some strange reason Kilkenny County Council broke those rules to allow this development to go ahead. An absolutely ignorant decision!

Digital Society

robtri wrote: »

I still say ferrybank was sound at time, just really bad timing....

As someone whos lived beside the site it for years i agree.