Ferrybank Shopping Centre - Again

denis behan city legend

Evening,

I'm a Ferrybank resident (yes, on the KK side) and a blow in.

The level of tribal antagonism here is scary. It's in KK, it has been built, it will open, yes it's far too big for the city's need but that ain't gonna change now so I'd suggest that people get over it.

Waterford is already a doughnut city, it has been for years. Has anybody walked through the city centre any evening, apart from Friday and Saturday nights? There's nobody about.

People from Kilkenny, Wexford and Waterford will come to shop there (I'm not big into the shopping as a religion or pastime thing so I'm not really that bothered). It's effectively part of the city and a mere 5 minute drive from the Bridge (excluding rush hour).

No more shopping centres are going to be built anywhere near the city centre for the foreseeable future. It's better to have them shop in Ferrybank than go to Newbridge, Kilkenny, Dublin, Cork or wherever. Are people that antagonistic towards Kilkenny that they can't see that this also presents an opportunity?Use it as a positive to bring people into the city once they've visited the shopping centre.

If people think that the locals are a bunch of insular whiners (as you'd sometimes get the impression reading this thread) then they're less likely to visit what is such a nice city.

Look at the bigger picture, treat it as an opportunity.

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

I'm just as opposed to out of town shopping (except for heavy goods) out on the Cork Rd as in Kilkenny.

This will cost jobs. It will take people from the city centre. When people shop in a city centre they also often go for a coffee or something for lunch. When people drive to a out of town shopping centre they usually buy their stuff an go home. It also takes away from the economies of scope that Waterford needs to maintain in terms of variety of shops.

People often hate crap ideas, which is probably explains the vitriol.

Do they not have permission for cafes/eateries of some sort in a shopping centre so big?

dayshah

If anyone thinks people are against this just because its in KK read the TK Maxx thread. The same arguments appear there, and TK Maxx was never in Kilkenny.

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Do they not have permission for cafes/eateries of some sort in a shopping centre so big?

If all shopping (apart from groceries and heavy stuff) is concentrated in the city centre people are far more likely to say 'will I meet you in town for lunch, I have to pick something up anyway'. This just does not happen to the same extent in out of town shopping.

We need to maintain a range of shops in the city centre.

Retail is contracting, the VAT increase will make this worse. This won't create new business, it will suck jobs from the city centre and spit out a few of those jobs in Ferrybank.

dayshah

denis behan city legend wrote: »

People from Kilkenny, Wexford and Waterford will come to shop there (I'm not big into the shopping as a religion or pastime thing so I'm not really that bothered). It's effectively part of the city and a mere 5 minute drive from the Bridge (excluding rush hour).

No more shopping centres are going to be built anywhere near the city centre for the foreseeable future. It's better to have them shop in Ferrybank than go to Newbridge, Kilkenny, Dublin, Cork or wherever. Are people that antagonistic towards Kilkenny that they can't see that this also presents an opportunity?Use it as a positive to bring people into the city once they've visited the shopping centre.

TK Maxx was located a similar distance from the city centre, and it was opposed. Ferrybank is integrated into the city, but its not the city centre. I'm against NEXT in Ardkeen too.

You are also contradicting yourself. If people are only saving themselves 5 minutes with the new place, why would that attract people from Newbridge, Cork, or Dublin. It might take some business from the McDonagh Centre in Kilkenny too, so Kilkenny people should be against it too. Also, anyone from Ferrybank who works in the city centre should be against it too, as there is no point in having a shiny shopping centre if you are put on the dole.

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

TK Maxx was located a similar distance from the city centre, and it was opposed. Ferrybank is integrated into the city, but its not the city centre. I'm against NEXT in Ardkeen too.

You are also contradicting yourself. If people are only saving themselves 5 minutes with the new place, why would that attract people from Newbridge, Cork, or Dublin. It might take some business from the McDonagh Centre in Kilkenny too, so Kilkenny people should be against it too. Also, anyone from Ferrybank who works in the city centre should be against it too, as there is no point in having a shiny shopping centre if you are put on the dole.

I think what he meant was it's better to have people shopping locally in Ferrybank than going all the way to Newbridge, Cork or Dublin.

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

If anyone thinks people are against this just because its in KK read the TK Maxx thread. The same arguments appear there, and TK Maxx was never in Kilkenny.

If all shopping (apart from groceries and heavy stuff) is concentrated in the city centre people are far more likely to say 'will I meet you in town for lunch, I have to pick something up anyway'. This just does not happen to the same extent in out of town shopping.

We need to maintain a range of shops in the city centre.

Retail is contracting, the VAT increase will make this worse. This won't create new business, it will suck jobs from the city centre and spit out a few of those jobs in Ferrybank.

You could also say if you have a shopping centre with some decent shops and some decent cafes/eateries then people will be more likely to say "lets head to X shopping centre for lunch and then do some shopping".

I really think the whole "It's so big, it's too big a development for the area" argument needs to be put to bed.

dayshah

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I think what he meant was it's better to have people shopping locally in Ferrybank than going all the way to Newbridge, Cork or Dublin.

Reading through this I think most people in Ferrybank want a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores; and I don't think anyone would begrudge them that. But if a full blown shopping mall takes off it will seriously damage the city centre.

I strongly doubt it will be viable in the long term, but it will drain enough life from the city centre to do Waterford harm.

In the end the shopping centre will close down (as it won't cover its running costs), but the damage to the city centre will have been done.

fricatus

denis behan city legend wrote: »

Use it as a positive to bring people into the city once they've visited the shopping centre.

You see, that's the problem. That's not going to happen. Nobody drives to a shopping centre, does their business, and then goes into town, just for the hell of it. They go home, and the city centre suffers.

What needed to happen was for the next big shopping centre in Waterford to be built in the city centre, so that it attracts people in. Once they're in the city centre, they'll wander around the streets nearby, but let's not kid ourselves - they won't get back in their cars and drive downtown once they've done their shopping.

dayshah

pixiebean22 wrote: »

You could also say if you have a shopping centre with some decent shops and some decent cafes/eateries then people will be more likely to say "lets head to X shopping centre for lunch and then do some shopping".

I really think the whole "It's so big, it's too big a development for the area" argument needs to be put to bed.

Only people with cars will do that, and it will never have the same range of things as the city centre. Also no-one from the Waterford side would think of travelling out there for a snack, no more than someone would travel from Hillview to Ardkeen to go Subway or the café by the Ardkeen library.

Its worth taking a look at Dublin, and places like the CHQ. It has 2 or 3 shops, and about 20 vacant units. It had more, but went out of business due to lack of interest.

At best only half the place will be filled, but that will still take enough business from the city centre for a few cafés to close.

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

Reading through this I think most people in Ferrybank want a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores; and I don't think anyone would begrudge them that. But if a full blown shopping mall takes off it will seriously damage the city centre.

I strongly doubt it will be viable in the long term, but it will drain enough life from the city centre to do Waterford harm.

In the end the shopping centre will close down (as it won't cover its running costs), but the damage to the city centre will have been done.

Well according to the majority of the posters on this thread "a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores" should not be allowed, is not necessary and won't serve enough people to justify it etc etc. I have to disagree when you say nobody would begrudge them that, that seems to be all many posters want to do.

If a shopping mall is not desirable then what should go in there? At this stage I don't think there's any possibility of it not including at least a large anchor tenant such as Dunnes/Tesco so what should go in there with a Dunnes/Tesco or similar store?

dayshah

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Well according to the majority of the posters on this thread "a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores" should not be allowed, is not necessary and won't serve enough people to justify it etc etc. I have to disagree when you say nobody would begrudge them that, that seems to be all many posters want to do.

If a shopping mall is not desirable then what should go in there? At this stage I don't think there's any possibility of it not including at least a large anchor tenant such as Dunnes/Tesco so what should go in there with a Dunnes/Tesco or similar store?

Who has objected to a Dunnes/Tesco? The Ferrybank Centre is WAY more than just a Tesco.

They can put in a Tesco, laundrette, and indoor go kart/adventure centre for the rest of the empty space.

Maybe it could be remodelled as some sort of call centre, or offices and take advantage of proximity to Belview.

daenerysstormborn3

fricatus wrote: »

You see, that's the problem. That's not going to happen. Nobody drives to a shopping centre, does their business, and then goes into town, just for the hell of it. They go home, and the city centre suffers.

What needed to happen was for the next big shopping centre in Waterford to be built in the city centre, so that it attracts people in. Once they're in the city centre, they'll wander around the streets nearby, but let's not kid ourselves - they won't get back in their cars and drive downtown once they've done their shopping.

The shopping centre is already built. It is sitting there idle. Debating whether or not the next big shopping centre should've been built here, there or wherever is a pointless discussion at this stage.

dayshah wrote: »

Only people with cars will do that, and it will never have the same range of things as the city centre. Also no-one from the Waterford side would think of travelling out there for a snack, no more than someone would travel from Hillview to Ardkeen to go Subway or the café by the Ardkeen library.

Its worth taking a look at Dublin, and places like the CHQ. It has 2 or 3 shops, and about 20 vacant units. It had more, but went out of business due to lack of interest.

At best only half the place will be filled, but that will still take enough business from the city centre for a few cafés to close.

Okay so only people with cars will drive to the shopping centre to have something to eat and do some shopping. How do you think the majority of people get into town from the Ferrybank/Kilkenny/Wexford side?

It's also worth taking a look at Citywest Shopping Centre as I have pointed out numerous times on this thread. I lived in Citywest, went to all the RA meetings, the general consensus was that it was a disaster, wouldn't take off and they'd be stuck with this giant eyesore (it is on an even larger scale than the shopping centre in Ferrybank and in a very prominent position). Look at it now. Booming (as much as a centre can be) and the Luas now stops outside the door. Citywest started out with Dunnes, a small newsagents and a chemist. It now has a few clothes shops, shoes shops, hairdressers, a sports shop, a few different cafes and the usual fast food places. Now can someone please explain how it's not feasible that a shopping centre in Ferrybank wouldn't have a similar footfall as the shopping centre in Citywest. The only difference is Citywest was being built up around the shopping centre, the residential area is already there for miles around the shopping centre in Ferrybank.

robtri

dayshah wrote: »

If anyone thinks people are against this just because its in KK read the TK Maxx thread. The same arguments appear there, and TK Maxx was never in Kilkenny.



If all shopping (apart from groceries and heavy stuff) is concentrated in the city centre people are far more likely to say 'will I meet you in town for lunch, I have to pick something up anyway'. This just does not happen to the same extent in out of town shopping.

We need to maintain a range of shops in the city centre.

Retail is contracting, the VAT increase will make this worse. This won't create new business, it will suck jobs from the city centre and spit out a few of those jobs in Ferrybank.

out of curiousity why?? why do we HAVE to maintain a range of shops in the city centre???

surely the city centre needs to step up its game if it wants to maintain its jobs.... most of the shops in the city centre look like ****e are poorly maintained and outdated looking....

daenerysstormborn3

dayshah wrote: »

Who has objected to a Dunnes/Tesco? The Ferrybank Centre is WAY more than just a Tesco.

They can put in a Tesco, laundrette, and indoor go kart/adventure centre for the rest of the empty space.

The general consensus on this thread (and the few others in this forum) is that the shopping centre shouldn't be used at all purely because it will take jobs away from the city centre. It is all or nothing. It either has to be full to the brim with brilliant shops and booming business or left idle.

I would prefer to see a library there along with a range of shops. In fact wasn't there an announcement this morning about €780,000 being given towards a permanent library in Ferrybank?

Suryavarman

Maybe if it wasn't such a nightmare to get planning permission in Waterford then the proposed New Street shopping centre could have been built. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Ferrybank's shopping centre destroying the city centre. Maybe instead of b*tching about Ferrybank the City Council could make development a bit easier and lower business rates.

daenerysstormborn3

robtri wrote: »

out of curiousity why?? why do we HAVE to maintain a range of shops in the city centre???

surely the city centre needs to step up its game if it wants to maintain its jobs.... most of the shops in the city centre look like ****e are poorly maintained and outdated looking....

I agree with part of your statement. I do think the majority of the shops in town maintain a very poor appearance, I'm not just referring to the Shaws shop front.

I also think that shops in the centre need to up their game with regard to opening hours on weekends, especially Sundays. The Book Centre opens so late on a Sunday that they don't even sell Sunday papers and there are very few newsagents around the town aside from The Book Centre. I have often heard lots of people complain about this around the town.

denis behan city legend

dayshah wrote: »

Reading through this I think most people in Ferrybank want a Dunnes/Tescos, and a few other small things (laundrette etc) just like out by Ardkeen Stores; and I don't think anyone would begrudge them that. But if a full blown shopping mall takes off it will seriously damage the city centre.

I strongly doubt it will be viable in the long term, but it will drain enough life from the city centre to do Waterford harm.

In the end the shopping centre will close down (as it won't cover its running costs), but the damage to the city centre will have been done.

Hi,

Thanks for not begrudging us north city dwellers a shopping centre. I'm sure you didn't mean that to sound patronising and condescending but that's the way it comes accross. Remember we're part of the city as well even if we are ''over the bridge''.

As for the ferrybank centre damaging the city centre, I disagree. There's precious little there worth buying to be honest. Most women I know that want to do serious shopping go anywhere else but Waterford.

Stopping this centre won't alter that reality. If this place takes off, which is a big if to be fair, wouldn't it be better that they're doing it in Ferrybank rather than Cork, Dublin, Newbridge etc?

Ferrybank is as good as it's going to get for the foreseeable future if you want to get big name shops into the city. nobody has any money to be building anywhere in the city centre and as experience has shown, there are enough people around to object to anything that gets proposed there anyway.

wellboytoo

Forget all the planning issues the local begrudgery, the KK/Wfd ****e, the elephant in the room is this beautifull buiding is not economically viable , they owe too much and will not get the required rents they projected to pay back what they owe.
Look whats been happening all around you for the last four years ! why should Ferrybank be any different, if they get to open the doors I will be gobsmacked, how long they stay open after that ??????
Not very is the answer, and then we will have a big set to with the banks and a 65% write off of debts, and then if it has not been vandalsed in the meantime some one will open it again, maybe with a chance, but I doubt it, the footfall is not there .

denis behan city legend

wellboytoo wrote: »

Forget all the planning issues the local begrudgery, the KK/Wfd ****e, the elephant in the room is this beautifull buiding is not economically viable , they owe too much and will not get the required rents they projected to pay back what they owe.
Look whats been happening all around you for the last four years ! why should Ferrybank be any different, if they get to open the doors I will be gobsmacked, how long they stay open after that ??????
Not very is the answer, and then we will have a big set to with the banks and a 65% write off of debts, and then if it has not been vandalsed in the meantime some one will open it again, maybe with a chance, but I doubt it, the footfall is not there .

You could well be right, still, none of us know what deal that the owners have done with their banks or NAMA or what kind of shops they have lined up apart from Dunnes (?).

decies

If they build it they might come !! All depends on what goes in it . If they get a major book store , major jewellery outlet, major record store , good selection of clothes shops, well then it will do serious damage to city centre. Let's be honest it wouldn't take much to rival city square which IMHO has dated badly . Waterford people will still travel near and far. Interesting to hear doc fitz on wireless last week , saying good Xmas last year in wintry conditions ,as people couldn't travel elsewhere to shop!!

fricatus

Suryavarman wrote: »

Maybe if it wasn't such a nightmare to get planning permission in Waterford then the proposed New Street shopping centre could have been built. Then we wouldn't have to worry about Ferrybank's shopping centre destroying the city centre. Maybe instead of b*tching about Ferrybank the City Council could make development a bit easier and lower business rates.

In fairness to the City Council, they approved the Newgate Centre without undue delay, but it was objected to, and appealed to An Bord Pleanála by Brendan McCann. He didn't object to the Ferrybank centre as far as I know, so I don't think you can blame the City Council on that one.

While you're right in general about rates crippling businesses, I would have assumed that anybody setting up in Ferrybank would have to pay broadly similar rates as they would in the city centre. Are the rates charged by WCC significantly higher (or indeed lower) than those charged by KK County Council?

puppetmaster

fricatus wrote: »

While you're right in general about rates crippling businesses, I would have assumed that anybody setting up in Ferrybank would have to pay broadly similar rates as they would in the city centre. Are the rates charged by WCC significantly higher (or indeed lower) than those charged by KK County Council?

There seems to be some cross over issue with planning, But is that shopping center not in Waterford city's environs? meaning WCC would be charging the rates on it ??

This is a simple question regarding clarifying the city boundry of the shopping center and not intended to start an argument of whether Shefflin or McGrath can eat more spuds durin their dinner....

Paddy@CIRL

puppetmaster wrote: »

There seems to be some cross over issue with planning, But is that shopping center not in Waterford city's environs? meaning WCC would be charging the rates on it ??

This is a simple question regarding clarifying the city boundry of the shopping center and not intended to start an argument of whether Shefflin or McGrath can eat more spuds durin their dinner....

Rates will go to Kilkenny CoCo.

TBH, the whole issue of FSC doing damage to the city centre is a moot point. Waterford City Council need to concentrate on trying to improve the city instead of looking to blame their problems on everything else. With or without the FSC, the city centre is on a course to ruin within the next couple of years regardless.

dunphy3

wellboytoo wrote: »

A joint retail strategy .....wtf Waterford City Council and Waterford Chamber of Commerce objected to KK council on its scale etc and were ignored by KK council, now they want them on board???
I hope KK council are spending all the rates they are getting for this wonderful facility wisely.
Maybe they should turn part of it into a new secondary school that is far more likely to get the doors open.

big phil hogan has officaly opened the center,front page rep in the munster,9dec 2011???????? how many more opening will they be,two three more??????.

calvin_zola

amazed all that copper stayed on the outer face of that building without being swiped

fricatus

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Waterford City Council need to concentrate on trying to improve the city instead of looking to blame their problems on everything else.

Yeah, but it all ties in together in an overall plan for tourism, retail, etc. What use all the improvement works in the world (and WCC have been doing plenty, particularly down around the Malll and Bishop's Palace), when a neighbouring local authority can just allow a big shopping centre to be slapped right on the outskirts of the city, without contributing a penny to the city's upkeep in rates?

And before anyone levels this anti-KK accusation again, Waterford County Council did the same by allowing the big business park where Harvey Norman is. The rates there get spent in the county, and you can be sure that that's more likely to mean Dungarvan rather than Tramore or Kilmeaden...

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

With or without the FSC, the city centre is on a course to ruin within the next couple of years regardless.

What, so WCC should just give up trying?

denis behan city legend

fricatus wrote: »

Yeah, but it all ties in together in an overall plan for tourism, retail, etc. What use all the improvement works in the world (and WCC have been doing plenty, particularly down around the Malll and Bishop's Palace), when a neighbouring local authority can just allow a big shopping centre to be slapped right on the outskirts of the city, without contributing a penny to the city's upkeep in rates?

And before anyone levels this anti-KK accusation again, Waterford County Council did the same by allowing the big business park where Harvey Norman is. The rates there get spent in the county, and you can be sure that that's more likely to mean Dungarvan rather than Tramore or Kilmeaden...




What, so WCC should just give up trying?

In fairness, I think we'd all agree (regardless of what side of the fence you're on) that the fact these places are there (Butlerstown Retail Park and the Ferrybank SC) and the fact that the city gets no money is a bit of a joke.

Having said that, it's gonna open soon so hopefully people can make the best of it and try and use it as an opportunity.

Paddy@CIRL

What, so WCC should just give up trying?

Apologies, I should have elaborated on that - If things continue as they are, they may as well give up because they're going to run the city into the ground. They need to make big changes to turn things around and I don't have a whole lot of faith in them to do so ...

sunnysoutheast

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Apologies, I should have elaborated on that - If things continue as they are, they may as well give up because they're going to run the city into the ground. They need to make big changes to turn things around and I don't have a whole lot of faith in them to do so ...

What would you have them do?

For me the City Council haven't really put a foot wrong with the regeneration of the area around the Bishop's Palace in particular.

People should always remember that it's our local serial objector who has often stifled development in the city, not the council. Why, as a green activist, he doesn't object to car-dependent developments on the city boundaries is a mystery to me.

SSE

thomasm

From this weeks Munster. Does that sound like Dunnes are going in..

Dunnes Stores has disputed an arbitrator’s instruction for the retailer to pay almost €20 million to a construction company in relation to the long-awaited Ferrybank Shopping Centre.

The €100 million, mixed-use centre was originally scheduled to open for business in September, 2008. However, the opening did not go ahead because of differences between the development company and Dunnes.

In court on Monday, Holtglen Ltd sought to fast-track the hearing of the Dunnes’ challenge and also indicated it intends to bring its own proceedings for an order enforcing the arbitrator’s award.