Ferrybank Shopping Centre - Again

Junior

Nypd wrote: »

Watch this space as they say,
There has to be huge pressure on KK county council to get it open, between there and the site in abbey lands there is a serious amount of retail sitting idle.
What were they thinking !!

It was a stroke of evil genuis by KCC, first of all they didn't really want any out of town developments near their own place so lets test the waters by f*cking up Waterford with this one, and hey if it all goes tits up let WCC extend the boundary and they've got that hole to look after and think about.

Royal Legend

Anymore on what might happen with the Ferrybank SC?

Also people talk about Ferrybank and the idle one in Abbeypark, but what about the other idle one built by Flynns and belonging to Frisby I think on the Inner ring road by the Six Cross roads???

fricatus

Royal Legend wrote: »

Also people talk about Ferrybank and the idle one in Abbeypark, but what about the other idle one built by Flynns and belonging to Frisby I think on the Inner ring road by the Six Cross roads???

It's not even in the same league. It's just a car park with a bunch of units around it. It would be smaller than the one where Harvey Norman is. I was in there about a year back when Lidl set up a temporary stock-clearance shop. Pity, as it's quite a nice setup in there.

Odats

Royal Legend wrote: »

Anymore on what might happen with the Ferrybank SC?

Also people talk about Ferrybank and the idle one in Abbeypark, but what about the other idle one built by Flynns and belonging to Frisby I think on the Inner ring road by the Six Cross roads???

AFAIK Frisby has nothing to do with this one at all. He's a cute hoor where property is concerned. One of the few that didn't get burnt after the boom.

wellboytoo

fricatus wrote: »

It's not even in the same league. It's just a car park with a bunch of units around it. It would be smaller than the one where Harvey Norman is. I was in there about a year back when Lidl set up a temporary stock-clearance shop. Pity, as it's quite a nice setup in there.

Musgrave cash and carry moving into it in August, taken half of it.

Nypd

wellboytoo wrote: »

Musgrave cash and carry moving into it in August, taken half of it.

Good to see it if it happens.

Dicky Pride

wellboytoo wrote: »

Musgrave cash and carry moving into it in August, taken half of it.

This obviously wasn't true so?

Are they ever going to open that library?

Bards

Dicky Pride wrote: »

This obviously wasn't true so?

Are they ever going to open that library?

Musgraves moved into the Retail Park (Developed by David Flynn) on the ORR last month - someone got their S.C's mixed-up

Dicky Pride

Any word on the library?

shockwave

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Any word on the library?

You can see all the books and bookshelves from the road so it must be close to opening now.

thomasm

Dicky Pride wrote: »

Any word on the library?

http://www.facebook.com/#!/FerrybankLibraryInformation?fref=ts

According to this update from Mon 22nd Oct its soon

New library at Ferrybank to open within weeks #Waterford
A new state of the art library is to open in Ferrybank within weeks. The building will cover over 300 square meters and is located at the site of the un-opened Ferrybank Shopping Centre. The facility will include a teen zone, children's services, and IT and study area along with access to WIFI.

dunphy3

abouttobebanned wrote: »

So it's official: It's never going to open.

kilkenny libery and comunity office opening on the 6 dec.

RobitTV

Can't believe after all the Funds invested in this building and it's now fully completed and ready for use for a while now and after the stories in the papers saying its going to open with shops. No progress has been made at all and it's been ready for years.

A fully completed structure with nothing inside somebody is to blame for this in my opinion I know the situation with dunnes stores and that. But it's shocking for not one shop to open.

The size of it aswell it could of been a good shopping area in my opinion.

Dicky Pride

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1123/breaking46.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

A company has brought a petition to wind up retail giant Dunnes Stores over its failure to pay some €21.6 million due under a court judgment issued over an unpaid debt for building works.

Dunnes employs about 18,000 people in stores nationwide and the case is listed before the Commercial Court on Monday.

Holtglen Ltd, which built a shopping centre in Kilkenny in which Dunnes agreed to be the anchor tenant, has brought the petition following Dunnes' failure to pay after being ordered to do so by Mr Justice Peter Kelly in a summary judgment order issued last March.

The Ferrybank shopping centre was completed in 2009 but Holtglen later became insolvent and its Bank of Ireland loans were transferred to National Assets Management Ltd (NALM), a company of the National Assets Management Agency (Nama).

It is understood Nama wrote to Dunnes on October 30th last warning, unless Dunnes paid some €21.6 million (the €20.4 million judgment sum plus interest) within seven days, Holtglen would proceed to publish a petition to wind up Dunnes on grounds it is unable to pay its debts and/or it is just and equitable that it be wound up.

Holtglen claims there is no justification for Dunnes not paying the sum due.

Last March, Mr Justice Kelly granted summary judgment for some €20.4 million to Holtglen against Dunnes after he dismissed Dunnes' application to set aside an arbitrator's award for €20.2 million to Holtglen arising from an agreement to build the centre.

Holtglen claims, despite the summary judgment order, Dunnes has still not paid and now owes it some €21.6 million. Last September, it served a notice under Section 214 of the Companies Act on Dunnes.

Section 214 provides, where judgment has been obtained against a limited company, a notice can be issued threatening to wind up that company. If the debt is not paid within 21 days, a petition can be presented to the court seeking to have the company wound up.

On November 9th last, a petition was issued and the matter is due before the Commercial Court on Monday.

Previously, the Commercial Court heard Dunnes had instituted arbitration proceedings claiming breaches of a development agreement by Holtglen which in turn counterclaimed for payment. Holtglen claimed it was then entitled to stage payments due under the development agreement, plus other sums for which it had counterclaimed.

It said it has very large borrowings in connection with the Ferrybank development and it was "of the utmost importance" it was paid by Dunnes as soon as possible. Holtglen later became insolvent.

In October 2011, the arbitrator, while upholding some of Dunnes complaints of breaches of the development agreement, found Holtglen had remedied those matters and Dunnes was not entitled to terminate the development agreement.

Dunnes applied to the Commercial Court to set aside the arbitrator's findings. It argued, as Holtglen was insolvent, it was precluded from claiming the money due. During the hearing, the court was told Holtglen's loans to Bank of Ireland had been transferred to a NAMA company, NALM.

In his judgment, Mr Justice Kelly said the transfer meant NAMA had stepped into the shoes of Holtglen and its insolvency was now an irrelevance. It also meant any concerns Dunnes might have in relation to future obligations not being honoured had evaporated, he said.

The judge found the arbitrator had not erred in law in the approach taken by him to construction of the agreement between Dunnes and Holtglen.

Despite the fact the shopping centre was completed in 2009, Dunnes had only paid "a fraction" of the money due for the work, he said.

The logical outcome of Dunnes argument was a "wholly unattractive" result from the point of view of business commonsense or commercial reality, he added.

The judge granted Holtglen summary judgment for the €20.2m after rejecting Dunnes' application for an adjournment to allow it consider his ruling.

He also refused to grant a full stay on his decision pending the outcome of any appeal to the Supreme Court which, the judge said, could mean another three years of Holtglen being deprived of its entitlement. It is understood Dunnes has not appealed that ruling.

Dicky Pride

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1126/dunnes-winding-up-order-to-be-heard-next-month.html

An application to wind-up Dunnes Stores will be heard before the Commercial Court next month.
The petition was brought by the builders of a Kilkenny shopping centre over an unpaid debt of €21 million.
The debt is the subject of a High Court order made last March.
Insolvent construction company Holtglen brought the winding up petition under the Companies Act after Dunnes failed to pay and "gave no reason or excuse", the High Court was told.
Holtglen's loans are now with NAMA and the court heard Dunnes had been seeking to engage with NAMA on the issue.
Lawyers for Dunnes Stores said the company was "robustly solvent" but had not paid the debt amid concerns about the Ferrybank Shopping Centre in terms of its viability and planning issues.
Senior Counsel Brian O’Moore said Dunnes appeared to have been "stampeded" into the centre as the anchor tenant while the centre was developed and would be run by an insolvent company.
He said there had been correspondence between Dunnes executive Margaret Heffernan and the chairman of NAMA Frank Daly.
In one letter, Ms Heffernan told Mr Daly it did not make sense for NAMA to seek the winding up of Dunnes Stores.
Counsel for Holtglen said the issues raised by Dunnes about the shopping centre were "entirely separate" and that the order of the High Court last March was final and binding.
Mr Justice Peter Kelly said he found claims about being stampeded into the centre extraordinary as there had been an arbitration process, followed by a High Court order which was not appealed to the Supreme Court.
The judge said there was a High Court order which has to be complied with and Dunnes was no different to any other litigant. "If it owes it must pay. It cannot prevaricate", he said.
A failure to comply with the statutory demand for payment meant the company was deemed unable to pay its debts, he said.
From his reading of the correspondence it appeared NAMA was saying to Dunnes "pay your debt and we can talk to our hearts content", the judge said.
The judge agreed to transfer the case to the fast track commercial court list because of the significance of the case for the 18,000 employees whose position would be in jeopardy if a winding-up order was to be granted, he said.
The case will be heard on 14 December.

This is pretty massive. Obviously they won't be wound down, but surely they'll be forced to cough up?! Either way it looks like Ferrybank Shopping Centre with be the world's strangest Library for the forseeable future.

mike65

on rte radio now

gman2k

Dunnes, the difference is, we're Irish....

wellboytoo

Dunnes will eventually have to cough up,the money will disappear into the black hole that is IBRC,and we will still have a white elephant on our door thanks to the greed and stupidity of a developer a bank and an idiotic planning dept.who would not listen.

To make amends they should gift it to WIT as their Kilkenny campus.

Sully

wellboytoo wrote: »

Dunnes will eventually have to cough up,the money will disappear into the black hole that is IBRC,and we will still have a white elephant on our door thanks to the greed and stupidity of a developer a bank and an idiotic planning dept.who would not listen.

To make amends they should gift it to WIT as their Kilkenny campus.

Its an example that should be pointed out to people who insist we should develop anything and everything for the sake of development and jobs. This is a major development that was argued would create jobs - but it failed and is sitting there with a library only.

SubBusted

Why would people travel over the bridge to go shopping when they won't even visit the city centre anymore?

Hoffmans

wellboytoo wrote: »

Dunnes will eventually have to cough up,the money will disappear into the black hole that is IBRC,and we will still have a white elephant on our door thanks to the greed and stupidity of a developer a bank and an idiotic planning dept.who would not listen.

To make amends they should gift it to WIT as their Kilkenny campus.

it would make a good research centre for wit sure couldnt nama or whoever has it let them in at a knockdown price...

thomasm

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/dunnes-boss-clashes-with-nama-over-its-court-bid-for-216m-3307984.html


Why do Dunnes think they can just not pay this debt. The agreed to move in and be anchor tenant. They pulled out, as they also did with one up in the docklands in Dublin which is subject to another court case and the shopping center was effectively made obsolete because of their decision. Just because it's going to IRBC doesn't mean its not a valid debt.



I recall a petition being done a few years back and a couple of thousand people said it would be where they did there weekly shop if it was open.



I also recall Dunnes bid a stupid amount for the privilege of being anchor tenant purely to stop Tesco who also wanted it at the time.

---

DUNNES Stores chief Margaret Heffernan has clashed with NAMA over a bid to wind up the company. She says NAMA will be held responsible for the "very significant losses" her company will "inevitably" experience if a petition is pursued to wind up the retail giant over non-payment of some €21.6m for a shopping centre development in Kilkenny, where Dunnes had agreed to be the anchor tenant.
The petition has been fixed for hearing on December 14 in the Commercial Court.
Dunnes, employer of 18,000 people, is "robustly solvent" but unwilling to pay the money to the shopping centre developers Holtglen Ltd which is insolvent and its loans gone into NAMA, Dunnes counsel Brian O'Moore SC told the court yesterday.
There were a number of grounds for this, counsel said, including the viability of the centre at Ferrybank, Kilkenny.
In strongly worded letters to NAMA chief executive Brendan McDonagh, Mrs Heffernan described the Ferrybank centre as "an unmitigated disaster" and the winding up petition as "an abuse of process".
It could not be NAMA's belief Dunnes was insolvent or that any petition to wind up Dunnes on grounds of insolvency was justified, she said.
Mrs Heffernan said the mere presentation of the petition would damage Dunnes and Ireland as a whole and advertising the petition would simply exacerbate that harm.
Pressing the court to appoint a liquidator to Dunnes was "an extraordinary step" for anybody, particularly a public agency, to take, she added.
Mrs Heffernan also accused NAMA of failing to address any of the "substantial" issues raised by Dunnes concerning the centre and said a report prepared by a planning consultant for Dunnes expressed the view the centre was not compliant with planning permission.
Dunnes employs 18,000 people, contributes very large amounts to the State's coffers via tax payments and continues to be one of the best known and successful Irish companies, she said.
In replying letters, Mr McDonagh insisted Dunnes must pay the €21.6m to Holtglen before NAMA will engage in any talks about the operation of the Ferrybank development. The fundamental issue was the "persistent refusal" by Dunnes to pay, he said.
Reputation
NAMA chairman Frank Daly told Mrs Heffernan in letters he did not agree the centre was not commercially viable. Dunnes' failure as anchor tenant to fit out and open its anchor store had adversely affected the reputation of the centre and of Holtglen, he said.
Because Dunnes had refused to pay Holtglen – despite an arbitrator's award of October 2011 and a court judgment last March – NAMA was left with no option but to take the legal route, Mr Daly told Mrs Heffernan.
He was disappointed there were no "meaningful proposals" from Dunnes.
In a letter of October 11, Mr Daly told Mrs Heffernan he had phoned her personally on June 28 following the last meeting between Dunnes and NAMA on the matter "and you did not return my call".
The case arose after NAMA wrote to Dunnes on October 30 warning, unless Dunnes paid €21.6m to Holtglen within seven days, it (Holtglen) would make the wind-up petition on grounds it was unable to pay its debts and/or that it was just and equitable that it be wound up.
Yesterday, seeking to have the petition fast-tracked in the Commercial Court, Maurice Collins SC, for Holtglen, said Dunnes had deliberately decided not to pay – despite asserting it had capacity to pay.
Concerns in relation to planning were "just thought up" and issues about the centre's viability were not relevant and subject of separate proceedings, he added.
Mr Justice Peter Kelly agreed to transfer the petition to the fast-track Commercial Court.
In a situation where Dunnes had not appealed his judgment last March enforcing an arbitrator's award to Holtglen against Dunnes, it was difficult to see how the retailer has a defence to payment, he said. He was not determining the issues, he stressed.
Last March, Mr Justice Kelly granted summary judgment for €20.4m to Holtglen against Dunnes after upholding an arbitrator's award to Holtglen arising from a 2007 agreement to build the centre for €37m

Dum_Dum

Hoffmans wrote: »

it would make a good research centre for wit sure couldnt nama or whoever has it let them in at a knockdown price...

That's not what NAMA is for. NAMA is designed to keep property prices elevated. The last thing they will do is give anything away. In fact, it's in their interest to do the opposite; keep scarcity of supply. If the property a loan is secured against loses value - then so does the loan. In an effort to prevent loans turning to junk NAMA was created. Conclusion: NAMA only benefits lenders.

hardybuck

Dum_Dum wrote: »

That's not what NAMA is for. NAMA is designed to keep property prices elevated. The last thing they will do is give anything away. In fact, it's in their interest to do the opposite; keep scarcity of supply. If the property a loan is secured against loses value - then so does the loan. In an effort to prevent loans turning to junk NAMA was created. Conclusion: NAMA only benefits lenders.

Well, the lenders, or financial institutions, sold the loans to NAMA at a considerable loss. The Irish people are large shareholders in the financial institutions and NAMA are a State Agency. So, there are a lot of different interests at play there all mixed in together, unfair to say the benefits are only to lenders etc.

Without wanting to go into a big debate regarding the pros and cons of NAMA, it is in society's interest that property prices do not collapse completely.

NAMA will play a role in ensuring that this won't happen, although they face a balancing act in doing so. Essentially they are interested in maximising the return on the investment, i.e. what the State has paid for the loan.

Dum_Dum

hardybuck wrote: »

Without wanting to go into a big debate regarding the pros and cons of NAMA, it is in society's interest that property prices do not collapse completely.

You'll need to explain to me the disadvantages of cheap property. I don't understand why a large mortgage is preferable to a small one. Why is this mantra so prevalent? And why do you espouse it?

hardybuck

Dum_Dum wrote: »

You'll need to explain to me the disadvantages of cheap property. I don't understand why a large mortgage is preferable to a small one. Why is this mantra so prevalent? And why do you espouse it?

Well if you have a mortgage, which a significant proportion of the population do, you're stuck with that level of borrowing for a defined period of time. If the value of your asset, the home, drops to a small fraction of it's original worth which you borrowed for, then you'll be in a very dire financial situation. This is negative equity - where the value of your assets do not match the value of your borrowings. While most people who bought homes in the last 10 years have a certain amount of negative equity, a large amount of it would cripple you.

For new entrants to the market, it's not an issue. You are hoping for a prolonged property slump.

The damage to the wider economy caused by a complete property collapse would devestating - much worse than what we've seen already. The resulting effects to society as a whole would be catastophic.

At the moment, it is possible to buy a house for less than the cost that it might take to build it. This isn't sustainable.

Secondly, as I've mentioned NAMA is a State owned entity. That means you and I have a stake in it. They've already bought these loans from the banks, and are attempting to maximise the return on these loans on behalf of the State.

Bards

hardybuck wrote: »

Well if you have a mortgage, which a significant proportion of the population do, you're stuck with that level of borrowing for a defined period of time. If the value of your asset, the home, drops to a small fraction of it's original worth which you borrowed for, then you'll be in a very dire financial situation. This is negative equity - where the value of your assets do not match the value of your borrowings. While most people who bought homes in the last 10 years have a certain amount of negative equity, a large amount of it would cripple you.

For new entrants to the market, it's not an issue. You are hoping for a prolonged property slump.

The damage to the wider economy caused by a complete property collapse would devestating - much worse than what we've seen already. The resulting effects to society as a whole would be catastophic.

At the moment, it is possible to buy a house for less than the cost that it might take to build it. This isn't sustainable.

Secondly, as I've mentioned NAMA is a State owned entity. That means you and I have a stake in it. They've already bought these loans from the banks, and are attempting to maximise the return on these loans on behalf of the State.

I'm sorry but this is total bull,

FOr the majority of people, as long as you can afford to keep up mortgage repayments and have no intention to sell it doesn't matter a damn what the property is currently worth. It is a family home not an investment.

The Cheaper the mortgage for new entrants all the better as they will have more disposable income to spend in "The Real" economy.

Cheaper Property=Cheraper Mortgages=Cheaper Life Assurances=Cheaper House Insurance = Better for Long Term health of the Economy.

Standard House prices should never be more then 3.5 times the standard industrial wage.

wellboytoo

In fairness to Hardybuck I think he was refering to commercial property and the potential Nama have to totaly deflate the commercial market if they dump prperty on the market regardless of price.

hardybuck

wellboytoo wrote: »

In fairness to Hardybuck I think he was refering to commercial property and the potential Nama have to totaly deflate the commercial market if they dump prperty on the market regardless of price.

Yeah, and again this current discussion is really focused on a commercial dispute, which we probably shouldn't be talking too much about.

Stepping back from NAMA v Dunnes Stores, I'll just say that I believe that NAMA are correct to pursue commercial entities for monies owed and leave it at that.

Finnbar01

wellboytoo wrote: »

In fairness to Hardybuck I think he was refering to commercial property and the potential Nama have to totaly deflate the commercial market if they dump prperty on the market regardless of price.

And that is exactly what they should do. Dump the properties and sell them for what they're worth.

Let the market dictate the price.