Freeze on cuts after Croke Park accord

Degsy

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol, we'll see Degsy. You're living in cloud nine if you think Corporation tax will be raised.

Well you know the "deal" we got on lower interest repayments?

Thats conditional on raising corporation tax..we never had a choice..just wait and see!

Furthemore any company who might want to remain here for whatever reason will recoup the difference by lowering wages...its all very simple..the public sector have had thier pay cut and now its the private sector's turn to feel some pain.

Lumbo

Degsy wrote: »

Furthemore any company who might want to remain here for whatever reason will recoup the difference by lowering wages...its all very simple..the public sector have had thier pay cut and now its the private sector's turn to feel some pain.

There's 300,000 people on the scratch who worked all the way through the Celtic tiger. I think most of them are feeling the pain more then we are. I don't buy into the "I'm lucky to have a job" bull****. But I'd rather a few pay cuts then no job at all.

Chucky the tree

Degsy wrote: »

Well you know the "deal" we got on lower interest repayments?

Thats conditional on raising corporation tax..we never had a choice..just wait and see!

Furthemore any company who might want to remain here for whatever reason will recoup the difference by lowering wages...its all very simple..the public sector have had thier pay cut and now its the private sector's turn to feel some pain.

Oh the delusion is strong in you Degsy. I guess we'll just have to wait and see about the Corporation tax anyway.

Degsy

Lumbo wrote: »

There's 300,000 people on the scratch who worked all the way through the Celtic tiger. I think most of them are feeling the pain more then we are. .

You see the "Celtic Tiger" was a chimera..it was a time when cash in hand went cheek by jowl with corruption,inflated prices and unrealistic uses of credit.


Why didnt people make provision for any potential downturn?

Because it wasnt a popular idea..they lost the run of themselves and blew thier leveraged money on plasma screen TVs,"investment properties" in Bulgaria and poxy jeeps they used to bring the kids 100 yards down the road.

Working in the Public Sector was seen as a mug's game with no chance to work off the books or make a decent few bob to squander..should we feel guity because we didnt buy the whole "my kitchen is bigger than yours" bullshiit?

nursextreme

Degsy wrote: »

You wanna save money? Cut the bloody dole so its no longer a lifestyle choice for thousands of people..let working people keep thier wages.

The dole is not a lifestyle choice for professionals excluded from work due to the recruitment embargo while retired staff and managers working overtime cover frontline positions facilitated by the Croke Park Agreement. Cut the crap and the dole will sort itself out!

bamboozle

waster81 wrote: »

It was private sector workers that landed us in the sceanrio we are faced with

1. Private sector bankers pushing for increased de regulation
2. Private sector bankers lending out money without looking for relevant paper work
3. Private sector auditors who signed off on the accounts
4. Private sector property developers who pushed up price of development land
5. Private sector employees who were paid huge bonuses etc for short term "profits" they "made"
6. Private sector employees who now whinge and moan about their stupidity not to enter the public service
7. Private sector voters who kept voting in successive governments because they agreed with the tax policies etc
8 Private sector who have ensured through their idiocy that there are nor over 450000 on the register

yawn, by any chance have you heard of Patrick Neary? he was handsomely paid to perform the role as financial regulator. he took the money and fell asleep at the wheel leaving the banks to do as they pleased despite all the evidence being on his desk in the form of quarterly reports for him to realise all that was going on.

Neary & Ahern both public servants played the biggest roles in this countries downfall.

bamboozle

nursextreme wrote: »

The dole is not a lifestyle choice for professionals excluded from work due to the recruitment embargo while retired staff and managers working overtime cover frontline positions facilitated by the Croke Park Agreement. Cut the crap and the dole will sort itself out!

do you actually think we need more people working in the public service???? is 16.5 billions spent a year not enough????

perhaps the thousands of 'admin' staff working in the HSE, many pointless quango and other state departments who are doing SFA could be reallocated to areas where additional staff is needed or encourage to take early retirement, God forbid the unions actually saw the logic of something like this, but then again would these staff actually want to be switched somewhere where they'd have to do a bit of work?

fliball123

The_Thing wrote: »

I have to say that as far as I'm concerned this is absolutely fantastic news and is one more well deserved kick up the arse for all the 'experts' who seem to spend their days on Boards.ie bashing the Public-Sector.

Please God the next thing will be a reversal of the paycuts.



I take it this massive session of yours won't be going ahead in September as planned?

Yeah this is the same gov that said they were not closing A/Es in Rosscommon..Lets see how the numbrs stack up in September when the IMF are looking at the books not what they are being told...

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

This is based on nothing more or less than pure spite..usually from lazy,dole-scroungers who'll never amount to anything.

The fact that somebody refered to a "massive session" to celebrate somebody else taking a paycut is proof of the level of immaturity...its also proof that the dole pays far too much if people can afford to spend it on alcohol.

Well lets clear that up...I said that last year on a different thread and to take one line out of a post and take it out of context you would have to read some of the sh1t that some PS were coming out with..Actually just read some of the sh1t on here...So stop dole bashing as I work

fliball123

WalterMitty wrote: »

I can guarantee you will have big cut within 3-5 years degsy. Enjoy. nite nite.

I honesetly cannot believe that the ps think they will not be hit again..Some are looking for the paycuts to be reversed...Are these people living in the current Ireland??? We are about a year behind Greece..No cuts to the public sector till they defaulted..Can anyone see us recovering...Does anyone here even with the interest rate cuts think we can pay back the money we owe plus close 18 billion without cutting the PS pay/pensions.

And just to another ps poster who thinks there wage will not be touched as the gov said they wouldnt

They also said that they wouldnt increase income tax (which they will)
They said they would not cut the social welfare (which they will)

So you are in good company..No tax increase and no cuts.....REALLY ???

fliball123

The_Thing wrote: »

What has the above got to do with no pay cuts for public-sector workers?

Well for one..If I was a union rep I would be trying to keep as much money in the coffers as I reckon by the end of 2012 there will be a public sector strike

jessiejam

Lumbo wrote: »

There's 300,000 people on the scratch who worked all the way through the Celtic tiger. I think most of them are feeling the pain more then we are. I don't buy into the "I'm lucky to have a job" bull****. But I'd rather a few pay cuts then no job at all.

True... some of whom worked at the same time as signing on, another contribution to the state of the economy.

It's not fair to continue to bash the public sector all of the time, knowing damn well there were, and still are, other factors that have contributed to the debt crisis. The PS has taken huge hits in the last few years and I am talking about the lower paid ones and am not talking about the HSE - (dont know anything about it really so unfair to comment good or bad).

Its usually some of the private sector workers that had the 2 cars in the drive, jeeps usually, the holiday home in bulgaria and multiple vacations that are now on here moaning, because they can no longer maintain that lifestyle for whatever reason and are looking for someone to blame... anyone acutally..... but usually the public sector because they don't want to blame themselves for being greedy and stupid over the years. None of my buddys had those kind of luxuries. They were laughed at for joining the PS in the first place, low wages, pen pushers etc..... ehhhh....doh!:P

I for one never had a big car just a run around to get me to the 120km round trip to work. I never had multiple trips abroad, most years i didn't go on any hols. Nor did I have a credit card or multiple loans. And all this time the bank was ringing my house telling me how i had been "pre-approved" for €€€€€€€ and all i had to do was sign...... :rolleyes:.... hindsight and all that!

But I saved what I could manage just in case. Maybe other people should have done the same.

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

Well you know the "deal" we got on lower interest repayments?

Thats conditional on raising corporation tax..we never had a choice..just wait and see!

Furthemore any company who might want to remain here for whatever reason will recoup the difference by lowering wages...its all very simple..the public sector have had thier pay cut and now its the private sector's turn to feel some pain.

Sorry there was no concession for the lower interrest rates..The aggreement was the our government looked at Euro Tax harmonisation...Which could take 4 years to look at and at the end of it..all the gov has to say is sorry but thats not for us

So you feel that the private sector are not feeling pain...What about the 500k odd that were private sector who are now on the dole???

And yes the ps have had a 7% pay cut and they need another cut to bring them down to were we need them to be. Look Degsy I know another cut is a kick in the hole ... But we all have to take some of this..The people on the dole will have to take a cut...The private sector wages, numbers and hours are down as evident by our income tax take been down in successive years despite increasing our income tax..But people will be hit again...Dont take any post personal ...People are fighting their own corner and its only natural for you to do the same..But I will fight mine and people on the dole will fight theres

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

You see the "Celtic Tiger" was a chimera..it was a time when cash in hand went cheek by jowl with corruption,inflated prices and unrealistic uses of credit.


Why didnt people make provision for any potential downturn?

Because it wasnt a popular idea..they lost the run of themselves and blew thier leveraged money on plasma screen TVs,"investment properties" in Bulgaria and poxy jeeps they used to bring the kids 100 yards down the road.

Working in the Public Sector was seen as a mug's game with no chance to work off the books or make a decent few bob to squander..should we feel guity because we didnt buy the whole "my kitchen is bigger than yours" bullshiit?

Sorry have you heard the bleeding heart guards, nurses and teachers who were crying saying they could no longer afford their holiday homes in bulgaria as thier wage was being cut...Remember the PS partied in the boom aswell with benchmarking, Increments for basically not dieing which seems to be the only criteria(still going on) and of course the ridiculous perks...Such as half an hour for one cashing a non existing cheque??? this non existant cheque is like your mindset there Degsy, imaginary

fliball123

jessiejam wrote: »

True... some of whom worked at the same time as signing on, another contribution to the state of the economy.

It's not fair to continue to bash the public sector all of the time, knowing damn well there were, and still are, other factors that have contributed to the debt crisis. The PS has taken huge hits in the last few years and I am talking about the lower paid ones and am not talking about the HSE - (dont know anything about it really so unfair to comment good or bad).

Its usually some of the private sector workers that had the 2 cars in the drive, jeeps usually, the holiday home in bulgaria and multiple vacations that are now on here moaning, because they can no longer maintain that lifestyle for whatever reason and are looking for someone to blame... anyone acutally..... but usually the public sector because they don't want to blame themselves for being greedy and stupid over the years. None of my buddys had those kind of luxuries. They were laughed at for joining the PS in the first place, low wages, pen pushers etc..... ehhhh....doh!:P

I for one never had a big car just a run around to get me to the 120km round trip to work. I never had multiple trips abroad, most years i didn't go on any hols. Nor did I have a credit card or multiple loans. And all this time the bank was ringing my house telling me how i had been "pre-approved" for €€€€€€€ and all i had to do was sign...... :rolleyes:.... hindsight and all that!

But I saved what I could manage just in case. Maybe other people should have done the same.

Why is it unfair..Until they are brought back into a size that is manageable people will continue to question where their taxes are going.

Also people here in the ps blindly refuse to look at reports from the CSO that state that on average the PS are paid more than the private sector..I have heard numerous teachers, guards going on about their 2nd homes aswell..Take a trip to any of the social welfare offices around 4ish or what ever time they finish I garentee you that the majority of the cars will be 08 and over..

So 300k want to keep their lifestyle and dont care about anyone else ... and there will be no sympathy for the lower paid in the PS as they should be kicking and screaming looking for cuts from the top down...I mean these cuts are coming...But they will row in behind the unions more out of fear I reckon....

The PS have a perception that we are all bankers?? I think the banks currently employ about 20k people (all the banks) so 20k out of 1.4 million are bankers..The rest are working for Multinationals, Farmers, Taxi men, Shop salesmen, Hairdressers the list goes on...There are estimated 750k people working within the local ecconomy and the majority of these had it hard during the Celtic Tiger and are now having it even harder..I am lucky I have a job not dependent on Ireland local economy..But for those who do its a hard world out there

jessiejam

Really

You think none of the PS workers have a partner/wife/husband that is or was a private sector employee that has been laid off or made redundant?

Surviving on one income of about €400 per week to run a home pay a mortgage and bills etc with 2 kids in tow? Partner not entitled to anything because they were self employed?

When the neighbours next door god love them were both made redundant, Given the bones of 100k in redundancy between them, but are getting the same amount on the dole, have a full medical card, 10 C car outside the door, mortgage interest supplement and household benifit package to boot.

Whats fair about that?!

bamboozle

jessiejam wrote: »

Really

You think none of the PS workers have a partner/wife/husband that is or was a private sector employee that has been laid off or made redundant?

Surviving on one income of about €400 per week to run a home pay a mortgage and bills etc with 2 kids in tow? Partner not entitled to anything because they were self employed?

When the neighbours next door god love them were both made redundant, Given the bones of 100k in redundancy between them, but are getting the same amount on the dole, have a full medical card, 10 C car outside the door, mortgage interest supplement and household benifit package to boot.

Whats fair about that?![/QUOTE]

would you like to swap situations with your neighbours?

if your answers no then you'll have to give the govt time to tidy up the mess Bertie and his ilk made of social welfare benefits in this country.

fliball123

jessiejam wrote: »

Really

You think none of the PS workers have a partner/wife/husband that is or was a private sector employee that has been laid off or made redundant?

Surviving on one income of about €400 per week to run a home pay a mortgage and bills etc with 2 kids in tow? Partner not entitled to anything because they were self employed?

When the neighbours next door god love them were both made redundant, Given the bones of 100k in redundancy between them, but are getting the same amount on the dole, have a full medical card, 10 C car outside the door, mortgage interest supplement and household benifit package to boot.

Whats fair about that?!

Well the dole does need reform aswell I dont think anyone on either private or public sector disagrees with you

jessiejam

bamboozle wrote: »

jessiejam wrote: »

Really

You think none of the PS workers have a partner/wife/husband that is or was a private sector employee that has been laid off or made redundant?

Surviving on one income of about €400 per week to run a home pay a mortgage and bills etc with 2 kids in tow? Partner not entitled to anything because they were self employed?

When the neighbours next door god love them were both made redundant, Given the bones of 100k in redundancy between them, but are getting the same amount on the dole, have a full medical card, 10 C car outside the door, mortgage interest supplement and household benifit package to boot.

Whats fair about that?![/QUOTE]

would you like to swap situations with your neighbours?

if your answers no then you'll have to give the govt time to tidy up the mess Bertie and his ilk made of social welfare benefits in this country.

The situation I quoted is not my situation but that of a friend of mine. So I can't really say
But can you honestly say bamboozle that a tidy up of the social welfare is that easy to do? The amount of fraud in the country as we know is huge. Where do you start?

jessiejam

fliball123 wrote: »

Well the dole does need reform aswell I dont think anyone on either private or public sector disagrees with you

I agree with you 100%. As I said in a previous post, a dole cut should not be on the cards for those activly seeking work or those who were made redundant in the last 3 years. Its the scroungers that lapped it up in the boom times that I have the issue with.

But again this is not the lower paid workers in the PS fault.

fliball123

jessiejam wrote: »

I agree with you 100%. As I said in a previous post, a dole cut should not be on the cards for those activly seeking work or those who were made redundant in the last 3 years. Its the scroungers that lapped it up in the boom times that I have the issue with.

But again this is not the lower paid workers in the PS fault.

There are very simple measures that the gov can do with regard to the dole...

1: make people sign on at least 3 times a week - Cuts down on people being able to work on the black market. It also stops people not living in the country claiming
2: ID cards for all people recieving the dole - Cuts out fraud as if you are not the person in the pic...you aint getting the cash
3: Make Mothers put the fathers name on the birth cert. If they dont they recieve only half the childrens allowanece..If they do..The gov should chase the father for the 140 Euros a month
4: People who have paid PRSI stamps should get full wage of what they were on for the first 6 months and then halved and continue to half till its down to say 150 Euros ...this 150 should be paid as 50 in cash and 100 in stamps that can be spent in and only Irish shops.
5: If a person does not take a job or course when offered..Dole should be halved and continuously halved each time they do not take an offer
6: Mothers should get Creches for free and rules above should be applied. No longer should motherhood be an occupation of choice. I am sick of young girls being looked after on my dime.
7: Dole queue needs to be harmonised with a jobs list.
8: People in the public sector not doing a lot..(I am looking at areas like Planning permission and other areas that are now near defunct) should be retrained and used to monitor people on the dole..IE people who are claiming follow for a week to see if they are working..Same with mothers who say they are living alone...If a partner is in the house for say 4 out of the 7 days and he is working they should be cut off...


The above would take money to sort but I reckon the amount saved would be well worth it

Degsy

fliball123 wrote: »

that on average the PS are paid more than the private sector..

Where are the private sector equivilent of Guards,Teachers and Firemen?

irishh_bob

Degsy wrote: »

You see the "Celtic Tiger" was a chimera..it was a time when cash in hand went cheek by jowl with corruption,inflated prices and unrealistic uses of credit.


Why didnt people make provision for any potential downturn?

Because it wasnt a popular idea..they lost the run of themselves and blew thier leveraged money on plasma screen TVs,"investment properties" in Bulgaria and poxy jeeps they used to bring the kids 100 yards down the road.

Working in the Public Sector was seen as a mug's game with no chance to work off the books or make a decent few bob to squander..should we feel guity because we didnt buy the whole "my kitchen is bigger than yours" bullshiit?

the ( union tutored ) line about how no one wanted a job in the public sector during the boom has been rubbished and exposed for the lie that it is long ago , you will have to do better than that in 2011 , wages in the public sector were ahead of wages in the private sector all through the celtic tiger years , the likes of a guard was earning on average 1200 per week up untill 2008 , most guys shovelling concrete werent doing any better than that and the vast majority of those are on the scrap heap now and with no pension

as for buying investment propertys , the likes of teachers ( and especially guards ) have always been to the forefront when it comes to buying investment propertys

bamboozle

Degsy wrote: »

Where are the private sector equivilent of Guards,Teachers and Firemen?

well for starters you could compare to the UK for their salaries of police, teachers and firemen...oh wait that wouldnt look too good for our guys.

irishh_bob

Degsy wrote: »

Where are the private sector equivilent of Guards,Teachers and Firemen?

red herring

bamboozle

jessiejam wrote: »

bamboozle wrote: »

The situation I quoted is not my situation but that of a friend of mine. So I can't really say
But can you honestly say bamboozle that a tidy up of the social welfare is that easy to do? The amount of fraud in the country as we know is huge. Where do you start?

where did i say a tidy up of social welfare would be easy to do?
i cleary said we needed to give the govt time to clear up the mess that is our welfare system.

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

Where are the private sector equivilent of Guards,Teachers and Firemen?

Whats your point..Have you look at what Guards, teachers and Firemen get paid in other Eurozone countries?

Guards - Secuirty Gaurds
Teachers - Montasory workers, company Trainers
Firemen - Ok Nothing here

irishh_bob

bamboozle wrote: »

well for starters you could compare to the UK for their salaries of police, teachers and firemen...oh wait that wouldnt look too good for our guys.

awaits for the standard reply of cost of living difference , thing is , the cost off living is the same for the private sector as it is for the public sector , besdies , from what ive seen , the uk isnt any less expensive than ireland

nursextreme

bamboozle wrote: »

do you actually think we need more people working in the public service???? is 16.5 billions spent a year not enough????

perhaps the thousands of 'admin' staff working in the HSE, many pointless quango and other state departments who are doing SFA could be reallocated to areas where additional staff is needed or encourage to take early retirement, God forbid the unions actually saw the logic of something like this, but then again would these staff actually want to be switched somewhere where they'd have to do a bit of work?

You are missing my point on this issue, what I am suggesting is that it is crazy to pay retired staff or regular staff overtime while you pay the dole to the person who should be employed in that post. That's money wasted on 3 fronts.
Agree with you on the second part, main problem we have is that these admin staff are no real use when it comes to filling the actual post that need to be filled, leading to more spending on overtime etc.

bamboozle

nursextreme wrote: »

You are missing my point on this issue, what I am suggesting is that it is crazy to pay retired staff or regular staff overtime while you pay the dole to the person who should be employed in that post. That's money wasted on 3 fronts.
Agree with you on the second part, main problem we have is that these admin staff are no real use when it comes to filling the actual post that need to be filled, leading to more spending on overtime etc.

is there not a surplus of middle management in the HSE and many other departments? surely some of these have the skill sets to transfer into most other areas (apart from the obvious specialist ones like Doctors, nurses etc and if not then why are they in mgt roles) if there are still issues then why not retrain existing staff.
A very simple example would be transferring some excess HR admin & hr staff into the dept of social protection with a view to further targeting SW fraud.

hiring new staff, thus exposing the state coffers to additional salaries and pension entitlements at a time when we are committed to reducing PS staff numbers & costs is a non runner in all but the extreme specialist cases.