Question for Athiests and church bashers

aidan24326

aidan24326 wrote: »

I don't go out of my way to mock but when you claim to believe in things that make absolutely no sense you're leaving yourself open to it, and holding those beliefs under the banner of religion doesn't give them any more credibilty whatsoever.

Exactly.

If you make a ridiculous claim in public, you are asking to be criticised, whether or not the claim is religious in nature. If you don't like it, keep your beliefs to yourself.

Ush1

philologos wrote: »

Those quotes are from your link. The results don't seem too conclusive if both are true.

Why not? You do know education and IQ are two seperate things? You can be quite well educated yet score a low IQ and vice versa.

philologos

aidan24326 wrote: »

Pointing out the fallacies in religious beliefs has nothing to do with 'superiority'. Much of what is considered dogma in religion is blatantly absurd and often demonstrably false. To say that is simply to call a spade a spade, it's not about feeling intellectually superior.

If it is demonstrably false, how come I've never heard anyone argue that it is demonstrably false coherently on boards? If it is possible to completely demolish and refute the idea of a God I thought it would have been laid out here by now?

I've seen this type of thing said time and time again. I've seen no basis for such an opinion. Others present some form of refutation against the arguments presented, but when criticised continue to restate their position. Eventually it becomes a deadlock of people reposting their posts to eachother. When one person gets tired of it the claim is that one hasn't responded to the token copy of their previous post. Eventually it descends into ad-hominems, false accusations et al. Eventually you come to the conclusion as to wondering why you even bother as boards.ie is meant to be something recreational. There's little or no merit in such an "argument".

aidan24326 wrote: »

In saying that, some religious beliefs are so ridiculous as to almost deserve mocking. Fairytales for grownups who ought to know better. I don't go out of my way to mock but when you claim to believe in things that make absolutely no sense you're leaving yourself open to it, and holding those beliefs under the banner of religion doesn't give them any more credibilty whatsoever.

I don't see how it is any more ridiculous or less reasonable than atheism to be quite honest with you. To this day I haven't seen a good reason for this.

Ush1 wrote: »

Why not? You do know education and IQ are two seperate things? You can be quite well educated yet score a low IQ and vice versa.

They generally go hand in hand though. Academic success and education generally come with intelligence. However if you want to feel superior and all that jazz go ahead. I'm not in the mood for an ego-contest :pac:

nozzferrahhtoo

aidan24326 wrote: »

Pointing out the fallacies in religious beliefs has nothing to do with 'superiority'. Much of what is considered dogma in religion is blatantly absurd and often demonstrably false. To say that is simply to call a spade a spade, it's not about feeling intellectually superior.

Actually I would go further than this and point out that taking huge lumps of time out of your life to work with people on divesting themselves of such errors is not only NOT feeling intellectually superior, but IS acknowledging them as respectable equals with whom such discourse is possible, warranted and useful.

If I saw all theists as intellectually inferior or dishonest morons I would not even deign to speak with them. So by confronting their errors on subjects of the existence of god I am acknowledging them as intellectual equals. I am also showing I love and respect my fellow (wo)man enough to feel concerned enough about them and about the damage such errors can cause.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

If it is demonstrably false, how come I've never heard anyone argue that it is demonstrably false coherently on boards?

Easy! Because you run away from, ignore, and refuse to reply to any post that does just that.

Ush1

philologos wrote: »

They generally go hand in hand though. Academic success and education generally come with intelligence. However if you want to feel superior and all that jazz go ahead. I'm not in the mood for an ego-contest :pac:

Not sure what you mean there. Dealing with stats is supposed to be precise and IQ tests are standardised. You conveniently left this out of your quote:

In Australia, 23% of Christian church attenders have earned a university or postgraduate degree, whereas the figure for the general population is 13%.[16] Christianity is the predominant religion in Australia, although adherence is falling.[17] Commentators on the survey attribute the educational levels to sociological factors, such as age, class and income, making no claims about intelligence.[16] [18]

philologos

Fair enough, but still I don't understand how this helps your claim at all. Surely it is likely that you will complete a university degree because you've demonstrated some form of intelligence? I doubt atheists are so impoverished as to not be able to afford university.

Ray Palmer

philologos wrote: »

Probability is based on likelihood blah blah.

You are basing your views on belief it is that simple your claims to have logical reasons for them are not!
I could care less what you believe what is obvious you are fooling yourself/pretending their is logic behind it. That is your faith and you are welcome to it. You should learn to accept that is what it is but to deny it as such is laughable.

Such belief to me illustrates the suspension of logic for faith. It doesn't matter if you deny it you are incapable of logic argument because of your faith.
I don't believe a god is an requirement for the universe you do but what is clear is you can't think of a world where it is not required and you have no logical basis for that. It is simply what you believe. It is possible but highly unlikely as there is no proof you don't require proof I do.

Some of your claims such as resurrection required, spiritual experiences and god can be experienced. Are simply nonsense and have been pointed out to you a ton of times. They are matters of your faith and hold no logic or reasoning. They can be easily counter argued by known science and lessons in history. You won't listen to such arguments due to your faith. No point in claiming you are right you can't prove them and you ignore anything that questions them. Everything will fall flat if you simple just say "that isn't true". Not logical argument. People get angry with such argument because it is both childish and lacks intelligent debate.

Chuck Stone

You have the patience of a saint nozzferrahhto. Fair play.

Ush1

philologos wrote: »

Fair enough, but still I don't understand how this helps your claim at all. Surely it is likely that you will complete a university degree because you've demonstrated some form of intelligence?

Not particularly. I can certainly say that for my own case getting my degree.

More a memory test than any practical application or demonstration of intelligence really.

But we've digressed....

Helix

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I could care less what you believe

so you DO care what he believes

philologos

Ray Palmer: Fantastic. You essentially haven't responded to my post at all apart from to restate your opinion.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

Ray Palmer: Fantastic. You essentially haven't responded to my post at all apart from to restate your opinion.

Wow, that sounds familiar! Are you the pot or the kettle do you think?

Ray Palmer

philologos wrote: »

Ray Palmer: Fantastic. You essentially haven't responded to my post at all apart from to restate your opinion.

Again this is the childish mentality I expect. Quite apparent I was responding to what you stated. Rather than get bogged down by a diversionary tactic you used I explained once again in a clearer manner what most know. You are blinded by a faith. You do so in a very non Christian manner as most of your posts are. Check with what ever preacher you have and I would say think they will tell you cease this consistent adversarial conflict as it not in accordance with the faith you claim to be part of.

I doubt you could give it for lent as you certainly don't know how to turn the other cheek.

Mickeroo

Freddie59 wrote: »

Facepalm all you like, it's still 76%.:D

It's a well known fact the US is a largely christian country, someone said religion was on decline in the western world, you said "Erm...USA?", I then showed you a statistic that it is on decline. So yes it's still 76% but is also still 10% less than 20 years ago. meh.

Argumentum ad populem *shrug*

marty1985

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's a well known fact the US is a largely christian country, someone said religion was on decline in the western world, you said "Erm...USA?", I then showed you a statistic that it is on decline. So yes it's still 76% but is also still 10% less than 20 years ago. meh.

I could be wrong but didn't the statistic show that it was declining relatively? As in, other religion were gaining ground also, but the number of actual Christians was probably increasing. Could we get that link again just to clarify? I think certainly Catholicism is having a net loss as a lot of adults leave the religion, but a lot of those leave to join other churches.

Mickeroo

marty1985 wrote: »

I could be wrong but didn't the statistic show that it was declining relatively? As in, other religion were gaining ground also, but the number of actual Christians was probably increasing. Could we get that link again just to clarify? I think certainly Catholicism is having a net loss as a lot of adults leave the religion, but a lot of those leave to join other churches.

Yea it said relatively, I think it was all christians not just catholics, so there were more actual christians but less per capita.

It's on the wiki page on Religion in the USA

marty1985

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's a well known fact the US is a largely christian country, someone said religion was on decline in the western world, you said "Erm...USA?", I then showed you a statistic that it is on decline. So yes it's still 76% but is also still 10% less than 20 years ago. meh.

Argumentum ad populem *shrug*

I seem to be popping in and out with a different argument to everyone else.

I just want to point out the difference between "religion", which is what I was debating, and "Christianity", which is what everyone else seems to be talking about, or else using the terms interchangeably, which is incorrect.

pragmatic1

marty1985 wrote: »

I seem to be popping in and out with a different argument to everyone else.

I just want to point out the difference between "religion", which is what I was debating, and "Christianity", which is what everyone else seems to be talking about, or else using the terms interchangeably, which is incorrect.

What about the fastest growing religious demographic in that wiki article i.e. no religion. Thoughts.

marty1985

My argument is that religions change over time, and just give rise to other religions.

For example, Christianity just took from Judaism, and Islam took from Christianity, and now we have new religions from Christianity such as Mormonism which has had outrageous growth, all things considered. In my opinion, Christianity could die away, but religion won't.

pragmatic1

marty1985 wrote: »

My argument is that religions change over time, and just give rise to other religions.

For example, Christianity just took from Judaism, and Islam took from Christianity, and now we have new religions from Christianity such as Mormonism which has had outrageous growth, all things considered. In my opinion, Christianity could die away, but religion won't.

Yeah but what are your thoughts on significant increase in those claiming no religion in the US. Apparently the fastest growing demographic of any of the groups surveyed.

marty1985

Well, it includes me!

But it doesn't change my beliefs about how religion evolved to help us survive when we were dispersing from Africa, and it doesn't change my belief that it's not going away.

Demographics are relative. People are just answering surveys a bit more truthfully than they would have 50 years ago, perhaps. People seem to be less indifferent, that's all. In a place like Ireland people are more vocal about their opposition to the Catholic Church, and with damn good reason. But Ireland is a drop in the ocean. Numbers can go up or down, but you'd have to be blind to not see the significance (not saying good or bad) of religion in the world today.

marty1985

I seem to have been completely alone in my arguments in this thread. Because I don't further the agenda of either side.

There's nothing wrong with studying religion for its own sake, which is what I do. No other human invention has been as important, not even the wheel or the little eraser they put on top of pencils.

Mickeroo

marty1985 wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with studying religion for its own sake, which is what I do. No other human invention has been as important, not even the wheel or the little eraser they put on top of pencils.

The wheel?!?! Are you taking the piss?

marty1985

Notice I didn't say useful.

It's a single idea that is either the biggest fact or biggest fantasy, that has dominated human history and has guided and misguided more lives than anything else in the world. To the people who believe in it, it's the most important thing in life, that a lot of people live and die for.

If you're really surprised by this, then you might want to consider that you may have been underestimating religion.

marty1985

To clarify, "biggest" would have been a more apt description.

Mickeroo

marty1985 wrote: »

Notice I didn't say useful.

It's a single idea that is either the biggest fact or biggest fantasy, that has dominated human history and has guided and misguided more lives than anything else in the world. To the people who believe in it, it's the most important thing in life, that a lot of people live and die for.

If you're really surprised by this, then you might want to consider that you may have been underestimating religion.

yes but it's hardly the steam engine now is it. You can't compare an idea to a practical invention, please don't patronise me by suggesting I'm somehow surprised by religions importance,I fully acknowledge how influential religion has been and still is in the world but to suggest it contributed more to the development of modern society than the wheel, or say the steam engine or einsteins theory of relativity is just plain wrong. Religion is grand an all but it wouldn't exactly single handedly fuel an industrial revolution.

marty1985

Mickeroo wrote: »

please don't patronise me

Fair enough, sorry if it came across as patronising. But it was in response to a comment of "are you taking the piss".

I've spent all my time in this thread arguing how we could not have evolved without religion, a topic well argued in science and sociology, but that you guys don't even want to consider, because it's a great irony, that the religion you want to eradicate, helped us as a species to survive for the social benefits it gave us.

Mickeroo

marty1985 wrote: »

Fair enough, sorry if it came across as patronising. But it was in response to a comment of "are you taking the piss".

I've spent all my time in this thread arguing how we could not have evolved without religion, a topic well argued in science and sociology, but that you guys don't even want to consider, because it's a great irony, that the religion you want to eradicate, helped us as a species to survive for the social benefits it gave us.

I agree that it helped us survive, it filled in the gaps for a long time, gave us a tool with which to understand the world around us, but I feel we've reached a stage in our evoltion where we don't need it anymore. It probably won't go away completely anytime soon though.

Chuck Stone

marty1985 wrote: »

I've spent all my time in this thread arguing how we could not have evolved without religion, a topic well argued in science and sociology, but that you guys don't even want to consider, because it's a great irony, that the religion you want to eradicate, helped us as a species to survive for the social benefits it gave us.

That's just rubbish really. It's impossible to prove or disprove.

Cats are pretty successful creatures and they are notorious atheists.