Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Question for Athiests and church bashers

Options
24567…21

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Rachiee wrote: »
    my dad is stricter catholic, regular church go-er supports the majority of what the church says but was still intelligent enough to question the church on its belief on homosexuality (after I came out)
    Unfortunately, most hidebound religious types don't have a beloved family member spring out of the closet to make them question their homophobia.


  • Options
    #33
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    My mother is the only person in my immediate family who is religious. Past generations didnt have as much access to education and information. In addition, the church ruled with an iron fist. Any dissenting voices were hushed and marginalised. Thankfully that day is dead.

    Also people are often wrong about things, parents included.


  • Options
    #34
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Rachiee wrote: »
    I dont think intelligence has anything to do with religious beliefs

    It does [PDF] but society and indoctrinating the young has a much greater influence.


  • Options
    #35
    Caraville
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭Caraville


    Downlinz wrote: »
    If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


    (p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

    I can only assume OP, seeing as you didn't give any real opinion yourself, that you thus question the intelligence of religious people?

    I have to say, I really hope my atheist friends don't assume that about me as a non-atheist. I would never equate religious beliefs and intelligence- and to be honest, that kind of thinking does nothing for either side of the divide. An atheist should not feel more enlightened for feeling they know the real "truth", nor should a believer feel more enlightened for what they believe to be the real "truth".

    To be honest, I find that way of thinking to be a bit big-headed really, as if you've one over on the other side.


  • Options
    #36
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Downlinz wrote: »
    If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


    (p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

    I dont pass judgement on those who believed the world was flat, that fire was magic, that the stars were their dead relatives or such. I would if they still believed in such . I believed the same as my parents into my late teens and then dabbled with modern Paganism and Wicca. We do have an odd tendency to need this stuff just like salt, fat and sugar and other stuff that we should know better about.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,445 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Downlinz wrote: »
    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes?

    morons


  • Options
    #38
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    Downlinz wrote: »
    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


    (p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

    In 100 years' time your knowledge of the world and belief system will be sneered at by a smug know-it-all too.


  • Options
    #39
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Downlinz wrote: »

    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes?


    nothing.


  • Options
    #40
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Downlinz wrote: »
    If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

    These opinions aren't mutually exclusive.


  • Options
    #41
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    Some of the most religious people I know are the most educated.
    That is true. But then people like Dawkins and co have brainwashed a lot of people into thinking they are stupid and lack logic. Shame really.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    latenia wrote: »
    In 100 years' time your knowledge of the world and belief system will be sneered at by a smug know-it-all too.
    Such is life. But you can get one up on the smug know-it-all by appreciating the fact, while s/he may not realise the same applies to him/her.


  • Options
    #43
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Standman wrote: »
    It's well known that immensely intelligent people can be religious believers. It seems people are well able to compartmentalise their brains when it comes to religion.

    Why is compartmentalisation necessary? - Personally, I think belief in God is simply reasonable, I don't see why I need to separate all parts of my life and thinking off from it exactly. I'd go as far as to say that my belief in God actually influences everything else from my work, to my friendships, how I regard my family, how I regard the world around me and so on.


  • Options
    #44
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    philologos wrote: »
    Personally, I think belief in God is simply reasonable
    You should read the "Proofs of God" essay by Martin Gardner (he's a theist me thinks).

    Here.

    ^^ Google Books snips out pages, I'll try and find a complete copy.


  • Options
    #45
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Seachmall wrote: »
    You should read the "Proofs of God" essay by Martin Gardner (he's a theist me thinks).

    Here.

    Will do when I get a bit more time. Perhaps with a response as to what I think about it.


  • Options
    #46
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    philologos wrote: »
    Why is compartmentalisation necessary?
    Well, because in every area of knowledge, you can actually investigate the thing yourself and find that you come to the same conclusion that you've learned. You can do chemistry experiments, and you can do physics experiments. You can visit places to verify that they exist, you can read the primary sources that history is based on. With sufficient resources, you can verify everything.

    Except religion. There, it's a case of 'you can't check it, you can't prove it - but trust me'.

    Presumably you don't take Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Sikhs, or Zoroastrians, or anyone else at their word when they say 'trust me, this is true'. Some of us extend that lack of unquestioning belief to all religions, rather than all but one.


  • Options
    #47
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I can see where this is going, see ya at page 26...


  • Options
    #48
    Helix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    kiddy fiddlers, crusades, gallileo, hitler, nazi pope

    that everything out of the way?


  • Options
    #49
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Monty Burnz: I don't see how my belief in God adversely affects my perception of reality. In the case of any belief that I may be inclined to hold, the simple question I ask is is it more reasonable to believe this than not to believe this. In the case of Christianity, I find it more reasonable to believe than not believing in it. Christianity makes inherent sense to me, and that's why I believe in it. Atheism doesn't, my previous state of agnosticism didn't.

    The same applies for my political beliefs or beliefs in respect to any other thing. It is also subject to what is more reasonable to believe than not to believe. I think it is important to differentiate a belief from 100% knowledge. A belief is based on looking to what indications suggest that conclusion A may be true over conclusion B, or in the case of multiples C, D, E, F etc. Knowledge is based on what is certifiably so. There is always room for doubt in belief, but there is limited room for doubt in knowledge. I say limited because people can doubt anything if they want to.


  • Options
    #50
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Helix wrote: »
    kiddy fiddlers, crusades, gallileo, hitler, nazi pope

    that everything out of the way?
    You forgot the Nazi...no, wait, there he is.


  • Options
    #51
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    The older generations were kept in line with fear, not faith.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Spread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Spread


    Indoctrination, geographic bias, fear, ignorance, piseogs, and lack of independent scientific study all contributed to the unholy alliance called religion.


  • Options
    #53
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    philologos wrote: »
    Monty Burnz: I don't see how my belief in God adversely affects my perception of reality.
    I don't think I said that it did!
    philologos wrote: »
    In the case of any belief that I may be inclined to hold, the simple question I ask is is it more reasonable to believe this than not to believe this.
    I ask a different question - how does the person making the claim expect me to believe it is true? If they can prove the claim, I know it's possible for me to verify it for myself, should I have doubts.
    philologos wrote: »
    The same applies for my political beliefs or beliefs in respect to any other thing.
    Not really - I recognise a distinction between facts (the earth orbits the sun) and my beliefs (it's the nicest sun around). One I can prove, the other I know may be incorrect, even if it is my current belief.


  • Options
    #54
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    baptise your babies or they'll go to hell, anyone who commits suicide will go to hell, no divorce or possible hell, child rapists? well then the victims are shamed and will probably go to hell.

    the church are scum, end of.


  • Options
    #55
    Shenshen
    Registered Users Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Downlinz wrote: »
    If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


    (p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

    Have you met my parents and grandparents?
    The fact that some of them are religious didn't do any additional damage to my view of their intelligence.... there wasn't much left to damage, to be honest.


  • Options
    #56
    Caraville
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭Caraville


    RichieC wrote: »
    The older generations were kept in line with fear, not faith.

    I still have faith and I'm not in fear. I'm saddened by recent events and continue to question things because I don't have complete blind faith. I disagree with a number of things within the Catholic Church so yeah, maybe I'm not a true Catholic- but I still have faith. I'd never question anyone who doesn't though, that's their business.

    Think I'll bow out of this discussion though, religion threads are becoming a bit of a yawn-fest around here. I've no problem with people wanting to discuss the Ryan Report or Enda Kenny's speech, etc- but this whole "It's all bunkum/No it isn't" malarkey is getting a bit tiresome.


  • Options
    #57
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I'm an atheist, I am opposed to those who are up on high in the Catholic Church. My grandparents were Catholics, my dad is a Catholic. My mother seems to be less convinced (she doesn't talk about it much, but I suspect she's at least agnostic). We all get along fine. I don't think anything of those who choose to believe in God. When I oppose the Catholic Church, I am opposed to those who have abused that faith for their own ends and have made a mockery of people with real faith in Catholicism. Ordinary Catholics are not to blame for the failings of the Pope and all his henchmen, and the priests and bishops involved in heinous crimes. My grandparents died before any of this scandal stuff came to light, but I think they would have been appalled by it. My grandmother on my dad's side, in particular, was a very strong believer in justice and she would have hated to see these people walk away unpunished. My dad no longer goes to mass, and has never given money to the institution anyway. They're people of faith, but they're not blinded by it and they certainly are not foolish enough to accept everything the Pope says.


  • Options
    #58
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Caraville wrote: »
    this whole "It's all bunkum/No it isn't" malarkey is getting a bit tiresome.
    I believe that this view was first expressed on a forum by Socrates in 410 BC. I think the posts are starting to tail off a bit now.


  • Options
    #59
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Downlinz wrote: »
    What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did?

    As has been said I dont think my my parents were very religious, they kind of went through the motions.

    Going further back it would have been socially unacceptable to have been openly a non-believer.

    I do howeever have some relatives today that are "born again christians" and I do indeed regard them as gullible and naive.


  • Options
    #60
    LighterGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,243 ✭✭✭LighterGuy


    I am open to there being a god. Apart of me believes. However I do not believe in the church... its just a business. Lets be honest.

    But when it comes to Athiests I have a bit of a strong opinion. Obviously not all, but there are alot who have a stuck up view of themselves. That they feel they are more intelligent than who believe in god.

    Need proof? 6th post in this thread with loads of "thanks" from other users:
    Helix wrote: »
    atheism tends to come with education, and our parents' and grandparents' generations didnt have the same level of that as we do.

    And thats what I dont like about athiests. Alot are stuck up :rolleyes:


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    CorkMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭CorkMan


    What I don't get is that it has only been in the past 30 years has Religion been questioned in this country. Christianity has been around for a very long time, but now in 30 years a generation has turned atheist?

    I feel that the revelations of the church has been turning people off as well. But one thing I notice is that Religion is "fading" in these extremely well to do countries, ie the US, Western Europe. In the poorest parts of the world Religion is still strong and it will stay that way. I feel that if the world was hit by some catastrophe tomorrow (like a comet hitting earth) Religion would be stronger in the western world.


Advertisement