Question for Athiests and church bashers

32yg

KeithAFC wrote: »

Nothing really. A lot of people just went to church to talk to friends and have a good old chat. Some probably still do.

I've heard of atheist's that just go to church for the sense of community that it brings.

AudreyHepburn

Personally I think anyone who thinks their beliefs or lack thereof gives them the right to question other peoples intelligence wants to be taking a serious look at themselves.

steddyeddy

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

Beleiving the church is corrupt is no indication as to wheter god exists or not or wheter the catholic faith is the one true faith. There is no conflict there. As regards my grand parents Most of them knew that nuns running these hellholes were animals.

marty1985

pragmatic1 wrote: »

1. Thats your belief. You dont actually have any basis for it.

2. Not in the western world. Its been in sharp decline for decades now, which is to be expected as western countries are generally more advanced.

1. I'm just going along with scientists in biology and sociology. I recommend the book The Faith Instinct by Nicholas Wade, it's really eye opening.

2. Look at the US Presidential hopefuls. Evangelical Christians and Mormons. These people will set the agenda. And then think of the religious tensions in the Middle East, and how those tensions are impacting the West. So, politically, you'll probably agree religion is a major force.

Church attendances have been in decline for most of the 20th century. Peaks and troughs, swings and roundabouts. I guarantee you, it's not going away.

marty1985

pragmatic1 wrote: »

That still doesnt explain why any laws other than those written in religious texts were needed if religion has such a calming influence on society.

You are really not getting what I'm saying. I never said it has a calming influence. Can't you concede that religion must have had some social benefits for societies over the past 15,000 years? I'm even talking long before any religious texts were ever written, before there was any writing. I really have to stress it - religion is very, very old.

pragmatic1

philologos wrote: »

LOL. Depends on how you pick your examples.

North Korea (state atheism), Italy (majority Catholic) :pac:

Sudan/France, Yemen/Germany, Iran/Finland, Mauritania/Belgium, etc.

steddyeddy

marty1985 wrote: »

You are really not getting what I'm saying. I never said it has a calming influence. Can't you concede that religion must have had some social benefits for societies over the past 15,000 years? I'm even talking long before any religious texts were ever written, before there was any writing. I really have to stress it - religion is very, very old.

Neanderthals were thought to have religious rites. I think religion first served its purpose as something spiritual but evolved as a form of control.

strobe

marty1985 wrote: »

Most people in Norway belong to The Church Of Norway, and in Sweden, The Church of Sweden, since they are initiated at birth through baptism etc, much like Irish people. Most people don't go to church regularly, but interestingly most people reject the term Atheist there - they strongly dislike it and even though most don't attend church, very few identify themselves as atheist, instead saying they do actually believe in God, or a God.

You are right about most people being members of the Church of Sweden and Church of Norway but according to this Eurobarometer survey from 2005 only 23% of people questioned in Sweden said they believed in a God and only 32% in Norway did. Have you a source that contradicts this and suggests that most people say they believe in God or a God?

Freddie59

Helix wrote: »

that's not how it works. these guys do really believe the religious stuff they spout. just like hitler really believed jews were lesser humans no religion equals no holocausr

Over simplistic, to put it mildly.

Freddie59

housetypeb wrote: »

Can i knock serial killers ? I have no experience of that either.

:rolleyes:

marty1985

strobe wrote: »

You are right about most people being members of the Church of Sweden and Church of Norway but according to this Eurobarometer survey from 2005 only 23% of people questioned in Sweden said they believed in a God and only 32% in Norway did. Have you a source that contradicts this and suggests that most people say they believe in God or a God?

Here is a New York Times article from 2009 titled
"Scandinavian Nonbelievers, Which Is Not to Say Atheists"


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?pagewanted=1

The many nonbelievers he interviewed, both informally and in structured, taped and transcribed sessions, were anything but antireligious, for example. They typically balked at the label “atheist.” An overwhelming majority had in fact been baptized, and many had been confirmed or married in church.

Though they denied most of the traditional teachings of Christianity, they called themselves Christians, and most were content to remain in the Danish National Church or the Church of Sweden, the traditional national branches of Lutheranism.

Freddie59

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Afghanistan (religious). Sweden (secular). I think its fairly obvious which society is the most advanced.

'In God We Trust'

The most advanced nation on the planet.:p

Mickeroo

marty1985 wrote: »

Here is a New York Times article from 2009 titled
"Scandinavian Nonbelievers, Which Is Not to Say Atheists"


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?pagewanted=1

Meh, if they don't believe in a god then they're atheists whether they call themselves that or not. An atheist by any other name is still an atheist.

Mickeroo

Freddie59 wrote: »

'In God We Trust'

The most advanced nation on the planet.:p

That's US currency, not japanese :pac:

marty1985

strobe wrote: »

You are right about most people being members of the Church of Sweden and Church of Norway but according to this Eurobarometer survey from 2005 only 23% of people questioned in Sweden said they believed in a God and only 32% in Norway did. Have you a source that contradicts this and suggests that most people say they believe in God or a God?

Sorry, I misread your post when I posed the NY Times article. Regarding, the stat for believing in some higher power, I might have dropped the ball there. The stat I was thinking about, was that in the Eurostat survey, 53% of people in Sweden said they believe in some sort of spirit or life force.

Freddie59

pragmatic1 wrote: »

1. Thats your belief. You dont actually have any basis for it.

2. Not in the western world. Its been in sharp decline for decades now, which is to be expected as western countries are generally more advanced.

Em, USA...........?

Guill

Downlinz wrote: »

If you believe the church is corrupt + power hungry and that god isn't real.

What does that say about your judgment on the intelligence of your parents, grandparents and other relatives who more than likely devoted so much of their lives to these causes? As a huge part of our society wouldn't it imply you believed they were gullible and naive people to live the way they did? Perhaps weak-willed to stand out from the crowd and question accepted truths?


(p.s. I am an athiest and pondering this question myself. Not looking to start some sort of shame parade or anything)

I don't care about other peoples beliefs or how they came to have or how they practice them. I am an athiest, i dont force my beliefs on anyone. I dont judge anyone for their beliefs, i just get on with my life happy knowing my family are happy with their beliefs.

Seachmall

steddyeddy wrote: »

Neanderthals were thought to have religious rites. I think religion first served its purpose as something spiritual but evolved as a form of control.

Humans are, or at least often compared to, neotenous animals. That is we grow up but still maintain a certain youthful element that requires a parent figure.

"Man's evolution as a neotenous ape has put him in a similar position to the dog's. He becomes sexually mature and yet he still needs a parent - a super-parent, one as impessive to him as a man must be to a dog. The answer was to invent a god - either in the shape of a Mother Goddess, or a male god in the shape of God the Father, or perhaps a whole family of gods. Like real parents they would protect, punish and be obeyed" - Dr. Desmond Morris (People Watching)

It's for this reason that atheism is considered evolutionarily novel and thus should be directly related to intelligence (at least according to the Savanna-IQ Interaction Hypothesis).

strobe

marty1985 wrote: »

Here is a New York Times article from 2009 titled
"Scandinavian Nonbelievers, Which Is Not to Say Atheists"


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28beliefs.html?pagewanted=1

That article doesn't say anything about most Swedish and Norwegian people claiming to believe in God or a God. Quite the opposite.

Mickeroo

Freddie59 wrote: »

Em, USA...........?

Wikipedia:

Despite its status as the most widespread and influential religion in the US, Christianity is undergoing a continuous relative decline in demographics. While the absolute number of Christians rose from 1990 to 2008 as the overall population increased, the actual percentage of Christians dropped from 86.2% to 76.0%

pragmatic1

marty1985 wrote: »

1. I'm just going along with scientists in biology and sociology. I recommend the book The Faith Instinct by Nicholas Wade, it's really eye opening.

2. Look at the US Presidential hopefuls. Evangelical Christians and Mormons. These people will set the agenda. And then think of the religious tensions in the Middle East, and how those tensions are impacting the West. So, politically, you'll probably agree religion is a major force.

Church attendances have been in decline for most of the 20th century. Peaks and troughs, swings and roundabouts. I guarantee you, it's not going away.

1. Scientists are saying there is a genetic component to religion? Im intrigued. How come we have atheists then.

2. Thats one side of the political spectrum and thats if they get elected, doubt a mormon will ever win. We arent talking about the middle east, we're talking about the west. I'd love to contrast the census 2011 figures for religion with those of 20 years ago.

marty1985

Strobe, sorry I acknowledged my mistake in the link in an earlier post at top of this page.

strobe

marty1985 wrote: »

Sorry, I misread your post when I posed the NY Times article. Regarding, the stat for believing in some higher power, I might have dropped the ball there. The stat I was thinking about, was that in the Eurostat survey, 53% of people in Sweden said they believe in some sort of spirit or life force.

Ah, fair enough so.

LighterGuy

To throw an interesting question out there ....

Say lets take an athiest. So they dont believe in god. fair enough. but whats right and wrong then to them?


Like, with religious beliefs what you do in life will be judged when you go down. (now that can bring up another topic about religious control etc but we'll leave that for another thread) but if you dont believe in god ... doesnt that mean you should do what you want in life. Be a liar, two faced, user etc because when you go down, thats it.

As I said earlier in the thread. I believe in a god. I DONT believe in religion. Its a business. But I know in my heart if I ever stopped believing in a god... right and wrong would be out the window 100%. 'Cause lets be honest everyone is out for themselves in this world as it is. But yet we generally have a threshold of whats really bad. If I dont believe in a higher power then whats really right or wrong to me?

I guess I am asking a moralistic question. Yeah sure we have laws. But these laws are made by the same people who break them.

Snakeblood

LighterGuy wrote: »

To throw an interesting question out there ....

Say lets take an athiest. So they dont believe in god. fair enough. but whats right and wrong then to them?


Like, with religious beliefs what you do in life will be judged when you go down. (now that can bring up another topic about religious control etc but we'll leave that for another thread) but if you dont believe in god ... doesnt that mean you should do what you want in life. Be a liar, two faced, user etc because when you go down, thats it.

As I said earlier in the thread. I believe in a god. I DONT believe in religion. Its a business. But I know in my heart if I ever stopped believing in a god... right and wrong would be out the window 100%. 'Cause lets be honest everyone is out for themselves in this world as it is. But yet we generally have a threshold of whats really bad. If I dont believe in a higher power then whats really right or wrong to me?

I guess I am asking a moralistic question. Yeah sure we have laws. But these laws are made by the same people who break them.

Just because there's no god doesn't mean religion and philosophy have given us no good ideas.

billybobbacon

i too am an athiest, have been since i was about 14 years old; but my parents being god-fearing semi-believers(?), had me baptized into the catholic faith, and nowadays, when people ask me if i am a catholic, my reply is "no, i am an athiest, however, i am the offspring of catholic parents". Sometimes, people dont quite know to react to that, and i find it that amusing to see their thoughts struggling with the concept.

Seachmall

LighterGuy wrote: »

I guess I am asking a moralistic question. Yeah sure we have laws. But these laws are made by the same people who break them.

We evolved to behave in packs and even to sacrifice our well-being to benefit others in the pack. As numbers in our packs became large societies much faster than evolution adapts we apply these altruistic behaviors to strangers on the street.

We have innate, instinctive reasons to care for each other.

Statistically speaking there are more Christians in US prisons than atheists, religion doesn't make you a good person.

Mickeroo

LighterGuy wrote: »

Say lets take an athiest. So they dont believe in god. fair enough. but whats right and wrong then to them?

Atheists are nice because they're nice, religious people are only nice because they don't want to be punished :pac:

In short, people's morals don't come from books.

marty1985

Seachmall wrote: »

We evolved to behave in packs and even to sacrifice our well-being to benefit others in the pack. As numbers in our packs became large societies much faster than evolution adapts we apply these altruistic behaviors to strangers on the street.

We have innate, instinctive reasons to care for each other.

True.

I'll add to this a quote by Thomas Jefferson.

State a moral case to a ploughman and a professor. The former will decide it as well, and often better than the latter, because he has not been led astray by artificial rules.

Moral instincts came before religion. Religion enforced moral instincts by making people fear deeply the consequences for ignoring them.

Mickeroo

LighterGuy wrote: »

As I said earlier in the thread. I believe in a god. I DONT believe in religion. Its a business. But I know in my heart if I ever stopped believing in a god... right and wrong would be out the window 100%. 'Cause lets be honest everyone is out for themselves in this world as it is. But yet we generally have a threshold of whats really bad. If I dont believe in a higher power then whats really right or wrong to me?

I guess I am asking a moralistic question. Yeah sure we have laws. But these laws are made by the same people who break them.

If that's really true then there's a good chance you're an affectionless psycopath and should be locked up or at least get therapy. :pac: