Did Ulster Unionism divide and rule ?

owenc

Alopex wrote: »

That map is 20 years old remember.

Yes and that means there could be an increase in the protestant community. Alot of protestants have moved from derry to limavady recently because of discrimination and the fact that derry is like 99% catholic and protestants get virtually no say in anything there. Its very unfair i think the derry borough should be trying to attract more protestants to derry rather than move them away.

Reekwind

Kostick's Revolution in Ireland: Popular Militancy 1917 to 1923 is a good solid look at, well, popular militancy in Ireland during the independence years. A major theme is how both Unionist and Nationalist authorities struggled, albeit successfully, to control working class communities who had more natural inclinations towards the organised labour movement

owenc wrote: »

Oh and because of the way the voting is done it is easy for the nationalists to get a majority because of the way the areas are joined i.e the protestant seats are joined with the catholic areas to make it look like its a nationalist area when its not i hate the way the ni voting system is its not fair!

Gerrymandering? In the North? I am shocked

But then I can see how a Sinn Fein dominated Assembly... sorry, a nationalist dominated assembly... sorry, a nationalist dominated Boundary Commission... hang on. Who exactly is fixing the electoral borders so that it's "not fair"?

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

Well they can say whatever they like but those figures are incorrect theres no way limavady borough is a catholic borough. I know it very well theres just no way at all! funnily those figures are the exact same as the ones posted above that i quoted except the opposite way around hmmm.

As stated earlier in thread opinion must be backed up with a source. This is in the interest of keeping the thread based on fact which in turn should avoid differences of opinion (rows). This is particularly necessary in this type of thread to avoid conflict. In this case no source is used other than personal opinion so in future present a source to back up the opinion.

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owenc

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

As stated earlier in thread opinion must be backed up with a source. This is in the interest of keeping the thread based on fact which in turn should avoid differences of opinion (rows). This is particularly necessary in this type of thread to avoid conflict. In this case no source is used other than personal opinion so in future present a source to back up the opinion.

as posted earlier if there is a problem with this, send a PM to me.
I prefer not to interfere in this but I will remove posts or ban if this advice is continuously ignored.

Thank you -moderator

Hi, I've already provided figures (mines are from the uk census which is official) . I just find it interesting that his are the exact same % except swapped around it looks very suspicious i think theres an error in them. I mean how could the census site be wrong?

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

Hi, I've already provided figures (mines are from the uk census which is official) . I just find it interesting that his are the exact same % except swapped around it looks very suspicious i think theres an error in them. I mean how could the census site be wrong?

Is it possible that the boundaries for both of these, census and elections, are different. i.e. one is the town boundaries and the other is just an electoral boundary. The electoral boundaries were always subject to being moved in NI although Limavady borough is a newer constituency. Or maybe its an error as you suggest.

EDIT: the census has a figure of 12135 as Limavady town population. http://www.nisranew.nisra.gov.uk/census/pdf/ks_sett_tables.pdf
Limavady borough has an estimated population of 34,000 http://www.lgsc.org.uk/fs/doc/Limavady%20S75%20Statistics.pdf (this also shows a religious division to complicate further. In regard of OP the division most likely doesnt matter much.

MarchDub

owenc wrote: »

Hi, I've already provided figures (mines are from the uk census which is official) . I just find it interesting that his are the exact same % except swapped around it looks very suspicious i think theres an error in them. I mean how could the census site be wrong?

Hi Owen this is not a big deal but just checking the link for Limavady Borough Council Jonnie provided if you scroll down to page 4 - I tried to cut and paste but it's not working because it's a PDF file - you will see that Limavady says under "all Persons Limavady" Catholics are 53.14%. The source is listed as

Source – 2001 Census NISRA

But of course this is a census figure based on household answers in the borough.

Your link is for the Town of Limavady and on page 40 of your link I found the figures you are referring to for religion. But it is the TOWN figures that you are giving here not the borough.

Alopex

owen you have to remember the borough includes dungiven. which going by the murals and monuments i would say is near 100% catholic. ballykelly i would also think has an RC majority

owenc

Aw god aye I forgot about dungiven lol... But ballykelly is mixed not catholic.. The whole eastern edge is Protestant and the western edge is catholic is freaky how quick it changes from a catholic area to a Protestant one on the way from Derry to Coleraine.. It dosnt matter anyway because they're changing the councils soon and I'm sure the boundaries will be altered according to distances to hospitals so the west of tbs town will goto a western borough and the east eastern borough.. I always hated it when I lived on the feet eastern edge of the borough (because if dads job we moved back) And they kept sending us to Derry hospital which was like 25 miles away even though Coleraine which only 7 miles away it was so stupid..

jonniebgood1

Delancey wrote: »

At the time of the partition of the Island of Ireland the Free State was a largely agrarian economy with relatively little in the way of industry , Northern Ireland on the other hand had substantial industry like shipbuilding , textiles , heavy engineering , etc.
Northern Ireland workers had similar issues that industrial workers around Europe had at the time : housing , healthcare , wages , etc.
The conditions in Northern Ireland it could be argued were 'ripe' for Socialism yet this never took root. Why?

This subject is linked to a discussion here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056333127

The information that I have looked at in relation to the south of the country, particularly Munster suggests that the reason socialism or syndicalism did not progress was that it was overtaken by the desire for independence (nationalism). Given the more industrialised situation in NI and Belfast in particular I think it was "ripe for Socialism" as per OP.

The director of Intelligence at the Home Office Basil Hugh Thomson wrote of this period in relation to Britain that "During the first three months of 1919 unrest touched its high-water mark. I do not think that at any time in history since the Bristol riots we have been so near revolution"(76) Sir Henry Wilson had walked out of a cabinet meeting in December 1918 when it "refused to consider that either that a state of war existed or that a Bolshevik rising was likely." (77) http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=5557

It seems that to break the spirit of unity between the workers that sectarian divisions were exploited by the leaders of industry and society at the time. This is similar to the situation in the south.

Despite all these precautions and compromises the strike was still attacked as a Sinn Fein plot by the unionist establishment. The Belfast Newsletter of Saturday 25 January proclaimed "The threat to paralyze the public services of the city, if carried out, will rejoice the heart of Sinn Fein and will play most powerfully into its hands" and The Northern Whig claimed that members of the strike committee "spoke with accents not generally associated with the North of Ireland".

The Orange Order tried not to publicly appear to be taking sides for fear of losing influence in the protestant working class but a Grand Lodge document produced in the Belfast Weekly Telegraph on the 8th February claimed "the condition of affairs today had been to a great extent engineered by parties who are neither employers nor employed but have taken advantage of a trade dispute to attempt to bring discredit on the fair fame of Belfast" (86)

On the 7th February the Lord Lieutenant Lord French endorsed the view of GOC Northern command that the strike was organised by Bolsheviks and Sinn Feiners. http://www.anarkismo.net/newswire.php?story_id=5557 (While the sources I have quoted contain quotes and fact it should be noted that they come from an anarchist website whose goals should also be considered http://www.anarkismo.net/our_goals )

The result of the association of Sinnfein with Bolshevism was a strong association between the Catholic workers in these industries (particularly the shipyard) and the trade union organisors who were often protestant. This would eventually lead to both these elements being banished and the threat of socialism to the Unionist elite was removed.