Merger of Waterford VECs with Wexford

bookworms

good article in this weeks Munster Express

fricatus

bookworms wrote: »

good article in this weeks Munster Express

I know it's probably only in the print edition, but what's the gist of it?

Psychedelic

fricatus wrote: »

I know it's probably only in the print edition, but what's the gist of it?

I only had a very quick scan of the article, but it's about Waterford VEC challenging Minister Ruari Quinn's decision. One point made was about the Waterford VEC CEO who can't be relocated to Wexford under the Croke Park Agreement.

O Riain

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1117/breaking75.html

going by that article all VEC's are going to be merged with Dublin City VEC. Subsequently making this a big hullabaloo about absolutely nothing.
To be honest the grants system is a joke and its about time one body was awarding all the grants and doing so online.

dayshah

O Riain wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1117/breaking75.html

going by that article all VEC's are going to be merged with Dublin City VEC. Subsequently making this a big hullabaloo about absolutely nothing.
To be honest the grants system is a joke and its about time one body was awarding all the grants and doing so online.

:rolleyes:

That article only refers to merging the function of awarding grants. The VECs are more than just administers of grants.

O Riain

dayshah wrote: »

:rolleyes:

That article only refers to merging the function of awarding grants. The VECs are more than just administers of grants.

ah yes i forgot that alright. Still thou, a fairly substantial decrease in the work load will mean job losses in this area. Could it result in a few years of No VEC in Waterford with just the one situated in Wexford?

thorn in the side

Hi all, I joined Boards.ie as I was really interested in the sequence of postings about the proposed Merger of Waterford VECs with Wexford.

The real impact of the merger of Wexford & Waterford (city and county) VECs is simply that:

1) Clare McMahon, CEO, Co. Wexford VEC moves from her present position to somewhere else;
2) Gerard Morgan, Acting CEO, City of Waterford VEC reverts to his previous position, and;
3) Paddy Lavelle, CEO, Co. Waterford VEC takes over as CEO of the newly merged ETB.

No member of staff from any of the three original VECs has to move anywhere, and everything continues as normal.

Three for the price of one! Why would you bother to pay for 3 CEOs when you need only pay for one.

bookworms

"No member of staff from any of the three original VECs has to move anywhere, and everything continues as normal."


If a staff member is deemed "surplus", then he/she can be moved anywhere, or even loose their job. So to say everything continues as normal is a big generalisation. It has come to a stage in Waterford that every single job is precious and that needs to be recognised.

Psychedelic

From today's Irish Times:

John Deasy TD asked Ms McManus about the decision to locate the amalgamated Wexford and Waterford VECs’ headquarters in Wexford.

She said both locations were considered suitable by the department, and it was Minister for Education Ruairí Quinn’s decision to choose Wexford.

Full article: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0210/1224311576080.html

thorn in the side

Although entitled “Report on County Cork Vocational Education Committee 2008”, the full account of the Public Accounts Committee Hearings can be found here:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/ACC/2012/02/09/00004.asp

(go down to about the fourth instance of "John Deasy" to find the full transcript of John Deasy's questioning of Ms Brigid McManus).

merlante

Submitted a freedom of information request to the department of education and skills to find out what the criteria was for the selection of Wexford rather than Waterford city (or elsewhere) for the VEC headquarters. Got a response saying something like "there are no records matching your request". Intended to appeal it, or something, and asked one or two legal experts how typical this sort of response was, etc., but basically, they never really got back to me, and I was up to my neck in work, so I had to drop it and any chance of an appeal within the window of response.

The decision was obviously a corrupt, home town decision, but alas, the man on the street doesn't have all the time in the world to pursue these things. Still, if a few of them were pursued, it might make decisions more transparent. If it was a decision concerning a LUAS extension, there would be justifications the length of your arm, but for sneaky little parochial decisions outside the pale, they don't even pretend to have justifications.

Bards

as Psychedelic posted, from http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0210/1224311576080.html

Both Wexford & Waterford met the criteria (whatever the criteria was) and the minister chose Wexford.

so a county town with less population is awarded an amalgamated HQ over the Regional Capital with more transport links and a higher population.

How can we ever hope to gain a critical mass in one location (Regional Capital) if each County in the S.E does not recognise and worse, actually works against the Regional Capital.

Don't they (Politicos) realise that without A strong Regional Capital the S.E is doomed to failure with decades of stagnation and decline to look forward to?

thorn in the side

Unusually, the PAC correspondence of the 15th March, 2012 has come on record before the official account of the proceedings of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee of the same date has come on record.

Here is a link to one interesting document: http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/pac/correspondence/2012-meeting321503/%5BPAC-R-361%5DCorrespondence-3.1---Full.pdf

entitled “PAC Correspondence, Meeting of 15 March 2012 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú”.

It is a quite a large pdf file, weighing in at about 15 Mb.s, but not really in a searchable format. Around Page 10 it features a number of briefing documents from Martin Hanevy to Minister Ruairí Quinn in relation to the decisions taken about the designation of the various HQ locations in the revised VEC configuration, including how the decision was arrived at for Waterford – Wexford.

merlante

thorn in the side wrote: »

Unusually, the PAC correspondence of the 15th March, 2012 has come on record before the official account of the proceedings of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee of the same date has come on record.

Here is a link to one interesting document: http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/pac/correspondence/2012-meeting321503/%5BPAC-R-361%5DCorrespondence-3.1---Full.pdf

entitled “PAC Correspondence, Meeting of 15 March 2012 from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú”.

It is a quite a large pdf file, weighing in at about 15 Mb.s, but not really in a searchable format. Around Page 10 it features a number of briefing documents from Martin Hanevy to Minister Ruairí Quinn in relation to the decisions taken about the designation of the various HQ locations in the revised VEC configuration, including how the decision was arrived at for Waterford – Wexford.

Very interesting. Critical page seems to be the 14th page of the document. Seems to favour Waterford city, then pulls back and says decision between Wexford and Waterford a finely balanced one. Then someone puts a tick after Wexford!

Is there any scrap of paper, I wonder, with the final rationale given? My FOI request to the dept of Education and Skills didn't come up with it. Would love to catch them in a lie.

Looks like the usual exercise in giving just enough off the record discretion to "the minister" for him to do his dirty parochial deed. You'd expect this sort of thing from FF, but it just shows that Labour are no more principled.

Most interesting in the Kilkenny/Carlow decision is the point that Kilkenny is a 'hub' in the NSS. Nothing about Waterford being a 'gateway'. Kilkenny gets the nod despite leasing its premises when Carlow owns its building. These are all thinly veiled political strokes.

Pathetically enough, the only criterion that seems to apply in each case has nothing to do with demographics, leasing arrangements or spatial strategies but to do with the Croke park agreement's 45km rule! Absolutely shambolic. Thinking of The week in Politics feature last night about parochialism, you'd have to wonder if parochial politics are just as much stoked by the government's policy of selling favours rather than making plans. Sad to see FG/Lab continuing the tradition.

thorn in the side

If you would like to see what a former Wexford FF politician thinks of Co. Wexford VEC take a look at: http://debates.oireachtas.ie/seanad/2010/10/19/00007.asp.

thorn in the side

Restructuring of Vocational Education Committees: Statements
Tuesday, 19 October 2010

Senator Lisa McDonald:I am delighted the House has this opportunity to discuss VECs. Thus far, the debate has been a little unbalanced in that it is a discussion about the boards of the VECs and there has been great interest in how many elected members will be retained on the VECs. I do not know how relevant this is to the customers, as Senator Quinn put it, namely, the students and parents. Parents are voting with their legs by not sending their children to VEC schools. I do not believe for one minute that is an elitist comment. I want to make it clear that I am not an educational snob. I have served on County Wexford VEC, which is an example of poor administration if ever there was one. In my political career to date, I have encouraged children who have failed in education to return to the system. I commit myself to that daily. I am proud of that work. As the daughter of a teacher, I intrinsically and fundamentally believe in education. Although I honestly think the VEC system has outlived its usefulness, I should mention that some brilliant work is being done by VECs through the vocational training opportunities scheme and the Youthreach programme, for example. Fundamental concepts like adult education and lifelong learning are being developed by the VECs to bring people back into second chance education.

I felt a little jealous as I listened to Senator O’Reilly discussing the excellent provision that is being made by County Cavan VEC. I have discussed the matter with Deputy Conlon too. I accept that some VECs are superb and provide superb services. That is not being done as part of a national policy, however. It depends on the ethos, energy and drive of the chief executive officer of the VEC in question. It may also depend on a lack of political infiltration in the county in question. I do not know very much about the Cavan model but I know that County Wexford VEC is swamped by petty political interventions, for example, on the part of people who are trying to get on certain boards, such as interview boards, or to have certain costs, such as travel expenses, met. That is why I was jealous when I heard about the services being provided in Cavan.

As a republican, I firmly believe every child in this country should be treated equally. I do not accept for one minute that children from disadvantaged areas are being pushed into VECs because they cannot get places in other schools, even if such schools would better suit their needs. The VEC system was established to give vocational training to people who are not academically minded, if that is the right phrase to use, and to ensure such people can use their other intelligence. People who were good with their hands, for example, were given training in carpentry and woodwork. When other secondary schools started to provide such subjects in the 1970s, it was clear this was no longer a unique function of the VECs. We need to examine where the VEC system is going. Do we need VECs to run secondary schools at all? Is a different model needed in this modern era to get certain categories of student through the education system in order that they can provide better lives for themselves, their children and their parents, who should not still be dealing with them in later life? That is the reality and the truth. It is disappointing that no one has spoken about this aspect of the matter to date. I could speak about it ad nauseam if more time were available to me.

There is a need for a survey of enrolment in VECs, for example, to ascertain how the numbers stack up in schools with brilliant teachers. The Minister of State said the fundamental reason for the amalgamation of VECs is that student numbers are falling. I am not sure we need we need to amalgamate the VECs. We should start by cutting the dross from the VECs. A layer of staff might not be needed when the county and town VECs merge. We should be honest and start with voluntary redundancies and other ways of cutting expenditure. I understand that officials from County Wexford VEC went to Jersey last year to attend a seminar on bongo drums. I do not think taxpayers’ money was well spent in that instance. I do not know how it was supposed to prevent a child in a disadvantaged part of County Wexford from dropping out of school. It was ridiculous.

We need to examine all elements of the VECs to see where money is being wasted or is seeping out. The bottom line is that parents will send their children to schools that successfully deliver services. I am aware of children in Wexford town who travel to schools in New Ross and Enniscorthy each day because they do not feel served by the VEC in Wexford town. I do not criticise the VEC school in Bridgetown, the ethos of which is more like that of a community college. It seems that VEC schools perform better when there is less interference. We need to look at that. I am sick of listening to Senators asking how many elected members will remain on the boards of VECs. The reality is that most politicians who are on the boards of VECs are failed politicians who had seats but no longer have them. They wanted some recompense after losing their local authority seats.

Senator Jerry Buttimer:That is a bit harsh.

Senator Lisa McDonald: It is the truth. There are many Fine Gael politicians in that position. County Wexford VEC is controlled by Fine Gael. I do not think Fine Gael has served it very well.

Senator Jerry Buttimer:That is very harsh.

Senator Lisa McDonald:The Senator should check the facts.

Senator Jerry Buttimer:Senator McDonald is impugning the efforts of members of local authorities.

Senator Lisa McDonald:Absolutely. Senator Healy Eames said that one size does not fit all when it comes to vocational education. She argued that all the various VECs provide different services. I do not think that is fair. All children should be treated the same regardless of whether they come from Wexford, Cavan, Dublin or Galway. I accept there is a need to differentiate between inner-city communities with different needs. We need to fight harder for them. I do not know the answer but we need to start by conducting a survey of enrolment and seeing what the children need. The work of the VECs has helped many people to get jobs. Many people with trades have done wonderful work in this country. We should focus on the next moves that are needed to help people to enjoy the benefits of having jobs rather than ending up on the trash heap, which has happened to many people.

If this is all about making savings, I suggest a simple way of doing that would be to provide for a centralised grant system. Responsibility for grants could be taken from the VECs. Westmeath VEC charges €88 to issue a grant. The highest grant price — in excess of €450 — is charged by County Tipperary North Riding VEC. There is huge divergence. There are similar differences in the times taken by VECs to issue grants. This could all be done pretty easily on-line. I do not see why we cannot take this function from the VECs and leave it at that. That would be a much more reasonable way of making changes. We need to get into the VECs to see exactly what changes need to be made. The bottom line is that the customer is the individual student or child. I have to say as a mother that there are many VEC schools to which I would not send my child. I do not say that in an elitist way. I refer to the manner in which services are being delivered. Many VECs are being run in an inefficient and poor manner. I have referred to the example of County Wexford VEC. I appreciate that not all VECs are like Wexford. That in itself is intrinsically unfair.

road_high

merlante wrote: »

Most interesting in the Kilkenny/Carlow decision is the point that Kilkenny is a 'hub' in the NSS. Nothing about Waterford being a 'gateway'. Kilkenny gets the nod despite leasing its premises when Carlow owns its building. These are all thinly veiled political strokes.

Far as I'm aware the newly formed Carlow/KK Vec HQ is to be based in Carlow town, not Kikenny? Unless this has changed in the past months, there was very little made of it locally.

thorn in the side

If you would like to see what a local Wexford Independent / loosely-aligned FF politician / Co. Wexford Councillor thinks of Co. Wexford VEC take a look at:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/accountability-concerns-over-116bn-in-funding-190008.html

or

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/probe-into-691-claim-costs-vec-tens-of-thousands-3077842.html

Alderman, Councillor Padge Reck, P.C. must really hate Co. Wexford VEC!

thorn in the side

It is interesting to note that Councillor Humphrey Deegan, a Member of County Cork VEC, felt that he “was removed from the Audit Committee by the Chairman and Members of the Committee for a perceived breach of procedures. This breach entailed forwarding the document (Audit Report) to the Minister for Education, Minister for Children and the Public Accounts Committee”.

[PAC Correspondence, dated 6th February 2012, from Cllr. Humphrey Deegan - Re: Audit Committee, Youthreach Macroom]

All is not well in Co. Wexford VEC either.

There is a deafening silence from Councillor Jim Moore, (Chairman of Co. Wexford VEC) and Councillor Joe Ryan, (Vice-Chairman Co. Wexford VEC and Chairman of the Audit Sub-Committee) in relation to the multiple breaches to the former Minister for Education and Science, the Public Accounts Committee, the Irish Examiner, the Wexford People Newspapers, and God knows who else, by Councillor Padge Reck.

Reck seems hell-bent on the destruction Co. Wexford VEC, of which he is a member, in order to support his drinking buddy’s High Court Case against Co. Wexford VEC, High Court Record Number: 2008 2974 P. (You'll never guess who the solicitor is, according to the High Court Search page, none other than former Councillor and former Member of Co. Wexford VEC - Lisa McDonald!

thorn in the side

You’ve got to hand it to Reck, but he’s waging a huge one-man, adverse-publicity campaign against Co. Wexford VEC, at little or no cost, as follows:

1) In an unaccredited article, (believed to have been written by David Tucker, Senior Staff Reporter), entitled “Minister O'Keeffe 'most concerned by issues raised / CLLR. RECK ANGRY AT BEING ASKED TO LEAVE MEETINGS”, which appeared in the Wexford People Newspaper, on Wednesday December 02 2009:

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/minister-okeeffe-most-concerned-by-issues-raised-1962037.html

2) In an article by Maria Pepper entitled “Detectives quiz Reck / DPP SAYS NO CASE TO ANSWER OVER ALLEGED THEFT OF VEC DOCUMENTS”, which appeared in the Wexford People Newspaper, on Wednesday September 08 2010:

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/detectives-quiz-reck-2331657.html

3) Or you could take a look at this one by Conor Cullen, entitled “VEC chairman insists 'no major problems' / MOORE RESPONDS TO ONGOING CONCERNS”, which appeared in the Wexford People on Wednesday September 15 2010:

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/vec-chairman-insists-no-major-problems-2341642.html

4) Or this article, again by Maria Pepper, entitled “VEC pays legal firm €22,580 for advice / RECK PENNED CONCERNED LETTER TO MINISTER”, which appeared in the Wexford People on Wednesday December 07 2011:

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/vec-pays-legal-firm-22580-for-advice-2956975.html

In addition to the 2 articles referenced in the previous post:

5) In an article by Conor Ryan, Investigative Correspondent, entitled “Accountability concerns over €1.16bn in funding / Tens of thousands spent after €691 claim queried”, which appeared in the Irish Examiner on Tuesday, April 10, 2012:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/education/accountability-concerns-over-116bn-in-funding-190008.html

6) And finally, in an article by Maria Pepper entitled “Probe into €691 claim costs VEC tens of thousands / BILL EXPECTED TO INCREASE”, which appeared in the Wexford People Newpaper on Wednesday April 11 2012

http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/probe-into-691-claim-costs-vec-tens-of-thousands-3077842.html

He even managed to get John McGuinness, T.D., and Chairman of the Dáil Public Accounts Committee to raise a series of 3 Parliamentary Questions of Ruairí Quinn, T.D, and Minister for Education and Skills, clearly designed to further embarrass Co. Wexford VEC, early in October 2011:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/10/04/00180.asp

In subsequent PAC proceedings in February, 2012, John McGuinness remarked:

“I have looked at other VECs. It would be unfair to name them. The purchase of legal services was the subject of a parliamentary question, therefore I can name the VEC concerned, Wexford VEC. It bought services willy-nilly. I do not think there was any tendering process”.

and later on in the debate he stated:

“In regard to Wexford VEC, I raised the matter of the payment of a colossal amount of money in legal fees in respect of a very minor incident”.

[Report on County Cork Vocational Education Committee 2008

Committee of Public Accounts Debate

Thursday, 9 February 2012]

Do you see any common threads here; e.g. maverick Fianna Fáil members, Maria Pepper and the Wexford People Newspaper.

There's still a continued and deafening silence from the Chairmen of Co. Wexford VEC?

What further stunts is Reck going to pull next, in his continuing campaign to discredit Co. Wexford VEC, of which he, himself is a member? (Talk about loyalty to one's own county !!!)

Who stands most to gain from Reck's actions? They're certainly not of any benefit to the people of Co. Wexford, whom he purports to represent.

He doesn't represent me, for one !!!

thorn in the side

People might like to see the latest information from Ruairí Quinn in relation to the creation of the new educational and training boards. The following link gives the reply by Ruairí Quinn to a series of 3 linked questions by Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/06/26/00116.asp

[Last Updated: 27/06/2012 19:58:53 ]

thorn in the side

More than likely in response to representations from Humphrey Deegan and Padge Reck, to the Public Accounts Committee and the Department of Education and Skills, It has been decided that an external auditor, who is not on the VEC main Committee, will be invited onto the Boards of VECs, and no doubt, in future, onto the new entities, LETBs.

Letter from Seán Ó Foghlú to the PAC

That probably means one less public representative for all of Waterford City and County and Co. Wexford.

[Source: Conor W Ryan, Investigative Correspondent, the Irish Examiner, on Twitter].

thorn in the side

I hear Clare McMahon is to be the CEO of the Waterford / Wexford LETB.

seanaway

I worked for Co Wexford VEC and I can tell you this is one joke of a decision. Clare McMahon CEO of LETB??? God help us all. Look at what she's presided over for the last few years. Parish pump politics of what?

bookworms

Well folks there we have it. Yesterday was the last day of the City of Waterford VEC. After 83 years it will be merged with Counties Waterford and Wexford. Let's see what happens on Monday.

seanaway

What will happen is what always happens. The best will be taken by those with the power to do so. Waterford will get the dregs.

thorn in the side

seanaway wrote: »

What will happen is what always happens. The best will be taken by those with the power to do so. Waterford will get the dregs.

That is a bit short on specifics for my liking.