The failure of Ireland's Immigration polices

ResearchWill

walshb wrote: »

I'll give you another fact. Ireland's welfare system is one of the most generous in the world.

Yes agreed, but the following people can not claim from that system,

Any illegal immigrant
Any person on a student visa
Any asylum seeker
Any person who does not satisfy the habitual residence rule
Any person on a stamp other than stamp 4 who must also be habitually resident
So the only people who can satisfy the habitual residency rule can claim assistance and to qualify you must be legally resident for 2 years and Ireland must be your centre of interest.
The only persons who qualify for assistance are Irish citizen residents, and person who have been granted Asylum.

walshb

ResearchWill wrote: »

Yes agreed, but the following people can not claim from that system,

Any illegal immigrant
Any person on a student visa
Any asylum seeker
Any person who does not satisfy the habitual residence rule
Any person on a stamp other than stamp 4 who must also be habitually resident
So the only people who can satisfy the habitual residency rule can claim assistance and to qualify you must be legally resident for 2 years and Ireland must be your centre of interest.
The only persons who qualify for assistance are Irish citizen residents, and person who have been granted Asylum.

Yes, and like I said, many come here, sweat it out, do whatever it is they have to do, and then they ride the train. I have said this already. And, if it's an entitlement, they damn well get it. Again, as I said, it's utopia here.

ResearchWill

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and like I said, many come here, sweat it out, do whatever it is they have to do, and then they ride the train. I have said this already. And, if it's an entitlement, they damn well get it. Again, as I said, it's utopia here.

At least they pay tax and sweat it out as you put it, what about the many Irish who have never worked and suck from the system from birth to death. A stamp 4 worker only gets LTR or citiizenship after 5 years and are refused either if they have claimed even benefit. If they are on LTR that is renewed every 5 years. Citizenship btw was taking 3 years after you qualify to get. Also stamp 4 visa is now only allowed wher person earns in excess of 60k in some more restricted cases 35k very clever stay around for 8 years earning in excess of 64k a year paying pay a and prsi so you can claim 180 a week really clever that.

ResearchWill

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and like I said, many come here, sweat it out, do whatever it is they have to do, and then they ride the train. I have said this already. And, if it's an entitlement, they damn well get it. Again, as I said, it's utopia here.

BTW I assume it's so good that you are riding the train to utopia on the dole express.

nesf

walshb wrote: »

Yes, and like I said, many come here, sweat it out, do whatever it is they have to do, and then they ride the train. I have said this already. And, if it's an entitlement, they damn well get it. Again, as I said, it's utopia here.

But the numbers don't show that! If what you say is true we should have started seeing large spikes in growth of immigrants on the dole starting in 2006, 2 years after we opened up to immigrants from the EU Accession States. But that isn't in the numbers. What we see is immigrant unemployment rising in tandem with Irish unemployment as the country went into recession and people lost their jobs and found it very hard to find work.

If you're going to make claims please make sure they actually bear a resemblance to reality.

mikemac

ResearchWill wrote: »

To get a visa to enter Ireland is the one most difficult in the world fact.

They might crack down on those English language schools so that are little more then a postal address and an office. The schools exists only on paper and then when new arrivals get here the twenty hour working rule isn't enforced

ResearchWill

mikemac wrote: »

They might crack down on those English language schools so that are little more then a postal address and an office. The schools exists only on paper and then when new arrivals get here the twenty hour working rule isn't enforced

Student visa can only be renewed for 7 years, fees are in school fees are in excess of 5 k a year, they pay PRSI and PAYE, after 7 years can not get any more student visas, time on visa couts towards nothing. And when they leave we have collected 7 years tax and PRSI plus school fees and they get nothing. Yes some schools are shoddy so they don't even get an education, so who is being ripped off.

ResearchWill

http://cso.ie/statistics/placebirthagegroup.htm

According to the CSO of the 600k non Republic of Ireland citizens, in Ireland 300k are from the UK including NI or the USA.

mikemac

ResearchWill wrote: »

And when they leave we have collected .......school fees

I'm not talking about universities, how does the State collect money from private language schools?

Some schools don't even exist, just an office and an address

A Chinese man who bribed a former Department of Justice employee to issue visa extensions to immigrant students in a "highly lucrative scam" has been jailed for two and a half years at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court.

Bin Yang (aged 26) referred Chinese students who had come to Ireland to study English but didn’t met the conditions for a visa extension to Dara Revins (aged 28), who worked in the Garda Immigration Bureau.

Yang, of Belton Park Gardens, Donnycarney, received up to €4,000 from the students for putting them in touch with Revins. Revins, of Windmill Road, Crumlin, would give them the extension and was paid up to €1,500 by Yang for each student.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyaueyqlmhql/#ixzz1VF2JONlh

One out of three are bogus

UP to 10,000 foreign nationals are working here illegally after entering the country on bogus student visas, the Irish Independent has learned.

They represent almost one in three of the students who come here from outside the EU.

The extent of the bogus student scam was revealed last night by Justice Minister Dermot Ahern as the Government prepared to tighten up the legislation on rogue colleges and students abusing the educational system.

The investigation reveals:

One college, which was under investigation in Dublin city, was found to have had no desks, blackboards, books or papers, when inspectors called there. Officials had difficulty gaining access there and after their visit reported back that it was effectively being used as residential accommodation.
Another college, with two branches in Dublin, had no students in attendance on two separate visits by inspectors.
In a third college in Cork where 70 students were registered, there was none present when inspectors called on one occasion and only eight students on another visit.
Evidence uncovered by the Departments of Justice and Education has already resulted in garda investigations into a number of suspected colleges.

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/10000-working-here-illegally-on-bogus-foreign-student-visas-2060300.html

I'm looking at the thread title about failure of immigration policy and this is a failure

CiaranC

walshb wrote: »

Saw it last night, and I felt sorry for some on the programme. I know some here think I am ant foreigner; no, I am not. I am anti sponge...

Youre a ****ing spoofer. Youve been posting your anti immigration drivel for years. Do you think we cant see your post history? Where are the threads where you are attacking Irish spongers on boards?

nesf

mikemac wrote: »

I'm not talking about universities, how does the State collect money from private language schools?

Some schools don't even exist, just an office and an address



One out of three are bogus



I'm looking at the thread title about failure of immigration policy and this is a failure

Finally someone making a point about a failure in immigration policy and actually having some evidence to back it up!

ResearchWill

mikemac wrote: »

I'm not talking about universities, how does the State collect money from private language schools?

Some schools don't even exist, just an office and an address



One out of three are bogus



I'm looking at the thread title about failure of immigration policy and this is a failure

And yes scams run by I assume usually irish, the fees paid produce a profit, especially if no courses are taught. So tax is paid on that, you still ignore that real students get no rights yet pay tax and PRSI and have to leave after 7 years. Any other immigrant who enters and works illegally has no rights. All countries have illegals working but by definition they can not claim social welfare. I also love when Irish politicians talk about immigrants in Ireland who have no visa they are illegal, but the same Irish person in Boston is undocumented. Funny that. Also from what I am been told GNIB are not calling to all schools, looking at timetables, and going into classes, plus all schools are required to return attendance records of all students.

mikemac

I was going to add a line about tax on profits but when they are already involved in scams I wouldn't have much confidence their accounts are correct either.
Crooks don't declare their full income

It's something to be cracked down on and it's easily done. These schools aren't hidden, they all advertise

mikemac

ResearchWill wrote: »

Also from what I am been told GNIB are not calling to all schools, looking at timetables, and going into classes, plus all schools are required to return attendance records of all students.

Did you mean to write not calling?

Looking at the rest of your post I think you meant now calling

ResearchWill

mikemac wrote: »

I was going to add a line about tax on profits but when they are already involved in scams I wouldn't have much confidence their accounts are correct either.
Crooks don't declare their full income

It's something to be cracked down on and it's easily done. These schools aren't hidden, they all advertise

Ya I was waiting for the post back about profits lol. But these schools are being investigated it is getting harder and harder to operate illegal ones. But a big problem is that other countries are giving better service to these students, New Zealand and other small economies like our own are seeing the advantages of goo proper student schemes. Many of the students I know in Ireland are from very good backgrounds at home, often wealthy, but they want to improve there chances at home, and pay Ireland Inc a lot of money in the mean time. Yes there are dodgy schools but there are dodgy tradesmen and shops as well do we claim that all professionals tradesmen and merchants are bad or the system is crap because a few are.

ResearchWill

mikemac wrote: »

Did you mean to write not calling?

Looking at the rest of your post I think you meant now calling

Yup now, bloody iPad.

Rubik.

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

9,711 persons were sent to prison in 2007 compared to 9,700 in 2006.
Of those committed 6,447 were Irish nationals or 66.4% of the total 9,711, which is a decrease of 352 on the
corresponding 2006 figure of 6,799. Almost one third of persons committed in 2007 were non–Irish nationals.
Other EU nationals (excluding Ireland) accounted for 1,354 (13.9%) of persons committed.
Other European nationals accounted for 311 (3.2%), African nationals for 612 (6.3%), Asian nationals for 611 (6.3%) and
Central/South American nationals accounted for 303 (3.1%)

Prison commitals (2007 report) [1]
Irish ******* 6,447 66.4%
All non-nationals 3264 33.6%
EU ********* 1126 11.6%
African ****** 612 6.3%
Asian ******* 611 6.3%
other european 311 3.2%
latin American * 303 3.1%
UK **********228 2.3%
North American 18 .02%


General population by nationality (2006 census) [2]
Irish 3,706,683
All non-nationals 419,733
EU 163227
UK 112,548
Asian 46952
African 35326
Other european 24425
North American 14775
Latin American 6249

Ratio of Prison commital to General population
Latin American 0.04849
African ***** 0.0173
Asian ****** 0.0130
other european 0.0127
All non-nationals 0.0077
EU ********* 0.006898
UK ********* 0.002
Irish ******** 0.00174
North American 0.0012

[1] Statistics-Home (click on 2007 report
[2] CSO - Statistics: Persons usually resident and present in the State on Census Night, classified by nationality and age group

Stats are based on citzenship not ethcinity so a Chinese with irish passport is recorded as Irish AFAIK

The figure for the total number of committals per year is based on the number of individuals committed on remand or for trial, committed under sentence by the courts, committed on ‘alien’/immigration warrants as well as those initially committed on remand/ awaiting trial and then subsequently recommitted on conviction, those recommitted for breaching their parole or temporary release (temporary release and parole are synonymous in an Irish context) and/or those recommitted after absconding.

The figures for the nationality of persons under sentence paints a rather different picture. In December 2008 89.8% were Irish. Page 15...

http://www.irishprisons.ie/documents/IPSannualreport2008e_000.pdf

cavedave

Our streets are actually not as safe as they were in the days of our grandfathers. We have slipped back to a state of affairs that would be intolerable even in Naples

From this interesting article on the history of moral panics in Britain

Laminations

nesf wrote: »

Finally someone making a point about a failure in immigration policy and actually having some evidence to back it up!

I did make this point on page 9 along with other issues on immigration and asylum where I think we are lacking coherent effective policy. With regards to proper regulation of language schools I got the response

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not entirely sure what this has to do with immigration?

nesf

Laminations wrote: »

I did make this point on page 9 along with other issues on immigration and asylum where I think we are lacking coherent effective policy. With regards to proper regulation of language schools I got the response

You didn't back it up with evidence though, if I'm looking at the right post. That's what I'm celebrating. Normally these threads are evidence heavy only on one side of them which is a pity since there are some sensible arguments against certain aspects of immigration.

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

I did make this point on page 9 along with other issues on immigration and asylum where I think we are lacking coherent effective policy. With regards to proper regulation of language schools I got the response

I think I may have misunderstood what you were saying - I don't have a problem with the second point you made in the same post.

Laminations

Oh right because evidence is only now emerging and it wasn't a well-known phenomenon happening for years??

2002 - http://www.emigrant.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=157&Itemid=1
2004 - http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-in-crackdown-on-scam-language-school-abuses-146620.html
2005 - http://www.independent.ie/national-news/colleges-a-front-for-illegal-jobs-scam-227706.html
2009 - http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/visascam-schools-face-crackdown-as-new-rules-approved-1875099.html

August 2011 source

Visa factories

Some language travel agents are concerned that the so called visa factories - cheap schools whose main attraction is an Irish student visa - are giving the country a bad name.

Marcio Chavez, director of Brasil for All, an agency that sends Brazilian students to Ireland, said: ‘‘In my view the Irish authorities should be stricter in giving authorisation to new schools and they should pay more attention to visa factories.

‘‘Unfortunately, the sector of language schools in Ireland at the moment is full of them. They are selling courses for €300 to €500 for a one-year programme. It is easy to perceive that it is impossible to provide proper tuition at these prices’’.

This evidence is everywhere. Sadly when I started a thread asking people to discuss the impact of the rapidly changing demographics in Ireland - 25% of the births are to foreign-national mothers I was met with ridicule. However a similar national conversation was called for in 2002. The director of the Irish Centre for Migration Studies at UCC, Mr Piaras Mac Éinrí, warned the Republic was creating the conditions for newly marginalised communities. This was 9 years ago.

In his address, Beyond Tolerance: Towards Irish Models of Multiculturalism?, Mr Mac Éinrí said: "We must have a policy on integration because it is the right thing to do, not just from the perspective of human rights, but also of enlightened self-interest."


He pointed out: "At least 6 per cent of the total population is composed of immigrants, many of whom have no previous connection with Ireland - a challenge we have never before faced in modern times." Accordingly, he said, "we need to supplement the necessary debate about arrival and reception with one about the long-term picture, that is, integration".


Mr Mac Éinrí defined multiculturalism as "validating diversity and harmony between different groups; instead of building higher walls, it offers security of identity while promoting a creative and dynamic hybridity". However, he said that the loose way in which the term has come to be used in Irish public discourse "is actually unhelpful and even dangerous".


He said: "On the one hand, the rather fuzzy way in which the 'pro-diversity' and anti-racist lobby uses it hardly provides us with an effective road map for defining future policy.

"On the other, the lack of clarity about the term is also fuelling the concerns of those who fear change, sometimes for understandable reasons, and who do not know where it is leading us

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

Eh, a holiday of course. Well documented that they travel to and from..

evidence?

walshb wrote: »

Didn't the ash cloud catch many of them out.

Exposed as a myth.

Reports that the recent Icelandic ash cloud prevented non-Irish nationals from flying into the country to sign on the dole have been exposed as an urban myth by the Department of Social Protection.

It had been suggested that an increase in the number of 'no shows' at social welfare offices in April and May was evidence of 'welfare tourism' with foreign residents unable to jet in to claim their payments. But figures supplied to the Sunday Tribune show that if anything there were fewer 'no shows' for the week ending 18 April, when airport closures were at their height, than when they were operating normally.

Just over 3,500 people failed to sign on the live register in the period ending 18 April when airports were closed, just 2.3% of the 151,000 who were due to sign on.

The number of no shows in the week ending 21 February, when the ash cloud was not a factor, was 3,311, which represents 2.2% of the 152,000 due to sign on. The percentage of no shows in March was 3.9%, the figure for May was 2.2% and the figure for June was 2.5%. "There was no significant difference ... compared to weeks where the volcanic ash was not a factor," a department spokeswoman explained.

In July 2008 then social welfare minister Mary Hanafin changed the system so that all new claimants have to attend their local post office weekly to get paid. Pre-July 2008 claimants are still paid into their bank accounts and so do not have to turn up.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/jul/11/volcanic-welfare-tourism-exposed-as-urban-myth/

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

I think I may have misunderstood what you were saying - I don't have a problem with the second point you made in the same post.

Ok. But on another point I raised about sham marriages you replied

djpbarry wrote: »

Two questions on this: are sham marriages that big a problem? And if so, why should we care? I’m not being glib, I genuinely want to know why any state should be able to prevent two people from marrying. Plenty of people marry for reasons of convenience, regardless of whether are immigrants or not, and policing marriages strikes me as something that is virtually impossible to do. For example, what criteria would a couple have to meet in order to marry?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0817/1224276972826.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1009/1224280691092.html
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR11000007

If marriage was simply a religious afair that gave you the okay from god to bump uglies without him looking then I'd agree that the state shouldn't care. When marriage is recognised by the state and confers benefits on the married couple, tax benefits, residency benefits, even fast-track to citizenship benefits then we should care.

Laminations

cavedave wrote: »

Our streets are actually not as safe as they were in the days of our grandfathers. We have slipped back to a state of affairs that would be intolerable even in Naples

From this interesting article on the history of moral panics in Britain

I'm not sure what this has to do with immigration but it was an interesting article.

However what it says to me is that standards (in some areas) have been slipping generation after generation. Each generation has highlighted problems with the next but this has been ignored or interpreted as simply the generational gap - old people not understanding the culture of the young. Whatever about criticism of musical styles, musical and media content has pushed the boundaries to the point where the camels nose has long been in the tent - and the camel wants to talk about sex and violence. We sexualise our young, we expose them to music and television and games that are filled with dangerous messages. Now I don't suggest we go back to the days of taboo subjects but there is a difference between responsibly teaching your children about sex, and shoving sexually explicit material down their throats to the point where 8 year old girls are dressing like Madonna and 8 year old boys are telliong adults to f*** off. Did we think the bobo doll of society would remain unmolested?

There has definitely been a palpable decline in respect towards others and respect for authority. The lesson of questioning authority (that emerged through cultural revolution propelled by Milgram's experiments in the 1960's) is a good one but it has laid worrying seeds in the minds of the next generations who think they can do what they like to whom ever they like - and then have their actions blamed on others.

walshb

Laminations wrote: »

Ok. But on another point I raised about sham marriages you replied



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0817/1224276972826.html
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/1009/1224280691092.html
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/PR11000007

If marriage was simply a religious afair that gave you the okay from god to bump uglies without him looking then I'd agree that the state shouldn't care. When marriage is recognised by the state and confers benefits on the married couple, tax benefits, residency benefits, even fast-track to citizenship benefits then we should care.

Spot on. This who cares attitude is the reason the country is such a ****ing soft touch for exploitation, by all.

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

Ok. But on another point I raised about sham marriages you replied
...
If marriage was simply a religious afair that gave you the okay from god to bump uglies without him looking then I'd agree that the state shouldn't care. When marriage is recognised by the state and confers benefits on the married couple, tax benefits, residency benefits, even fast-track to citizenship benefits then we should care.

Ok, so about 600-900 marriages in 2009 may have been sham marriages. I remain unconvinced that this is a major problem. I’d be more concerned about the brides to be being mistreated rather than people marrying under false pretences. But it comes back to the question of how do we determine what is a sham marriage and what is not?

But anyway, a simple solution would be to confer benefits on couples based on co-residency rather than whether or not they are married. So in other words, if a couple have been residing together for say, 3 years (and they can prove it), they can apply for joint tax status, regardless of whether or not they are married. Or an even simpler solution would be to do away with the benefits in question, although I accept that this is unlikely to be terribly popular.

walshb wrote: »

This who cares attitude is the reason the country is such a ****ing soft touch...

Relative to?

Mr.Micro

I have to laugh really when I think of the irony of the thread. The failure of Ireland's Immigration polices........ and one could say the success of our emigration, back in full swing again? Blame the foreigners for everything....again. Only 5 minutes ago we had various FF ministers going on missions to recruit workers for Ireland medics, nurses etc. So just because some others may have exploited a few loop holes so what? We Irish are a bastion of integrity and honesty.....Not. Look at any episode of reeling in the years on RTE and always corruption of some sort going on. We are/were happy to export our people for years to live off other countries and when others come to live here its a big deal. The hypocrisy.

walshb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I have to laugh really when I think of the irony of the thread. The failure of Ireland's Immigration polices........ and one could say the success of our emigration, back in full swing again? Blame the foreigners for everything....again. Only 5 minutes ago we had various FF ministers going on missions to recruit workers for Ireland medics, nurses etc. So just because some others may have exploited a few loop holes so what? We Irish are a bastion of integrity and honesty.....Not. Look at any episode of reeling in the years on RTE and always corruption of some sort going on. We are/were happy to export our people for years to live off other countries and when others come to live here its a big deal. The hypocrisy.

Irish people in general have not lived off, or sponged off any countries. Of course you will get some; but most of them worked damn hard, and made amazing contributions to the countries they visited. And, were treated a whole lot worse than many who come here from abroad. No ****ing thousand welcomes, or directions to the local welfare office.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

Irish people in general have not lived off, or sponged off any countries. Of course you will get some; but most of them worked damn hard, and made amazing contributions to the countries they visited. And, were treated a whole lot worse than many who come here from abroad. No ****ing thousand welcomes, or directions to the local welfare office.

Would you please answer the questions put to you in previous posts?

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, so about 600-900 marriages in 2009 may have been sham marriages. I remain unconvinced that this is a major problem. I’d be more concerned about the brides to be being mistreated rather than people marrying under false pretences. But it comes back to the question of how do we determine what is a sham marriage and what is not?

But anyway, a simple solution would be to confer benefits on couples based on co-residency rather than whether or not they are married. So in other words, if a couple have been residing together for say, 3 years (and they can prove it), they can apply for joint tax status, regardless of whether or not they are married. Or an even simpler solution would be to do away with the benefits in question, although I accept that this is unlikely to be terribly popular.

A good suggestion I can agree with

ResearchWill

walshb wrote: »

Irish people in general have not lived off, or sponged off any countries. Of course you will get some; but most of them worked damn hard, and made amazing contributions to the countries they visited. And, were treated a whole lot worse than many who come here from abroad. No ****ing thousand welcomes, or directions to the local welfare office.

I remember it well the Irish in the 80's going across the wather and claiming to English dole in 5 different places each week.

But again dont let a fact get in the way, the only people entitled to dole as has been said before on arrival are no-one fact you can not get around this it is a fact, an asylum seeker is only entitled to social welfare after their claim has been allowed, any other person including a returning Irish Citizen must satisfy the Habitual Residency test. According to CSO we have 600K non nationals in Ireland of which 78K are claiming social welfare, so what if they are claiming they have paid into the system in the vast majority of cases. But why bother giving this information, people do not want to hear it, if a person has a view thats fine but why come on to a site such as this to discuss that view if the person ignores information that goes against their view. All wealty countries have immigration, arent we lucky that some people still think that what we have is better than the life at home. You say that the Irish have contributed to many countries they have gone to, true, yet you ignore the many in this country who work in industry, work as nurses and doctors, who bring new ways of thinking and new trade routes, why constantly look at these people with suspision, when they are a conduit to huge markets, the thousands of Asians in Ireland who can help us sell our products there, the Nigerian's one of the richest people in the World is a Nigerian woorth a few billion where did he make his money in Cement, why was Quinn not going into that market, up to a few years ago 100% of Nigerias cement was imported, it is a country with an economy growing at 8% per year why are we not using the talent we have here to do business. Be thankfull that ireland is a place people want to go to, you think we have it bad now in this country I remember the 80's, it was a country people only wanted to leave.

Mr.Micro

walshb wrote: »

Irish people in general have not lived off, or sponged off any countries. Of course you will get some; but most of them worked damn hard, and made amazing contributions to the countries they visited. And, were treated a whole lot worse than many who come here from abroad. No ****ing thousand welcomes, or directions to the local welfare office.

The point being they still lived off other countries through work or whatever and benefits too no doubt if and when they qualified. Only for all those countries that took us Irish and all that money sent back to Ireland. As I said lets not be hypocritical.

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

A good suggestion I can agree with

That allready exists, a relationship of 2 years can in many cases lead to a stamp 4 permission. Sham marriages is a reason to refuse an application, and marriage registrars are informing Justice if they believe a marriage is sham. If you claim a stamp to remain based on marriage the Dept will visit your house and look for evidence that both parties are living together etc.

UsernameInUse

I believe we should be relaxed when it comes to immigration.

The reason people get so hot and bothered about it is the massive welfare state we have. If it didn't exist, it would matter not one iota who came and left on their own terms. The discrimination Asylum Seekers face is that of a public fully aware of the fact that we're paying for their keep. Refugees are not allowed to work and must live off benefits. That is wrong. Also, I see no harm in permitting a willing individual to come here, get an internship and work their backside off for their families. Hell, let the people who want to work earn a wage and those that don't ever intend to contribute to themselves or their economy see that we are not going to fund and protect their lifestyle choices over those, whether they are Irish by birth or not, that are willing to work and get by in this world.

Nationalism is a disease. What are you protecting? The free movement of people is a human right in my book. Imagine being told, you cannot go somewhere you desire? Peace and love.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

That allready exists, a relationship of 2 years can in many cases lead to a stamp 4 permission. Sham marriages is a reason to refuse an application, and marriage registrars are informing Justice if they believe a marriage is sham. If you claim a stamp to remain based on marriage the Dept will visit your house and look for evidence that both parties are living together etc.

The requirement may already exist but the articles I linked to suggest that sham marriages are taking place and affording people access to Ireland where without the sham marriage they have no right of entry. In many instances, non-EU people are claiming a marriage with an EU-27 citizen for access to Ireland. So if the Dept are visiting houses, what figures have they published and what consequences are meted out if found to be shambolic? For instance whats happening with the case of Matthew Ezani?

EDIT: Just to extend this point - the existence of 'requirements' etc is not enough to ensure a functioning system. And this goes well beyond any immigration system into wider welfare systems etc. (which cost the state far more in fraudulent claims). Single-mothers allowance is heavily abused where mothers are living with the father and claim the payment. Now I'm sure there are plenty enough requirements which state who should and shouldn't receive this supplementary payment but if the checks are not sufficient then the system is abused.

djpbarry

Laminations wrote: »

The requirement may already exist but the articles I linked to suggest that sham marriages are taking place and affording people access to Ireland where without the sham marriage they have no right of entry.

I don't think that's quite right. I believe the non-EU nationals typically have visas and work permits, but the end goal of the sham marriage is permanent residency. Of course, another potential solution would be to assess residency applications independently of marital status, although I can see this presenting practical problems for many legitimate applicants.

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

The requirement may already exist but the articles I linked to suggest that sham marriages are taking place and affording people access to Ireland where without the sham marriage they have no right of entry. In many instances, non-EU people are claiming a marriage with an EU-27 citizen for access to Ireland. So if the Dept are visiting houses, what figures have they published and what consequences are meted out if found to be shambolic? For instance whats happening with the case of Matthew Ezani?

If a marriage is a sham marriage, and same can be proved, and the person has no other right to remain, the the person will have a section 3 letter intention to deport issued, and will be deported. To be honest I have not heard of Matthew Ezani.

In relation to the argument being put forward, in this tread "The Failure of Ireland's Immigration Policies" that due to some people cheating the system the policies have not worked, it a bit like blaming the Criminal Legal system for murder. SOme people will cheat, including Irish people does that mean we get rid of social welfare no we dont, thats throwing baby out with the bath water.

Laminations

djpbarry wrote: »

I don't think that's quite right. I believe the non-EU nationals typically have visas and work permits, but the end goal of the sham marriage is permanent residency. Of course, another potential solution would be to assess residency applications independently of marital status, although I can see this presenting practical problems for many legitimate applicants.

Well not to conflate the asylum system with the immigration system, many marriages spring up to support a failed asylum seeker claiming leave to remain. In either instance it seems the case that people are using sham marriages as a means to stay in the country.

last year almost 400 applications for residence were lodged in Ireland by non EEA nationals on foot of their marriage to Latvian nationals.

walshb

Failing a marriage con job, they simply get an Irish tart and knock her up.
Or, has that loophole been filled?

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

If a marriage is a sham marriage, and same can be proved, and the person has no other right to remain, the the person will have a section 3 letter intention to deport issued, and will be deported. To be honest I have not heard of Matthew Ezani.

http://www.courts.ie/supremecourt/sclibrary3.nsf/%28WebFiles%29/E3E3E53F573DC9C2802578CC0033B69A/$FILE/Ezeani%20%26%20Anor%20v%20MJLR.pdf

He runs the solicitors firm Ceemex and Co. and represented Pamela Izevbekhai.

In relation to the argument being put forward, in this tread "The Failure of Ireland's Immigration Policies" that due to some people cheating the system the policies have not worked, it a bit like blaming the Criminal Legal system for murder. SOme people will cheat, including Irish people does that mean we get rid of social welfare no we dont, thats throwing baby out with the bath water.

I am a strong advocate of a fair but not overly generous welfare system. But I still recognised it is being abused, by Irish people in the most part. I don't criticise the system because I want it gone, I do so because I want it reformed. There have been calls for a coherent immigration policy since 2002 (if not earlier), I want a strong policy which is quick to welcome people who want to contribute but equally quick to weed out the frauds. Our system has loopholes such as bogus English-language school visas and sham marriages. Pointing this out does not mean I want to stop immigrants coming here, other posters may want that, but I do not.

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Well not to conflate the asylum system with the immigration system, many marriages spring up to support a failed asylum seeker claiming leave to remain. In either instance it seems the case that people are using sham marriages as a means to stay in the country.

The very fact that the Minister for Justice amongst others are giving out the exact number of citizens of a named non EU country are marrying citizens of a named EU country, do you really think that no one will check every one of those marriages, I know for a fact, in every case of a marriage to a EU Nation or Irish National and in cases of Partnership, that I am aware of, every one was visited by a Garda, who will ask locals if both are residing in the house as claimed etc. there is no way to stop a person trying to enter a sham marriage but there is a way to find them out if they have. In fact from what I have seen such marriages are approached by all officials maybe with out saying it outright that the marriage is a sham. As I have said a thousand times Ireland guards its Borders. In the total number of non Irish Citizens in ireland half 300k are from the UK and the US, who wants to go down the road of throwing all them out, 166k are from the EU, leaving 134K, so if someone is saying we throw out all UK USA and EU citizens then they better be in for a sharp short shock as the millions of Irish are sent packing. Of the 134k left some 14K are Australian NewZealand and Canadian, again would love to try throwing them all out again as most are more than likely legal. As are most Philippines national at almost 10K so figure is now 110K so again what huge problem, from what I can see at least 2/3 of all non national are legal with 1/3 been from the UK.

ResearchWill

walshb wrote: »

Failing a marriage con job, they simply get an Irish tart and knock her up.
Or, has that loophole been filled?

Nope the Irish Citizen child is pretty much a guaranted one, but only been a banker since March of this year before that people with Irish Citizen children where deported.

walshb

ResearchWill wrote: »

Nope the Irish Citizen child is pretty much a guaranted one, but only been a banker since March of this year before that people with Irish Citizen children where deported.

So, the child born here is entitled to citizenship? Yes, I thought that, of course. But, the parent, are they? Im know there was a change recently that did not guarantee a non national person who was a mother or father to an Irish born child to citizenship. Has that been reversed? March of this year?

ResearchWill

walshb wrote: »

So, the child born here is entitled to citizenship? Yes, I thought that, of course. But, the parent, are they? Im know there was a change recently that did not guarantee a non national person who was a mother or father to an Irish born child to citizenship.

A child born in Ireland is only entitled to Citizenship if and only if at least one parent is an Irish Citizen, or if at least one parent has been legaly living in Ireland for 3 out of the previous 4 years, does not include student visa. If the Child is a Citizen then under the Zambrano decision from the ECJ the non EU parent is entitled to stay. But that permission is based on the non EU parent not getting into trouble and been actively involved in the childs life.

UsernameInUse

Has it not occurred to you that borders is simply a monopoly held by a government and nothing to do with the people? No government, no borders to own.

Laminations

ResearchWill wrote: »

The very fact that the Minister for Justice amongst others are giving out the exact number of citizens of a named non EU country are marrying citizens of a named EU country, do you really think that no one will check every one of those marriages, I know for a fact, in every case of a marriage to a EU Nation or Irish National and in cases of Partnership, that I am aware of, every one was visited by a Garda, who will ask locals if both are residing in the house as claimed etc. there is no way to stop a person trying to enter a sham marriage but there is a way to find them out if they have. In fact from what I have seen such marriages are approached by all officials maybe with out saying it outright that the marriage is a sham. As I have said a thousand times Ireland guards its Borders. In the total number of non Irish Citizens in ireland half 300k are from the UK and the US, who wants to go down the road of throwing all them out, 166k are from the EU, leaving 134K, so if someone is saying we throw out all UK USA and EU citizens then they better be in for a sharp short shock as the millions of Irish are sent packing. Of the 134k left some 14K are Australian NewZealand and Canadian, again would love to try throwing them all out again as most are more than likely legal. As are most Philippines national at almost 10K so figure is now 110K so again what huge problem, from what I can see at least 2/3 of all non national are legal with 1/3 been from the UK.

Eh, why are you debating me as if I want to have all immigrants thrown out? I want loopholes on issues regarding residency closed. I want loopholes in many of our systems closed. I also want tangible consequences for people who fraudulently claim from these systems, whether they be Irish or foreign immigrant or asylum cases.

I DO NOT want us to close our borders to immigrants, cut immigrant support or turf out immigrants. It's a disingenuous straw man and if you want to quote my posts and then argue against some fictitious position then you don't need me for that shadowboxing and I'll refrain from any further contributions

ResearchWill

Laminations wrote: »

Eh, why are you debating me as if I want to have all immigrants thrown out? I want loopholes on issues regarding residency closed. I want loopholes in many of our systems closed. I also want tangible consequences for people who fraudulently claim from these systems, whether they be Irish or foreign immigrant or asylum cases.

I DO NOT want us to close our borders to immigrants, cut immigrant support or turf out immigrants. It's a disingenuous straw man and if you want to quote my posts and then argue against some fictitious position then you don't need me for that shadowboxing and I'll refrain from any further contributions

So active investagation of sham schools, and marriages, the requirement to earn in excess of 64K a year to get green card, asylum application acceptance the lowest in europe. Maxium 7 years on a student visa, no more irish citizen children unless one parent is Irish or legal. Considering Ireland did not have any real immigration untill mid 1990's only 15 years ago. I think if anything the system is too hard, we are the hardest country to get into and stay in fact. The figures speak from them selves. I agree there are problems but to be honest they seem to be trying to head off the illegals at the pass.

While I did quote you I answered the issue you raised, I then went on to raise another Issue I did not intend to say you had a particular view except in relation to the sham marriages claim you made. In relation to the rest it was a general post. I do have a habit of following a stream.

walshb

ResearchWill wrote: »

A child born in Ireland is only entitled to Citizenship if and only if at least one parent is an Irish Citizen, or if at least one parent has been legaly living in Ireland for 3 out of the previous 4 years, does not include student visa. If the Child is a Citizen then under the Zambrano decision from the ECJ the non EU parent is entitled to stay. But that permission is based on the non EU parent not getting into trouble and been actively involved in the childs life.

Thanks for that.

Laminations

My point is that active investigation is not a tangible consequence. People can argue all they like that justice is being done in the banking system as evidenced by 'active investigations'. These are long and often end in nothing. Where wrongdoing is found within Irish systems it is not sufficiently punished. The asylum issue you raise has been debated here. To say that we are toughest solely based on acceptance rate is inaccurate. Of those whose claims are rejected, how many are deported - how many do we actually ensure leave the state? There are 14,000 failed applicants who have essentially just joined another queue in a separate 'leave to remain system'. Now my point is not that we should stop accepting asylum applications, my point is they should be processed faster and mote efficiently with decisions being taken and acted upon.

Active investigation is not good enough if it results in no consequences. The example of Matthew Ezeani I gave would agree with you that people are getting caught, I don't dispute that. But once caught what happens to them?

And this is by no means exclusive to the immigration/asylum system. It happens in White collar crimes and also with welfare fraud. You can defraud the state for years claiming welfare you shouldn't be claiming, and when caught you just get a slap on the wrist and go back onto welfare. Active investigation without consequence us not a deterrent