A way for BER assesors to stand out?

quietsailor

I had a BER assesment carried out last year (was talking about it with the brother today). I had asked that they would provide (and was willing to pay for) a list of improvements that could be made to the house and what effect they would have on the BER rating.

What I got was a generic lump of paper saying "if you fit double glazing you will get a moderate improvement" etc etc. I'm intelligent enough to figure this out for myself - fitting TRV radiator valves on a room with a draughty single glazed window aint going to do much for me.

What I wanted was a form saying:

Fit windows with U value of X = rise in BER from E1 to approx D1*
Fit windows with U value of Y = rise in BER from E1 to approx D2*
and so on for each type of improvement - give me a min and max BER for each type of improvement and describe the improvement in such a way you can compare different brands/manufactureres, ie U values for insulation and windows, BTU and efficency for the boilers etc etc

That gives me ranges to work in, so I know if I buy and get fitted windows of X my costs will drop by so much per year.

Most people can't afford insulation, plus a new boiler & controls plus double glazing ALL at the same time so we'd like to be able to compare improvement types versus their costs to see what can fit in out budgets,

"hmmm windows will cost €3000 for the house but will save €250 on the fuel bill but a new boiler and controls will cost €3200 but save €420 per year - lets go with the boiler then"*

So after all that the question is Is there BER assesors out there who can do this? - I would pay more for that type of a report because for maybe €100 extra it will show me how to make the maximum savings for the minimum costs

* All values are hypothetical and are used just to create examples

fclauson

I would suggest you go to
http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/DEAP/

and read the manual on DEAP

As you original Assessor for the XML file of you build and the load that into the DEAP s/w. You can then alter the various elements and see what effect this has

hope that helps

sinnerboy

There are plenty of BER Assessors who can do this. They will tend not to be the ones who will accept rock bottom prices for the assessment . €150 inc VAT ind SEI fee - what do do people expect ( I'm not saying this is you OP , don't know what you paid ) . Look for someone who is an experienced building professional in the first instance and a BER assessor as simply one of the many services they offer.

sinnerboy

fclauson wrote: »

I would suggest you go to
http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/DEAP/

and read the manual on DEAP

As you original Assessor for the XML file of you build and the load that into the DEAP s/w. You can then alter the various elements and see what effect this has

hope that helps

Except that most people can't or won't put the sustained and tenacious effort into all of this that you do fc.

PaleRider

I carry out this service myself. Sometimes clients would like to know exactly what savings are to be made.

1. I carry out a pre insulation/grant survey to advice on the measures to undertake. If client wants detailed information then i write up a two page report.

This report will include for example attic insulation payback 2 years- new boiler save 600 / year etc. external insulation payback 15 years etc etc.
Rating achieved with work C1 / existing rating G.

I understand where you are coming, but you should always try to source the most experienced building professional. Different assessors will have varying degrees of interest and ability, but i believe what you are asking for is not to difficult.

MicktheMan

I'll preface what I say below with the fact that I was one of the original ber assessors registered in 2006 but have since de-registered because of the farce the whole ber system has become and the negative affect this has had on my business image.

In my experience of surveying buildings for heat loss mechanisms for clients who are serious about reducing their heating bills significantly while improving their comfort levels in their homes, the most significant part of the survey by far is the air tightness test. No house, no matter how good the boiler/distribution/controls are or how well it is insulated or what u value the glazing is etc, will perform anywhere where it ought to if there is significant air infiltration into and out of the house.
This fact is, to my eyes anyway, completely lost on the powers that be in that there is no requirement to have a house pressure tested for the purposes of a BER and (this really annoys me considering the millions of public money been dished out in grants) there isn't even a grant to have the test done as part of the SEAI grant scheme.

To the OP:
if you are seroius about reducing your heating bills then don't rely on a BER rating improvement alone to justify an energy upgrade.

No6

In some of the earliest versions of DEAP there was some costs but SEAI realised that they could land themselves in very hot water so to speak with it. The problem with DEAP is it is a standardised methodolgy which tries to average everything, so the energy DEAP (your BER assessment) says you are using is not what you acutally use but only what you would use if you were the SEAI's Mr Average living in your Average House (a 3 bed Semi) with your Average wife and 2.5 average kids!!

One of the biggest difficulties with the DEAP systems particurarly with existing houses is that it uses defaults for anything that cannot be fully substantiated take for example your windows. it you don't have the original maunfacturers certificates says what U Value they were you use a default which will invarably be worse than the actual window so you may be replacing a window thats not as bad as you think with one that only a bit better.

Boiler replacement is another issue, loads of people are replacing relatively recent boilers which in many cases are around 85% efficient with boilers that are 95% efficient thats a saving of 10% only??

What you should do if you are considering investing in an energy upgrade is find a professional who is also a BER assessor to give you independant advice which can be talored to your budget, can give you the figures you want as comparisons but not as levers to get you to put more in than you can afford. The cheapest way to improve your BER is to relace all your internal light bulbs with low energy ones, 100 should do most houses and gets you 10 points on the scale. I have seen changes to insulation costing hundreds or thousands giving far less!!!

quietsailor

Thanks for all the replies folks, the consenus is that such assesors exist - you just have to pay more for them, which I will be doing when I start renovating the house once I get a job again. Who knows if any of you work in Cork City I may even be asking you to assess the house

fclauson wrote: »

As you original Assessor for the XML file of you build and the load that into the DEAP s/w. You can then alter the various elements and see what effect this has

Its been over a year now so I don't know if I could get it off the company, I'm a Marine Engineer rather than Civil/Construction Engineer so it wouldn't make full sense to me anyway; that's why I employed that company

sinnerboy wrote: »

There are plenty of BER Assessors who can do this. They will tend not to be the ones who will accept rock bottom prices for the assessment . €150 inc VAT ind SEI fee - what do do people expect ( I'm not saying this is you OP , don't know what you paid ) . Look for someone who is an experienced building professional in the first instance and a BER assessor as simply one of the many services they offer.

I rang 7 companies, 4 called back/answered and I picked the quote that was in the middle to low range.

PaleRider wrote: »

I carry out this service myself. Sometimes clients would like to know exactly what savings are to be made.

This report will include for example attic insulation payback 2 years- new boiler save 600 / year etc. external insulation payback 15 years etc etc.
Rating achieved with work C1 / existing rating G.
That is EXACTLY what I wanted.

I understand where you are coming, but you should always try to source the most experienced building professional. Different assessors will have varying degrees of interest and ability, but i believe what you are asking for is not to difficult.

Unfortunately I thought I was getting an Engineer who instinctively knew how to use the software rather than a number puncher.

No6 wrote: »

The cheapest way to improve your BER is to relace all your internal light bulbs with low energy ones, 100 should do most houses and gets you 10 points on the scale. I have seen changes to insulation costing hundreds or thousands giving far less!!!

Bloody hell, I never realised such a small thing could make such a difference, I had replaced the boiler the year before with one of the 95% condensing ones and was delighted with myself for my forethought - It would have been better to replace all the lightbulbs :eek: (Max gain for min cost)

Dardania

quietsailor wrote: »

Bloody hell, I never realised such a small thing could make such a difference, I had replaced the boiler the year before with one of the 95% condensing ones and was delighted with myself for my forethought - It would have been better to replace all the lightbulbs :eek: (Max gain for min cost)

In terms of kWh consumption, NEAP (as opposed to DEAP for domestic BERs) scales electricity used on site as against what it take to generate it & transmit it at 2.7, compared to 1.1 for gas - any reduction in electrical consumption is far better in the BER than mechanical (within reason of course) - target fixed outlet CFL lamps, water pumps, boiler pumps, fans etc...

With your 95% efficient boiler...are you running it in condensing mode? i.e. is there an external wall temperature sensor wired to the boiler to allow it weather compensate, and therefore condense? This is an issue I feel DEAP overlooks - one can install condensing boilers til the cows come home, but unless it's run in condensing mode, with over sized rads, it won't be as efficient as a good conventional one...

caesarthechimp

Dardania wrote: »

one can install condensing boilers til the cows come home, but unless it's run in condensing mode, with over sized rads, it won't be as efficient as a good conventional one...

A simple pipe stat can keep the return temp down. Below 50-55 degrees C return they are generally reckoned to be running in condensing mode, but a weather compensator would be better alright.
As most older rads were oversized anyway due to poor insulation & windows in the houses, the rads issue is reckoned to be a myth in this useful guide.
Also condensing boilers are always more efficient, even when not operating in full condensing mode.

maddragon

I also provide this service. However, when I justify my price to people by explaining the additional information I will give them I am usually told that they are not interested and just want the cert for compliance purposes.

Dardania

maddragon wrote: »

I also provide this service. However, when I justify my price to people by explaining the additional information I will give them I am usually told that they are not interested and just want the cert for compliance purposes.

Rest assured, if I was to get a BER cert done to my property I'd want the better service. But then, I'd be in the minority. And don't own property!

Do you offer it as a cost option when doing a BER cert?

maddragon

I do it anyway and my prices are as low as I can possibly go - €135-€170 all inclusive depending on the size of the house. Still difficult to get business. I am a Chartered Civil Engineer and Certified Energy Manager BTW.

sydthebeat

The first question i always as when asked o quote for a BER is "is this a property you want to sell or rent, or is the BER in order to make your dwelling more energy efficient?" The answer will inform my quote.

I see this as a case in which the client needs to describe the brief properly to the assessor, and also ask the right questions to determine if the assessor is capable of providing the service required. yes, i agree that a stupid situation, but its a situation which has arisen because of the open-door policy allowed when training the assessors. In my biased opinion, no assessor should be allowed offer retrofitting advice without having a proper level 7 or above qualification in a building science course, or at least 7 years full time experience in an architectural office.

quietsailor

Hey Folks,

I'm the OP that created this thread and was feeling bad as I neglected to thank a few people for their advice because I was sitting exams and just ignored everything else. (Better say it now before I forget again THANKS )

Its good to see there are more BER assesors willing to provide this service. Any friend I talk to now about who is getting a BER get pointed in the direction of these types of BER even if they cost more. Hopefully people will start getting the point in Ireland and use the BERs rather than just getting them to satisfy legislation.

@Dardania: I don't have any weather compensator that I can see and actually I'm worried about a cold weather thermostat - ie does the boiler fire when the outside air drops near freezing. Has anyone come across an online resource that lists boilers that have these fitted or are they installed on boilers on a case by case basis?