Anyone with QSat?

Sean_Ludawg

pat13wx wrote: »

Do you know anything more about the 11pm to 6am deal, is it for example restricted to only those websites QSat direct you to.

No problem what so ever I'm happy to help. I have been assured that with the 'nightsaver' add-on purchased, between 11p.m and 6a.m, you do not have any bandwidth restrictions on any site. The sites which they recommend are given in an attempt to combat torrents and illegal downloads. I would agree that 5Gb is quite slim and as a steam user I was dubious. I would see the nightsaver as a saving grace of these bandwidth limits.

ruffmut

What bugs me about satellite broadband is that I am supposed to have 10Gb download and 1Gb upload anytime per month with tooway, provided through 3 who in turn subcontracted to Onwave on the NBS.

Streaming, web content and skype is classified as a download so youtube and the likes are out. If you watch a few clips, download a few albums your speed will get throttled right back and dial up wood be faster.

It you read the terms and conditions of the package from Onwave, your monthly allowance is broken down to a monthly, weekly, daily and then hourly allowance. So 10Gb is impossible to achieve even though it is supposed to be anytime from 3.

But I am stuck with this as I have nothing else available to me.

pat13wx

Sean_Ludawg wrote: »

No problem what so ever I'm happy to help. I have been assured that with the 'nightsaver' add-on purchased, between 11p.m and 6a.m, you do not have any bandwidth restrictions on any site. The sites which they recommend are given in an attempt to combat torrents and illegal downloads. I would agree that 5Gb is quite slim and as a steam user I was dubious. I would see the nightsaver as a saving grace of these bandwidth limits.

Thank you Sean for that helpful reply. The fact that the night saver does not restrict you to specific websites - as I was previously informed - makes things very different.

watty

ruffmut wrote: »

... you read the terms and conditions of the package from Onwave, your monthly allowance is broken down to a monthly, weekly, daily and then hourly allowance. So 10Gb is impossible to achieve even though it is supposed to be anytime from 3.

Complain to DCNER. That contravenes the "3" NBS agreement with Government.

"3" are saving money by using ordinary retail package instead of the spec laid down by contract.

tails_naf

I hope my sums are wrong here - but taking the 2Mbit /2 GB cap package - I think this means:

2 GB = 2000 Megs = approx 66Meg allowed per day.
2Mbit sustained = 0.25Meg/second, or 15Megs per minute.
66Meg / 15 = 4.4

So in 4.4 minutes of using the full bandwith, each day, I'd hit the cap.
Not great really. If the cap was raised to 10GB, it would be workable, but I can't see 2GB cutting it.

Does anyone know what happens when you exceed the cap - is the connection off / throttled, or do you get a huge bill?

Will the ping really be in the 600+ region? If so, I can imagine it will hurt most non-gaming things like skype, etc..

watty

The ping has to travel the more than 36,000km distance to / from satellite FOUR times!

Send:
You -> Up -> Satellite -> Down-> Earth station -> fibre -> node -> "internet" -> server

Reply:
server -> "internet" -> node -> fibre -> Earth station -> Up -> Satellite -> Down-> You

You get throttled to nearly nothing or cut off depending on supplier. The capacity doesn't exist to have higher cap.

Gaming and many "Ajax" applications are impossible. "Google Docs" and other "Cloud" applications would be "interesting".

Basically Satellite is "last resort" and SO MANY resellers have gone bust leaving people with no connection that it's madness to go with other than long established major companies that have other businesses.


Internet traffic can also involve ARP and DNS such that latency can easily mount to over 1200mS (1.2 seconds) per application transaction.

They use ARP and DNS caching and replace TCP /IP over the link with alternate protocol and spoof packet acknowledgements. VPN traffic is invisible to these "acceleration" techniques so performance of it is terrible unless the Earth Station is providing custom VPN remote client. (Corporate packages, not usually domestic).

watty

Sean_Ludawg wrote: »

I would see the nightsaver as a saving grace of these bandwidth limits.

Only if you are an unemployed "creature of the night". Not for most normal people, which is why it can be offered on virtually all satellite packages from most resellers. Of course they don't need traffic management at times that almost no-one in Ireland wants to use the Internet.

It's easy to offer an extra that costs nothing and almost no-one wants.

pat13wx

watty wrote: »

Only if you are an unemployed "creature of the night". Not for most normal people, which is why it can be offered on virtually all satellite packages from most resellers. Of course they don't need traffic management at times that almost no-one in Ireland wants to use the Internet.

It's easy to offer an extra that costs nothing and almost no-one wants.

Indeed. But there is always the option for those using nightsavers to use a download manager, many of which are freely available on the net. With a download manager you can set up torrents etc to down load at certain times....you can even set them to stop downloading at pre set times too, and to even turn your laptop off.

An example can be found here:

http://www.freedownloadmanager.org

tails_naf

watty wrote: »

The ping has to travel the more than 36,000km distance to / from satellite FOUR times!

Send:
You -> Up -> Satellite -> Down-> Earth station -> fibre -> node -> "internet" -> server

Reply:
server -> "internet" -> node -> fibre -> Earth station -> Up -> Satellite -> Down-> You

You get throttled to nearly nothing or cut off depending on supplier. The capacity doesn't exist to have higher cap.

Gaming and many "Ajax" applications are impossible. "Google Docs" and other "Cloud" applications would be "interesting".

Basically Satellite is "last resort" and SO MANY resellers have gone bust leaving people with no connection that it's madness to go with other than long established major companies that have other businesses.


Internet traffic can also involve ARP and DNS such that latency can easily mount to over 1200mS (1.2 seconds) per application transaction.

They use ARP and DNS caching and replace TCP /IP over the link with alternate protocol and spoof packet acknowledgements. VPN traffic is invisible to these "acceleration" techniques so performance of it is terrible unless the Earth Station is providing custom VPN remote client. (Corporate packages, not usually domestic).

Thanks for the info - it's a shame - I was actually hoping to use this to work remotely 1 day a week - via VPN. For my job, I sometimes have to remote login to interactive sessions on work computers - so anything above 500ms would be pretty painful (and even that is probably a stretch!). I guess satellite is not an option for me.

Yet another downside of our spotty rural broadband coverage - those who commute, don't really have an option of working at home, even partially.

Thing is - I'm not really that rural. 1/2 hour drive outside cork doesn't sound too crazy to me..

I wonder how much it would cost the government to roll out wi-max, or antenna based internet to the rurual locations. i.e. how many of these setups would the 150 million they gave to three buy us?

Does anyone know how many area there is no coverage from basic dsl - and what area in terms of square miles these are?

D1stant

Satelite Broadband is an oxymoron

I'd like to see Ireland do something like this

http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2010/12/vodafone-germany-intros-lte-service-and-pricing/

In Germany the Goverment gave VF cheap LTE spectrum under the condition that they service rural areas with it. 7/21/50Mb services all over Germany

pat13wx

D1stant wrote: »

Satelite Broadband is an oxymoron

I'd like to see Ireland do something like this

http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2010/12/vodafone-germany-intros-lte-service-and-pricing/

In Germany the Goverment gave VF cheap LTE spectrum under the condition that they service rural areas with it. 7/21/50Mb services all over Germany

If only!

Any chance Vodafone would set up the same service here?

D1stant

pat13wx wrote: »

If only!

Any chance Vodafone would set up the same service here?

I think any of the operators would jump at it if the terms for spectrum were attractive enough

But LTE will happen anyway, and probably before the Q-Sat 2 year rip off contract is up!

pat13wx

D1stant wrote: »

I think any of the operators would jump at it if the terms for spectrum were attractive enough

But LTE will happen anyway, and probably before the Q-Sat 2 year rip off contract is up!

Something to look forward to, then. Thanks for that.

Dr. Nick

GIMME GIMME GIMME!!!

watty

LTE will make no difference.

Also if LTE is faster and more cap (only possible if MMDS is closed and a single RAN) then it will cost x2 to x4 existing 3G/HSPA.

LTE will hardly affect anything. Also no-one is in a hurry to deploy. Look at the profits they are not making from data now. The profits are all on voice and SMS. LTE does nothing really for that.

In Germany LTE is MORE EXPENSIVE than Broadband or 3G/HSPA. It's sold there as an "on the go" Mobile complement for Business users that already have Broadband at home and office. It's not able to support replacement of Fixed Broadband.

tails_naf

watty wrote: »

LTE will make no difference.

Also if LTE is faster and more cap (only possible if MMDS is closed and a single RAN) then it will cost x2 to x4 existing 3G/HSPA.

LTE will hardly affect anything. Also no-one is in a hurry to deploy. Look at the profits they are not making from data now. The profits are all on voice and SMS. LTE does nothing really for that.

In Germany LTE is MORE EXPENSIVE than Broadband or 3G/HSPA. It's sold there as an "on the go" Mobile complement for Business users that already have Broadband at home and office. It's not able to support replacement of Fixed Broadband.

It's clear that the theoretical speeds of LTE are well beyond 3G/HSPA - but is the range and/or ability to handle the contention any better that what we have now? If so, I can imagine a lot of people wanting it - even if it still is NOT broadband, I would take it.

Any improvement is welcome!

watty

No, the speeds at the same signal level and channel width are actually almost the same.

The oft quoted 100Mbps is for a 20MHz channel and perfect signal with only one user connected. The peak 21Mbps of HDSPA+ is on a 5MHz channel and with only one user connected.

With 10 users connected downloading simultaneously the LTE system is about x2 more efficient than 3G (i.e. in a 5Mhz channel you might get 0.5Mbps instead of 0.25Mbps during busy periods).

The "42Mbps" HSPA+ is in fact one user with perfect signal using all of two 5MHz channels.

The higher speeds are all only available either in WiFi sized cells or close to the mast. At average size cells the speed for only one user connect is on average about 0.6Mbps per MHz of spectrum on both systems.
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/img2.html

Note on those diagrams 21Mbps is a small blob 1/8th area in centre of 14.4Mbps. Inverse Square law. The higher speeds only work at shorter distance as better Signal to Noise is needed.

LTE can be in 5MHz or 20MHz channels. If Ofcom and Comreg get their way of "Competition" and maximising revenue then there may only be 5MHz channels.
LTE in 5MHz channel http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/img10.html

Also because users are not evenly spread and small numbers of simultaneous transfer (i.e. YouTube) per mast sector is possible if you split the spectrum to 3 or 4 operators instead of one wholesale operator (RAN), then the distribution curve of people with very fast speeds (one user in 5MHz) or very slow speeds (20 users in 5MHz) is spread wider instead of narrower peak around the "Average".

There is no more range, except on 800MHz "TV Digital dividend". But more range means bigger cells in Rural areas (pointless in a town as you need LESS range) and simply means less dead spots and fewer masts. It won't mean better performance.

See also http://www.techtir.ie/comms

The reasons for LTE are:

• One back end infrastructure, IP only. Voice is carried as IP data. 3G shares the air interface capacity with separate protocols for voice and data.
• Easier to have one single Wholesale network with all channels (RAN)
• Different channel sizes, not just 5MHz
• OFDM rather than CDMA on downlink improves capacity when congested
• Less problems with Cell Breathing
• Everything can be on IPV6

The "speed" thing is only x4 and only if you have x4 amount of spectrum. In same size channel with only one user there is no real difference.

tails_naf

Excellent post, thanks Watty.

If improvement in terms of spectrum usage efficiency is not really changing, then I guess it means the technology is probably running close to some theoretical limit. If this is true the only way to go is to offer more spectrum, to cover larger chinks per user (or more users per cell) more users - is this correct?

I guess the holy grail for us rural users is not just around the corner so.

The cell breathing thing is interesting. I know at night time, my connection is much faster than in the day time. I assume this is either cell breathing, or else the limit on data bandwidth that the cell tower as back to its main data pipe is at capacity. I wonder is there a way to tell - i.e. if I could measure the SNR on the link at different times of the day, could I estimate if cell breathing was the cause? And in this case, would a directional antenna be the solution?

andy99

I have the Digiweb Sat BB for the past 2 years and while pricey it has never broken down. They are now using a neater 40cm approx dish installed at €280. You get 4gig Traffic at about 4000kbs Down and 500kbs upload. This costs €20 a month for first 3 months and €40 after that. I am about 40kms from Dublin and nothing else works!!

Sponge Bob

Far as I can see the total capacity of Astra 2 Connect is 350mbits ....for the WHOLE OF EUROPE. This estimate based on 10 x 33mhz transponders on Astra 3b and none on Astra 3a. Someone do tell me if I missed anything.

A small rural exchange frequently has 1000mbits of backhaul....three times the entire capacity of Astra2Connect.

Many mobile phone masts, sometimes even ones in rural areas, have the same thruput backhaul capacity as all of Astra2 Connect. With LTE and maybe 6 sectors instead of the usual 3 a mobile phone mast will be able to deliver more usable thruput than Astra2 Connect ever can.

watty

Well a phone mast maybe 1/3rd back haul and 1/50th average throughput. But one Fixed wireless site easily beats Astra2Connect, for ALL of Europe.

If anything you maybe over estimate the Astra2Connect capacity a lot.

It's full anyway. Astra has signed contracts with Gilat for Ka terminals for the next generation Ka Band which might be available 2013.

But Eutelsat is now touting Ka band more for Digital Cinema and Regional TV. Satellite is BEST at broadcasting, rubbish for two way data.

LTE won't be broadband and even Ka band services can't compete with it for capacity or price.

One FTTC cabinet for one street can have x3 to x15 the capacity of ALL satellite services to Ireland combined!

watty

Well a phone mast maybe 1/3rd back haul and 1/50th average throughput. But one Fixed wireless site easily beats Astra2Connect, for ALL of Europe, on AVERAGE throughput!

If anything you maybe over estimate the Astra2Connect capacity a lot.

It's full anyway. Astra has signed contracts with Gilat for Ka terminals for the next generation Ka Band which might be available 2013.

But Eutelsat is now touting Ka band more for Digital Cinema and Regional TV. Satellite is BEST at broadcasting, rubbish for two way data.

LTE won't be broadband and even Ka band services can't compete with it for capacity or price.

One FTTC cabinet for one street can have x3 to x15 the capacity of ALL satellite services to Ireland combined!

dianehyde

DonJose wrote: »

Terrible comparison, a person who could receive UPC would never look at this service. Satellite broadband is for many a last chance option for receiving broadband.

Yes it is a last ditch attempt for some people - myself included.
Previously the satellite installation and monthly costs were very high, I cannot get digiweb, wimax, eircom, UPC or any other conventional broadband. I have a dongle which cuts out every 7 minutes or so, we are surrounded by trees so i have applied for qsat and heres hoping...

pat13wx

dianehyde wrote: »

Yes it is a last ditch attempt for some people - myself included.
Previously the satellite installation and monthly costs were very high, I cannot get digiweb, wimax, eircom, UPC or any other conventional broadband. I have a dongle which cuts out every 7 minutes or so, we are surrounded by trees so i have applied for qsat and heres hoping...

I hope it is successful for you. Let us know how it all works out.

Evil_little_me

For all the people who have applied for Qsat, have you gotten a call back yet? I'm still waiting.

We'll call you tomorrow was moved back to last weekend or last Monday which has now turned into this weekend or Monday coming...

Sigh.

watty

You'd be better with a long time established and experienced operator.

pat13wx

watty wrote: »

You'd be better with a long time established and experienced operator.

Couldn't agree more.

There have been instances of what amounted to be fly-by-night Satellite or Wireless type BB who have taken the money and ran, so if one has no alternative, then a long-time, reputable operator is the best way to go. Having said that, if in time to come the likes of Q-Sat proves to be a reliable service, then their customers will be happy and only have good, positive stuff to report on forums such as this one. Time will tell.

watty

But they have Zero infrastructure and no satellite gear. They are only the equivalent of the guy in the Shopping centre "selling" Sky packages.

They are not an ISP either.

pat13wx

watty wrote: »

But they have Zero infrastructure and no satellite gear. They are only the equivalent of the guy in the Shopping centre "selling" Sky packages.

They are not an ISP either.

I hear you. The current service is of course very limited, but it may become better as time goes on.

You mentioned Sky. I wonder could Sky at some point provide BB here in Ireland. I mean via their Satellite service?

watty

No, because Satellite doesn't do Broadband. It does horrendous latency Internet very expensively.

Sky may resell eircom here.

In the UK they have their own DSL based ISP (about 1/3rd of exchanges) and re-sell BT for the rest.

Geostationary Satellite will never be "better as time goes on". You can't solve the problem of the distance above the equator of 36,000km.

The solution is for the Government to take action. Then only about 100 people will be looking for Satellite instead of 5,000.

Corrupt 3rd world Governments are doing this better.


Sky in fact own no satellite infrastructure/Services. They rent Broadcast space from Satellite operators.

Qsat don't even rent any Satellite Infrastructure. They are simply a sales agent that organizes local terminal installation for the real opertators.

pat13wx

watty wrote: »

No, because Satellite doesn't do Broadband. It does horrendous latency Internet very expensively.

Sky may resell eircom here.

In the UK they have their own DSL based ISP (about 1/3rd of exchanges) and re-sell BT for the rest.

Geostationary Satellite will never be "better as time goes on". You can't solve the problem of the distance above the equator of 36,000km.

The solution is for the Government to take action. Then only about 100 people will be looking for Satellite instead of 5,000.

Corrupt 3rd world Governments are doing this better.


Sky in fact own no satellite infrastructure/Services. They rent Broadcast space from Satellite operators.

Qsat don't even rent any Satellite Infrastructure. They are simply a sales agent that organizes local terminal installation for the real opertators.

Thanks for that, I am learning more about this of late and see now there really are major differences between actual broadband and what is available via Satellite. The problem for many here in Ireland is they can only go with what's available to them and I think this is where Satellite provides some sort of alternative.

As things stand I am still with Eircom, they - in fairness - have not charged me any extra for vastly going over my monthly allowance...I really pushed it this week and the bill just arrived and not a mention of the extra usage. They might be slow, no, they are slow, but at least they're reliable and other than speed issues I have never really had any problems connecting to the net.

Evil_little_me

I got an email this morning containing the application form for the service.

The total initial cost is €168.95. That includes the installation fee (€99), the price of the 'Gold' package (€59.95) and the additional option of the unlimited nightime bandwidth (€10).

pat13wx

Evil_little_me wrote: »

I got an email this morning containing the application form for the service.

The total initial cost is €168.95. That includes the installation fee (€99), the price of the 'Gold' package (€59.95) and the additional option of the unlimited nightime bandwidth (€10).

Good luck with it. Please let us know what you think once it's all set up.

T42

Evil_little_me wrote: »

I got an email this morning containing the application form for the service.

The total initial cost is €168.95. That includes the installation fee (€99), the price of the 'Gold' package (€59.95) and the additional option of the unlimited nightime bandwidth (€10).

What speeds did you got for that price, what is your normal daily allowance.
Very interested to know how the allowance will work out.
How long before they install.

T42

watty wrote: »

But they have Zero infrastructure and no satellite gear. They are only the equivalent of the guy in the Shopping centre "selling" Sky packages.

They are not an ISP either.

Would you test a satellite broadband system if was provided to you and give an honest report on your findings.

Hal Emmerich

T42 wrote: »

Would you test a satellite broadband system if was provided to you and give an honest report on your findings.

Where does Watty work?

bealtine

T42 wrote: »

Would you test a satellite broadband system if was provided to you and give an honest report on your findings.

Testing won't change the facts no matter how you think it might.

pat13wx

bealtine wrote: »

Testing won't change the facts no matter how you think it might.

Perhaps. But then again it might provide the opportunity to demonstrate Satellite BB isn't as bad as some believe.

pat13wx

T42 wrote: »

Would you test a satellite broadband system if was provided to you and give an honest report on your findings.

If Watty isn't available to test the product, then I'd be happy to do so and report accordingly.

T42

pat13wx wrote: »

Perhaps. But then again it might provide the opportunity to demonstrate Satellite BB isn't as bad as some believe.

This would be my point also and until you know the facts then it's difficult to know whether the service has improved. If you buy this months What Satellite they do a full analysis of the Tooway KA-Sat Broadband Service and they rate it fairly highly, giving it an 86% mark, plus the speeds are very genuine compared to what most of the ISP out there are showing as their headline speeds.

pat13wx

T42 wrote: »

This would be my point also and until you know the facts then it's difficult to know whether the service has improved. If you buy this months What Satellite they do a full analysis of the Tooway KA-Sat Broadband Service and they rate it fairly highly, giving it an 86% mark, plus the speeds are very genuine compared to what most of the ISP out there are showing as their headline speeds.

My own understanding, made up from researching the Internet on Satellite BB and in particular Tooway KA-Sat is growing much more appreciative than when I first started looking into alternatives to Eircom, or fixed-line BB providers. I do not have Tooway or any Satellite BB, my only BB at present is a very slow Eircom connection. It is, however, consistent and I never have trouble getting on line, but it is slow, hence the reason I am looking into alternatives.

I am not into gaming on line, so latency issue might not affect me as much as other. But I do like to surf the net when necessary and download data without too many restrictions. However, I believe the 25Gig allowance package from certain Tooway providers would do me. Thing is the price tag is way beyond what I want to pay for a monthly package.

jor el

T42 wrote: »

Would you test a satellite broadband system if was provided to you and give an honest report on your findings.

T42, have you any connection to any satellite ISP?

T42

jor el wrote: »

T42, have you any connection to any satellite ISP?

Not directly, I'm a user of different services and would like a good evaluation of the satellite broadband, I'm very interested in it and think it is the way forward for rural areas which let's be honest will never see a high speed reliable service from any of the larger ISP. This could be a ready made solution without costing an arm and a leg to put in infrastructure, like we have spent on Fiber networks, and only 10% usage, huge waste.

jor el

Then how are you proposing to arrange trials and evaluations, if you have no connection to the suppliers? It seems a little strange to me.

Evil_little_me

pat13wx wrote: »

Good luck with it. Please let us know what you think once it's all set up.

Will do.

T42 wrote: »

What speeds did you got for that price, what is your normal daily allowance.
Very interested to know how the allowance will work out.
How long before they install.

Here's all the packages they're offering: http://qsat.ie/broadband/

Well, we'll be paying €69.95 monthly, for the Gold package and the €10 fee for the nightime unlimited bandwidth.

Basically, they said to send the forms away and when they recieve them, they're going to call us and discuss everything before taking the inital cost via direct debit. Until then, I really don't know anything concerning installation and such, only that there's a waiting list.

pat13wx

Evil_little_me wrote: »

Will do.



Here's all the packages they're offering: http://qsat.ie/broadband/

Well, we'll be paying €69.95 monthly, for the Gold package and the €10 fee for the nightime unlimited bandwidth.

Basically, they said to send the forms away and when they recieve them, they're going to call us and discuss everything before taking the inital cost via direct debit. Until then, I really don't know anything concerning installation and such, only that there's a waiting list.

Apparently it's a 4-6 week wait for installation. But it might be quicker now you have the paperwork sorted.

Evil_little_me

pat13wx wrote: »

Apparently it's a 4-6 week wait for installation. But it might be quicker now you have the paperwork sorted.

Perhaps, but I'm not going to hold my breath though. I was waiting up until Monday for any kind of feedback from them. They didn't call me back like they said. I just took a chance and rang them to see what the hold up was and the guy I was speaking to took my email address.

Like magic, I've got the paperwork in my inbox a few days later. :rolleyes:

pat13wx

Evil_little_me wrote: »

Perhaps, but I'm not going to hold my breath though. I was waiting up until Monday for any kind of feedback from them. They didn't call me back like they said. I just took a chance and rang them to see what the hold up was and the guy I was speaking to took my email address.

Like magic, I've got the paperwork in my inbox a few days later. :rolleyes:

When I called them they also took my details and promised to have someone call me who could deal with my queries more specifically. Now, after nearly three weeks I still haven't hear from them. But in fairness I was only looking for information that was not at the time on their website.

I am looking forward to hearing how you get on with these people.

Sometimes the product might be the finest, but those providing it might be lacking.

Evil_little_me

I'm living seven miles between Cashel and Thurles, so I'm basically as rural as could be. Eircom keep telling us year after year that we'll have broadband soon, but to no avail.

So, I'm really excited by the prospect of having a fast, and more importantly reliable connection. And although they didn't call me back when they said they would, every operator I've spoken to have been helpful and genuine.

bealtine

Evil_little_me wrote: »

I'm living seven miles between Cashel and Thurles,

Have you looked into Munster Broadband?

http://www.munsterbroadband.ie/