Cycling/Walking around the city

joeKel73

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Seriously though, I do have a modicum of sympathy for the driver, in that it's clearly a breakdown situation (more than just a puncture perhaps). However, the decision of both drivers to place their vehicles on the foot/cycle path, and your use of the term "much greater disruption" shows the standard thinking in such situations: pedestrian and cyclist space can or even should be taken over at will in order to accommodate motorists in a wide range of circumstances, from popping in to the shops, to using a mobile phone, to dropping Sophie and Jack 5 metres from the school gate, to changing a wheel. The main objective is: whatever else you do, don't hold up other motorists. Is that the thinking, and if so why?

This is completely different to someone pulling up to pop into the shop, use the phone or at a school.... in those cases the drivers had a real choice of where they park and the option to find appropriate parking.

This is a man that has broken down or blown a tyre on a long stretch of road with no side roads or options to pull in out of everyone's way.

Since the problem seems to be on the right had side of the car, working on the side of that road could be lethal and only putting half the car onto the path would still be lethal as well as completely impractical for removing a wheel.

snubbleste

The point is that the cycle path and footpath are viewed as de-facto empty spaces for motorists to use.
If a cyclist got a puncture, he would not dream of thinking the road should be restricted to facilitate him fixing his puncture.

joeKel73

If you were that driver what would you have done?

Iwannahurl

yer man! wrote: »

People do not go 50km/h on that road, I think i'd prefer to play it safe and get off it than remain there out of principle....

Well, there you go. Speeding motorists causing danger to other road users, so let's take over the cycle lane and footpath.

That's the basic (general) point being made. When push comes to shove the default option is to take over pedestrians' or cyclists' space rather than devise a solution that might have an effect on motorists, such as slowing them down for a while.

In this instance it's a breakdown, perhaps unavoidable, and some allowance can be made. But I still maintain that it's an illustration of the habitual way in which footpaths and cycle lanes are casually regarded by motorists as handy extra road space when the 'need' arises.

Just recently at the Bodkin roadworks I saw a HGV parked up on the pavement and cycle path right on the corner. Pedestrians had to walk out on the road at the exact spot where left-turning traffic accelerates onto the bridge from the Headford Road, except on this occasion their presence was obscured by the HGV. No doubt the contractors had the magnificent excuse that they were carrying out essential roadworks, but the point is that they opted to take over the entire pavement rather than one of two lanes on the roadway.

Just this morning I saw three large ESB trucks take over a cycle lane and footpath on the Western Distributor Road. Again, they would argue that they are engaged in essential work and some disruption is bound to occur. But in doing so they chose to obstruct pedestrian and cyclist space rather than arrange things in a manner that would not restrict people travelling on foot or by bike but which might mean that motorists would lose a few seconds of their time.

Breakdowns happen, work needs to be done and disruption occurs. Fair enough. But why is the default option to make pedestrians and cyclists adapt in order to minimise disruption to motorists?

joeKel73

Meanwhile Iwannahurl on Bóthar na Mine...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU5Y7-gjFjk

Again you're comparing that breakdown situation to situations where drivers were able to plan in advance and make a choice where they park up.

Believe me drivers blocking cyclist and pedestrian routes is one of my biggest pet hates and frustrations when cycling around Galway.

On that note - what can be done about it? On the road opposite UCHG between Tesco Express and Chinatown there is constantly cars pulled up on the double yellow lines both blocking the footpath and forcing cyclists out into the main traffic flow. Nearly every day I come across drivers pulling out here without checking around them or swinging open doors without checking for cyclists.

But what can we do? Two of the most regular culprits are the Gardai and the Ambulance staff pulling up to get rolls in the 24hr Londis...

Iwannahurl

J o e wrote: »

you're comparing that breakdown situation to situations where drivers were able to plan in advance and make a choice where they park up.

No, I'm saying that in all situations motorists' Standard Operating Procedure is to place their vehicle in pedestrian and cyclist space rather than in the way of motorised traffic. It's a general observation, and it's borne out by self-evident reality on a daily basis.

With regard to Newcastle Road opposite UHG, I know exactly what you mean.



What can be done about it? Unfortunately it requires a major change in culture, primarily from the top down but also from the bottom up. Clearly the mere existence of legislation is not enough. Gardai habitually parking on footpaths is yet another example of the way in which mobility and access for motorists is prioritised while pedestrians and cyclists are treated as second-class citizens.

Your video of motoring larrikins in Saudi Arabia reminds me of my very brief experience of Kuwait. It was the most nerve-wracking pedestrian environment I've ever encountered, and the few cyclists I met must have had a death wish. There is one very obvious cultural factor at play in Kuwait: the car is king, motorists are the highest caste, and pedestrians/cyclists are most likely to be lowly immigrants whose safety and access needs can be safely casually ignored.

jimbobaloobob

Motorists take precedent over pedestrians or cyclists,partly because there's more likely hood of them in terms of volume and obstructions causing backlogs.
Not saying its right but its the done thing.

dastardly00

Just posting this here as it might be of interest to Galway Boardsies.

Giro d'Jigsaw cycle - Sunday October 20th

The ‘Giro’ is a fundraising cycle for our service and supports for young people experiencing difficulties with their mental health and well-being in Galway.
The Giro d'Jigsaw Galway is a cycling sportive which has 50km and 108km loop routes, with both starting from Southpark in the Claddagh in Galway City.
Both routes make their way out west through the beautiful surrounds of Connemara and back to Galway City.
The Giro d'Jigsaw Cycle offers something for cyclists of all abilities and will provide some exhilarating cycling, with a few challenging climbs for good measure!

The Super Cycle (108km) starts at 10am - Check out the route map here

The Challenge Cycle (50km) starts at 11am - Check out the route map here

snubbleste

I'm on the N6 westbound approaching N59 junction and a van driver decides to take a left turn directly in front of me. He has to cross the bike lane in order to proceed. I had the right of way. I hit the van, nothing damaged.
What can a cyclist do to prevent a motorist using their precious tin cage to turn left in front of a cyclist in future?

Time

snubbleste wrote: »

I'm on the N6 westbound approaching N59 junction and a van driver decides to take a left turn directly in front of me. He has to cross the bike lane in order to proceed. I had the right of way. I hit the van, nothing damaged.
What can a cyclist do to prevent a motorist using their precious tin cage to turn left in front of a cyclist in future?

Actually you didn't necessarily have right of way. If it was clear the van was going to reach the junction before you, and subsequently turn, indicated by use if indicators and or hand signals, the onus is on you is to not continue on the left as per http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

snubbleste

Time wrote: »

Actually you didn't necessarily have right of way. If it was clear the van was going to reach the junction before you, and subsequently turn, indicated by use if indicators and or hand signals, the onus is on you is to not continue on the left as per http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/si/0332.html

The van crossed the lane I was in directly in front of me and I hit it.
Are you saying that if the van had signalled left that I had to stop to let it proceed

dastardly00

snubbleste wrote: »

I'm on the N6 westbound approaching N59 junction and a van driver decides to take a left turn directly in front of me. He has to cross the bike lane in order to proceed. I had the right of way. I hit the van, nothing damaged.
What can a cyclist do to prevent a motorist using their precious tin cage to turn left in front of a cyclist in future?

Was that at the Browne roundabout, or the junction with Lower/Upper Newcastle at Topaz?

snubbleste

dastardly00 wrote: »

Was that at the Browne roundabout, or the junction with Lower/Upper Newcastle at Topaz?

At the Topaz.

Time

snubbleste wrote: »

The van crossed the lane I was in directly in front of me and I hit it.
Are you saying that if the van had signalled left that I had to stop to let it proceed

If he completely cut across you then no of course not, thats not acceptable as you couldn't have known he was going to turn. But if he overtakes you and theres a reasonable time for him to safely indicate and turn then he has right of way across the cycle lane and your expected to pass on the right.

If he pulls over to let a passenger out the same rule applies, you lose right of way and must pass on the right. Basically cyclists don't automatically have right of way in a cycle lane.

dastardly00

snubbleste wrote: »

I'm on the N6 westbound approaching N59 junction and a van driver decides to take a left turn directly in front of me. He has to cross the bike lane in order to proceed. I had the right of way. I hit the van, nothing damaged.
What can a cyclist do to prevent a motorist using their precious tin cage to turn left in front of a cyclist in future?

Yeah I think the way that bicycle lane is, it's just a recipe for disaster. I'm really not a fan of it.

Whenever I'm on the bike at that junction, I just always expect the unexpected.... i.e. for a motorist to turn in on top of me.

CramCycle

Time wrote: »

If he completely cut across you then no of course not, thats not acceptable as you couldn't have known he was going to turn. But if he overtakes you and theres a reasonable time for him to safely indicate and turn then he has right of way across the cycle lane and your expected to pass on the right.

If he pulls over to let a passenger out the same rule applies, you lose right of way and must pass on the right. Basically cyclists don't automatically have right of way in a cycle lane.

If they overtake, they should know you are there, if you hit them because they forced a collision, this means that they did not have time, so no, there is no situation where this should occur. They overtook to slam on the brakes, this is dangerous driving, plain and simple.

topcat77

was driving home from a night class yesterday around 10pm. Must of passed 6 cyclists all with no bike lights at all, some had Hi-Vis but it's just not enough. I commute to work on a daily basis and got the lights out in Sept. Think people have been caught out with the short evenings or just don't realize how dangerous it is.

Iwannahurl

snubbleste wrote: »

I'm on the N6 westbound approaching N59 junction and a van driver decides to take a left turn directly in front of me. He has to cross the bike lane in order to proceed. I had the right of way. I hit the van, nothing damaged.

What can a cyclist do to prevent a motorist using their precious tin cage to turn left in front of a cyclist in future?

Here?

This kind of "left hook" collision is a real risk, especially when the vehicle colliding with the cyclist is much larger, such as a HGV.

It seems to be unpreventable in Ireland, so we have to expect it unfortunately. I'm always wary when passing a junction where a motorist may try to overtake and turn left.

It's an all too common occurrence. I saw a female cyclist nearly knocked off her bike here very recently, by a motorist who was completely oblivious to the danger she was causing.

Mind you, on numerous occasions I've also been overtaken by motorists as I'm turning right. In Galway, and perhaps everywhere else in Ireland, it seems you have to assume in such situations that all drivers are unlicensed, vision-impaired or homicidal, or maybe even all three.

Ideally, drivers and cyclists would be properly educated, the law would prioritise the safety of cyclists and pedestrians, road safety would be allocated a decent budget, and roads engineers would have a clue about what they're doing. In the meantime, the Irish 'solution' to the left hook problem seems to be to leave cyclists to work it out for themselves (eg just give up) or else make them yield. Here's an example on the newly "improved" Seamus Quirke Road.

And here's how they do it in the Netherlands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBwMRGxtZ9k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA

Iwannahurl

topcat77 wrote: »

was driving home from a night class yesterday around 10pm. Must of passed 6 cyclists all with no bike lights at all, some had Hi-Vis but it's just not enough. I commute to work on a daily basis and got the lights out in Sept. Think people have been caught out with the short evenings or just don't realize how dangerous it is.

Enforcement is required.

Nuff said.

Time

CramCycle wrote: »

If they overtake, they should know you are there, if you hit them because they forced a collision, this means that they did not have time, so no, there is no situation where this should occur. They overtook to slam on the brakes, this is dangerous driving, plain and simple.

Yes, they should know you are their and being ahead is not an excuse to cut across someone dangerously, which is of course illegal. But them knowing you are there doesn't remove their right of way across the cycle lane/the cyclists legal obligation to overtake on the right only.

The exact wording is

IrishStatutebook.ie wrote:

A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle

So the real issue is what is, considered "reasonable expectation"?. In my opinion if the motorist is a safe distance ahead (i.e not dangerously cutting across) and indicating then they must expect that the cyclist can see their intent and thus needs to pass on the right.

zarquon

Saw a cyclist cut through the ballybane N6 junction today on a red light to turn left coming from the Tuam Road and almost hit on on coming car in the process. Even though cars were oncoming from Ballybane direction through to the industrial estate he did not give an ounce of care to the fact that he was on red and the stream of traffic had the right of way. A lot of cyclists complain about vehicles which do not give them right of way on a cycle lane, which is fair enough but there is an increasing number of cyclists around this city that are taking liberties at the new juctions and cutting through them on red without right of way. It's dangerous and stupid. What is it in the psychology of these cyclists that makes them feel so aggreived at having to stop at a four way juction on a red light, that they will risk their life to run the red light!

what_traffic

zarquon wrote: »

What is it in the psychology of these cyclists that makes them feel so aggreived at having to stop at a four way juction on a red light, that they will risk their life to run the red light!

Same psychology that pedestrians and motorists who dont obey the rules of the road. What's new there?
I saw a motorist go through two red pedestrian lights at Eyre Square at the junction of Ceannt Station this morning on the way to work this morning. Idiots are everywere.

zarquon

what_traffic wrote: »

Same psychology that pedestrians and motorists who dont obey the rules of the road. What's new there?
I saw a motorist go through two red pedestrian lights at Eyre Square at the junction of Ceannt Station this morning on the way to work this morning. Idiots are everywere.

Fair enough, there are stupid motorists that do this too but the chance of a motorist injuring himself in the process is limited whereas a cyclist is taken a much larger risk by cycling through a red light into oncoming traffic.

galwaycyclist

zarquon wrote: »

Saw a cyclist cut through the ballybane N6 junction today on a red light to turn left coming from the Tuam Road and almost hit on on coming car in the process. Even though cars were oncoming from Ballybane direction through to the industrial estate he did not give an ounce of care to the fact that he was on red and the stream of traffic had the right of way. A lot of cyclists complain about vehicles which do not give them right of way on a cycle lane, which is fair enough but there is an increasing number of cyclists around this city that are taking liberties at the new juctions and cutting through them on red without right of way. It's dangerous and stupid. What is it in the psychology of these cyclists that makes them feel so aggreived at having to stop at a four way juction on a red light, that they will risk their life to run the red light!

Ok if the situation was as you describe: cyclist coming from Tuam road and turning left into Boston Scientific/Hewlett Packard then the cyclist was turning left from a cycle lane onto another cycle lane.

Arguably the only other traffic he could have been interfering with was cyclists coming from Ballybane. In other countries cyclists in this situation would be given a free-left turn much like the yellow flashing amber at the slip road going from Ballybane towards the Tuam Rd at the same junction. i.e in other countries this would not be illegal.

Edit: Arguably it could only be dangerous and stupid if Ballybane car drivers are using the cycle lanes for some reason.

what_traffic

zarquon wrote: »

Fair enough, there are stupid motorists that do this too but the chance of a motorist injuring himself in the process is limited whereas a cyclist is taken a much larger risk by cycling through a red light into oncoming traffic.

But the motorist has greater chances of injuring other's (motorists, motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians). What's new with that.

what_traffic

What do cyclists make of the latest report from : "Better Transport for Galway"
http://www.galwaytf.com/

http://galwaytf.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/GTransport_13.pdf

CramCycle

Time wrote: »

So the real issue is what is, considered "reasonable expectation"?. In my opinion if the motorist is a safe distance ahead (i.e not dangerously cutting across) and indicating then they must expect that the cyclist can see their intent and thus needs to pass on the right.

if the cyclist will get to them before they can complete the turn then they are not far enough ahead, simples. If the car can make the turn before the cyclist they just went past reaches said corner, then it is safe. Happens to me alot when driving, I just wait for the 10 seconds, usually get a nice polite wave of thanks and then I am back to where I would have been anyway within another minute due to either lights or traffic.

That said when I cycle I nearly always pull out to the right if I can because I wouldn't expect everyone to pay me the same respect.

antoobrien

I was out for a walk one evening last week (after dark) when I saw 4 bikes in quick succession on the Rahoon Rd with no lights, reflective belts/jackets and wearing dark clothes. The only reflectors were those mounted on the pedals, which can't be seen very far away and on the wheels - which are provide no head on visibility. I didn't hear of any accidents in the area, but it's only a matter of time if this kind of thing continues, especially as the mornings and evenings will be darker for the next few months.

Remember if you can't be seen while cycling until the last second, you are far more likely likely to get you hurt or killed than if you can be seen. So please pass the message along to children/friends/colleagues that they are putting their lives at risk through this behaviour.

Reflective gear is cheap, get spares and leave them at work/school (if practical).

what_traffic

antoobrien wrote: »

I was out for a walk one evening last week (after dark) when I saw 4 bikes in quick succession on the Rahoon Rd with no lights, reflective belts/jackets and wearing dark clothes.

It's written in the law to have a light on the bike(as well as a bell), but its another of those laws the AGS don't bother with.

sammyjo90

what_traffic wrote: »

It's written in the law to have a light on the bike(as well as a bell), but its another of those laws the AGS don't bother with.

You have to have a bell? Crap i didnt even think about having one of those! (only brought my bike to the city last week)