Cycling/Walking around the city

Cleahaigh

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The rain is exaggerated, IMO.

Besides, there is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.

The number of Galway residents who trudge around in the rain without waterproofs is remarkable.

Galway has quite a high number of days with rain, and often wind as well. This does influence peoples decisions. You can't just ignore it or throw out tired cliches just because it suits your position.

Mr_A

Galway may have a relatively high number of days with rain, but as someone who cycles to work every day I'd say people would be surprised how rarely the full rain gear is necessary. It's best always to have it with you though.

http://www.met.ie/latest/rainfall_radar.asp
The Met Eireann rainfall radar is useful on showery days to judge a gap.

The amount and frequency of rainfall in this city is over estimated - it isn't that bad. I walk to work and the last time I got uncomfortably wet was during the summer when I was out without appropriate raingear.

I pass a lot of students on my way and do wonder if I was as inappropriately dressed as they seem to be when I was going to college.

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The law on yielding speicifies that drivers pulling out from side roads should yield to crossing pedestrians.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

Despite this, there are various side roads around Galway where engineers employed by the city appear to have tried to turn this legal principle on its head.

So they have marked the Yield or Stop Lines past the pedestrian travel line from footpath corner to footpath corner. The yield line is at the edge of the crossing road instead of leaving space for crossing walkers. The engineers involved are encouraging drivers not to lawfully yield but instead obstruct and impede pedestrians.

It would be useful to get photographs of examples.

I would say such examples are everywhere.

Unfortunately, setting the Yield line back seems to make no difference.

Iwannahurl

Cleahaigh wrote: »

Galway has quite a high number of days with rain, and often wind as well. This does influence peoples decisions. You can't just ignore it or throw out tired cliches just because it suits your position.

People make their decisions on the basis of perception also. The reality, apparent when you walk regularly, is that (a) rain is not an hourly or even daily occurrence, and (b) wearing appropriate clothing makes walking in rain no big deal, even for children.

brutes1

Good read here! http://www.met.ie/climate/rainfall.asp

I agreed with the thread starter, Galway is a small compact city and easily walkable from many of the suburbs . A two mile radius from Eyre square would catch a big population of people who could probably walk/run/cycle if they wanted/bothered /to work /college/school, myself included...

Mrs OBumble

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The law on yielding speicifies that drivers pulling out from side roads should yield to crossing pedestrians.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html



Despite this, there are various side roads around Galway where engineers employed by the city appear to have tried to turn this legal principle on its head.

So they have marked the Yield or Stop Lines past the pedestrian travel line from footpath corner to footpath corner. The yield line is at the edge of the crossing road instead of leaving space for crossing walkers. The engineers involved are encouraging drivers not to lawfully yield but instead obstruct and impede pedestrians.

It would be useful to get photographs of examples.

But this may be a case where the law and common sense contradict.

At such an intersection, as pedestrian I always prefer to cross behind the car at the top of the queue: I'm more certain that the driver in the 2nd car in a queue can and does see me, and so I'm not worried that the driver of the car I'm in front of may suddently see a gap and pull out. And it just feels politer: no need to hold the driver up while I cross.

galwaycyclist

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But this may be a case where the law and common sense contradict.

At such an intersection, as pedestrian I always prefer to cross behind the car at the top of the queue: I'm more certain that the driver in the 2nd car in a queue can and does see me, and so I'm not worried that the driver of the car I'm in front of may suddently see a gap and pull out. And it just feels politer: no need to hold the driver up while I cross.

Sure if the car was already there before you reach the side road but if you are there first or about to arrive at about the same time its the driver of the car thats supposed to let you across.

The placing of these lines in many cases encourages drivers to simply ignore whats happening on the footpath and concentrate on the road. This is wrong, it should be check for pedestrians first then check what else is going on.

what_traffic

Hey IWH,

if you have further pictures of Dr. Mannix as works progress can you please post to the thread.

Thanks

poundapunnet

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The rain is exaggerated, IMO.

Besides, there is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.

The number of Galway residents who trudge around in the rain without waterproofs is remarkable.

The thing about rain in Galway and a lot of the west of Ireland is that it seems to have more of an aspiration towards the horizontal than your average rain. If it's lashing down diagonally an umbrella does no good.

Agreed about the lack of raingear, but you could say that about all of Ireland. Tourists in May go around rigged out in it, but your average local in November seems to genuinely surprised and personally aggrieved that an extra jacket/cardigan isn't enough. Says me sitting here with a bastard of a cold from walking around in the rain.

Galway's pretty good to walk around in, there's a couple of places that could really do with some pedestrian crossings (the stretch up by Lidl/Omniplex/Tesco springs to mind) but it's a pretty, small city, and SAFE to walk around most of the time, which is nice

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The placing of these lines in many cases encourages drivers to simply ignore whats happening on the footpath and concentrate on the road. This is wrong, it should be check for pedestrians first then check what else is going on.

Well put.

Here are some other examples. I admit to having found the Maunsells Road markings (last photo below) somewhat confusing when travelling that route by car. Which is the real Stop line? The driving instructor obviously thinks it's the line beyond the worded Stop marking.

Those lines are all correctly placed, they are indicating that you must yield before driving out onto the road as cars on that road have right of way.

These road marking and yield signs have nothing to do with pedestrians.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Here are some other examples. I admit to having found the Maunsells Road markings (last photo below) somewhat confusing when travelling that route by car. Which is the real Stop line? The driving instructor obviously thinks it's the line beyond the worded Stop marking.

Technically you have to stop twice when using a vechicle here. If you were taking a driving test and did not do this it's an automatic fail. The placement of the red sign should be aligned with the point of the first white line as one approaches Shantalla Road from Maunsells Road.

irisheddie85

So do you want a traffic light crossing at every junction or cars to have to stop before all these crossings and then stop again after them to make sure it is actually safe to drive through the junction. To be honest I'm not sure what you are trying to show with your pictures.

If I am driving and get to a junction like any of the pictures above and there is a pedestrian waiting to cross I stop short and let them cross. If there is no pedestrians I continue to the last white stop line so I can safely see either way and proceed through the junction.
Once I am at the line I would expect pedestrians who arrive at the junction to go behind my car rather than walk in front of me while i am obviously trying to pull out.
Although I have had both pedestrians and cyclists leave a footpath and go in front of my car just as I start to move but fortunately I have stopped again in time to avoid an accident.

When walking I follow this wonderful thing called the safe cross code I was taught in school. Stop Look Listen. Do you Know what along with a bit of sense it makes crossing all roads like those in the above pictures perfectly safe.

Iwannahurl

newkie wrote: »

I wish the footpath along the Moycullen road could be widened. It is actually really close for residents of Knocknacarra to walk to the prom/Salthill. However, the footpath is so narrow it's simply dangerous with children.

A cycle path along the same route would be a huge benefit as well, but I know I'm just dreaming.

Do you mean the Barna Road? That's a popular area for walkers, both locally and as a route to the Prom. Unfortunately it's dangerous to cross, the footpaths are inadequate, and there have been several serious collisions over the years. The most recent was in December 2012.

I was speaking to a resident there earlier this year, and he said that he has to cross the road twice to get to the nearby bus stop, due to the lack of a footpath. On the same day it took me literally five minutes to cross the road because of the amount of fast-moving traffic.

The good news is that there are plans to install traffic signals at the junction of Barna Road and Ballymoneen Road: http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/64176/traffic-lights-to-make-knocknacarra-accident-blackspot-safer


.

Iwannahurl

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Those lines are all correctly placed, they are indicating that you must yield before driving out onto the road as cars on that road have right of way.

These road marking and yield signs have nothing to do with pedestrians.

In this regard my interpretation of galwaycyclist's point was that the placing of the lines has nothing to do with pedestrians, because the design of the junctions seems to have nothing to do with the law requiring vehicles exiting side roads to yield to pedestrians approaching the junction along the main road:

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The law on yielding speicifies that drivers pulling out from side roads should yield to crossing pedestrians.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html

Yielding Right of Way
(5) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction by a road which is not a major road shall, notwithstanding that there is no traffic sign indicating that the last mentioned road is a major road, yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians on the major road.

(6) A driver approaching a road junction to which sub-article (5) does not apply shall yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians approaching the junction from the right by another road.

Despite this, there are various side roads around Galway where engineers employed by the city appear to have tried to turn this legal principle on its head.

So they have marked the Yield or Stop Lines past the pedestrian travel line from footpath corner to footpath corner. The yield line is at the edge of the crossing road instead of leaving space for crossing walkers. The engineers involved are encouraging drivers not to lawfully yield but instead obstruct and impede pedestrians.

The 1997 Regulations seem to be quite clear: "A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction by a road which is not a major road shall ... yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians on the major road."

Are you saying there is some other meaning to those words?

irisheddie85 wrote: »

To be honest I'm not sure what you are trying to show with your pictures.

If I am driving and get to a junction like any of the pictures above and there is a pedestrian waiting to cross I stop short and let them cross. If there is no pedestrians I continue to the last white stop line so I can safely see either way and proceed through the junction.

Once I am at the line I would expect pedestrians who arrive at the junction to go behind my car rather than walk in front of me while i am obviously trying to pull out.

Although I have had both pedestrians and cyclists leave a footpath and go in front of my car just as I start to move but fortunately I have stopped again in time to avoid an accident.

When walking I follow this wonderful thing called the safe cross code I was taught in school. Stop Look Listen. Do you Know what along with a bit of sense it makes crossing all roads like those in the above pictures perfectly safe.

You might yield to pedestrians at the junction, as the law requires, but in my experience many if not most drivers do not.

Placing the Stop or Yield markings on the 'main road side' of the pedestrian line of travel invites motorists to continue up to the line. It may also be the case, typically, that drivers approaching the Yield or Stop line are looking for traffic coming from the right and will not be watching out, and preparing to yield, for pedestrians coming from the left.

What is the engineering rationale for placing a Yield or Stop line beyond the point where vehicles are expected to yield right of way to pedestrians?

And what about long vehicles? If the Stop or Yield line is placed beyond the pedestrian line of travel, say from dished kerb to dished kerb, how are pedestrians supposed to cross?

Mrs OBumble

Iwannahurl wrote: »

.... the law requiring vehicles exiting side roads to yield to pedestrians approaching the junction along the main road:
...

The 1997 Regulations seem to be quite clear: "A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction by a road which is not a major road shall ... yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians on the major road."

....
And what about long vehicles? If the Stop or Yield line is placed beyond the pedestrian line of travel, say from dished kerb to dished kerb, how are pedestrians supposed to cross?

Galwaycyclists's interpretation just didn't ring true with me. I went thru the whole painful Irish driving license process (including a couple of lessons with an instructor) relatively recently, and I most certainly wasn't told that I had to give way to all pedestrians travelling in the direction of a main road relative to the one I was on.

Going back to my "Rules of the Road" it says a motorist must give way to a pedestrian at various places (zebra, pelican etc) and ... "at a junction if they have started crossing the road"

So I'm thinking that a car must give way to a pedestrian who is on the road, but not one who is on the footpath.

That's certainly what I expect as a pedestrian.

irisheddie85

Iwannahurl wrote: »

And what about long vehicles? If the Stop or Yield line is placed beyond the pedestrian line of travel, say from dished kerb to dished kerb, how are pedestrians supposed to cross?

but you can't expect vehicles to stop that far back from a junction incase a pedestrian comes along while they are trying to pull out. It would be very hard to get a clear view and to manoeuvre safely. By a long vehicle I assume you mean a bus or truck. Well in a truck the area directly in front is a massive blind spot. The idea of encouraging anyone that it is a good idea to cross in front without knowing for sure that the driver had seen them is extremely dangerous.
In heavy slow moving traffic you may notice some trucks stop unbelievably close to the car in front of them. One of the reasons for this is to cut down on people walking into their blindspot and not realising they can't be seen.

Iwannahurl

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Galwaycyclists's interpretation just didn't ring true with me. I went thru the whole painful Irish driving license process (including a couple of lessons with an instructor) relatively recently, and I most certainly wasn't told that I had to give way to all pedestrians travelling in the direction of a main road relative to the one I was on.

Going back to my "Rules of the Road" it says a motorist must give way to a pedestrian at various places (zebra, pelican etc) and ... "at a junction if they have started crossing the road"

So I'm thinking that a car must give way to a pedestrian who is on the road, but not one who is on the footpath.

That's certainly what I expect as a pedestrian.

I don't believe the 1997 Regulations require vehicles exiting a side road to yield to "all pedestrians" on the main road.

My understanding is that the RoTR is an interpretation of the law, and that the legislation takes precedence when push comes to shove.

Where do pedestrians' expectations come from? I frequently encounter pedestrians who apparently expect me not to let them cross at a junction -- very often roundabouts -- and their whole demeanour portrays an attitude of inferiority and lack of entitlement. Even the elderly will scurry across as quickly as they can, raising their hand in gratitude.

Several months ago I stopped to let a woman pushing a pram cross at a roundabout. She was already crossing as I exited the roundabout, so I stopped to let her continue, even though she was about to stop when she saw me. Immediately the driver behind me started beeping furiously, and a second or two later another driver behind him started doing the same.

Pedestrians should not have to depend on the kindness of strangers in cars in order to be permitted to cross the road, and if the law is inadequate or unclear it should be amended in favour of the more vulnerable road user and the more sustainable mode of travel.

Iwannahurl

irisheddie85 wrote: »

but you can't expect vehicles to stop that far back from a junction incase a pedestrian comes along while they are trying to pull out. It would be very hard to get a clear view and to manoeuvre safely. By a long vehicle I assume you mean a bus or truck. Well in a truck the area directly in front is a massive blind spot. The idea of encouraging anyone that it is a good idea to cross in front without knowing for sure that the driver had seen them is extremely dangerous.

In heavy slow moving traffic you may notice some trucks stop unbelievably close to the car in front of them. One of the reasons for this is to cut down on people walking into their blindspot and not realising they can't be seen.

That's true about the blindspot in front of trucks. However, the answer is not, or ought not to be, to let trucks obstruct a pedestrian crossing.

In heavy, slow-moving or stationary traffic (often the case at roundabouts during the school run, for example) trucks and buses go right up to the Stop or Yield line.

When vehicles such as the truck below are stationary, how is a child, elderly person or someone in a wheelchair supposed to cross?

Are they meant to wait for a gap to materialise at random in heavy traffic, or for a driver to take pity on them? If so, why?

irisheddie85 wrote: »

you can't expect vehicles to stop that far back from a junction

Why not?

Photo of a Dutch roundabout below. Note where the car is stopped, the width of the pedestrian crossing and the Yield markings on both lanes.

I'm a bit pressed for time just now, but if I find images of any 'ordinary' junctions in the Netherlands I'll add them later. They may well show something more Irish in design.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Why not?

Simply put, because it's absolute bull. A car on a road should be given right of way and priority over a person walking. If a person is about to step out on the road or all ready on the road I have no problem allowing the across but the default right of way should be given to motorised vehicles or bikes on the road. It's crazy to think otherwise absolutely crazy.

Some people really need to catch a hold of themselves and realise that pedestrians are not that important.

Mrs OBumble

Iwannahurl wrote: »

My understanding is that the RoTR is an interpretation of the law, and that the legislation takes precedence when push comes to shove.

....

Even the elderly will scurry across as quickly as they can, raising their hand in gratitude.

Several months ago I stopped to let a woman pushing a pram cross at a roundabout. She was already crossing as I exited the roundabout, so I stopped to let her continue, even though she was about to stop when she saw me. Immediately the driver behind me started beeping furiously, and a second or two later another driver behind him started doing the same.

It's not often that I disagree with you - but in the name of all that is good - do not ever stop for a pedestrian while you are on a RAB. Because if you do, the change of a very nasty multi-vehicle pile up is enormous. Just keep going. The pedestrian would far rather wait for a gap to come - and I can assure you, it always does come, no matter how heavy traffic is. (And that's a comment from someone who is a frequent pedestrian, and who had a very unpleasant experience with being given-way to the first time I tackled the late-but-not-lameneted Morris TAB.)

I totally agree that there should be more facilites for pedestrians. That means footpaths, official crossings, and education of drivers about them. Also, weather shelters at intersections, so people can be protected from with rain while waiting. Not the right to wander out into the road and cause chaos at any junction!

irisheddie85

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's true about the blindspot in front of trucks. However, the answer is not, or ought not to be, to let trucks obstruct a pedestrian crossing.

In heavy, slow-moving or stationary traffic (often the case at roundabouts during the school run, for example) trucks and buses go right up to the Stop or Yield line.

When vehicles such as the truck below are stationary, how is a child, elderly person or someone in a wheelchair supposed to cross?

Are they meant to wait for a gap to materialise at random in heavy traffic, or for a driver to take pity on them? If so, why

yes they are meant to wait for the gap that should appear once the large vehicle leaves the junction and the next car in line gives them right of way as they should. For it to be safe to pull out at a junction in heavy traffic you need to be at the actual junction not 8 feet back behind a pedestrian crossing. Heavy traffic is an inconvenience for all road users be they driving walking or cycling. I dont think any road design could ever overcome this

Why not?

Photo of a Dutch roundabout below. Note where the car is stopped, the width of the pedestrian crossing and the Yield markings on both lanes.

I'm a bit pressed for time just now, but if I find images of any 'ordinary' junctions in the Netherlands I'll add them later. They may well show something more Irish in design.

your photo of the dutch rounabout actually shows what should happen at all junctions. There is space after the crossing but before the junction for a car to fit so it can safely join the other traffic and the pedestrians and cyclists can pass behind it. There is also room for a car to get off the roundabout and allow pedestrians to cross infront of it rather than having to stop on the roundabout which is very dangerous and actually against the rules of the road in this country.
Unfortunately it looks as though if a truck or bus were using this junction they would still end up stopping blocking part of the crossing.

Earlier in this thread it was said that pedestrians should be able to cross corner to corner of the path but your picture of a good way to cross a road doesn't follow this it actually follows mrs o Bumble idea of crossing behind the first car.

irisheddie85

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Simply put, because it's absolute bull. A car on a road should be given right of way and priority over a person walking. If a person is about to step out on the road or all ready on the road I have no problem allowing the across but the default right of way should be given to motorised vehicles or bikes on the road. It's crazy to think otherwise absolutely crazy.

Some people really need to catch a hold of themselves and realise that pedestrians are not that important.

I'm Sorry but this is just the completely wrong attitude to have to using the roads. Pedestrians arent some subhuman group, they are people going about their daily business and have every right to use the roads and to be allowed to cross them safely.
This is a thread about walking in the City of Galway not on the side of a motorway. Pedestrians should be expected to be on every road in the city and have an enjoyable experience of walking around it.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

That's true about the blindspot in front of trucks. However, the answer is not, or ought not to be, to let trucks obstruct a pedestrian crossing.

In heavy, slow-moving or stationary traffic (often the case at roundabouts during the school run, for example) trucks and buses go right up to the Stop or Yield line.

When vehicles such as the truck below are stationary, how is a child, elderly person or someone in a wheelchair supposed to cross?

By simply walking behind the bus, truck or car. This is how it should be done. First car/ bus etc stops at the junction and pedestrians walk behind. For someone who appears to love walking you have a major problem with walking the few extra yards to walk around something.

irisheddie85 wrote: »

I'm Sorry but this is just the completely wrong attitude to have to using the roads. Pedestrians arent some subhuman group, they are people going about their daily business and have every right to use the roads and to be allowed to cross them safely.
This is a thread about walking in the City of Galway not on the side of a motorway. Pedestrians should be expected to be on every road in the city and have an enjoyable experience of walking around it.

They are not subhuman group but they are also do not have the rights some people appear to think nor should we be making unnecessary and in some cases dangerous road layouts for them to cross roads.

I'd do quite a bit of walking myself btw.

SpaceTime

Tax break for rain gear would help enormously!

Irish people in general live in a state of national denial about the reality of our weather and Galway is exceptionally wet.

snubbleste

SpaceTime wrote: »

..
Irish people in general live in a state of national denial about the reality of our weather and Galway is exceptionally wet.

Source?

SpaceTime

snubbleste wrote: »

Source?

http://www.met.ie/climate/images/climate_rainfallmap.gif

Let's just take November:

Mean rainfall number of days:

Irish cities:
Dublin : 72.9 mm
Galway : 127.3 mm
Cork: 120.0mm
Belfast: 96.3 mm

Britain:
Edinburgh: 62.1 mm
Manchester: 79.9 mm
Southampton : 94.0mm
London: 57.5 mm

France:
Nantes: 84.8 (Atlantic)
Bordeaux: 106.8mm (Atlantic)
Paris: 51.9mm

Northern Spain:
Bilbao: 141 mm

To find places with more rain than Galway and Cork you really have to start looking towards the the NW USA and British Columbia in Canada.

Seattle, WA: 148.1 mm
Vancouver, BC 181.0mm

Galway and Cork are *EXCEPTIONALLY* wet by almost any standards.
Their number of days of rain are also extremely high.
Dublin's significantly drier.

There's no myth, hear-say or anything else about it.

http://www.worldweather.org will give you all the stats for any cities you care to look at.

Almost everywhere else in Europe has a lot more dry days and a lot less drizzle.
That's what puts people off cycling and walking in most Irish cities to be perfectly honest and we dress as if we were living in Paris or Berlin which are many, many times drier than most all of Ireland.

Even Dublin, as Ireland's driest city is pretty wet by any European comparisons other than atlantic coastal places.

On the denial of reality thing: Most Irish people do not have proper rain gear! You can't even buy proper fashionable rain gear here most of the time as the retail outlets are driven by UK fashion trends instead of climatic reality.

Things like wool coats are absolutely ridiculous in this climate!

If you head up to say Seattle or Vancouver you can pick up practical, really good rain gear very easily.

irisheddie85

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

They are not subhuman group but they are also do not have the rights some people appear to think nor should we be making unnecessary and in some cases dangerous road layouts for them to cross roads.

I'd do quite a bit of walking myself btw.

Nobody has suggested anything that would be dangerous for cars. I would have thought this was a discussion to come up with the safest options for all road users. parts of galway are actually a disaster to walk around.
One spot I know of well is on lower ballymonnen Road. As you walk up the road on one side the path stops long before you can get to the top of the road but there is no way to cross safely at this point without having to almost run across the road because of how busy it is.
Ok you say but if you're a local you know this problem and can avoid it by using the other side of the road. Well no actually because the other side of the road had a house wall the corner of which somehow comes out to the very edge of the path and to get around it you have to step over a kerb and onto the road.
At the bottom of ballymonnen Road is a church with no pedestrian crossing to give access to anyone who decides to walk there so if you are slightly older or sick why would you even tri walking.
Now there are plans to build a large shop at the top of this road. I would think unless these issues are fixed before it is allowed open walking in knocknacarra could get alot less pleasurable

irisheddie85

irisheddie85 wrote: »

Now there are plans to build a large shop at the top of this road. I would think unless these issues are fixed before it is allowed open walking in knocknacarra could get apt less pleasurable

That new development includes plans to address the footpath situation at the top of Ballymoneen rd. Can't remember if the developer offered to sort it or if it was a condition of the planning permission