Cycling/Walking around the city

Mrs OBumble

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Ah yes, but cars (actually motorists) rule Galway, which is really the point.

You see, it's the cyclists who are being asked to walk, not the motorists.

Cyclists are not being asked to walk.

They are being asked to travel the same route that other road-users use.

Or if that sounds too hard, they can hop off the cycle, and become pedestrians for about two minutes. Not a choice that car-users really have - so arguably the cycle-users are receiving better treatment than the car-users.

what_traffic

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They are being asked to travel the same route that other road-users use.

Or if that sounds too hard, they can hop off the cycle, and become pedestrians for about two minutes. Not a choice that car-users really have - so arguably the cycle-users are receiving better treatment than the car-users.

Ah stop the lights - better treatment; if that was the case we would have far more people who cycle than people who drive. We don't!
I believe IWH is just showing that there is a pecking order and people who walk, cycle or take the bus are considered last.

pmasterson95

what_traffic wrote: »

Ah stop the lights - better treatment; if that was the case we would have far more people who cycle than people who drive. We don't!
I believe IWH is just showing that there is a pecking order and people who walk, cycle or take the bus are considered last.

I dont have the option to walk the bus along the path as a shortcut........

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

Ah stop the lights - better treatment; if that was the case we would have far more people who cycle than people who drive. We don't!
.

No we wouldn't and you know it well. Cycling will only ever be a convenient and practical option for a limited enough amount of people no matter how good the cycling facilities are.

Iwannahurl

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Or if that sounds too hard, they can hop off the cycle, and become pedestrians for about two minutes. Not a choice that car-users really have - so arguably the cycle-users are receiving better treatment than the car-users.

Come come, Mrs OBumble. This really will not do. However, I think it's worth debating, because it's a recurring theme with at least two aspects: (1) some people's perception that permeability for cyclists is a non-issue and (2) Irish authorities' ingrained habit of restricting cyclists to facilitate motor traffic.

You are now arguing that there is no discommoding of cyclists, who use their own energy to propel a congestion-busting non-polluting mode of transport. Yet earlier, in response to this post, you said:

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Obviously you don't live 1/2 way down one of them, it's a huge block to have to go around if you live at one end and need to drive in the other direction.

Cyclists have had two major restrictions placed on them to facilitate the traffic management plan (College Road and LAR) while motorists have been given a two-lane one-way system, a configuration which is known to speed up motorised traffic (itself a cycle-hostile effect).

One-way systems, especially the multi-lane versions, are absolutely inimical to commuter and utility cycling. It's not just me saying that, and your claims are flatly contradicted by national policy and international best practice.

The current Galway City Development Plan contains a provision to make one-way streets two-way for cyclists ("where feasible", which seems to be a handy get-out clause). The National Cycle Policy Framework says:

Cycling-friendly means that routes taken by cyclists are safe, direct, coherent, attractive and comfortable.

A new approach is required in which a “hierarchy of measures” is followed. The focus needs to be on ... calming traffic, enforcing low traffic speeds in urban areas ... and removing the cyclist-unfriendly multi-lane one-way street systems.

The current design of many urban roads is still focused on motor powered vehicles, often at the expense of cyclists and pedestrians. Examples include multi-lane one-way streets, large complex junctions - especially roundabouts, left-only slip-lanes and other free-flow arrangements. ... Such designs reflect a bias towards providing for motor powered vehicles.

The concept of “traffic calming” should also be broadened to include physical measures to revise the perceived design speeds of roads, and other measures, such as the removal of one-way street systems.

Multi-lane one-way street systems require cyclists to take detours rather than direct routes. They can also be daunting for cyclists since, if one intends to take a right hand turn at a junction, then one is required to weave across several lanes of (often fast-moving) traffic.

Edited by me for clarity and continuity.

The CTC, Britain's national cycling charity which has championed the cause of cycling for well over a century, says:

One-way systems put cyclists at a disadvantage, making their journeys longer and more stressful. Restoring two-way cycling on one-way streets can significantly improve the safety, convenience and attractiveness of cycling.

Allowing cyclists to ride two-way in one-way streets makes cycling in town and cities more convenient by opening up the street network and providing short-cuts. It can also help make cycling safer by offering alternatives to busy roads, and may help stop people riding on the pavement.

Contra-flow works perfectly safely in many other European countries, where it is already widespread.

As it gives cycling an advantage over driving, contra-flow helps encourage a shift from cars to cycles for short local journeys.

We're years if not decades behind EU best practice in Galway, but even if we're doing nothing about it there's no excuse for not being fully informed.

Iwannahurl

what_traffic wrote: »

Ah stop the lights - better treatment; if that was the case we would have far more people who cycle than people who drive. We don't!

I believe IWH is just showing that there is a pecking order and people who walk, cycle or take the bus are considered last.

It's a nonsensical argument, isn't it?

Basically we are now being told that the LAR traffic management plan is hard on motorists and easy on cyclists.

Yet the obvious real-world acid test is: how many of the car-contained complainers have switched to bikes?

It would of course be absolutely standard for a bunch of motorists to be sitting in their cars moaning about how awful driving is in such circumstances, while looking out the windscreen at cyclists and telling them "you've never had it so good".

But of course this is Galway, Ireland. The penny has a long way to drop yet...

Crumbs868

Iwannahurl wrote: »

But of course this is Galway, Ireland. The penny has a long way to drop yet...

Another post from IWH looking down on the people of Galway. Must be great up there

Iwannahurl

Admittedly I do find the view from a bike is much better than the view I have when driving.

However, as a Galwegian myself (contrary to early attempts to invalidate my opinions by claiming I was a blow-in) my main beef is not with the cosmopolitan burghers of Galway but with the conservative, narrow-minded and doomed ideology that cars should be allowed to dominate the city. That has been the de facto policy in City Hall and connected 'smoke-filled rooms' for decades, and because the number of car users has increased year upon year, it's an ideology that gets a lot of support by default if for no other reason. But it ain't sustainable...

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's a nonsensical argument, isn't it?

Basically we are now being told that the LAR traffic management plan is hard on motorists and easy on cyclists.

Yet the obviousreal-world acid test is: how many of the car-contained complainers have switched to bikes?

It sure is.
Exactly that is the litmus test. That point was unsurprisingly missed by pmasterson95, Trenton Rhythmic Remote and surprisingly by Mrs OBumblein response to my last post.

what_traffic

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Another post from IWH looking down on the people of Galway. Must be great up there

Disagree - IWH is addressing how we can change Galway for the better but of course is frustrated with were we are going, like myself. Why not try and deal with the argument rather than the messenger.

Iwannahurl

Perhaps it's an example of what sociologists call a dominant ideology? In the present context the dominant group and its associated culture is that of the Motoring Majority. There are numerous expressions of that dominance in all -- ahem -- walks of life.

It's a world view that sees motorists, and hence the private car, at the very top of the transportation pecking order. All decisions must be made, and all discussions conducted, according to that unwritten law.

As for "looking down on people", that concept may well be in the eye of the beholder.

pmasterson95

I don't even drive but I suppose its easier to go with the assumption i do to help whats traffic and IWH flimsy arguments.


Its not hard but ranting about EU and emmissions and sociology is interesting when point was raised how cyclists are desperate for equality (or superiority it also seems) but when that means having to slum it with common cars on a detour its an outrage.


If you dont want to cycle route with cars then get off and walk the bike till you can remount it. Thats not an option non-cyclists have. But this convenience is apparently an abomination as is cycling the alternative????

Seems nothing can please cyclists

pmasterson95

what_traffic wrote: »

It sure is.
Exactly that is the litmus test. That point was unsurprisingly missed by pmasterson95, Trenton Rhythmic Remote and surprisingly by Mrs OBumblein response to my last post.

No I got the point. Point is daft.

Iwannahurl

pmasterson95 wrote: »

flimsy arguments.


...

Seems nothing can please cyclists

http://www.smartertravel.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/0902%2002%20EnglishNS1274%20Dept.%20of%20Transport_National_Cycle_Policy_v4%5B1%5D.pdf

what_traffic

what_traffic wrote: »

It sure is.
Exactly that is the litmus test. That point was unsurprisingly missed by pmasterson95, Trenton Rhythmic Remote and surprisingly by Mrs OBumblein response to my last post.

My point was missed (more than likely ignored though as it doesn't suit the "agenda" some posting here have) that cycling will only ever be practical for a limited number of people regardless if they want to cycle or not. There will be a hardcore of cyclists who cycle big distances or cycle in terrible weather etc but for most people and for many reasons cycling just isn't an option.

Iwannahurl

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

for most people and for many reasons cycling just isn't an option.

It's up to Galway City Council, the NTA, the DTTAS et al to make cycling an option, along with public transport and walking.

Business as usual is not an option, for all of us and for many reasons. That the real, and only, agenda.

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It's up to Galway City Council, the NTA, the DTTAS et al to make cycling an option, along with public transport and walking.

Business as usual is not an option, for all of us and for many reasons.

Business as usual is an option, well with improvements such as a bypass and other changes to improve traffic flow. Nothing Galway city council can do will make cycling an option for most people for many reasons such as: distance traveled, transporting multiple people, transporting items, inability to cycle, bad weather etc etc etc. Also simply not wanting to go through the effort if its is a legitimate reason too.

When you and the few others realise that the car is always going to be the best option for transport to, from and around galway city the better for all others reading this forum. You are under the impression that your opinion and that of a tiny minority of people should have precedence over the vast majority, you are kidding yourself and its only going to annoy you week in week out and year in year out by thinking your ideas will ever be implemented.

Nonsensical arguments like taking issue with someone having to walk a bike about 200 metres are doing you no favours either.

what_traffic

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

My point was missed (more than likely ignored though as it doesn't suit the "agenda" some posting here have) that cycling will only ever be practical for a limited number of people regardless if they want to cycle or not. There will be a hardcore of cyclists who cycle big distances or cycle in terrible weather etc but for most people and for many reasons cycling just isn't an option.

You are still missing the point I was making. It must be the agenda that you are pursuing that you are ignoring it. Re-read the point I was addressing that Mrs OBumble made.

Iwannahurl

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Business as usual is an option, well with improvements such as an a bypass. Nothing Galway city council can do will make cycling an option for most people for many reasons some being distance traveled, transporting multiple people, transporting items, inability to cycle, bad weather etc etc. Also simply not wanting to go through the effort if its is a legitimate reason too.

When and other realise that the car is always going to be the best option for transport to, from and around galway city the better for all others reading this forum. You are under the impression that your opinion and that of a tiny minority of people should have precedence over the vast majority, you are kidding yourself.

Which is why I advocate economic measures such as road pricing/congestion charging, to internalise the external costs of car use. People will think with their wallets even when they won't listen to reason.

A similar principle applies to enforcement perhaps. The only reason traffic and parking laws are so widely disrespected is that for the vast majority of offenders there is no penalty. Likewise the majority of commuters are motorists because there are no disincentives to drive and no (external) incentives to walk, cycle or take the bus.

Distance is not an issue: Galway is a small town by EU standards, and 47% of people live 4 km or less from work or education.

Number of passengers is not an issue: most cars are driver-only, and buses can carry far more people far more efficiently than private transport.

Transporting items is not an issue: most car trips are not for carrying goods, and larger items can be transported by other means.

Inability to cycle is not an issue: even a child can do it, and most people are able-bodied.

Bad weather is not an issue: most trips of 5 km and under can be done by bike without being exposed to a significant risk of rain. Besides, there's this marvellous invention called waterproofing. It's only been around since the mid 19th Century, but it might catch on.

Iwannahurl

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

Nonsensical arguments like taking issue with someone having to walk a bike about 200 metres are doing you no favours either.

http://www.smartertravel.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/0902%2002%20EnglishNS1274%20Dept.%20of%20Transport_National_Cycle_Policy_v4%5B1%5D.pdf

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Which is why I advocate economic measures such as road pricing/congestion charging, to internalise the external costs of car use. People will think with their wallets even when they won't listen to reason.

So you want to force people to do things your way despite the majority having absolutely no interest in. You are the one who doesn't listen to reason. You peddle all these things you want to do to prevent people from using their car when people don't want to stop bar nor should they be forced to.

There would be war and I mean proper war if road pricing/congestion charging were even mention in a place like Galway where cars are the key mode of transport for most.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

...no disincentives to drive

nor should there be.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Distance is not an issue: Galway is a small town by EU standards, and 47% of people live 4 km or less from work or education.

I dont believe that stat anyway but that still leave 53% of people who live further away and the thousands who come into the city from around the country everyday. 2km is each way is about as far a normal person is going to be willing to cycle and that only if it suits them.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Number of passengers is not an issue: most cars are driver-only, and buses can carry far more people far more efficiently than private transport. Transporting items is not an issue: most car trips are not for carrying goods, and larger items can be transported by other means.

Nonsense. Most people drop of children to school on the way to work, drop others to work, carry items with them to work, go shopping on the way home, carry items they may need after work etc etc.

By "other means" you mean by inconveniencing themselves and having to go out of their way to carry out tasks which are much more straight forward and practical by using a car.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Inability to cycle is not an issue: even a child can do it, and most people are able-bodied.

Inability to cycle is an issue as there are a lot of people who cycling any sort of distance is not possible physically for various reasons. As for forcing children to cycle distances (as you do), its cruel particularly if they have a number of bags for carrying etc and certainly not until they are in their teenage years should they be cycling any distance.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Bad weather is not an issue: most trips of 5 km and under can be done by bike without being exposed to a significant risk of rain. Besides, there's this marvellous invention called waterproofing. It's only been around since the mid 19th Century, but it might catch on.

Yeah more hassle, carrying water proofs on top of everything else and then getting wet if you don't have them. Then if you are cycling any reasonable distance you will need to have a change of clothes and may even need a shower. More hassle and inconvenience added to what already is a chore of getting up and going to work.

Why should people in this day and age be forced to put themselves through so much hard ship when we can just hop in the car, you must be a glutton for punishment.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

http://www.smartertravel.ie/sites/default/files/uploads/0902%2002%20EnglishNS1274%20Dept.%20of%20Transport_National_Cycle_Policy_v4%5B1%5D.pdf

This is probably the plan that has ruined cork city streets with unused cycles lanes, reducing road space for cars and for parking and increasing traffic problems, dangerously high curbs which are easily hit by cars and tripped over by predestines, contra flow lanes which make junction more dangerous and a number of places where visibility has been severely reduced and accidents have happened purely due to the addition of cycle lanes that are mostly basically an ornament.

pmasterson95

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Which is why I advocate economic measures such as road pricing/congestion charging, to internalise the external costs of car use. People will think with their wallets even when they won't listen to reason.

A similar principle applies to enforcement perhaps. The only reason traffic and parking laws are so widely disrespected is that for the vast majority of offenders there is no penalty. Likewise the majority of commuters are motorists because there are no disincentives to drive and no (external) incentives to walk, cycle or take the bus.

Distance is not an issue: Galway is a small town by EU standards, and 47% of people live 4 km or less from work or education.

Number of passengers is not an issue: most cars are driver-only, and buses can carry far more people far more efficiently than private transport.

Transporting items is not an issue: most car trips are not for carrying goods, and larger items can be transported by other means.

Inability to cycle is not an issue: even a child can do it, and most people are able-bodied.

Bad weather is not an issue: most trips of 5 km and under can be done by bike without being exposed to a significant risk of rain. Besides, there's this marvellous invention called waterproofing. It's only been around since the mid 19th Century, but it might catch on.

I live out past Inverin.
I go to NUIG
Yep those EU stats have proved I should be cycling.

Micilin Muc

pmasterson95 wrote: »

I live out past Inverin.
I go to NUIG
Yep those EU stats have proved I should be cycling.

I cycled Spiddal to Ballybrit for a year. The weather was rarely an issue, neither is the distance. The only problem is the road. It's simply not suitable for anything except cars, buses and trucks, both in terms of road design, and a minority of motorists' attitudes to cyclists which make cycling the coast road too dangerous.

pmasterson95

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I cycled Spiddal to Ballybrit for a year. The weather was rarely an issue, neither is the distance. The only problem is the road. It's simply not suitable for anything except cars, buses and trucks, both in terms of road design, and a minority of motorists' attitudes to cyclists which make cycling the coast road too dangerous.

Inverin is further out than Spiddal......and weather not an issue? What!!! Were ya doing it during winter when theres frost? Or trying to make college for 9 and leaving house while still pitch black?

pmasterson95

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Inverin is further out than Spiddal......and weather not an issue? What!!! Were ya doing it during winter when theres frost? Or trying to make college for 9 and leaving house while still pitch black?

There are a few delusional hard core cyclists out there that will try to convince you cycling these distances regularly is practical its best not to even try to make sense of it.

Expecting a primary school aged child to cycle 3 km to school in all weather with a perfectly good car outside the door is another example of pure stubbornness and meanness which you will hear in these parts.

pmasterson95

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

There are a few delusional hard core cyclists out there that will try to convince you cycling these distances regularly is practical its best not to even try to make sense of it.

Expecting a primary school aged child to cycle 3 km to school in all weather with a perfectly good car outside the door is another example.

The excuse of the roads a bit off aswell. Theres nothing wrong with it.

Iwannahurl

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

1. So you want to force people to do things your way despite the majority having absolutely no interest in. You are the one who doesn't listen to reason. You peddle all these things you want to do to prevent people from using their car when people don't want to stop bar nor should they be forced to.

There would be war and I mean proper war if road pricing/congestion charging were even mention in a place like Galway where cars are the key mode of transport for most.

2. nor should there be [disincentives]

3. I dont believe that stat anyway but that still leave 53% of people who live further away and the thousands who come into the city from around the country everyday. 2km is each way is about as far a normal person is going to be willing to cycle and that only if it suits them.

4. Nonsense. Most people drop of children to school on the way to work, drop others to work, carry items with them to work, go shopping on the way home, carry items they may need after work etc etc.

5. Inability to cycle is an issue as there are a lot of people who cycling any sort of distance is not possible physically for various reasons. As for forcing children to cycle distances (as you do), its cruel particularly if they have a number of bags for carrying etc and certainly not until they are in their teenage years should they be cycling any distance.

6. More hassle and inconvenience added to what already is a chore of getting up and going to work.

7. Why should people in this day and age be forced to put themselves through so much hard ship when we can just hop in the car, you must be a glutton for punishment.

8. This is probably the plan that has ruined cork city streets with unused cycles lanes, reducing road space for cars and for parking and increasing traffic problems, dangerously high curbs which are easily hit by cars and tripped over by predestines, contra flow lanes which make junction more dangerous and a number of places where visibility has been severely reduced and accidents have happened purely due to the addition of cycle lanes that are mostly basically an ornament.

1. It may have to come to that, but given the populist clientelist politics which pervades this pathetic "republic" it'll be a long time coming. There is no political leadership, which is the main problem. However, even if road pricing/congestion charging is not practically or politically feasible for the moment, there may be other economic incentives. Charging for currently free parking is one option. Raising the price of on-street parking is another. Then there are other measures such as the closing of roads to motor traffic. Galway City Council is very adept at closing off routes for cyclists and pedestrians, so perhaps their officials could be made to go to cycling kindergarten in the Netherlands or Denmark, where they could be schooled in the basics.

2. Yes there should be. And there will be, sooner or later.

3. What you believe is irrelevant. The stats show otherwise. 7 or 8 km is easily done on a bike, and there is an even larger proportion of the population resident within that distance or work or education. I wonder whether there is a Laziness Index that could be shown on a map?

4. You're wrong. I can point to figures showing otherwise. Have you any source to support your claim? I'll bet you don't.

5. What's "a lot"? Figures please, from authoritative sources. As for "forcing children to cycle distances (as you do), its cruel particularly if they have a number of bags for carrying etc and certainly not until they are in their teenage years should they be cycling any distance" that is utter garbage, and can only be based on pure ignorance.

6. See point #3 above.

7. Oh dear. This is your idea of real hardship, is it?

8. So you think the streets of Cork City have become more dangerous? Any stats to back up that assertion?

Iwannahurl

pmasterson95 wrote: »

and weather not an issue? What!!! Were ya doing it during winter when theres frost?

Spiddal to Eyre Square is about 19 km afaik. A commute of that sort would be exposed to a higher probability of rain than a commute < 5 km within the city.

Weather is not an issue for most short trips in the city. This claim is made over and over again by people who have nothing to go on except their own perceptions and prejudices.

It's a false claim and a red herring: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90532385&postcount=399

If you cycled to work in Dublin, you’d have only an 11% chance of rain falling on you in the morning or evening. The chances of getting wet twice in the one day are only 1%.

http://www.smartertravelworkplaces.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Cycle_Poster.pdf

Micilin Muc

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Inverin is further out than Spiddal......and weather not an issue? What!!! Were ya doing it during winter when theres frost? Or trying to make college for 9 and leaving house while still pitch black?

I cycled from November to November. The weather was not an issue except in January '14 when there was a few weeks of storms with strong wind. The days it was wet, I got wet, and changed into my office clothes when I got in. I never encountered frost on the coast road, it's too close to the sea. I made it into work for a range of times from 7.30am to 10am, and I had lights for when it was pitch black. I saved probably a few thousand euro that year on travel costs.

I had a 55 years+ colleague who was a grandmother who lived near Coill Rua and she cycled three days a week too.

MarysCurtins

Camilo Tight Shrew wrote: »

There are a few delusional hard core cyclists out there that will try to convince you cycling these distances regularly is practical its best not to even try to make sense of it.

Expecting a primary school aged child to cycle 3 km to school in all weather with a perfectly good car outside the door is another example of pure stubbornness and meanness which you will hear in these parts.

It's not down to meanness or stubbornness, their mantra is "cars are bad", "I hate cars" and nothing will change that. Some people post incessantly in these threads trying to pass themselves off as some sort of experts on the subject,yet when it comes to devising a 'solution' it's nothing more than "cars are bad", nothing that would improve the situation for all commuters is ever offered. It's quite obvious they don't really have an interest in offering solutions when they suggest a bypass should not be built because people in cars will use it for commuting across town as well as going around the city. I mean the thought of people using a bypass and thus not going through the city centre is ridiculous, imagine less motorised traffic in the city! buses might not be held up as much and be on time more! pedestrians would find it easier to get across roads! we can't be having that.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Galway City Council is very adept at closing off routes for cyclists and pedestrians

Which routes have been closed to cyclists and pedestrians but are still open to cars? sorry for asking but I cant think of which ones you are talking about.