David Norris - Post-Revelations

dvpower

carlos D wrote: »

Whereas Norris and his supporters repeatedly and (as evident from the vitriol on these forums) consdescendingly tried to call anyone who dared to question him a homophobe and a bigot.

That's not true.

mikemac

Not Norris himself but it's true for many of his supporters

Last night I was reading here about the bogger culchie media while people in cities were cultured and more advanced

There are a few here desperate to be seen as liberal

CramCycle

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

If a male of a mature age came onto my son OR daughter i would actually kill them to be honest.

Same here, if she said it was OK, she had consented, I'd accept that she would never talk to me again as the next thing that was going to happen was me ripping his head clear from his shoulders and **** anyone who says that is an overreaction. On the other hand it was a 15yo boy, I would sit him down and have a chat, make sure there is understanding of what is going on and what the risks are and what is acceptable and what is not. I wouldn't like this conversation but I would have to stomach it because deep down I know this boy did not do anything wrong.

Someone at the age of 15 does not fully understand the world and what they are doing. Someone at the age of 40 should and should accept the consequences if they cross that line. For those of you who do not have a child in your house, I am sorry you may not understand, I hope you do but if you don't, no amount of explaining will get it across.

As for what Norris did, he took the side of the 40yo in this case, while nowhere near as wrong, he should understand that his representations are inappropriate and reprehensible. I would make it my business to ensure someone who carries such views was never in any position of authority as I believe it would be a dangerous thing.

deirdre_dub

Einhard wrote: »

Are you claiming the trial was unfair?

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, when someone pleads guilty, there isn't much of a trial. Which is one of the reasons why the authorities like to get a guilty plea from an accused.

CdeC

I am gay

I don't agree with sex with a minor.

I do respect a man who is loyal and doesn't turn his back on a friend.

What David Norris did was use his position of influence to give a character reference. He also denounced Ezri Nawis actions in the letters.
Anyone else would do the same. this revelation speaks of his integrity and it seems to be one of the lowest political crimes committed in this country in tha last 20 years.

Look at what all the other polititians have done with their political influence and then reexamine senator Norris' record.

Biggins

Well Higgins looks to win as runner up now: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/david-norris-pulls-out-of-race-to-be-the-next-president-2837622.html

Norris officially out.

Interesting that on the Independent poll, "None of the above" gets 45%
Says a lot about the quality of the rest as regarded by the public.
See: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/who-gets-your-vote-2837572.html

sock puppet

carlos D wrote: »

There was nothing that Gay Mitchell did that was inconsistent with his beliefs.He is pro-life,there was a high profile case of a someone with similar views to his who committed a murder,and Gay Mitchell hearing of it opposed it on the basis that he is opposed to the Death Penalty. Seems fairly straight forward.

And there have been plenty of other high profile multiple murderers in the US over the years.

If people are equating Norris' letter with tacit support for the act then the same standards should be applied to Mitchell.

keanooo

One thing Norris forgot in his press conference was a big "Thank you", to all the fair-weather supporters for kicking him while he was down.

Take a bow...

Sunnyisland

CramCycle wrote: »

Someone at the age of 15 does not fully understand the world and what they are doing. Someone at the age of 40 should and should accept the consequences if they cross that line. For those of you who do not have a child in your house, I am sorry you may not understand, I hope you do but if you don't, no amount of explaining will get it across.

As for what Norris did, he took the side of the 40yo in this case, while nowhere near as wrong, he should understand that his representations are inappropriate and reprehensible. I would make it my business to ensure someone who carries such views was never in any position of authority as I believe it would be a dangerous thing.

Well said.

CramCycle

dvpower wrote: »

Clientelism has been the backbone of our system for generations. Half the people who attend constituency clinics are looking for their TD to use their influence to get something done or some queue skipped.

The unfortunate problem with Irish politics, these are things that local councillors should be dealing with but don't have to as the TDs are busy wasting there time with it.

K-9 wrote: »

What has he actually achieved though?

Kind of my point, forgot about Davis, actually, going to watch her video (http://vimeo.com/25869136) to get a better opinion of her.

dvpower wrote: »

Anyway, do we know did Gay Mitchell use any official capacity to add weight to his representations or was it a private matter?

Like it or not, when elected all of views would be seen as coming from the mouth of a TD,

dvpower

mikemac wrote: »

Not Norris himself but it's true for many of his supporters

Last night I was reading here about the bogger culchie media while people in cities were cultured and more advanced

There are a few here desperate to be seen as liberal

There was a bit of playing the homophobia card on here. Equally there was a fair bit of blatant anti gay rethoric (one good thing to come out of the end of his campaign is that we can all be spared the 'another Mary in the park' and 'will he take it up the Aras?' posts).

I presume the 'bogger culchie media' poster got slated.

mikemac

Biggins wrote: »

Well Higgins looks to win as runner up now:

Higgins was favorite with some bookies for the last two weeks, before any of this letter news broke

Spread had been posting odds in the other thread

So it's not quite winning as runner-up

Einhard

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, when someone pleads guilty, there isn't much of a trial. Which is one of the reasons why the authorities like to get a guilty plea from an accused.

So there was nothing unfair about his conviction?

CdeC wrote: »

I do respect a man who is loyal and doesn't turn his back on a friend.

I'd respect him more if he had re-evaluated his friendship after he discovered his lover was engaged in sexual relations with a 15 y/o.

Anyone else would do the same.

Speak for yourself. I tend not to associate with people who have sex with young teenagers, let alone defend their good character.

this revelation speaks of his integrity

Wow. Intervening to get a reduced sentence for someone convicted of statutory rape, and speaking towards his good character, is now indicative of integrity? Talk about Doublethink!

dvpower

CramCycle wrote: »

Like it or not, when elected all of views would be seen as coming from the mouth of a TD,

Often the very same views that got them elected in the first place.

goat2

mikemac wrote: »

Not Norris himself but it's true for many of his supporters

Last night I was reading here about the bogger culchie media while people in cities were cultured and more advanced

There are a few here desperate to be seen as liberal

i also read those posts, making out that the country cousins are backward, stupid, i am disgusted with that old kind of attitude

carlos D

dvpower wrote: »

That's not true.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/despite-a-dirty-fight-norris-says-he-will-be-next-president-2672695.html

'But I do believe there are certain forces in this country that realise somebody who is on the margins, somebody who is Independent and was never part of any political party, could actually become President -- and that has them concerned. Whether they are a lot of individuals, or one individual, the intention is to divert me from my path, but I shall not be diverted. I also believe that people who have extreme religious views have been upset by me."And I think there is an attempt to invert the whole situation. What is being said by some of these right-wing commentators is that the liberal agenda is winning and that because I am gay I'm privileged, and that gay people are privileged and that nobody dares to criticise them.
"That's rubbish! That's the same kind of thing as saying it is fashionable to be gay. They should try it sometime, even now, when kids are being bullied out of schools [because they are gay] and teachers are doing nothing about it.'



I couldn't care less about a conspiracy,my religious views don't stop me from knowing gay people and I went to a rough all boys school with some openly gay people who I never once saw being even criticised for being gay,so that's a full on pile of ****e.


This letter to his supporters is very condescending also
http://www.norrisforpresident.ie/campaign_news/letter-to-supporters

He calls the Pope a Nazi and then says he has nothing against Catholics,gimme a break.
He also goes into pedasty,Cathal O'Searcaigh and the age of consent and won't shut up about it.He marked himself out as the candidate for esoteric views on sexuality rather than actually trying to appeal to people.

dvpower

carlos D wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/despite-a-dirty-fight-norris-says-he-will-be-next-president-2672695.html

'But I do believe there are certain forces in this country that realise somebody who is on the margins, somebody who is Independent and was never part of any political party, could actually become President -- and that has them concerned. Whether they are a lot of individuals, or one individual, the intention is to divert me from my path, but I shall not be diverted. I also believe that people who have extreme religious views have been upset by me."And I think there is an attempt to invert the whole situation. What is being said by some of these right-wing commentators is that the liberal agenda is winning and that because I am gay I'm privileged, and that gay people are privileged and that nobody dares to criticise them.
"That's rubbish! That's the same kind of thing as saying it is fashionable to be gay. They should try it sometime, even now, when kids are being bullied out of schools [because they are gay] and teachers are doing nothing about it.'



I couldn't care less about a conspiracy,my religious views don't stop me from knowing gay people and I went to a rough all boys school with some openly gay people who I never once saw being even criticised for being gay,so that's a full on pile of ****e.


This letter to his supporters is very condescending also
http://www.norrisforpresident.ie/campaign_news/letter-to-supporters

He calls the Pope a Nazi and then says he has nothing against Catholics,gimme a break.
He also goes into pedasty,Cathal O'Searcaigh and the age of consent and won't shut up about it.He marked himself out as the candidate for esoteric views on sexuality rather than actually trying to appeal to people.

Is this supposed to be evidence that "David Norris repeatedly and consdescendingly tried to call anyone who dared to question him a homophobe and a bigot." ?

Really?

Edit: Where do you see the condescension in the campaign letter you linked? I'm not feeling it.

Biggins

mikemac wrote: »

Higgins was favorite with some bookies for the last two weeks, before any of this letter news broke

Spread had been posting odds in the other thread

So it's not quite winning as runner-up

Odd in bookies to be fair, is not entirely accurate - unlike polls with a 3% margin which are usually better indicators (while also fallible too).

Killer Pigeon

CdeC wrote: »

I am gay

I don't agree with sex with a minor.

I do respect a man who is loyal and doesn't turn his back on a friend.

What David Norris did was use his position of influence to give a character reference. He also denounced Ezri Nawis actions in the letters.
Anyone else would do the same. this revelation speaks of his integrity and it seems to be one of the lowest political crimes committed in this country in tha last 20 years.

Look at what all the other polititians have done with their political influence and then reexamine senator Norris' record.

Well now, in fairness, he went a little further than using his position just to give a character reference. I quote the last paragraph of his letter;

However my most urgent plea would not be on technical grounds, which at the end of the day I feel diffident in attempting to argue before this distinguished court. The strongest argument is ad misericordiam. Secure in the knowledge that Mr. Yizhak will not offend again in the same way, that he is prepared to make financial compensation available to the young man involved, that lasting and perhaps permanent damage will be done to his psychological and material welfare by being imprisoned, by virtue of the fact that his elderly mother's principal support and reassurance will be removed, I earnestly beg that the court may see the possibility of securing justice not by sending him to prison but by imposing a non custodial sentence.

Senator David Norris
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf

He went so far as to beg the judiciary to impose a lighter sentence for a very serious crime. It doesn't matter if he was his friend or not, it shouldn't have gotten involved. He should have had more sense and respected the country's judicial process, especially given the severity of the case. If anything like that happened in this country there would be massive political uproar; it would be far from the "lowest political crime". The fact that he is gay is quite inconsequential. In my opinion, Norris should uphold the last ounce of integrity he has and resign from the Seanad and cut short his presidential bid.

Revelation that have come out about Norris over the past few months have only reinforce some negative stereotype surrounding gay people. He should no longer be considered the hierarchical vox populi of the LGBT community that he makes himself out to be.

Toby Take a Bow

carlos D wrote: »

I couldn't care less about a conspiracy,my religious views don't stop me from knowing gay people and I went to a rough all boys school with some openly gay people who I never once saw being even criticised for being gay,so that's a full on pile of ****e.

That's great, sounds like your school was very progressive. I know in my school, people were relentlessly hounded for being gay. In some cases, the people in question were actually not even gay.

Lady Chatterton

Anton Savage is sitting in for Matt Cooper this week (Today FM). He is going to have an exclusive interview with David Norris after 5pm.

CdeC

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

He went so far as to beg the judiciary to impose a lighter sentence for a very serious crime. It doesn't matter if he was his friend or not, it shouldn't have gotten involved, he should have had more sense and respected the country's judicial process, especially given the severity of the case.

I would hardly call the consensual sex between an older and younger person a VERY serious crime. Yes it is a crime and I do not agree with it and I do feel that there should be a law protecting young people but the truth of the matter is that 15 year old boys are sexual and if you are gay you will look for sex with older men as a consequence of there not being an appropriate alternative. ie. : boys your own age. It is like that in Ireland and I am sure that it is even more difficult for young gay men in Palestine. Again I do not agree with it but I think that we need to put it in context. It is not the same as attacking and raping or murdering someone

I feel that Senator Norris actions reflect his feelings towards his ex partner and I would do the same thing for someone I love. He is stating the fact that a non custodial sentence may be of benefit as another person (Ezris mother) will also suffer.

Biggins

Norris statement in full:

Firstly, let me say that I am overwhelmed by the good wishes I have received from the four corners of Ireland.

I would like to offer my grateful thanks and appreciation to all of my team which was composed of over 300 volunteers from across this country.

I would like to say that I respect and understand the decisions taken by the team and this has not in any way altered my appreciation for their contribution to the campaign.

I deeply regret the most recent of all the controversies concerning my former partner of twenty five years ago, Ezra Nawi.

The fallout from his disgraceful behaviour has now spread to me and is in danger of contaminating others close to me both in my political and personal life. It is essential that I act decisively now to halt this negative process.

I do not regret supporting and seeking clemency for a friend, but I do regret giving the impression that I did not have sufficient compassion for the victim of Ezra’s crime.

I accept that more than a decade and a half later when I have now reviewed the issue, and am not emotionally involved, when I am not afraid that Ezra might take his own life, I see that I was wrong.

He served his time and never offended again.

Yes, his actions were terrible but my motivation to write the letter was out of love and concern.

I was eager to support someone who had been very important in my life.

I have been involved in many campaigns and have written many hundreds of letters on behalf of people in every Continent – persecuted Tibetan monks, East Timorese, death row prisoners in the US.

As a Senator I have always been an active and vibrant voice for those vulnerable and marginalised in society. So it is very sad that in trying to help a person I loved dearly I made a human error.

Finally I would like to give my thanks to you, the Irish people. Thank you for your support and helping me in the times that I have succeeded and in times of difficulty.

So here I am today outside my home where all my great journeys have begun to announce the end of my presidential campaign. This has been a most wonderful experience despite the trauma and energy expended.

I have had the opportunity to visit every corner of this great country of ours and to bear witness to the wonderful work done by the Irish people in difficult circumstances.

I believe that I can point to two significant achievements as a result of my entry into the race. Whatever doubt there may have been about the holding of an election was ended by my determined candidacy. The presidency of Ireland belongs to the people and not any party or sectional interest.

Secondly, this process has thrown up issues that make it clear that the whole question of the way in which candidates are nominated must be examined urgently by the government, a commitment given by all the parties in 1998, but never acted upon.

I have also demonstrated that it is now possible for a gay person to be seen as a viable candidate for the highest office in the land. I would have loved to have had the opportunity as president of Ireland to extend that to the service of the entire people by that is no longer possible.

The election is now entering a new phase of reality and I hope that it will be conducted in a way that is dignified and respectful of the office of President and of the remaining candidates.

At the beginning of my campaign I pledged that I would fight exclusively on what I saw as my strengths and what I could contribute to the welfare of the Irish people. I believe that I have done so with the dignity and decorum that would be rightly expected of any presidential candidate.

It has always been a principle of mine not to yield control of my life or my principles to others.

The recent frenzy threatened to erode that principle and it is now time for me to reassert as far as possible control of my life and destiny.

As I came across the Samuel Beckett bridge today into my mind came his words about humanity and frailty.

“Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better”.

http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-quits-presidential-race-his-statement-in-full-191639-Aug2011/

tayto lover

Biggins wrote: »

Norris statement in full:


http://www.thejournal.ie/norris-quits-presidential-race-his-statement-in-full-191639-Aug2011/

Was D.N. still involved with Nawi when this incident happened. There seems to be a discrepancy regarding the length of their relationship. Was this crime committed while they were still together ?

Biggins

tayto lover wrote: »

Was D.N. still involved with Nawi when this incident happened. There seems to be a discrepancy regarding the length of their relationship. Was this crime committed while they were still together ?

I don't know myself. Maybe some else here can say.

Killer Pigeon

CdeC wrote: »

I would hardly call the consensual sex between an older and younger person a VERY serious crime. Yes it is a crime and I do not agree with it and I do feel that there should be a law protecting young people but the truth of the matter is that 15 year old boys are sexual and if you are gay you will look for sex with older men as a consequence of there not being an appropriate alternative. ie. : boys your own age.

Excuse me I'm gay (yes, first time I've openly admitted it here on boards) and when I was 15 y/o I certainly was not looking for sex with an older 40 y/o man. I never even considered it. I would have rather not having sex at all than having sex with a 40 y/o man. Besides, a mature adult man/woman should have more sense and know better than to have sex with people under the age of consent. Should they (the mature sensible adult) give in to the apparent requests of a less mature and less sensible 15 y/o minor? It applies to people of all sexual orientations.

CdeC wrote: »

I feel that Senator Norris actions reflect his feelings towards his ex partner and I would do the same thing for someone I love. He is stating the fact that a non custodial sentence may be of benefit as another person (Ezris mother) will also suffer.

It doesn't matter, he was still trying to interfere in the judicial process of Israel whether you like it or not. If a politician tried to interfere with a judge's decision like that just because the accused was his/her friend and especially in a case of an adult engaging in carnal knowledge with a minor, there would be public uproar. The politician would be expected to and should resign. Simple as that.

Lady Chatterton

Paddy Power has started refunding bets now

David Norris Refund

Dear Mrs ****,

After a turbulent few days, Senator David Norris has announced that he is to withdraw from the presidential campaign.

We like to see punters get a proper run for their money, so Paddy Power are refunding all single bets placed on the one-time favourite.
So have a look in your account, there should be a nice surprise waiting for you!

The team at Paddy Power

Min

tayto lover wrote: »

Was D.N. still involved with Nawi when this incident happened. There seems to be a discrepancy regarding the length of their relationship. Was this crime committed while they were still together ?

David Norris told the Sunday Independent it ended in 1985.
David Norris told Joe Jackson it ended in 2001.
The Mail reported it is ended four years after the conviction.

Kev_ps3

Glad he pulled out. Dizzy liberal voters will have to look elsewhere now

wonderfulname

mgmt wrote: »

Here is Norris defending another child abuser.

http://www.senatordavidnorris.ie/blogger/2008/03/order-of-business-11th-march-2008.html

Did you even read that? Or did you just google "Norris Ó Searcaigh" and post the first thing that came up, wrongly assuming it would support your viewpoint?

Chairman Meow wrote: »

So basically, this guy was doing what the catholic church was trying to do in Cloyne, i.e. cover up sexual abuse?

1. He did not attempt to cover anything up.
2. There is a very serious difference between sexual abuse and consensual sex with a minor, neither are acceptable, but one is considerably worse than the other.

starbelgrade wrote: »

Even if he received the majority of the Dublin vote, he would have gotten very few votes outside Dublin.

Could you explain how you arrived at such an conclusion? Because from my own experience it's blind assumption, the rest of the country isn't that far out of kilter with Dublin at all.

carlos D wrote: »

Sorry, PEDASTRY. Grooming vulnerable young boys by any other name is still grooming young vulnerable boys. A disgusting act of self-delusion by self-serving intellectual degenerates.

As above, there is a serious difference between "grooming young vulnerable boys" and consensual sex with a minor. As of yet, nobody has managed to even show if the man was aware of the crime at the time, and yes it is possible he wasn't, as a 15 year old girl I would have gone out, drank in pubs, had the craic and been hit on by older guys who assumed I was about twenty, at that age I had the capacity to say no, nobody should be making assumptions as to the nature of the crime, not least because it is completely irrelevant.

The calibre of the other candidates is quite frankly appalling, with the exception of Higgins, although he isn't the most presidential either... hopefully the media scrutinises them all with the vigour they did Norris, is there any possibility of another potential candidate joining the fray at this stage?