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SBS Show On Australian Migration Boom
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31-07-2011 2:55pm#1This show aired here in Oz last week on SBS
Australia is in the midst of a resource rush and there simply aren’t enough suitable people to fill all the jobs. In the next four years alone, it’s estimated we’ll need another 2.4 million skilled workers.
But what’s the best way to get them?
The federal government’s new system – which came into effect this month – is making it easier than ever for Australian businesses to bring in overseas labour. But while skilled migration is a quick solution, there are concerns that it means local workers are less likely to receive valuable training.
And it doesn’t always work out well for the migrants either. There are scores of engineers, nurses and accountants who come all the way to Australia and end up as cleaners.
Insight looks at what is the best outcome for migrants themselves, for Australia’s skilled workforce, and for the wider population.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhEwwpf_Qzw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBEEDDu3VXIComments
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The video seemed to end at the last bit so there would be no missing part 3
Have a Transcript of the missing bit instead.JENNY BROCKIE: Tonight we are talking about the boom in skilled migration and it's implications for all of us. Rupert Merrick, I wanted to talk to you because you run a global employment Expos where companies try to lure people to Australia. How does that work? How do the Expos work?
RUPERT MERRICK, MIGRATION EVENT ORGANISER: Basically we run fairs called the Opportunities Australia Expo. We run them in South Africa the UK, and Canada. And essentially they provide a platform for Australian companies who are suffering from the skilled shortage, to go overseas and meet directly with skilled migrants who are looking at exploring or making the move to Australia.
The clients that we tend to work with are looking for people with 10 plus years experience so quite highly experienced people in the engineers, mining, oil and gas, health IT, but the whole aim is for that to happen offshore, sponsor the people, relocate them and manage the move so when they arrive they can hit the ground running in those jobs.
JENNY BROCKIE: You say it is like speed dating.
RUPERT MERRICK: At the Expos you have people coming around with their CVs but they have their wives and husbands and partners there and they are meeting with the employers and it is a quick match to see what is motivating them to do the move and what their skill set is, but after the Expo that is where the real typical HR process takes place where they sit down and do proper interviews and then start that interview process from there.
JENNY BROCKIE: What are people expecting in terms of when they come to Australia – what do people expect?
RUPERT MERRICK: I think the whole thing about expectations is really important. We spend a lot of time talking to our clients about managing the expectation of the hiring managers within their companies, about what it means to bring internationals on, but also when they are selling or talking to the migrants about the move, managing their expect takes about the cities they are going to move to, the condition on the jobs because the family is moving and it is a life-changing move. Likewise, with the migrant they need to manage expectations within their family about what that relocation process is because it is not always easy. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
JENNY BROCKIE: Karmvir, did you have high expectations when you came here, did it live up to what you thought it would be like?
KARMVIR SINGH: Not very much, but it is good.
JENNY BROCKIE: You didn't have high expectations or you did? Or you did?
KARMVIR SINGH: Yeah, I expect - sorry, pardon me.
JENNY BROCKIE: So it was what you expected?
KARMVIR SINGH: Yeah.
JENNY BROCKIE: Peter Goode how are you securing employees, you were talking before on how difficult it is and how much competition there is, how are you securing them now?
PETER GOODE: Well it is very difficult, you have to make yourself a valued employer which is very important. It is not all about money. In fact, it is often not about money, it is about being a valued employer, about being a company that people want to come and work for where you can provide them with challenging careers and you can provide them with good training to attract apprentices for example, it is a very competitive market. You have to present yourself as a superior employer.
JENNY BROCKIE: Where are you getting your workers from overseas?
PETER GOODE: We are getting them from South Africa, Philippines, Zimbabwe, we have several workers in from there. But what is interesting, it is not just an influx into Australia there is a global issue around bringing skilled workers in and for example I was recently in Calgary where we send a lot of Australians over to work in our business in Canada, and we are looking similarly to bring Filipino workers and Indian workers into Calgary into those oil areas. In fact, Rupert and his group were over there trying to recruit Canadians to come to Australia at the same time. So there is international competition for the same skills sets as well.
JENNY BROCKIE: How do you as an employer find the work ethic of the skilled migrants compared to Australian workers?
PETER GOODE: I think it is the same. The skilled migrants coming in from overseas have a very good work ethic and I think we should be proud of the work ethic that our own workers have. I would say as long as they are appropriately skilled and they have the experience for the job, there really is little difference.
JENNY BROCKIE: Jared, work ethic?
JARED FITZCLARENCE: Obviously it is dependent on the employee but there tends to be a vast difference between the two as an overall….
JENNY BROCKIE: Between local workers and migrants?
JARED FITZCLARENCE: Yes, between local workers and migrant workers, Singh for instance - people often say that employees abuse immigrant workers and I certainly try not to. He might tell you otherwise, but that is up to him.
JENNY BROCKIE: You said there was a difference, what is the difference?
JARED FITZCLARENCE: I can rely on Singh to turn up on time in the morning, he will work the hours, he will do a good job all day, he will take his half an hour lunch break, he won’t decide ‘oh, it is going to be an hour today’ and not tell me, where as opposed to Australian workers quite often, "Oh, sorry, I got hung over yesterday so that is why I didn't turn up." Or, "Yeah, I just didn't tell you I was going to go and take an hour's lunch today." That can be quite difficult to manage in a small business where you can be very dependent on individual workers to be responsible and reliable.
JENNY BROCKIE: Anyone like to pick up on that, a few gasps going around the room I heard. Dave Campbell, you’re a tiler on some of the big buildings going up in Queensland, your reaction to that comment about work ethic?
DAVE CAMPBELL: I found - sorry, what was his name, Singh, does he have his family over here? Getting drunk and stuff like that and being hung over - nobody likes that and it shouldn't happen, but in regards to if his family is over here. My partner is legally blind so we have issues that I have to deal with there. I have a young baby, sometimes I have to do things like that. With my family being here I find that I do have responsibilities like my partner cannot drive, so I have to do things - sometimes I have a day off work to do stuff like that. Where as if a migrant worker comes and he is by himself he does not have the family commitments.
JARED FITZCLARENCE: No.
DAVE CAMPBELL: When you say about people getting on the grog, OK, look, they are not good workers are they. Me, personally I don't drink so I don't have that problem.
JARED FITZCLARENCE: Likewise.
JENNY BROCKIE: You don't have to defend yourself.. I am just interested.
DAVE CAMPBELL: If you have family commitments on this side and then the migrant workers come and they don't –
JENNY BROCKIE: I think you have made your point.
JARED FITZCLARENCE: It is a very good point and Singh does actually have his family over here but his family is located in Perth for the education opportunities for his daughters. I work closely with him, Singh is going to spend a couple of days later this week in Perth with his family for his daughter’s birthday so he has come to me and said, "You know Jared , it is my daughter's birthday and I would like to spend a couple of days in Perth", and I say, sure, no worries and we organise it and he goes and has a few days off. It is that difference between of, "Sorry, I forgot to tell you", and I am not saying this across the board but there this is something we experience particularly up there.
JENNY BROCKIE: Dave, I know that you went to the union about migrant workers on one of your sites. Why?
DAVE CAMPBELL: In January this year we were working for a company who were under paying all of the entitlements under the EBA. We went to the CFMEU to get all of our entitlements and we were told that our services were no longer needed. So they were virtually saying, okay, you want your all your entitlements we don't want you to work for us any more because we have 457, student visas workers that will work for what we want to give them and, so, we no longer require your services.
JENNY BROCKIE: Dave Noonan, you are from the union, is there hard evidence that skilled migrants are getting the jobs at the expense of local workers and they are not properly compensated?
DAVE NOONAN, NATIONAL SECRETARY, CFMEU: Firstly it is important to know that our union is made up from workers from all around the world. We are not inward looking and we are not zenaphobic. But there is a problem, an entrenched problem in the construction industry in Australia with the exploitation of workers on temporary work visas and indeed workers who have no work rights here at all.
JENNY BROCKIE: An entrenched problem?
DAVE NOONAN: Yes, we have seen serious problems, at one particular construction site in Western Australia in the same trade that Dave works in – wall and floor tiling - we have seen the exploitation there of guest workers from Korea and from China. On the same particular site we recovered $130,000 in back pay for workers working in a wall and ceiling fixing company, a gyprock company. Now in that particular case, those workers were being paid the Australian legal rate, the EBA rate if you like, but what we discovered was that each week they were being forced to pay back up to $700 to their employer after they had been paid and paid tax. These sorts of practices are not universal but they are widespread and in an industry like construction, which relies on tendering and relies on people being able to price work, unfortunately those who do exploit guest workers those who don't train apprentice, those two don't invest in the industry and engage in sham contracting are benefiting at the expense of legitimate employers who are doing the right thing, paying proper rates and training apprentices and that needs to be dealt with.
JENNY BROCKIE: Chris Evans, we are hearing these reports of illegal my grant workers being underpaid but what about skilled workers on visa, how well protected are they and how aware of you of what is going on?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: There was a lot of abuse of the 457 system and that is one of the reasons why this Government changed the law, we changed the law to ensure that an overseas worker had to be paid exactly the same as an Australian worker. The price for an overseas worker had to be higher because you have to pay the travel and other arrangements. So, we changed the law to make sure that overseas workers could not undercut the Australian wages and conditions - that has cleaned up a lot of the problems. It has made a difference.
The current Immigration Minister announced some new powers the other day to try and be able to prosecute employers who didn't do the right thing. I must say, most of the abuse is not of 457 workers it is often of people here illegally or people on other visas being exploited. It is a problem but I just point out there is a lot of myths about the 457 scheme. I think there is about 70 or 80,000 currently in the country. 70% of them are professionals. 70% of them are professionals. The urban myth is that there are all these low-skilled, low-paid workers in the country. Most of the people here who are on 457s are in the mining industry or in the health service industry. This is not a scheme about low paid workers. It is a scheme where the vast majority in the scheme are professionals.
JENNY BROCKIE: Even if the vast majority are professionals, we are still hearing reports that inspections of sites have dropped off, that monitoring has been halved of some of these arrangements why is that?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: I don't accept most of those claims. The reality is that we changed the law, the Work Protection Act to give those workers more protection, to give them Australian wages and conditions. The unions have been very active and very effective, the CMFEU have done a good job, there are sectors of the industry where there have been problems over the years. As I say a lot of them are people who overstayed visitor visas or tourist visas and are being exploited and we are moved to get the immigration department more powers to prosecute employers, but quite frankly, a lot of work has been done to clean up that side of the immigration system and as I say, there is a few myths around. The reality is the scheme serves Australia very well and it largely provides us with doctors and nurses and –
JENNY BROCKIE: And people like Jane.
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: And people in the mining industry, many of people who convert to permanency and become good Australian citizens.
JENNY BROCKIE: A quick response from you Dave and then we will move on.
DAVE NOONAN: I think it is welcome that this government did make some reforms in terms of the amounts people were paid but there is a long way between that and enforcement and current the enforcement is inadequate, not just in respect to 457s but in relation to a whole lot of other visa categories. The last point I would like to make –
JENNY BROCKIE: I do have to move on…
DAVE NOONAN: It is a simple one Jenny and that is this. We advocated that before Australian employers look for temporary workers overseas they ought to be obliged to show that they have tried to get local workers who have suitable skills first. That is not part of the current immigration scheme and it should be.
JENNY BROCKIE: Natalia, can I just bring you in here because you have been listening to all of this. You came to Australia, to Melbourne, three years ago as a general skilled migrant which means you don't have a sponsor. Why did you come to Australia?
NATALIA GARCIA: To look for a better life actually.
JENNY BROCKIE: And you used a migration agent to get here.
NATALIA GARCIA: Yes, I did.
JENNY BROCKIE: What did that person tell you?
NATALIA GARCIA: My country I went to an immigration agent and he said you are engineer, you have seven years of experience. They are desperate for you.
JENNY BROCKIE: For engineers?
NATALIA GARCIA: Yes. In Australia the engineers have a very good salary so you will be able to - the money that you are paying us you will be able to get about quite easy.
JENNY BROCKIE: So you were in Colombia. You wanted to be an engineer, you came here to be an engineer, what are you doing at the moment?
NATALIA GARCIA: Cleaning.
JENNY BROCKIE: Cleaning, how long have been cleaning?
NATALIA GARCIA: Three years.
JENNY BROCKIE: Why is it so hard for you to get a job, do you think?
NATALIA GARCIA: I have heard things like my experience is not reliable because it is not in Australia or I don’t have local experience or I just don't hear back from the recruiters or the companies. I get the emails in that your application has been unsuccessful and this is the only thing I get from them.
JENNY BROCKIE: Chris Evans, we do hear stories about this - that people coming here with skills and ending up driving cabs or whatever. Why does that happen and is there a way of utilising some of that resource as well that is here already better?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: I think there are two points. Firstly, I don't think Australia has been very good at recognises overseas qualifications or recognising overseas experience, and culturally we haven't been very open to people from non-English speaking cultures, so I think there is a barrier there. One of the reasons we tried to change the immigration system to make employer nominations is very much because of that sort of story.
It is the same with students that studied here and graduated. Their employment outcomes were not great and the employment sponsor link means that an employer is prepared to give you a job when you arrive. It is verification that the skills you have are in demand because you have a job. What we found is that the matching between the general skilled migration and job outcomes has not been good for a variety of reasons, but it is true to say that in Australia we have not been very open to non-English speaking migrant’s previous qualifications. It is a real blight on us.
JENNY BROCKIE: So what are we doing about that?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: There is a lot of effort going in to trying to open up those systems but I think there are entrenched resistance among employers and some agencies, I think, to recognising some of the skills and experiences from overseas
NATALIA GARCIA: I think the skilled migrants are not getting enough support when they are coming here. We come to the major cities because it is what we know, and the agents outside Australia say, "It is Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, Brisbane, go there and you will find a job”.
If I go to some assistance from the government and they tell me we don't need you there, we need you in a small town and we are going to provide you some assistance to get there, to know the market, to know the people there, probably I will go. But we are not getting that.
JENNY BROCKIE: OK. Ross, did you want to say something?
ROSS GITTENS: Look, I think this is a very important point and I don't think the Government has adequately covered it. They allow these people in because they are skilled and then maybe sometimes it is a question of employer prejudice but a lot of the time it is professional associations saying, "We don't recognise your qualifications". So why don't you drive a taxi cab and do them all again. The Government has to do better than just bringing in people that they think are qualified and then have professional associations say, "Terribly sorry, you are not."
JENNY BROCKIE: What can you do then, what can the Government do if the professional associations say that? What are the options left open to you Chris Evans?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: That is why we have changed the system. I don't think there is much recognition that we have changed the system. A lot greater percentage of people coming in the country are employer sponsored. They are people with jobs. They do have the qualifications the employers need because they have interviewed them, they have employed them and they have sponsored them. More than 50% now coming in under the skilled migration are already 457 visa holders. People in the country with a job who are then applying for migration, people are not lining up in London at the strand any more, they are coming in as 457 workers proving that they are good workers, liking the lifestyle and then applying to stay. It is a much better system and increasingly it is driven by employers because people are coming to real jobs.
JENNY BROCKIE: Insight is talking about the migrant boom with the government saying we will need an extra 2.5 million skilled positions in the next four years. Now, Ram, I wanted to talk to you because you are an engineer, you came here from Nepal a year ago. Where did you want to go?
RAM UPADHYAYA: I had like - I thought of going to Adelaide. I started there like because I had many friends over there. But I struggled three-and-a-half months over there without any job.
JENNY BROCKIE: Alright, let's have a look at where you ended up.
RAM UPADHYAYA: Yeah.
RAM UPADHYAYA’S STORY:
RAM UPADHYAYA: I come to Australia for the sake of a good career, a good life. My wife initiated our way to Australia. She wanted to explore the world and she said we should try, we should give it a try and I didn't want to disappoint here and I said, "Let's try".
Ram, wouldn't find work in Adelaide but he picked up an engineering job in Nhill, population 2000.
RAM UPADHYAYA: This contract, which will be around 6.5 million.
DEAN MILLER, HINDMARSH SHIRE COUNCIL: That is huge, isn't it?
RAM UPADHYAYA: Yeah. It is.
DEAN MILLER: The type of work that Ram does requires road design skills and of course not everyone has that. I am most impressed with Ram and it is perfect timing because of just the size of the work load we have in front of us here at the shire as a result of the recent flood damage, we are looking for people with skills that Ram has.
RAM UPADHYAYA: Let's hope it doesn't rain in summer.
My wife has gone back to Nepal after she had a baby in January. It will be a hard time for her to stay here like knowing nobody in the new place with a new child. I chat with my wife and the baby on Skype. I do it around one to two hours a day. It is really hard to manage but I am keeping it up every day. Yeah, I miss my daughter every day.
It could be a lonely existence for a Nepalese engineer in a small country town but he has been befriended by some locals.
GERALDINE: He looks smart looking!!
RAM UPADHYAYA: I visit Geraldine and Elisabeth almost every fortnight, it is 70km drive from the place where I live. When my baby was born in January they were very helpful to me.
GERALDINE: Did you have scones in Nepal?
RAM UPADHYAYA: What is a scone? No. I believe they are like my mum in a sense they used to give us moral support when we didn't have a family. They were like family to us.
GERALDINE: See you later.
DEAN MILLER: We are very happy that he has chosen to come to Nhill and I hope he stays for a long time and we will be doing whatever we can to encourage him to stay here.
JENNY BROCKIE: Ram, you know what a scone is now? You scoffed it! Your wife and child are in Kathmandu. How does she feel about you having a job in a little country town - obviously not too happy if she is in Kathmandu.
RAM UPADHYAYA: She is like a city girl. I am a country guy. I don't mind going anywhere, but she would be happy staying in Nhill if she gets a job over there.
JENNY BROCKIE: If she could get a job?
RAM UPADHYAYA: Yes, she is also a civil engineer, we studied to, worked together in Nepal and she has the similar experience.
JENNY BROCKIE: But she can't get a job there at the moment?
RAM UPADHYAYA: She can, after she came to Australia she was pregnant and she did not apply for any job.
JENNY BROCKIE: So she just doesn't want to be there on her own while you are at work, is that the issue?
RAM UPADHYAYA: Yes, I guess her thinking was she would like to either study or work anywhere in Australia.
JENNY BROCKIE: In a city, though?
RAM UPADHYAYA: If she gets a job there it - I think it won't matter.
JENNY BROCKIE: Where do you want to end up, though, Ram?
RAM UPADHYAYA: Um...
JENNY BROCKIE: Would you like to end up in one of the big cities in Adelaide
RAM UPADHYAYA: I'm not sure, like - I was thinking of going to, settling in Adelaide because I know lots of people over there. I have my own circle. But, like, at this stage my life is there where my job is.
JENNY BROCKIE: And you like your job?
RAM UPADHYAYA: Yeah.
JENNY BROCKIE: Bob Birrell, I know that you are concerned about the how the skilled migration program is panning out in terms of temporary visas and people moving can you explain what your concerns are?
BOB BIRRELL: Yes, what is happening with the temporary visa program, that is the 457 program, is that we are now attracting large numbers of these temporary migrants whose really primarily concerned about gaining permanent residence. To gain that they need to be sponsored by their employer so in effect, they have become hostages to their employer's whims. In other words, they have to do what is necessary to get sponsorship after a couple of years working in Australia.
This create as situation where they don't have the same bargaining power as do domestic workers and it is one reason why employers are prepared to go to the trouble of bringing temporary workers because of these visa circumstances, and what I am really worried about in the future is when we have a surge in the 457 visa program for the start-up phase of the mineral boom, is that a large proportion of those temporary residents will wish to stay in Australia and at the moment they will be able to do it under highly concessional circumstances. We require only minimal rudimentary English for 457 visa holders and I am afraid we are going to import into the permanent resident workforce the deficiencies of the current 457 visa program.
JENNY BROCKIE: Chris Evans, a response?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: I regard it as alarmist and inaccurate. Bob and I have disagreed for a long time on that. 7,000 - 457 workers, 70% are professionals, geologists, Doctors, nurses. These sort of extreme alarmist views are very narrow, I think. We have had some exploitation of the 457 scheme which I when I was the minister of immigration, worked very hard to try to clean up, the unions have been very active. It is a lot better than it was.
They get paid Australian wages and conditions and if they want to stay what is wrong with that? What’s wrong with that? We are a migrant nation, we encourage skilled workers. If they have a job, they are happy here and the employer is happy with them they make a damn good migrant as far as I'm concerned.
BOB BIRRELL: The minister is correct, the majority of 457 visa holders at the moment are professionals. My concern and the Minister has acted - or the Government has acted to tighten up the 457 visa program, particularly with pay rate, I will acknowledge that it is impressive reforms. My concern is for the future that the Government has set in place enterprise migration agreements for the resources boom which will permit tens of thousands of 457 visa holders to come to Australia on concessional terms over the next few years. It is the aftermath of that that I am talking about.
JENNY BROCKIE: Rupert, you wanted to say something!
RUPERT MERRICK: I just wanted to go back to the whole term "hostage". The reasons these migrates are coming over here and the employers going overseas to source them is because their skills are in high demand. If anyone feels like they are in a hostage situation they can go to other employers who can transfer their visa across.
JENNY BROCKIE: Natalia, what did you want to say?
NATALIA GARCIA: Why will we bring in more people when there are already engineers craving for a job alright? They are already here. We only need a chance to work. We are not getting that chance.
JENNY BROCKIE: A lady up the back, you want to say something?
NURSE: I am a nurse and I come from the Philippines. I came here under a 457 visa. I am just saying that it is really hard to come in Australia to pay for a three-month course and pay for a skills assessment thing. So there is a lot of nurses, overseas especially in if Philippines, we have at least 100,000 nurses who are unemployed and we are just here to get job opportunities, to get salaries, to migrate. Yeah.
JENNY BROCKIE: OK, we are going to have to start wrapping this up. The critics that are here, what would you like to see, Ross Gittins, what would you like to see the Government doing that it isn't doing at the moment?
ROSS GITTINS: Trying a lot harder to solve the skills shortage problem without just opening the gates for mass migration. Because, I mean, we are always being told about the benefits of skilled migration. We are not being told about the costs. The reason why the public reacted so badly to the talk of a Big Australia is because a lot of people in the outer parts of our capital cities are bearing the costs. Rising house prices. Difficulties with commuting and so on, and none of those problems get addressed. We just say immigration is a good thing. Growing population is a good thing, let's do it.
JENNY BROCKIE: So you are just saying we haven't plan for it and we are still not planning for it?
ROSS GITTINS: Yes, and I think we ought to ease up's up on that until we solve system of the problems that go with rapid population growth.
BERNARD SALT: I think that is that was the essence of the Big Australia debate in the late 2009, 2010, this big city congestion. Rather than saying there is too much congestion in the western suburbs of Sydney, therefore we need to close down migration to the Australian continent, my argument is can we achieve both ends? Let's look at ways we can channel or direct migration. Maintain 180,000 migrants into the country per year which delivers Big Australia but channel a portion of those migrations out of the captain cities into the regions. This is my argument of what we did in the 40s with the Snowy Mountain Scheme, why can't we channel migrants into the regions in the 2010s and achieve both ends?
ROSS GITTINS: Because it is a free country and you can’t make rules that say if you don't stay where we put you I will kick you out.
BERNARD SALT: I disagree, this is our country and we want you to come to Australia but here is the deal. For the first three years we want you to go to actually where we need the label. We did that in the 1940s and 50s surely.
JENNY BROCKIE: Chris Evans I wanted to give you the final point here. You are fast tracking a lot of these programs, you have announced the fast tracking - is there a danger with the kind of thing that we have talked about tonight that the planning isn't in place to deal with that fast tracking?
SENATOR CHRIS EVANS: A lot of what has been talked about tonight is already happening. New South Wales’s share of immigration has dropped dramatically. Increasingly people are going to Queensland and WA - why? They go to get jobs. People come here to make a success of it. They want work, so they will go where the jobs are. What we have done is change the system from being a supply driven system to a demand-driven system, strongly linked with employment, strongly linked it with employer sponsorship with the 457s and what you seeing now is the migration program delivering work as we need and they are starting to move and settle in the places were we need them. If you go around Perth there is a lot of Irish accents. The Irish economy has tanked and we are getting trades people and professionals going to Perth. Why? Because there are jobs there, they are not going to New South Wales or Victoria because there is no work there.
JENNY BROCKIE: We are going to have to wind up but we are going to keep talking about this online and some of our guests will be online because there is a lot more to talk about. You can keep talking to our guests Ross Gittins and Bob Birrell and Jared on our live chat. If you are on the eastern states just jump on the website and join our Facebook page to keep talking about this and other topics throughout the week. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
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