sign away your life-desperate for a job??

byhookorbycrook

"We currently have a young, talented and dedicated team in our school. We are looking for highly dedicated, committed and energetic staff who are willing to give additional time and talents to complement our team. We are particularly interested in teachers who have talents in IT and Science. Staff are involved in providing afterschool activities and also ran a Summer Camp this year. There is a strong emphasis on Irish throughout our school. As an Educate Together N.S., there are many events throughout the year that involve families. These often take place afterschool, evening events or occasionally for events such as an Open Day at the weekend. Staff are expected to support and attend these events.
Staff will meet in the school a week prior to opening on the 29th August to set up classes with furniture etc and also to plan and meet with all staff. We have a balance of male and female teaching staff.
*Please note we are also advertising for an S.N.A. Qualified teachers are also more than welcome to apply for this position*"

So, if you want a job, you have to give up evenings, weekends and your summer hols. I am appalled at the above ad, talk about taking advantage of people desperate for a job.

gaeilgegrinds1

I am going to get shot for saying this. I do not agree with the ad at all BUT I give a few Saturdays a year, lots of after school time between sport and helping kids with work they can't do and also went in a few times this Summer to the school and spend an hour most days working on powerpoints for next year. And...I'm not alone in that, most teachers I know do far more than they are paid for. I never saw it written or acknowledged before though!

theg81der

I don`t really understand the problem . Gravy train is over about time some people caught up!

Mr. Presentable

Appalling that teachers should be expected to do anything comparable with what any other worker has to do. :rolleyes:

squod

Jesus, spend loads of weekends in work in my last salaried job. Would jump at the chance of getting a look in at a pensionable job. Would be like winning the lotto for me.

Just don't get your point of view on this one OP.

byhookorbycrook

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

...........
So, if you want a job, you have to give up evenings, weekends and your summer hols. I am appalled at the above ad, talk about taking advantage of people desperate for a job.

Schools are more aware than most folk of the amount of utter wasters who are qualified to teach, at least the add will discourage such folk from applying. Pity the wasters can't be fecked out of their cushy teaching jobs at the moment though.

byhookorbycrook

I do lots out of school hours, most of our staff do between training hurling, football, camogie,basketball, taking children on trips overnight, concerts, trad music sessions,bagpacking, fundraising and so on. But it is MY choice, not forced as a condition of employment.

Qualified teachers would be better doing the WPP than taking a job as an SNA because at least they'd get a chance to do their dip.

dambarude

Principals can obviously say what they like in ads since they know people would bite their arm off for work.

I agree with byhookorbycrook. It seems downright cheeky to me to state all of that in the ad. It's one thing doing it once you're established in the school (most teachers would, to some degree at least), but stipulating it in the ad seems to take it to a whole new level.

Would I be right in saying that part of the 'together' ethos of Educate Together schools is behind some of what is stated?

Delphi91

Suppose the ad wasn't as detailed as it is and you got the job, then were told that you were expected to attend events on the weekend, etc? Wouldn't you be a bit pissed off that you didn't know this in advance?

I don't see a problem with letting prospective applicants know what is going to be expected of them.

dambarude

Delphi91 wrote: »

Suppose the ad wasn't as detailed as it is and you got the job, then were told that you were expected to attend events on the weekend, etc? Wouldn't you be a bit pissed off that you didn't know this in advance?

I don't see a problem with letting prospective applicants know what is going to be expected of them.

I agree with you to some extent, but I just think the way it's phrased in the ad sounds very brazen.

All schools expect teachers to do more than show up at 9 and disappear instantly at 3. And yes, this schools probably expects more than others, but did they need to make such a BIG point of how great they are in the ad? To me what they've said is just about within what I'd actually do myself in a school. But because they've made such a fuss about saying it, it really sounds like they'd like they could ask you to do anything or get a 'you're not a team player' card. Now I've probably read into that a bit too much, it's just the impression I get.

A simple 'The successful applicant will be expected to facilitate school events outside school hours' would have done. More could have been mentioned at the interview.

looksee

I don't see the problem, they are telling it as it is, if you don't want the job don't apply for it. Just because you are qualified as a teacher does not mean you are entitled to every job that is out there. If the school has special requirements its better to be up front about it.

You could have a qualification as an accountant, and find ads that specified that you would be, say, travelling all over Europe. People like Graphic Designers can find themselves working late into the night to get a job out. My son recently spent a 3night weekend working around 20 hours a day to get a new IT installation done.

byhookorbycrook

If you get the job, it's up to you what you do or don't outside of work hours unless it is contracted.

Rosita

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

"We currently have a young, talented and dedicated team in our school. We are looking for highly dedicated, committed and energetic staff who are willing to give additional time and talents to complement our team. We are particularly interested in teachers who have talents in IT and Science. Staff are involved in providing afterschool activities and also ran a Summer Camp this year. There is a strong emphasis on Irish throughout our school. As an Educate Together N.S., there are many events throughout the year that involve families. These often take place afterschool, evening events or occasionally for events such as an Open Day at the weekend. Staff are expected to support and attend these events.
Staff will meet in the school a week prior to opening on the 29th August to set up classes with furniture etc and also to plan and meet with all staff. We have a balance of male and female teaching staff.
*Please note we are also advertising for an S.N.A. Qualified teachers are also more than welcome to apply for this position*"

So, if you want a job, you have to give up evenings, weekends and your summer hols. I am appalled at the above ad, talk about taking advantage of people desperate for a job.

In fairness, there´s nothing here that doesn´t routinely happen in the average school anyway, but playing the "in-your-face-welome-to-the-real-world-suckers" card risks the enormous goodwill that schools utterly rely on which is a terrible pity. It also seems a bit over zealous to put the date of planning meetings etc. when they go back to school in the advert. I imagine the average candidate for the job would be assuming this would be happening. At the risk of starting World War 3 I have noticed in my experience of Educate Together that they tend to try a bit too hard in appearing overtly get-up-and-go e.g. making a virtue of what is routine in other schools -maybe this is more of it.

TheDriver

At least the communion, confirmation and lots of various Masses we all attend for school won't need to be included in Educate Together!

sue97

This is an SNA job, not a teaching job so salary starts at 20K. I think its a lot to ask for that salary to be honest.

looksee

No, they are also advertising for an SNA and qualified teachers are eligible to apply.

sue97

Stand corrected.

E.T.

looksee wrote: »

I don't see the problem, they are telling it as it is, if you don't want the job don't apply for it. Just because you are qualified as a teacher does not mean you are entitled to every job that is out there. If the school has special requirements its better to be up front about it.

You could have a qualification as an accountant, and find ads that specified that you would be, say, travelling all over Europe. People like Graphic Designers can find themselves working late into the night to get a job out. My son recently spent a 3night weekend working around 20 hours a day to get a new IT installation done.

Any teacher who does their job properly has to do plenty of work outside school hours, including weekends and holidays. What's mentioned in this job ad is attending activities at weekends and during the holidays that don't have anything to do with teaching.

If you're comparing to your son's job, I'd say that this is the equivalent of him getting all his work done then being told that he's expected to come in on his day off and help entertain clients and their families. It's not a necessary part of the job.

Rosita

looksee wrote: »

1) You could have a qualification as an accountant, and find ads that specified that you would be, say, travelling all over Europe.

2) People like Graphic Designers can find themselves working late into the night to get a job out. My son recently spent a 3night weekend working around 20 hours a day to get a new IT installation done.

1) This is not comparable as it seems to relate to a specific type of job where unusual or exceptional circumstances would be expected to be specified. There is nothing in the teaching job description that would be exceptional for any teacher (I am assuming that the potentially vague words like ´many´and ´often´ used in the advert would mean much the same as the mean for any teacher). The wonder is why all this ´extra´work is being mentioned at all and makes you wonder at the kind of attitude behind the advert.

2) This is a case where people are doing piecework and again is not comparable. If you want a teaching comparison you could look at school trips which might over-run school hours or even take up a week of school holidays. In those cases people do the job end of.

Most graphic designers )and accountants) would work routine 9-5 type hours as they are contracted to do. I have been involved with graphic designers doing overnights - and I mean literally overnight - but it was a case of them doing nixers or trying to do too much or not having made the progress they had originally indicated. It was never in any of those situations seen as routine or anything other than utterly exceptional. So let´s not try to depict the routine as exceptional as the teaching advert is trying to do, or the exceptional as routine as you are trying to do when citing other jobs.

RealJohn

I can only speak from my own experience as a secondary school teacher but I think it's fair to say that most teachers do that sort of work anyway. The school in question obviously just wants to ensure that all staff take part which isn't unreasonable in my opinion. I do a lot of that sort of thing voluntarily anyway but I know several teachers in the school don't and it doesn't go un-noticed by staff or by students, especially senior students. It creates a bad impression of a teacher if they rarely or never attend things they aren't specifically part of their job and this then reflects on the school as a whole even when most of the staff work hard at that sort of thing.

As has been said several times in this thread already, we teachers have had it fairly easy in the last few years and it's time we all pulled our weight with the rest of the country. We're still well paid and a large number of us have very secure employment compared to the private sector. Looking for things to complain about isn't going to get us any sympathy. Let's stick to complaining about things that are actually worth complaining about.

E.T.

RealJohn wrote: »

It creates a bad impression of a teacher if they rarely or never attend things they aren't specifically part of their job

I have to say I couldn't disagree with you more. I work extremely hard at my job, I often stay a few hours late and almost always take extra work home with me. I do courses every year relating to different needs (not just EPV courses). I do my absolute best to make individual plans and teach as many different levels as possible (split class, primary school). I go the extra mile in meeting parents and doing my best to give each child the best education I can. So if I don't turn up for the local Corpus Christi procession or sports event, does this negate all the work I do?

Why on earth would not turning up for non-education related events create a bad impression? If people want to think this way, then it's their belief, not mine. Most of the extra events at primary level are religion based and with the amount of people who don't believe or attend mass, why on earth should teachers be expected to?

gaeilgebeo

RealJohn wrote: »

I can only speak from my own experience as a secondary school teacher but I think it's fair to say that most teachers do that sort of work anyway. The school in question obviously just wants to ensure that all staff take part which isn't unreasonable in my opinion. I do a lot of that sort of thing voluntarily anyway but I know several teachers in the school don't and it doesn't go un-noticed by staff or by students, especially senior students. It creates a bad impression of a teacher if they rarely or never attend things they aren't specifically part of their job and this then reflects on the school as a whole even when most of the staff work hard at that sort of thing.

As has been said several times in this thread already, we teachers have had it fairly easy in the last few years and it's time we all pulled our weight with the rest of the country. We're still well paid and a large number of us have very secure employment compared to the private sector. Looking for things to complain about isn't going to get us any sympathy. Let's stick to complaining about things that are actually worth complaining about.

Speak for yourself! I haven't "had it easy" for the past few years. I have always pulled my weight and did the extras! I've been in for every open evening/presentation/awards nights etc...
I've often stayed back after school to give extra classes.
As for the several teachers who don't stay back, as you say, there are some in my school who are the same.
However, they have young families, are caring for elderly parents, have all sorts of family commitments.
When I am in the same situation and have children, I won't be able to commit the same time that I have been able to in my early career and I will make no apologies for it.

Tomtata

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

"We currently have a young, talented and dedicated team in our school. We are looking for highly dedicated, committed and energetic staff who are willing to give additional time and talents to complement our team. We are particularly interested in teachers who have talents in IT and Science. Staff are involved in providing afterschool activities and also ran a Summer Camp this year. There is a strong emphasis on Irish throughout our school. As an Educate Together N.S., there are many events throughout the year that involve families. These often take place afterschool, evening events or occasionally for events such as an Open Day at the weekend. Staff are expected to support and attend these events.
Staff will meet in the school a week prior to opening on the 29th August to set up classes with furniture etc and also to plan and meet with all staff. We have a balance of male and female teaching staff.
*Please note we are also advertising for an S.N.A. Qualified teachers are also more than welcome to apply for this position*"

So, if you want a job, you have to give up evenings, weekends and your summer hols. I am appalled at the above ad, talk about taking advantage of people desperate for a job.

OP - From personal experience the evenings are maybe 5 or 6 per school term, Weekends very rare I had 1 last year.
Summer hols - there was a summer camp that lasted 5 days.

All of which benefited the kids and parents immensely.

What did you expect? Work 9am till 1pm for €30,000 per year wake up FFS.

E.T.

Tomtata wrote: »

What did you expect? Work 9am till 1pm for €30,000 per year wake up FFS.

Who works 9am til 1pm? I'm confused? I've never heard of any school closing daily at 1 pm.

gaeilgebeo

Tomtata wrote: »

OP - From personal experience the evenings are maybe 5 or 6 per school term, Weekends very rare I had 1 last year.
Summer hols - there was a summer camp that lasted 5 days.

All of which benefited the kids and parents immensely.

What did you expect? Work 9am till 1pm for €30,000 per year wake up FFS.

Where are these schools that work from 9-1?

RealJohn

E.T. wrote: »

I have to say I couldn't disagree with you more. I work extremely hard at my job, I often stay a few hours late and almost always take extra work home with me. I do courses every year relating to different needs (not just EPV courses). I do my absolute best to make individual plans and teach as many different levels as possible (split class, primary school). I go the extra mile in meeting parents and doing my best to give each child the best education I can. So if I don't turn up for the local Corpus Christi procession or sports event, does this negate all the work I do?

I didn't say it did. I said it gives a bad impression and it does. Students and parents don't see all that extra work you do. They don't know about the courses you do and I doubt you "go the extra mile" to meet the parents of every kid you teach (nor should you have to). I haven't said anywhere that you're not a very good teacher. I'm just saying that the students and parents don't see what you do behind the scenes and only seeing you in school gives the impression that you're just going through the motions, no matter how undeserving of that image you are.

E.T. wrote: »

Why on earth would not turning up for non-education related events create a bad impression? If people want to think this way, then it's their belief, not mine.

See above.

E.T. wrote: »

Most of the extra events at primary level are religion based and with the amount of people who don't believe or attend mass, why on earth should teachers be expected to?

Two comments on religion? It seems like you have a seperate axe to grind here. I don't think this is really the thread for it.

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Speak for yourself! I haven't "had it easy" for the past few years. I have always pulled my weight and did the extras! I've been in for every open evening/presentation/awards nights etc...
I've often stayed back after school to give extra classes.

So have I. It's not exactly a big deal. My non-teaching friends would laugh at that sort of complaint. We get paid well for what we do and we get good holidays. A little extra outside of teaching and class preparation is not a big ask.

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

As for the several teachers who don't stay back, as you say, there are some in my school who are the same.
However, they have young families, are caring for elderly parents, have all sorts of family commitments.

Again, I'm sure lots of them do have extra commitments but lots of them don't and still don't go. Even in the case of those with extra commitments, it's not as though these sort of events are sprung on you as you walk out the door. Alternative arrangements can be made (and if they genuinely can't, I can't see any school sacking a teacher who can't do it).

And on the whole 9-1 thing, I don't know if it's still the case but I was in school from 9-1 when I was in junior and senior infants. Tomtata could have been talking about this (though in fairness, we all know that there's far more involved in teaching than the time you spend in front of your students anyway). You all know the point he was making and he's not wrong (though not entirely right either).

An Bradán Feasa

RealJohn wrote: »

And on the whole 9-1 thing, I don't know if it's still the case but I was in school from 9-1 when I was in junior and senior infants. Tomtata could have been talking about this (though in fairness, we all know that there's far more involved in teaching than the time you spend in front of your students anyway). You all know the point he was making and he's not wrong (though not entirely right either).

Any infant teacher I know of does not go home at the same time as the children do. There is so much work to do in the classroom for the following day, because you can't just wing it when it comes to infants.

Rosita

RealJohn wrote: »

Let's stick to complaining about things that are actually worth complaining about.

And who decides what they are?

I think people who work hard and regularly/nearly every day do out-of-hours work are entitled to react when they get the welcome-to-the-real-world attitude from people.

RealJohn

RealJohn wrote: »

And on the whole 9-1 thing, I don't know if it's still the case but I was in school from 9-1 when I was in junior and senior infants. Tomtata could have been talking about this (though in fairness, we all know that there's far more involved in teaching than the time you spend in front of your students anyway). You all know the point he was making and he's not wrong (though not entirely right either).

An Bradán Feasa wrote: »

Any infant teacher I know of does not go home at the same time as the children do. There is so much work to do in the classroom for the following day, because you can't just wing it when it comes to infants.

I've highlighted the part of my post you've chosen to ignore. Tomtata doesn't seem to be a teacher and it's easy for non-teachers to forget this.

Rosita wrote: »

And who decides what they are?

I think people who work hard and regularly/nearly every day do out-of-hours work are entitled to react when they get the welcome-to-the-real-world attitude from people.

I think common sense decides what they are.
First of all, the extra work that's expected is mentioned in the ad. Surely this is much better than offering the job and then pointing it out, right?
It's a little extra work. It does put some extra pressure on teachers but like you said, welcome to the real world.

Rosita

RealJohn wrote: »

I've highlighted the part of my post you've chosen to ignore. Tomtata doesn't seem to be a teacher and it's easy for non-teachers to forget this.

I think common sense decides what they are.
First of all, the extra work that's expected is mentioned in the ad. Surely this is much better than offering the job and then pointing it out, right?
It's a little extra work. It does put some extra pressure on teachers but like you said, welcome to the real world.

Extra work? Extra pressure? Id love to have your job. For any teachers I know extra stuff is standard and understood.

I had a parent-teacher meeting until 6.15 one day last year and finished with my last parent at 8.30. No big deal. And the school did not have to make a song and dance about it in the job advertisment.

All that ad is trying to do is make themselves sound terribly important because they have an occasional late evening/open day or whatever.

An Bradán Feasa

RealJohn wrote: »

I've highlighted the part of my post you've chosen to ignore. Tomtata doesn't seem to be a teacher and it's easy for non-teachers to forget this.

I ignored nothing. Simply clarifying the situation for non-teachers.