Roscommon GAA Discussion Thread

yabadabado

Any of ye at the friendly with Kildare? Pathetic stuff

Syferus

Strongbow10 wrote: »

Cathal Shine is a big lad but nowhere near mobile enough to be a top inter county footballer, have heard this from some of his own clubmen even

I hope those same clubmen saw him be MotM against Kilmore last week and contributing to Clann hammering Pearses this weekend.

He's not quick but he's not a small lad so you can't expect him to be. Turned the U21 AISF for us last year and had Dublin on the ropes in the final until he ran out of gas (he was just coming back from a very serious back injury, remember) so there's obvious potential there. Probably the best ball winner we have in the middle.

Now I don't mean to say he's a better player than Finn or Mango but he's better at winning primary possession than either of them. We've been scrambling around in the middle for ages now and I think we need to look at lads like Cathal Shine as projects to develop over the course of three or four years and not writing them off because they don't arrive as the full package. No player does. I think himself, Thomas Corcoran and Ultan Harney will form the core of our midfield for the next decade, all things going well.

davegrohl48

Syferus wrote: »

If they sync up they're the best set of forwards we've had since the team of 98-04 and perhaps even since the late 80's-90's with Tony Mac and co. The one good thing is they all have plenty of years ahead of them so we can hopefully develop them further.

Cathal Cregg - A very fit, hard running, ball winning half forward, who will win breaking ball all day and show well for his backs/goalie and lay it on to his team mates. A div1 standard half forward.
Senan Kilbride - Can win his own ball, has size and strength and can score heavy from play. A div 1 standard forward.
Two real good forwards. The rest are not yet at the level of top players. If they were Roscommon wouldn't have struggled in the league. Some realism is needed in assessing where Roscommon are at. It should be about getting into Division two in the few year years and staying in it. Until that happens players will struggle with the step up in standard when meeting Div 1 teams.

Syferus

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Cathal Cregg - A very fit, hard running, ball winning half forward, who will win breaking ball all day and show well for his backs/goalie and lay it on to his team mates. A div1 standard half forward.
Senan Kilbride - Can win his own ball, has size and strength and can score heavy from play. A div 1 standard forward.
Two real good forwards. The rest are not yet at the level of top players. If they were Roscommon wouldn't have struggled in the league. Some realism is needed in assessing where Roscommon are at. It should be about getting into Division two in the few year years and staying in it. Until that happens players will struggle with the step up in standard when meeting Div 1 teams.

Where did you see me saying they were all top forwards?

Disregarding the fact your logic is faulty given we hardly ever have Senan in the league, that Donie Smith only saw his first ever starts this year and Donie Shine spent almost all of this year's league on the sidelines, of course there's lots of work to be done. But any team that has a core of players like Cregger, Senan and the two Donies have potential if we can provide them good ball and develop proper team-work and support play.

That even the older members of the forwards have a good five or more years left on the clock gives us the room to develop something worthwhile out of those raw ingredients. Don't be so coying as to tell someone else 'some realism is needed' when you misread what was said.

davegrohl48

Syferus wrote: »

Where did you see me saying they were all top forwards?

Disregarding the fact your logic is faulty given we hardly ever have Senan in the league, that Donie Smith only saw his first ever starts this year and Donie Shine spent almost all of this year's league on the sidelines, of course there's lots of work to be done. But any team that has a core of players like Cregger, Senan and the two Donies have potential if we can provide them good ball and develop proper team-work and support play.

That even the older members of the forwards have a good five or more years left on the clock gives us the room to develop something worthwhile out of those raw ingredients. Don't be so coying as to tell someone else 'some realism is needed' when you misread what was said.

I should have used quote for few posts, was more of a reply to a few posts including Gunneros who inferred current forward line could trouble Mayo backline.
Okay misinterpreted you there also. Agreed there is a core to build on. Senan Kilbride included as he is the best forward available.

walrusgumble

Syferus wrote: »

I hope those same clubmen saw him be MotM against Kilmore last week and contributing to Clann hammering Pearses this weekend.

That is club level, not Intercounty Level.

Syferus

walrusgumble wrote: »

That is club level, not Intercounty Level.

And? Club form is what gets you noticed by the county when you're not underage. You'd swear from the way you're taking that good form is a bad thing.

With Donie likely out and a big need for options that can alternate from the middle and forward line Cathal looks very much in line to feature heavily on Sunday next. He is probably the best ball winner we have - outside Senan, but it'd be madness playing him in the middle - and if we have any chance he'll be the one winning some primary possession in the middle.

Finn at the best of times just breaks the ball down and Higgins has always been a HF that successive managers have used at midfield simply because of his size. Mango is a player that can out-fox the opposition but he's not a one-man band. It's likely we'll have three options in the middle, if not four, with whoever is playing 11 being a midfielder in all but name.

Cathal has plenty of growing as a player left to do but if anyone thinks he won't have a role they're living in a dreamland where we're flooded with midfielders who can win ball.

Strongbow10

Syferus wrote: »

And? Club form is what gets you noticed by the county when you're not underage. You'd swear from the way you'e taking that good form is a bad thing.

With Donie likely out and a big need for options that can alternate from the middle and forward line Cathal looks very much in line to feature heavily on Sunday next. He is probably the best ball winner we have - outside Senan, but it'd be madness playing him in the middle - and if we have any chance he'll be the only winning primary possession in the middle.

Finn at the best of times breaks the ball down and Higgins has always been a HF that successive managers have used at midfield simply because of his size. Mango is a player that can out-fox the opposition but he's not a one-man band. It's likely we'll have three options in the middle, if not four, with whoever is playing 11 being a midfielder in all but name.

Cathal has plenty of growing as a player left to do but if anyone thinks he won't have a role they're living in a dreamland where we're flooded with midfielders who can win ball.

I don't think anyone is saying he won't have a role, folks are just saying they do not rate him.

Good club form in the Roscommon senior championship is hardly the yardstick for being competitive with the top intercounty sides.

Personally, i've seen enough of him to know i'm not at all excited about him and would not rate him as a prospect for the long term.

Syferus

A lot of the stuff about Cathal that I've heard is very much the same old stuff a lot of Clann people (and certainly not just them, but given their proximity to both players it's worth saying) were saying about Donie before he established himself. 'Sure he's too slow', 'he's not mobile enough'.

That the same is happening again with another Clann player makes me wonder what sort of unrealistic expectations people in the area place on players.

Cathal is without a shadow of a doubt a prospect and along with his clubmate Ultan Harney and Thomas Corcoran are the best prospects we've produced in the middle since the days of Seamie O'Neill over a decade ago.

He's too slow, you say? Then work on agility training and explosive speed, don't just give up on a 21-22 year old.

I think a big, physical Shine with a more all-action duo like Harney and Corcoran would have the potential to provide a solid platform in the years to come. The very worst thing we can do is take this daft, reductive and defeatist attitude that just because someone has flaws we shouldn't 'rate' them as prospects.

That's exactly how we'll find ourselves still in D3 in five years' time.

Always_Running

Strongbow10 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying he won't have a role, folks are just saying they do not rate him.

Good club form in the Roscommon senior championship is hardly the yardstick for being competitive with the top intercounty sides.

Personally, i've seen enough of him to know i'm not at all excited about him and would not rate him as a prospect for the long term.

Is it not a bit early to be writting off a lad that is just starting out at county level. Take Andy Moran for example he started his county football as defender and developed into a top forward.

Who are these folks that don't rate him, the same folks that think Donie Shine is b level forward even though he scored 0-18 in his last two Connacht finals?

Strongbow10

Syferus wrote: »

A lot of the stuff about Cathal that I've heard is very much the same old stuff a lot of Clann people (and certainly not just them, but given their proximity to both players it's worth saying) were saying about Donie before he established himself. 'Sure he's too slow', 'he's not mobile enough'.

That the same is happening again with another Clann player makes me wonder what sort of unrealistic expectations people in the area place on players.

Cathal is without a shadow of a doubt a prospect and along with his clubmate Ultan Harney and Thomas Corcoran are the best prospects we've produced in the middle since the days of Seamie O'Neill over a decade ago.

He's too slow, you say? Then work on agility training and explosive speed, don't just give up on a 21-22 year old.

I think a big, physical Shine with a more all-action duo like Harney and Corcoran would have the potential to provide a solid platform in the years to come. The very worst thing we can do is take this daft, reductive and defeatist attitude that just because someone has flaws we shouldn't 'rate' them as prospects.

That's exactly how we'll find ourselves still in D3 in five years' time.

Ultan Harney is a decent player, Thomas Corcoran is the pick of the bunch.

Its just a case of not rating the lad, I don't see much to get excited about. Donie is another story, he is not as good as those who hype him make out, and not as bad as his critics say. The truth lies somewhere in between with Donie.

Cathal however just won't cut it at Senior level, he will not make an impact to take us forward. Thats just an opinion.

You are pretty much claiming that we should be building our midfield around Cathal Shine, now I simply disagree with this. We simply have to be producing a better calibre of player.

We can persevere and celebrate mediocrity all we want, we have done it for years at Senior level.

Syferus you are the most optimistic poster in relation to anything Roscommon but I do wonder if you have any idea of whats going on outside the county. You seem to set the bar very low in terms of whats acceptable.

I'm not a clann man at all, but to dismiss what his own club men seem to say about lads they see week in week out is crazy.

I do actually cringe here sometimes the way you hype Ros GAA, do you actually watch GAA outside of the county? or do you think you are watching the creme de la creme in the Ros senior championship every week? Ros have some game players, some of the younger crew are solid lads with a different mentality to some of the losers in the 28-32 group who have been on the scene for years but won damn all.

Donie Shine is nowhere near a top class footballer, not a patch on Senan Kilbride for instance. But you seem insistent on banging the drum about how the rossie's are coming over the hill every 5 minutes. Did you happen to get a look at the Kildare game recently by the way?

In relation to Cathal Shine, I don't rate him as a prospect, you can nurture him all you want and encourage him etc... but to use an analogy, you can persevere all you want with a flat tyre on your journey home but sooner or later action will have to be taken. The less time you waste the better.

davegrohl48

Alot of players prospects are damaged by working under different managers/fitness coaches with inconsistent approaches Most taller players would often benefit from a reduced match schedule n a gain in lean muscle n leg strength Flogging a guy 6'5" in cone sprints is a waste of time without him first developing his leg strength n power Just thought it relevant as people often dismiss such players early in their career when only physically developing

nice_guy80

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Alot of players prospects are damaged by working under different managers/fitness coaches with inconsistent approaches Most taller players would often benefit from a reduced match schedule n a gain in lean muscle n leg strength Flogging a guy 6'5" in cone sprints is a waste of time without him first developing his leg strength n power Just thought it relevant as people often dismiss such players early in their career when only physically developing

something Roscommon do not have - a long term player development pathway

there is a lack of joined up thinking between the minor/U21/senior squads

also, serious lack of facilities within the county to develop the strength, power aspects of players.
county football has become so developed in that area in the last 5/6 years that we are seriously lagging behind

davegrohl48

Players need to be fully aware of how to prepare Facilities can be simple enough if individuals commit to train at suitable gym or something like kettlebells at home But you're right goes from minor to senior

nice_guy80

its an area the county board need to promote and run more courses in.

clubs should all have their own facility, they don't need to be costly - all it takes is a small space with squat rack, few olympic barbells and plates, chin up bar, med balls, few dumbbells and plyometric boxes

rossie1977

Strongbow10 wrote: »

Donie Shine is nowhere near a top class footballer, not a patch on Senan Kilbride for instance.

to be fair donie for me has shown far more at senior championship level than kilbride has, i have yet to see kilbride put in performances in the championship like shine did against sligo and mayo in the 2010-11 connacht finals

since the 2009 championship donie has scored 2-85 for roscommon in 16 games, kilbride 3-28 in 12 games

manofwisdom

Going by those stats Donie Shine has scored double the amount scores for Roscommon and he's around four years younger as well. To have scored what he has on average team when all others around him have struggled for scores is nothing less than remarkable.

Senan kilbride has more pace and skill than Donie Shine however most of his best performances has come for his club St Brigids than for his county.

walrusgumble

Syferus wrote: »

And? Club form is what gets you noticed by the county when you're not underage. You'd swear from the way you're taking that good form is a bad thing.

And

competing against another club team that have won little or nothing in the past few years can hardly be compared to seasoned Intercounty Footballers.

Carlow once had a mighty club team, but the County won nothing with those same players.

Good form will be measured on what he does for the County when he gets his chance. He is already on the panel. Let us see him in a County final before gobbing on about Club form

Syferus wrote: »

With Donie likely out and a big need for options that can alternate from the middle and forward line Cathal looks very much in line to feature heavily on Sunday next.

My, Cathal must of come on an awful lot because, I thought he was pretty bad as a minor and U21 (I went to most of the games). Probably the best out of bad lot, unfortunately

Syferus wrote: »

He is probably the best ball winner we have

Oh Dear

rossie1977

walrusgumble wrote: »

My, Cathal must of come on an awful lot because, I thought he was pretty bad as a minor and U21 (I went to most of the games).

cathal shine was really good as a minor especially on that 2009 team, the goal he scored against kerry in croke park was fantastic, i again thought he played really well on the under 21 last year despite clearly not being fully fit

JR79

Senan kilbride has more pace and skill than Donie Shine however most of his best performances has come for his club St Brigids than for his county.

Would agree with Senan playing better for St Bridgets, but at county level he doesnt have the same quality ball sent into him.

Strongbow10

did Ros beat the dubs in a challenge match recently?

Syferus

Strongbow10 wrote: »

did Ros beat the dubs in a challenge match recently?

An 0-18 to -1-10 win for us on Tuesday. It was a Dublin 'development team', I wouldn't start the hype train just yet.

Still, they had lads like Paul Mannion, Bryan Cullen and Dean Rock playing so it was exactly the sort of opposition we need in the run up to Mayo. Evans has exclusively played D1 teams in challenge matches (the Brigids game aside) so he's clearly trying to get the team some experience of the pace we'll have to play at on the 16th.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

something Roscommon do not have - a long term player development pathway

there is a lack of joined up thinking between the minor/U21/senior squads

also, serious lack of facilities within the county to develop the strength, power aspects of players.
county football has become so developed in that area in the last 5/6 years that we are seriously lagging behind

We have great follow-through through all the underage grades, it's the jump to senior that has been the achilles heel. It's because that's where the bags of money start to tell on the field of play. You can mask a lot of facility deficiencies until players reach 21 because they're almost all full-time students and have the time to train and have free and easy access to college gyms, after that the responsibility falls on the county to fulfil that role and we're not meeting our obligations to the players.

Facilities are an issue but a lot of times we fail to realise how many of our panel are in Dublin for work so even a great facility in the county isn't going to solve things. I'd go as far as to say we should think about building some sort of fitness centre in Dublin, or get long-term access to one of the major college CoEs in Dublin.

Obviously that all costs money but when we can't even build something in the county - all the plans we did have, like the development in Oran, seem trapped in planning hell - you know there is almost no vision at county board level and we're simply living year-by-year.

I think the fact we still have so many of the 2006 minors involved is because we stumbled on an exceptionally tight and honest group of lads and that it has very little to do with any planning, at least not on a county board level. Most of those players have been in the county system for ten years now and they deserve more backing than they're getting for all of that dedication.

nice_guy80

Syferus wrote: »

An 0-18 to -1-10 win for us on Tuesday. It was a Dublin 'development team', I wouldn't start the hype train just yet.

Still, they had lads like Paul Mannion, Bryan Cullen and Dean Rock playing so it was exactly the sort of opposition we need in the run up to Mayo. Evans has exclusively played D1 teams in challenge matches (the Brigids game aside) so he's clearly trying to get the team some experience of the pace we'll have to play at on the 16th.



We have great follow-through through all the underage grades, it's the jump to senior that has been the achilles heel. It's because that's where the bags of money start to tell on the field of play. You can mask a lot of facility deficiencies until players reach 21 because they're almost all full-time students and have the time to train and have free and easy access to college gyms, after that the responsibility falls on the county to fulfil that role and we're not meeting our obligations to the players.

Facilities are an issue but a lot of times we fail to realise how many of our panel are in Dublin for work so even a great facility in the county isn't going to solve things. I'd go as far as to say we should think about building some sort of fitness centre in Dublin, or get long-term access to one of the major college CoEs in Dublin.

Obviously that all costs money but when we can't even build something in the county - all the plans we did have, like the development in Oran, seem trapped in planning hell - you know there is almost no vision at county board level and we're simply living year-by-year.

I think the fact we still have so many of the 2006 minors involved is because we stumbled on an exceptionally tight and honest group of lads and that it has very little to do with any planning, at least not on a county board level. Most of those players have been in the county system for ten years now and they deserve more backing than they're getting for all of that dedication.

you have to get the team together to train. gym or on the field.
plus the under 21s, minor and 16 need facilities too. as do a lot of club teams
why we didn't beg Athlone IT to use their excellent facilities for all county teams - close to Dublin via motorway.

I still maintain there is not enough work going on with the 19 - 21 group
compare the physique of the young Roscommon players compared to Donegal

rossie1977

predictions for sunday??

i think mayo by 6-10 points

if roscommon don't deal with mayo on the wings and don't come to term with their forwards harassing our defenders then its going to be a long evening

Syferus

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you have to get the team together to train. gym or on the field.
plus the under 21s, minor and 16 need facilities too. as do a lot of club teams
why we didn't beg Athlone IT to use their excellent facilities for all county teams - close to Dublin via motorway.

I still maintain there is not enough work going on with the 19 - 21 group
compare the physique of the young Roscommon players compared to Donegal

Oh, I'm not saying we don't need to up our conditioning program - some of the Dublin's lads last year in the AI final were plan scary looking - but that we get away with our failings because until you pass U21 the gap in training isn't hugely impacting our competitiveness on the field, indeed most younger intercounty players train together at college so there's a lot of commonality there, for want of a better word.

We get exposed past U21 because other counties have full-time S&C trainers and access to better facilities. They were rumours of our senior team having to train in a hotel earlier in the year and that says it all about the difference between what we have and facilities like AIT (which remains a mind-numbing missed opportunity for us) and Hawkfield in Kildare.

It's an unimaginable failure of foresight by the county board because even small clubs in the county have been able to buy land and build fine facilities in recent years. St. Croan's (a club of two half parishes) paid over 100k for the land for their new pitch before building even got underway and still got a wonderful set-up built in a timely manner through a serious fundraising effort.

Even now we don't seem to be making strides at a county level, the best we have is this super draw with ridiculously priced tickets. Even the prizes themselves seem so exorborant that the number of sales we need to make a profit is very high, which is obviously why the tickets cost 100 Euro.

nice_guy80

Syferus wrote: »

Oh, I'm not saying we don't need to up our conditioning program - some of the Dublin's lads last year in the AI final were plan scary looking - but that we get away with our failings because until you pass U21 the gap in training isn't hugely impacting our competitiveness on the field, indeed most younger intercounty players train together at college so there's a lot of commonality there, for want of a better word.

We get exposed past U21 because other counties have full-time S&C trainers and access to better facilities. They were rumours of our senior team having to train in a hotel earlier in the year and that says it all about the difference between what we have and facilities like AIT (which remains a mind-numbing missed opportunity for us) and Hawkfield in Kildare.

It's an unimaginable failure of foresight by the county board because even small clubs in the county have been able to buy land and build fine facilities in recent years. St. Croan's (a club of two half parishes) paid over 100k for the land for their new pitch before building even got underway and still got a wonderful set-up built in a timely manner through a serious fundraising effort.

Even now we don't eem to be making strides at a county level, the best we have is this super draw with ridiculously priced tickets. Even the prizes themselves seem so exorborant that the number of sales we need to make a profit is very high, which is obviously why the tickets cost 100 Euro.

selling tickets for prizes is not sustainable. people hate being hit every year for money.

Tyrone have shown the way forward - plan something big and fundraise towards it
Get the project set up as a charity so donations are tax deductable
and target the dispora abroad to part fund it

you'd need some serious business people onboard to drive it forward, but it can be done

InchicoreDude

Reading on another thread, some one mentioned that it would be difficult for anyone younger than 40 to remember Roscommon in division 1 in the league.

So I am wondering, when were Roscommon last in division 1?

Duckworth_Luas

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Reading on another thread, some one mentioned that it would be difficult for anyone younger than 40 to remember Roscommon in division 1 in the league.

So I am wondering, when were Roscommon last in division 1?

They were definitely a Division 1 side in 2001 when they were also Connacht champions.

rossie1977

InchicoreDude wrote: »

So I am wondering, when were Roscommon last in division 1?

2003 they finished third from bottom in division 1 and were relegated to division 3 because the gaa shook up the divisions (top 2 would start in division 1 etc) they finished top of division 1 in 2001 and 2002

gucci

rossie1977 wrote: »

2003 they finished third from bottom in division 1 and were relegated to division 3 because the gaa shook up the divisions (top 2 would start in division 1 etc) they finished top of division 1 in 2001 and 2002

Indeed, im not even 30 and I remember a good few healthy league runs in divison 1 around then. think it was easter 01 when we beat the dubs in Parnell park with a late goal? Twas a grand day out