Re-Introduction of the Wolf in Ireland

Crann na Beatha

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Monty Burnz

Veles wrote: »

Would conversationalists be in favour of such a move to re-introduce the wolf into certain protected areas of Ireland?

It would certainly give them something to talk about.

Crann na Beatha

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astonaidan

Did they not try something similar in Scotland but couldnt get it to work cause of the walkers right to roam which means they couldnt fence off large areas

mgwhelan

Not a chance, the closest we would get if someone with a lot of spare cash byes a few hundred acres of land and put up a wolf proof fence all around it, there will never be true wild wolf in ireland again.

magicbastarder

there are plenty of deer in ireland for the wolves to live on.

there are also plenty of sheep, and i know which i'd be bothered chasing down. so while i'd love to see it, it's highly impractical.

mgwhelan

astonaidan wrote: »

Did they not try something similar in Scotland but couldnt get it to work cause of the walkers right to roam which means they couldnt fence off large areas

Wasn't that a private land owner who did that, he had boar and elk in a fenced area and was trying for wolf as well.

jill_valentine

Would be cool in a lot of ways, but far too impractical given the size, population distribution and agricultural dependence of the country.

I'd also suggest that throwing a large predator into the mix at this stage would put a lot of other already-strained native species under a lot more pressure. I'd imagine it would actually be a fairly nightmarish proposition from a conservationist point of view with that borne in mind.

emo72

i was going to start a thread with the same title. but my intention was to alarm or wind up farmers who poison birds of prey. then i thought better of it!

however fair play to the OPer. saved me the bother. oh and i wouldnt feel too happy about herds of wolves roaming the land. funny to debate it though........

just think when farmers google "reintroduction wolves" they will come to this thread. mini heart attacks for them as the google results pop up!

Crann na Beatha

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Traonach

Are there areas in the country with enough prey?
Wicklow mountains are rotten with non-native deer. Just look at the few native woodlands that are there. They are overgrazed (minimal wood understorey) due to overgrazing pressure. The deer would be controlled properly by wolves and a proper balance would be achieved. The wolves would also control small predators like foxes and mink. Control of these species would beneifit a variety of threatened native species like woodwarbler, redstart, red grouse, curlew etc.

Is there enough habitat for wolves in Wicklow?
There is plenty of woodland (mostly non-native though:().

Would wolves be a danger to people?
No, they wouldn't. There are ever increasing numbers of wolves in Europe and they don't harm anybody. There are wolves on the outskirts of Barcelona and nobody is harmed

Would they take livestock?
A few would be taken. People could adapt to this. Just look at traditional ways of protecting livestock with the use of large breed dogs such as pyrenean mountain dogs. A non lethal method of protection:).

The problem would be persecution. They wouldn't last 5 minutes. They would either be poisoned or shot. Just look at the Raptor re-introduction, how many have been illegally killed:(.

Judgement Day

We have quite enough dangerous animals in Ireland (quite apart from unfriendly farmers + dogs, skangers etc) that you may encounter in the hitherto unspoilt parts of the country without introducing more. They would only end up being poisoned or shot by farmers anyway.

Traonach

Judgement Day wrote: »

We have quite enough dangerous animals in Ireland (quite apart from unfriendly farmers + dogs, skangers etc) that you may encounter in the hitherto unspoilt parts of the country without introducing more. They would only end up being poisoned or shot by farmers anyway.

What dangerous animals?

Monty Burnz

Traonach wrote: »

What dangerous animals?

Lions, for a start.

gooch2k9

And panthers in Donegal.

Remember a big story about one being spotted around my area, apparently a released pet from the north:p

Judgement Day

Traonach wrote: »

What dangerous animals?

Well I was thinking of diesel launderers/freedom fighters/drug importers etc.etc. not to mention unmuzzled vermin such as rottweilers. When I was a teenager I used to roam the sort of areas these creatures now favour but I'm reluctant to bring my children to such places today - even accompanied - Bray Head and the Murrough in County Wicklow being two such places where skangers and dogs roam free. Don't worry I'm not going to disrupt this thread any further - just tired after the weekend.

Tabnabs

Very simply put, we don't have sufficient space to introduce pack animals.

Here's a recent report on wolves in Scandinavia (English synopsis included)
http://www.rovdata.no/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=zvxKLTek8II%3d&tabid=3882

swifts need our help!

gooch2k9 wrote: »

And panthers in Donegal.

Remember a big story about one being spotted around my area, apparently a released pet from the north:p

Years ago I was brought to see a lion and tiger on a back garden in Omagh County Tyrone

Birdnuts

Tabnabs wrote: »

Very simply put, we don't have sufficient space to introduce pack animals.

Here's a recent report on wolves in Scandinavia (English synopsis included)
http://www.rovdata.no/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=zvxKLTek8II%3d&tabid=3882

I don't think Scandanvia is a good example - despite there apparent green image, many countries such as Sweden and Finland have a serious problem with poaching of species like Lynx and Brown Bear, plus there appears to be what can only be described as a "hillbilly" culture in some parts of rural Scandanavia which doesn't help eitheir. I think a better example would be countries like Italy(Wolves now estaiblished in certain Rome suburbs) or Turkey and other parts of Eastern Europe were stock owners rear special breeds of dogs with flocks which means livestock can be reared succesfully in bear/wolf country:)

Tabnabs

Birdnuts wrote: »

I don't think Scandanvia is a good example - despite there apparent green image, many countries such as Sweden and Finland have a serious problem with poaching of species like Lynx and Brown Bear, plus there appears to be what can only be described as a "hillbilly" culture in some parts of rural Scandanavia which doesn't help eitheir. I think a better example would be countries like Italy(Wolves now estaiblished in certain Rome suburbs) or Turkey and other parts of Eastern Europe were stock owners rear special breeds of dogs with flocks which means livestock can be reared succesfully in bear/wolf country:)

Both countries are on mainland Europe (or Asia) and many times bigger than Ireland. But do you seriously believe it an option for a Kerry or Donegal hill farmer to have to keep special breed dogs to protect their flocks? Never mind wolves in the suburbs of capital city. Pie in the sky fantasy I'm afraid.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Veles wrote: »

Would conservationists be in favour of such a move to re-introduce the wolf into certain protected areas of Ireland?

Ludicrous, absurd, laughable, and ridiculous.

kildare.17hmr

Crazy idea that would not be good for anyone, especially the wolf! They would find an area with a food source which would eventually be some farmers flock of sheep and then end up being shot and rightly so. Ireland just isn't big enough

green_dub_girl

Interesting, I carried out a feasibility study three years ago assessing a reintroduction of wolves in Killarney National Park. It could work very well, there are lots of red deer, their numbers have grown excessively. Wolves by nature avoid roads, civilisation etc.

The fear people have of them is uncalled for, in many ways there is more risk associated with hanging around with a little terrier!:eek:

Kess73

Well it would make walking through woods with steaks in your pocket a more interesting pastime.

magicbastarder

green_dub_girl wrote: »

Interesting, I carried out a feasibility study three years ago assessing a reintroduction of wolves in Killarney National Park. It could work very well, there are lots of red deer, their numbers have grown excessively. Wolves by nature avoid roads, civilisation etc.

they reintroduced wolves in yellowstone, and i believe there are about 100 in the park (which is 9000 sq km) now.
killarney is only 100 sq km. at the same population density (which is a very rough fudge, i know, there are probably multiple factors affecting population density), killarney would support a population of maybe 1 wolf.

Italia

Classic quote by a member of the uninformed, kneejerking, PC brigade.

Rottweilers have been in my family since the early 1900's (according to my granddad) right up to today. I have 2.
No one, up to & including my own kids has ever been attacked or 'molested' in any way, by these dogs. They have been subjected to all sorts of 'abuse' - pulling tails, ears, poking, teasing etc - that kids and even some adults mete out. the worst that has happened, when it got a bit much, is a small growl and he/she got up and walked away. It all depends on how the owner trained / handled the animal. Personally, I have found them to be good natured friendly animals who just happen to think they are chihuahua sized and with as much grace as an elephant.

I'm not saying that they cannot or will not hurt you. It depends on the circumstances and how the animal was trained. its a long long way from referring to it as 'vermin'.

Just as a matter of interest Labradors, mainly due to genetic disposition, are approx 37% more likely to attack a human than a Rottweiler. In the US, most attacks on humans have been perpetuated by the American Cocker Spaniel and the Labrador Retriever (source American Vet Association)

Judgement Day wrote: »

Well I was thinking of diesel launderers/freedom fighters/drug importers etc.etc. not to mention unmuzzled vermin such as rottweilers.

Monty Burnz

magicbastarder wrote: »

killarney would support a population of maybe 1 wolf.

A pack of wolf then.

Tabnabs

Italia wrote: »

Classic quote by a member of the uninformed, kneejerking, PC brigade.

<snip>

Just as a matter of interest Labradors, mainly due to genetic disposition, are approx 37% more likely to attack a human than a Rottweiler. In the US, most attacks on humans have been perpetuated by the American Cocker Spaniel and the Labrador Retriever (source American Vet Association)

Way off topic, but I can produce statistics that show the Rottweiler is the second most deadly dog in the US

http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/breeds-causing-DBRFs.pdf

67 vs 8 for the Labrador.

johngalway

emo72 wrote: »

i was going to start a thread with the same title. but my intention was to alarm or wind up farmers who poison birds of prey. then i thought better of it!

however fair play to the OPer. saved me the bother. oh and i wouldnt feel too happy about herds of wolves roaming the land. funny to debate it though........

just think when farmers google "reintroduction wolves" they will come to this thread. mini heart attacks for them as the google results pop up!

Not worth replying to seriously.

Traonach wrote: »

Would they take livestock?
A few would be taken. People could adapt to this. Just look at traditional ways of protecting livestock with the use of large breed dogs such as pyrenean mountain dogs. A non lethal method of protection:).

Ok,let's try it then. Once you agree to personally compensate for any stock losses plus the cost of dogs and the additional time required to train them. It shouldn't be an onerous burden to you as you can after all adapt.

Judgement Day wrote: »

We have quite enough dangerous animals in Ireland (quite apart from unfriendly farmers + dogs, skangers etc) that you may encounter in the hitherto unspoilt parts of the country without introducing more. They would only end up being poisoned or shot by farmers anyway.

What have you done to farmers to upset them? Most I know are happy welcoming people when treated with respect, like anyone else.Go over to the Outdoor Pursuits forum and ask the hill walkers.

Tabnabs

johngalway wrote: »

What have you done to farmers to upset them? Most I know are happy welcoming people when treated with respect, like anyone else.Go over to the Outdoor Pursuits forum and ask the hill walkers.

Probably best not, seeing as how the farmers have been credited by the officials in making the Dublin Way walk so impassible and then recently pulling out the signposts.

johngalway

Tabnabs wrote: »

Probably best not, seeing as how the farmers have been credited by the officials in making the Dublin Way walk so impassible and then recently pulling out the signposts.

I have no knowledge of that situation nor the issues behind it. It is certainly not the case in the area in which I live and work. There are awkward people in all lines of work, no exceptions and to tar an entire situation with them isn't representative of the whole situation.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

green_dub_girl wrote: »

Interesting, I carried out a feasibility study three years ago assessing a reintroduction of wolves in Killarney National Park. It could work very well, there are lots of red deer, their numbers have grown excessively. Wolves by nature avoid roads, civilisation etc.

The fear people have of them is uncalled for, in many ways there is more risk associated with hanging around with a little terrier!:eek:

Absolute hogwash. For whom was this feasibility study carried out and what criteria were used? It takes a lot more than a few Deer to make an area suitable for Wolves. Such nonsense! :mad: I'm guessing it was for an Environmental Studies student course!! :rolleyes:

As for the comparison of Wolves to Terriers - you obviously know nothing of Wolves in the wild.

Mothman

Mod note; Lots of potential to go way off topic, hence a gentle reminder to try stick to topic of thread title.

Mothman

Here are a couple of related threads from the past

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65259244
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055105550

Crann na Beatha

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ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Veles wrote: »

Why not consider enlarging Glenveagh and reintroducing a pack there?

Not nearly big enough for a pack!!!

Bullseye1

In an ideal world it would be incredible to see Wolves, Bears, Elks back in Ireland but honestly I cannot see it happening. A number of extinct birds of prey were reintroduced into areas of Ireland with large numbers shot and poisoned, I assume by landowners. Unless we create a wild reserve on a massive scale of course. There was in interesting program on Wolves being reintroduced into Yelllowstone National Park in the US.

Birdnuts

Tabnabs wrote: »

Both countries are on mainland Europe (or Asia) and many times bigger than Ireland. But do you seriously believe it an option for a Kerry or Donegal hill farmer to have to keep special breed dogs to protect their flocks? Never mind wolves in the suburbs of capital city. Pie in the sky fantasy I'm afraid.

I never said it was currently viable for this country:rolleyes: - I was merely pointing out the situation in other countries(with similiar human population densities to Ireland) that currently succesfully incorporate these species. I beleive the main problem in this country is a cultural one which stems from our history of colonization by a British outlook which was intolerant of species like wolves/bears etc. - much of it based on myths like "Little Red Riding Hood" etc. If you look at the history of wolves in Ireland you will see that the native Irish up till the 17th centuary had a far more relaxed attitude to the species - sure they killed wolves that caused problems but they didn't seek to remove the entire species like the British planters did after the Cromwellian plantations. The same thing happened after the British settled areas like most of modern day US and Canada.

cfitz

Talk of these sorts of re-introductions is the folly of idle minds in my opinion. We'd do well to focus our energies on the wildlife we currently have.

Wailin

Most of the countries mentioned above that have healthy wolf populations have one thing Ireland does not, high percentage forest cover. Ireland has literally no real forest and absolutely no wilderness to support wolves. Only 10% is forested (1% native woodland), compared to an average of 40-70% in the countries mentioned. Although it would be amazing to have large wild predators on this island, its just not feasible.

Birdnuts

Wailin wrote: »

Most of the countries mentioned above that have healthy wolf populations have one thing Ireland does not, high percentage forest cover. Ireland has literally no real forest and absolutely no wilderness to support wolves. Only 10% is forested (1% native woodland), compared to an average of 40-70% in the countries mentioned. Although it would be amazing to have large wild predators on this island, its just not feasible.

True - but we do have a deer population that continues to grow at 16% a year which is causing increasing problems for farmers and forestors a like. In any case country's like Israel, Jordan etc. have wolves and even less forest cover than us.

PS: The above should not be read as an arguement/opinion for an imminiant release of wolves in Ireland before anyone gets excited;) - just a stating of some facts:)

BargainHunter

Wild boar would be better for ireland, than wolves. Wild boar dont kill sheep. They also help the ecosystem by turning over the soil in forests helping new trees get established. They also can be hunted for food.

Beavers are also a good candidate for re-introduction, as we have lots of rivers in Ireland. There is already a successful beaver reintroduction program running in Scotland.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

BargainHunter wrote: »

Wild boar would be better for ireland, than wolves. Wild boar dont kill sheep. They also help the ecosystem by turning over the soil in forests helping new trees get established. They also can be hunted for food.

Beavers are also a good candidate for re-introduction, as we have lots of rivers in Ireland. There is already a successful beaver reintroduction program running in Scotland.

We do not have sufficient native woodland for either species. Rivers are not the required habitat for Beaver. Maybe have a look at the specifics of the re-introduction programme in Knapdale Forest, Scotland. Also, it is still only a trial project. :rolleyes:

recedite

Insufficient woodland for a few beavers?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Yes, certainly for a re-introduction programme. What do you want? 2 pairs and then cull the offspring??? It's also a matter of the right kind of woodland. :rolleyes:

recedite

The Knapdale "trial project" for beavers is the first official reintroduction to the wild in the UK. It's a forested glen similar to those in many parts of Ireland. However there are numerous colonies already established in fenced off areas, such as the very successful one on only 100 acres in Kent. There are also unofficially released wild beavers multiplying along the Tay river.

What this shows is that beavers will succeed and quickly expand their range in riverine broadleaf habitat, given half a chance.

More details on the UK beavers here.

They are also being reintroduced to Wales which is probably where our ultra conservative conservationists will source them in about 10 years time. They will by then be considered "locals" and "almost as good as native", just like our "native" Red Squirrels and Red Kites which were sourced there.

Birdnuts

recedite wrote: »

The Knapdale "trial project" for beavers is the first official reintroduction to the wild in the UK. It's a forested glen similar to those in many parts of Ireland. However there are numerous colonies already established in fenced off areas, such as the very successful one on only 100 acres in Kent. There are also unofficially released wild beavers multiplying along the Tay river.

What this shows is that beavers will succeed and quickly expand their range in riverine broadleaf habitat, given half a chance.

More details on the UK beavers here.

They are also being reintroduced to Wales which is probably where our ultra conservative conservationists will source them in about 10 years time. They will by then be considered "locals" and "almost as good as native", just like our "native" Red Squirrels and Red Kites which were sourced there.

RD - is there any evidence that beavers were ever native to Ireland?? - if not then I don't quiet see the connection with the other species you mention since these were indeed natives till the 18 centuary at least.


PS: i seem to remember reading that the European Beaver did not make it too Ireland after the last ice age - just like the Weasel,Brown Hare, Polecat and possibly Wild Cat etc.

Calochortus

Kieran Hickey is a geography lecturer in Galway but has a part time interest in the historical presence of wolves in Ireland. He has written excellent scientific papers on the subject and claims that the wolf was exterminated from Ireland during Cromwellian times. One of his articles is freely available here http://www.ucd.ie/gsi/pdf/33-2/lupus.pdf and makes great accessible reading. He has also written a book on the subject http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=1001

Personally, I also believe that Ireland is too small to reintroduce wolves as we don't have enough wilderness on the scale that you can experience in the likes of America where reintroduction programs have been highly successful in Yellowstone. However, it has not been without human conflicts and the wolves have now expanded into eastern Oregon from Wyoming and have been met with hatred and misunderstanding in some areas such as this poster I came across in a rancher style bar last year. They call the wolves Canadian as that was where they sourced the reintroduced population. A lack of education and public awareness has resulted in some members of the public spreading this ridiculous propaganda. Ireland is simply too small with too many people and frankly our money can be better spent in educating our young people about how we exterminated our native species and what we can do to protect what we have left.

Birdnuts

Calochortus wrote: »

. A lack of education and public awareness has resulted in some members of the public spreading this ridiculous propaganda.

Indeed - the hilarious thing about these people is that it was their recent ancestors who wiped out the vast buffalo, Pronghorn herds from the American West in the 19th centuary - the same herds that lived in balance with their natural predators lie wolves, bears, pumas etc. along with native Indians for tens of thousands of years before the coming of the White men.

Calochortus

Birdnuts wrote: »

Indeed - the hilarious thing about these people is that it was their recent ancestors who wiped out the vast buffalo, Pronghorn herds from the American West in the 19th centuary - the same herds that lived in balance with their natural predators lie wolves, bears, pumas etc. along with native Indians for tens of thousands of years before the coming of the White men.

We're just as bad only on a smaller scale...

recedite

Birdnuts wrote: »

RD - is there any evidence that beavers were ever native to Ireland?? - if not then I don't quiet see the connection with the other species you mention since these were indeed natives till the 18 centuary at least.


PS: i seem to remember reading that the European Beaver did not make it too Ireland after the last ice age - just like the Weasel,Brown Hare, Polecat and possibly Wild Cat etc.

According to this book "Beaver fossils are commonly found in the peat bogs of Ireland and England together with the famous Irish elk, Megaceros."

BTW parts of the southwest escaped the ice sheet, therefore the cut off point for any non arctic wildlife getting here without human assistance was probably the separation of the land bridge from UK/Continent. For example of the two species of shrew here, the white toothed arrived recently, but the DNA of the native pygmy shrew shows that it hitched a ride with settlers from the Basque country. Normans brought rabbits for meat, initially they tried to confine the rabbits to warrens where they could be caught. The first recorded warren was on Lambay Island off Dublin, which curiously enough has been home to Irelands first colony of wallabies for several decades.