Best car to tow a horse box

my friend

Best car to tow a horse box?

a rental

mullingar

my friend wrote: »

Best car to tow a horse box?

a rental

Funny you should say that, when I did my test I couldn't use my own car as it's an auto and the licence would be restricted to auto and I couldn't find any car to rent with a towbar. Had to borrow the manual Laguna as it was hard to find a car with a towbar with working light socket, plated to min 1500kg and have valid tax!

brownswiss

mullingar wrote: »

AFAIK, As long as you declare to the insurance company that you have a towbar, you are insured to tow a trailer not exceeding the maximum towing capacity of the car as long as your licence covers it. (the trailer should then be covered third party only).

You can find the maximum trailer weight capacity of a car on the cars weight plate - usually found on the B pillar or under bonnet. Just subtract the two top weights (max train weight / dgvw)

If the cars maximum capacity is 1500kg, you are covered to tow a 505 (unladen 900kg) with a 500kg horse, even if the trailer has a 3500kg MAM (maximum authorised mass) or in old money the DGVW (design gross vehicle weight).

I did my BE test last year with a 505 laden with the required 600kg in concrete blocks in a diesel Laguna rated to 1500kg. I was on the limit and the Tester had no problem.

....

That is interesting especially as your test was so recent

mullingar

brownswiss wrote: »

.

Mullingar can you tell me in relation to Insurance ( My licence is not an issue ) firstly with an empty 505 horse box and then either with one or two horses. My understanding from a meeting I was at is that the normal family saloon is not insured to tow this box because of its maximum weight capacity
Thanks in advance & a link would be great

Just to add, this would definitely be true for a B licence.

brownswiss

mullingar wrote: »

Just to add, this would definitely be true for a B licence.

I am not asking about licence. Just asking in relation to insurance of a car that is pulling a 505 box. Assume the person has the full & proper licence to tow it does the MAM of the 505 cause the insurance to be void if the vehicle towing is only a normal family car?

Noccy_Mondy

No car should be pulling a horse box. Full stop. That's what jeeps/suv's are for. The only trailers a car should be towing are them small single axle trailers. A big horse box is far too much pressure for a car. Seen a few big horse boxes being pulled by passats before, sure the back of the car was sitting well over the rear tyres with the weight. Maybe that's just me, but I'd never have any trailer on my cars.

CiniO

brownswiss wrote: »

I am not asking about licence. Just asking in relation to insurance of a car that is pulling a 505 box. Assume the person has the full & proper licence to tow it does the MAM of the 505 cause the insurance to be void if the vehicle towing is only a normal family car?

If car is designed to tow the weight of the trailer, then there can't be any insurance implications.
As I said before - every car has a limit of trailer weight set by manufacturer, and it can be found on vehicle plate.
Most bigger saloon cars (like mondeo, passat, etc) are rated at least 1500kg or more, sometimes in excess of 2000kg, which might be enough to tow a horsebox with 2 horses.

CiniO

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

No car should be pulling a horse box. Full stop. That's what jeeps/suv's are for.

Says who?
If car manufacturers say that car can tow 2 tonnes, then why shouldn't it.

brownswiss

CiniO wrote: »

If car is designed to tow the weight of the trailer, then there can't be any insurance implications.
As I said before - every car has a limit of trailer weight set by manufacturer, and it can be found on vehicle plate.
Most bigger saloon cars (like mondeo, passat, etc) are rated at least 1500kg or more, sometimes in excess of 2000kg, which might be enough to tow a horsebox with 2 horses.

I was just on another forum and it stated that it is what is stamped on your horse box that counts so even if the 505 is empty you can not tow with those cars because the MAM or MGW is 2340kgs.

CiniO

brownswiss wrote: »

I was just on another forum and it stated that it is what is stamped on your horse box that counts so even if the 505 is empty you can not tow with those cars because the MAM or MGW is 2340kgs.

Well if your car has towing capacity of 2350kg then you can anyway.

I remember not long time ago someone posting a link stating, that in Ireland it was actual weight of the trailer that matters, not the D.G.V.W.
I unfortunately can not find reliable source at the moment.
Maybe I'll have more luck finding one tomorrow.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Well if your car has towing capacity of 2350kg then you can anyway.

I remember not long time ago someone posting a link stating, that in Ireland it was actual weight of the trailer that matters, not the D.G.V.W.
I unfortunately can not find reliable source at the moment.
Maybe I'll have more luck finding one tomorrow.

I was on the RSA site earlier and it had a good explanation of the towing laws, just took a few reads to make sense. But yes the MAN of the trailer doesn't matter if it's higher than the car is allowed once you stay within the cars specs your OK.

Del2005

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

No car should be pulling a horse box. Full stop. That's what jeeps/suv's are for. The only trailers a car should be towing are them small single axle trailers. A big horse box is far too much pressure for a car. Seen a few big horse boxes being pulled by passats before, sure the back of the car was sitting well over the rear tyres with the weight. Maybe that's just me, but I'd never have any trailer on my cars.

They are most likely overloaded forgetting that 2 people and the ancillary gear for horse riding weight several hundred kilo

old_aussie

You'll need to have brakes fitted as below


http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/About-your-Vehicle/Example-of-non-Dup/Trailers-/Technical-Trailer-Requirements-/

For O1 Trailers
If you have an ordinary Category B licence, you may:

• Tow a trailer of up to 0.75 tonnes DGVW, with a vehicle with a DGVW not exceeding 3.5 tonnes and seating for up to 8 passengers (apart from the driver).
• Tow a trailer over 0.75 tonnes DGVW, with a vehicle with a DGVW not exceeding 3.5 tonnes provided the combination weight does not exceed 3.5 tonnes.

O1 trailers are not obliged to have brakes fitted unless they have a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW), i.e. the weight of the trailer plus the load being carried, which is more than half the GVW of the towing vehicle to which they are attached.
If the trailer’s GVW is more than half the GVW of the towing vehicle, then the trailer must be fitted with a service brake, a parking brake and a device capable of automatically stopping the trailer if it becomes detached while in motion—i.e., a breakaway cable. As an alternative to a breakaway cable, a secondary coupling may be fitted.

mullingar

brownswiss wrote: »

I was just on another forum and it stated that it is what is stamped on your horse box that counts so even if the 505 is empty you can not tow with those cars because the MAM or MGW is 2340kgs.

Link?

That statement is 100% incorrect

Noccy_Mondy

CiniO wrote:

Says who? If car manufacturers say that car can tow 2 tonnes, then why shouldn't it.

Like I said it's just me. I've had first hand experience of cars being used to tow heavy amounts (albeit within the limits) and over time it hasn't been good on the car, rear suspension issues. I've yet to see a small horse box, that a car could work with. It's work for a bigger vehicle imo.

mullingar

And just to add,

Does your logic extend to builders trailers with a mam of 3500kg being towed with some full sized jeeps limited to 2500/ 3000kg?

There are only a few Jeeps that can legally tow a full 3500kg (eg bigger land rovers) a lot of others are max 3000kg such as the Mitsubishi warrior and by your logic would not be able to tow.

mullingar

Noccy_Mondy wrote: »

Like I said it's just me. I've had first hand experience of cars being used to tow heavy amounts (albeit within the limits) and over time it hasn't been good on the car, rear suspension issues. I've yet to see a small horse box, that a car could work with. It's work for a bigger vehicle imo.

Then you clearly exceeded the specified hitch nose weight of the towing car and your load was unbalanced. These are usually a maximum of 80-100 kg to avoid excess downward stress on the suspension

brownswiss

I have read quite a few posts stating that one's insurance is only valid while towing a trailer that is within the car's towing capacity and that the MAM is the weight the insurance company looks for. I can not find any insurance links to clarify. It is strange if RSA will allow a car & trailer combination that the insurance companies will not. I will contact FBD to see how they view towing by a car

CiniO

brownswiss wrote: »

I have read quite a few posts stating that one's insurance is only valid while towing a trailer that is within the car's towing capacity

I don't think anyone (except from yourself maybe ) said that.
Car insurance company covers you to tow a trailer, but in case trailer is above legal weight limits, then obviously there might be insurance implications. But it doesn't mean automatically that your policy is void - it's not. It just means that insurer might not pay you, or demand a repayment from you for claim paid for third party if you were at fault of the accident.
(but "might" is not equal to "will").

and that the MAM is the weight the insurance company looks for. I can not find any insurance links to clarify. It is strange if RSA will allow a car & trailer combination that the insurance companies will not. I will contact FBD to see how they view towing by a car

Let us know.

brownswiss

CiniO wrote: »

I don't think anyone (except from yourself maybe ) said that.
Car insurance company covers you to tow a trailer, but in case trailer is above legal weight limits, then obviously there might be insurance implications. But it doesn't mean automatically that your policy is void - it's not. It just means that insurer might not pay you, or demand a repayment from you for claim paid for third party if you were at fault of the accident.
(but "might" is not equal to "will").



Let us know.

.. To clarify. I was referring to posts on other forums.

Phoned Insurance company who in turn phoned underwriters. Insured to tow horse box with 2 horses on board. He did add that if one was pulling a big trailer with a mini digger on board it would be a very different issue

mullingar

As long as you keep within towing capacity limits. Insurance companies will look for any reason not to pay out, such as if you are overloaded. Keep within the limits to stay legal

brownswiss

Vik1 says:

Re: scary towing cars

I found the email from the BHS, below is a copy paste of the response.
Hi Vicki

What you need to do in the first instance is find out the MAM of your trailer, (Maximum Allowed Mass) this is the maximum amount your trailer is built to carry. You need to know the weight of your horse/horses against the MAM of the trailer to ascertain what capacity you have for extras, such as hay, feed, tack, water etc.

You will find the MAM of the trailer on the weight plate which is situated on or near the towing hitch, the MAM being the highest figure on the weight plate. It is recommended that the MA of the trailer should not exceed 85% of the unladen weight (kerb weight) of the towing vehicle at all times regardless of wether the trailer is being towed empty or full..

With regard to towing vehicles, if for instance, you are towing an Ifor Williams 505 2 horse trailer or similar, you will need to be towing with a large 4x4, at least 2.5lt or above to stay within the legal requirements. Things to consider when choosing a towing vehicle are power and braking capacity, cars do not usually have the braking capacity of a 4x4, could the car stop the trailer pushing you down hill? Or worse, could the car stop a trailer dragging you backwards down a hill? Also should you be stopped whilst towing and your vehicle is not suitable for the purpose, you could find your insurance invalid, and you certainly would not be allowed to move the trailer, loaded or not, without a suitable towing vehicle. Should you be stopped whilst towing empty, it will be presumed that you will be carrying horses at some stage during your journey

Hope this helps but if you have any queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.

regards

Di Parkinson
R & RS Test Administrator
Safety Department

mullingar

brownswiss wrote: »

Vik1 says:

Re: scary towing cars

I found the email from the BHS, below is a copy paste of the response.
Hi Vicki

What you need to do in the first instance is find out the MAM of your trailer, (Maximum Allowed Mass) this is the maximum amount your trailer is built to carry. You need to know the weight of your horse/horses against the MAM of the trailer to ascertain what capacity you have for extras, such as hay, feed, tack, water etc.

You will find the MAM of the trailer on the weight plate which is situated on or near the towing hitch, the MAM being the highest figure on the weight plate. It is recommended that the MA of the trailer should not exceed 85% of the unladen weight (kerb weight) of the towing vehicle at all times regardless of wether the trailer is being towed empty or full..

Note: that is only a recommendation and a recommendation has zero legal standing. Either the towing vehicle is plated to pull the attached trailer weight as specified by the manufacturer or its not.

With regard to towing vehicles, if for instance, you are towing an Ifor Williams 505 2 horse trailer or similar, you will need to be towing with a large 4x4, at least 2.5lt or above to stay within the legal requirements.

No, my point above also refers

Things to consider when choosing a towing vehicle are power and braking capacity, cars do not usually have the braking capacity of a 4x4

Car manufacturers have already done that for you when they certified the cars towing capacity

,could the car stop the trailer pushing you down hill? Or worse, could the car stop a trailer dragging you backwards down a hill? Also should you be stopped whilst towing and your vehicle is not suitable for the purpose, you could find your insurance invalid, and you certainly would not be allowed to move the trailer, loaded or not, without a suitable towing vehicle. Should you be stopped whilst towing empty, it will be presumed that you will be carrying horses at some stage during your journey

Hope this helps but if you have any queries, please do not hesitate to contact me.

regards

Di Parkinson
R & RS Test Administrator
Safety Department

btb

Been watching this on and off lately, and one thing that springs to mind with all this talk of MAM and so on.
Has anyone actually towed a box with 2 16/17hh horses in it?
You would be very lucky if they stood still for a short time. Top heavy load that can move a surprising amount in such a small space. The load would constantly be shifting, coming on and off the hitch, lovely feeling in a bend, not something you want with a car.
I am coming at this from having towed boxes for the last 16 or 17 years, and not just short journeys down the road, often up to 200 or 300 miles in a day, and very little of it motorway.
Bares no comparison to your ifor williams 8x4 twin axle builders trailer with a bit of gravel in it.
Just my tuppence worth......

brownswiss

btb wrote: »

Been watching this on and off lately, and one thing that springs to mind with all this talk of MAM and so on.
Has anyone actually towed a box with 2 16/17hh horses in it?
You would be very lucky if they stood still for a short time. Top heavy load that can move a surprising amount in such a small space. The load would constantly be shifting, coming on and off the hitch, lovely feeling in a bend, not something you want with a car.
I am coming at this from having towed boxes for the last 16 or 17 years, and not just short journeys down the road, often up to 200 or 300 miles in a day, and very little of it motorway.
Bares no comparison to your ifor williams 8x4 twin axle builders trailer with a bit of gravel in it.
Just my tuppence worth......

.. I have towed up but usually not over 16hh. I have also travelled in the horse box while the driver was not exceeding 60km and it felt like they were doing twice that. The inclination after travelling in the box is to drive very slowly. I never noticed the weight coming on and off the hitch but if the horse makes any little movement I can feel it if I am driving

brownswiss

Quote from Mullingar....Note: that is only a recommendation and a recommendation has zero legal standing. Either the towing vehicle is plated to pull the attached trailer weight as specified by the manufacturer or its not...

Quote Mullingar...Note: that is only a recommendation and a recommendation has zero legal standing. Either the towing vehicle is plated to pull the attached trailer weight as specified by the manufacturer or its not...

So Mullingar are you saying plated to pull the empty or fully loaded trailer

mullingar

brownswiss wrote: »

Quote from Mullingar....Note: that is only a recommendation and a recommendation has zero legal standing. Either the towing vehicle is plated to pull the attached trailer weight as specified by the manufacturer or its not...

Quote Mullingar...Note: that is only a recommendation and a recommendation has zero legal standing. Either the towing vehicle is plated to pull the attached trailer weight as specified by the manufacturer or its not...

So Mullingar are you saying plated to pull the empty or fully loaded trailer

I have already answered that.