The cost of school uniforms

implausible

OS119 wrote: »

it was a pretty simple question - teachers, and therefore headteachers, being overly fussed about the provenance of a pair of trousers is not logical, so why should they care?

as with any such question, if there is not a good - logical - answer, there must be a bad answer.

i do not believe that teachers, as individuals, get a kickback, but i do believe that the school as a corporate body gets a kickback, or worse, that the policy deciders get a kickback.

if you can make a logical argument as to why teachers and headteachers should wish to continue the requirement for uniforms to come from specific suppliers - whether you agree with it or not - then i will accept that brown envelopes aren't the answer, if not, then the only options are pretty limited, and not attractive.

A uniform is called a uniform because everyone wearing it should look....well....uniform. A way to guarantee this is to have crests on them, a specific colour and/or to specify a particular retailer. Schools want students to look the same for a few reasons - ease of identification, avoidance of the proverbial 'fashion show' and conformity to the rules of the school. These are the reasons. Whether you think they are logical enough reasons in the face of your belief that schools get a kickback is another matter.

embee

deemark wrote: »

A uniform is called a uniform because everyone wearing it should look....well....uniform. A way to guarantee this is to have crests on them, a specific colour and/or to specify a particular retailer. Schools want students to look the same for a few reasons - ease of identification, avoidance of the proverbial 'fashion show' and conformity to the rules of the school. These are the reasons. Whether you think they are logical enough reasons in the face of your belief that schools get a kickback is another matter.

The logic behind uniforms is fine and good, but you don't have to have a jumper with a specific crest on it to be "in uniform". The boys school in my town wear an uncrested uniform and they all look the same. They wear navy uniforms with a pale blue shirt and look just as "uniform" as the girls school. Specifying a certain retailer is not necessary to embrace the idea of uniform wearing..... it's a cop out and it puts pressure on so many parents (like myself) who are on the breadline. I am living in consistent poverty and school policies like these which are essentially forcing me to spend money I don't have is a bit hardfaced, particularly in the economic climate we find ourselves in. Parents are forced into this as none of us want our little girls to be the only one who doesn't have the "proper" uniform and perhaps get picked on as a result. It's pretty dispicable policy making by any standards.

OS119

deemark wrote: »

A uniform is called a uniform because everyone wearing it should look....well....uniform. A way to guarantee this is to have crests on them, a specific colour and/or to specify a particular retailer. Schools want students to look the same for a few reasons - ease of identification, avoidance of the proverbial 'fashion show' and conformity to the rules of the school. These are the reasons. Whether you think they are logical enough reasons in the face of your belief that schools get a kickback is another matter.

excellent arguement for a school uniform, woeful explanation as to why that uniform must be a €40 jumper, €35 trousers, and €80 blazer from messrs Grabitt and Screw and not a €3 white shirt, €4 grey trousers, and €5 Blue V-neck jumper from Tesco.

i think i'll stick with my current view - FF with education...

implausible

embee wrote: »

The logic behind uniforms is fine and good, but you don't have to have a jumper with a specific crest on it to be "in uniform".

OS119 wrote: »

excellent arguement for a school uniform, woeful explanation as to why that uniform must be a €40 jumper, €35 trousers, and €80 blazer from messrs Grabitt and Screw and not a €3 white shirt, €4 grey trousers, and €5 Blue V-neck jumper from Tesco.

i think i'll stick with my current view - FF with education...

Woah guys, if you read my other posts, you'd see I don't agree with it, I'm merely explaining the logic behind it. In some schools, that logic extends as far as specifying a particular brand/shop for those items. In my own school, the jumper is crested and that's it. The rest of it can be Pennys or Tommy Hilfiger.

OS119, I've explained the logic, but am not justifying how far some schools take that logic. If you want to continue to believe that kickbacks are involved, at least do yourself a favour and get some proof. Ask on the Teaching & Lecturing forum and you'll get responses from ordinary teachers and some in senior management.

OS119

deemark wrote: »

OS119, I've explained the logic, but am not justifying how far some schools take that logic...

if you can't justify the extent to which some schools take the concept of uniform - and particularly that it always involves parents spending more money, not less, and always to specific, local retailers - does that not raise your suspicions?

isn't it odd that not one of these 'hyper-uniformity' schools specify cheap products from mass retailers, but all specify high-end items from the local guy - the only option that allows the two neccesaries for corruption: contact and mark-up?

i find it very odd that you don't agree with the high-value, hyper-unifomity concept, accept that it doesn't meet the stated aims of 'reducing the fashion parade' (because any parent who hasn't won the lottery in the last month seeks to get around the uniform policy), and yet don't think there's something fishy going on....

implausible

This reply is probably pointless as you have an entrenched position that you will not move from unless it is proved to you otherwise. I have not done an audit of the decision-making policies of every school in the country, so cannot offer you the evidence you require. I can only speak from my experience and that of other teachers and schools that I know.

Why specifiy a brand/shop? Status, I'd imagine. Make the students wear the exact same expensive items from the same shop and everyone is 'uniform'. You can ensure that cheaper, lower quality, differently coloured items don't sneak in and make the uniform look 'shabby'. (And before anyone starts - I wear items from Dunnes and Penneys everyday and don't consider them inferior). Kilts, crested blazers and uniform jackets confer a status on a school, giving the impression that it is an academy or high class establishment. VEC schools, in my experience, don't go in for all this. They tend to be far more keenly aware of the circumstances of some of their students and more concerned about well-being than appearances, but then again, I have no figures, so that observation is of no import to you.

gcgirl

Send your kids to a Educate Together school, they have no school uniforms, I am sending 2 of mine while the eldest only has a yr left in her school, when the middle boy started 2 yrs ago I paid €25 for a jumper green round neck with a chrest, he went through 2 of them that yr then he got in to a class in another school that specialises in his disorder and had to pay €35 per jumper chrest and green line running around the v neckand also a spicific tracksuit for €40. The amount of times I walked past the wine v neck jumpers in tesco's and shed a tear, now they can just go in to school in their trackies and runners.

embee

gcgirl wrote: »

Send your kids to a Educate Together school, they have no school uniforms .

That isn't true at all. The ET school in my own town has a uniform, as do others in the county.

Morag

37 quid on a school tracksuit + 7 for polo shirts which will be worn one day a week for the what 40 weeks of 6th class. Thank the gods the secondary school is happy for the students to wear generic tracksuits.

angelfire9

A quick look on google and look what I found:
http://www.abbeybadges.ie/school_uniform_crests.php

Now I have no idea what this crowd are like but I will be asking our PA to look into it!
For a quantity of 200 crests (75mm crests) @ €1.72 each will cost the school €344 plus VAT which is €416.24
They could sell them at €2.50 each and make a profit of €0.41 per crest or €84 profit per order of 200
Its a no brainer IMHO
They could ask parents to pay in advance for each crest they want & order that amount of them
At €2.50 a shot I'd probably have bought 2 or 3 of them for my eldest when she was starting off

I've no problem with the school or the PA making a small profit on this because it will save the parents a fortune in the long run

A nice generic grey jumper in Tesco/Dunnes/M&S for €5-€7 plus a €2.50 crest versus a €20 jumper from a local retailer!!! That's a saving of between €10.50 and €12.50 per jumper x 8 years of school!!!!

gcgirl

embee wrote: »

gcgirl wrote: »

Send your kids to a Educate Together school, they have no school uniforms .

That isn't true at all. The ET school in my own town has a uniform, as do others in the county.

http://www.independent.ie/education/back-to-school/the-great-uniform-debate-2842913.html

Have a look at this but the majority have no Uniforms

embee

To be honest, I'm not in favour of a non-uniform policy. My issue with uniforms in schools is merely the insistence on crested over generic and the pressure it puts on parents like me.

lazygal

I have to preface my comment by saying I'm not a parent.

But I have wondered what would happen if a child was sent into school with the generic Tesco or Dunnes jumper in lieu of the crested version etc. and the parent sent a note to the head of the school citing cost etc. as the reason for the generic version. Surely no school in its right mind would send a child home because of a lack of a crest? And if they did, it would say more about the priorities of the school than the parent who genuinely could only afford to pay €10 instead of €40 for a jumper.

I think if I had a few kids to kit out and money was super tight I'd be kitting them out in Dunnes and let the school get over itself.

embee

lazygal wrote: »

I have to preface my comment by saying I'm not a parent.

But I have wondered what would happen if a child was sent into school with the generic Tesco or Dunnes jumper in lieu of the crested version etc. and the parent sent a note to the head of the school citing cost etc. as the reason for the generic version. Surely no school in its right mind would send a child home because of a lack of a crest? And if they did, it would say more about the priorities of the school than the parent who genuinely could only afford to pay €10 instead of €40 for a jumper.

I think if I had a few kids to kit out and money was super tight I'd be kitting them out in Dunnes and let the school get over itself.

What happens is you get a "helpful" note home from the school detailing full uniform requirements. My wee girl has a crested uniform but the jumper is going to be too hot until its well into winter (the pinafore is a woollen mix too so she'll be boiling). So, for September at least, she will be going into school in her uniform minus the crested jumper and instead she'll be wearing a light cardigan, in the proper colour, which I bought in Tescos. They'll send me home wee notes all the time but I'm just going to do exactly as you say, and send my own wee note back in.

In the winter, they don't want the girls wearing boots, because of how it "looks". During that icey snowy weather last year my wee one went into school with freezing feet in her normal shoes (and woolly tights) for a couple of days before I said enough is enough, she went into school the next day in furry lined boots. She was happier. Teacher wasn't, but seriously.... they aren't even allowed plain black leather boots for the winter. That is just frankly ridiculous.

Morag

lazygal a lot of pressure is put on when you don't have the school uniform.

From loosing merits and getting a black marks to other kids putting on pressure and questioing/tormenting your child, to letters and phone called from the school to offers to have it bougth by the school and for you to pay it back each week.

It not as simple as letting the school get over itself.

byhookorbycrook

If so many people are against the uniform,why is not changed?

OS119

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If so many people are against the uniform,why is not changed?

the unfortunate answer is that either those on the decision-making body are vicious tossers with no concern for the welfare of the children they are supplosed to be responsible for, or they're on the take from the 'approved/required' suppliers.

the fundamental problem is the state refuses to take control of education because it would involve footing the bill for it.

embee

OS119 wrote: »

the unfortunate answer is that either those on the decision-making body are vicious tossers with no concern for the welfare of the children they are supplosed to be responsible for, or they're on the take from the 'approved/required' suppliers.

the fundamental problem is the state refuses to take control of education because it would involve footing the bill for it.

OS119, I very much doubt that the people making these decisions are either "vicious tossers" or "on the take". It is very easy to assume some sort of conspiracy at play or to abuse those making decisions like these, but "vicious tossers"? That is a touch over the top and very much a case of tarring everyone with one big brush.

Tone down the abuse and insinuations, unless you have evidence to back any of the "on the take" accusations up.

Morag

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If so many people are against the uniform,why is not changed?

Cos it is hard to get enough parents to band together to make change happen.

byhookorbycrook

Sharrow wrote: »

Cos it is hard to get enough parents to band together to make change happen.

But if people feel so strongly surely they can get together??

implausible

Sharrow wrote: »

Cos it is hard to get enough parents to band together to make change happen.

Every school in this country has a Parents' Association and at least one parent rep on the Board of Management and those schools will tell you that Parents' Association meetings are poorly attended. Why? Parents don't have/make the time and leave it up to the same ol' mouthpieces to talk and make the decisions. Schools are a hell of a lot more democratically run than they were 15 years ago when the local parish priest ran the show, so there really is no excuse for parents complaining that they have no say. It's like not voting in a general election and then giving out that the Govt is useless.

Lots of parents and the media spend August complaining about the price of uniforms, books and voluntary contributions. Yet, when the first PA meeting on a dark wet Wednesday in November comes around, the same people have forgot their complaints and don't go.

Parents have power. They can bring suggestions re: uniforms to the PA meeting, pass a motion, lobby the other members of the BOM and get something done, but that needs to be sorted well before Spring of next year to affect September next year.

Morag

No, not every school does. Many have lapsed or never got of the ground or malinger on with a small group of parents controlling it and not listening to other parents.

I am currently the interim secatry of PA start up the primary school one of my children attends. The last time there was one was over 12 years ago. The one for the local secondary school has lapsed as well due to not enough parental involvement.

You are right, people complain but there is apathy due to when those who want to bring about change find nothing but frustration.

implausible

Sharrow wrote: »

No, not every school does. Many have lapsed or never got of the ground or malinger on with a small group of parents controlling it and not listening to other parents.

I am currently the interim secatry of PA start up the primary school one of my children attends. The last time there was one was over 12 years ago. The one for the local secondary school has lapsed as well due to not enough parental involvement.

That's crazy, I was sure that they were statutory:eek:. I'd imagine that Dept inspectors in any Whole School Evaluation would not be impressed by that!

Morag

Yes every school is meant to have them but you can't force people.

When we were trying to get people to attend start up meetings many assumed there was one, and that it was the usual clique who do the coffee mornings as it's two of them over the years who have been the parent's reps for the BOM, but there hasn't been an actual PA in all that time, no meetings, no minutes, no accountability, no AGM so no mandate and trying to get people to get invovled to make it happen is hard.

embee

deemark wrote: »

Every school in this country has a Parents' Association and at least one parent rep on the Board of Management and those schools will tell you that Parents' Association meetings are poorly attended. Why? Parents don't have/make the time and leave it up to the same ol' mouthpieces to talk and make the decisions. Schools are a hell of a lot more democratically run than they were 15 years ago when the local parish priest ran the show, so there really is no excuse for parents complaining that they have no say. It's like not voting in a general election and then giving out that the Govt is useless.

Lots of parents and the media spend August complaining about the price of uniforms, books and voluntary contributions. Yet, when the first PA meeting on a dark wet Wednesday in November comes around, the same people have forgot their complaints and don't go.

Parents have power. They can bring suggestions re: uniforms to the PA meeting, pass a motion, lobby the other members of the BOM and get something done, but that needs to be sorted well before Spring of next year to affect September next year.

So, in a roundabout sort of way it's the fault of parents eh? Some of us simply don't have the time to devote to Parents Association. If I had time, I'd do it, but I just can't. I don't think there's any scenario whereby we can realistically pin this one on the involvment (or lack thereof) of parents in PA's.

implausible

embee wrote: »

So, in a roundabout sort of way it's the fault of parents eh? Some of us simply don't have the time to devote to Parents Association. If I had time, I'd do it, but I just can't. I don't think there's any scenario whereby we can realistically pin this one on the involvment (or lack thereof) of parents in PA's.

I'm not blaming the parents for the school uniform situation. I'm saying that if parents want change, they have to get involved. There is no point in complaining on a message board or on other media. There is a process in place in most schools that allows parents to have their democratic say.

thesimpsons

embee wrote: »

So, in a roundabout sort of way it's the fault of parents eh? Some of us simply don't have the time to devote to Parents Association. If I had time, I'd do it, but I just can't. I don't think there's any scenario whereby we can realistically pin this one on the involvment (or lack thereof) of parents in PA's.

an hour once a month is all it usually takes to attend the meetings

embee

thesimpsons wrote: »

an hour once a month is all it usually takes to attend the meetings

I literally do not have the time to give, even if it is "only" an hour once a month. The nature of my studies mean I am doing shiftwork on placements. I have tons of assignments, research, portfolios etc to do as well as parent my daughter alone and help her with her schooling. It's grand for those with more support, but I just don't.

chicamom

implausible wrote: »

Every school in this country has a Parents' Association and at least one parent rep on the Board of Management and those schools will tell you that Parents' Association meetings are poorly attended. Why? Parents don't have/make the time and leave it up to the same ol' mouthpieces to talk and make the decisions. Schools are a hell of a lot more democratically run than they were 15 years ago when the local parish priest ran the show, so there really is no excuse for parents complaining that they have no say. It's like not voting in a general election and then giving out that the Govt is useless.

Lots of parents and the media spend August complaining about the price of uniforms, books and voluntary contributions. Yet, when the first PA meeting on a dark wet Wednesday in November comes around, the same people have forgot their complaints and don't go.

Parents have power. They can bring suggestions re: uniforms to the PA meeting, pass a motion, lobby the other members of the BOM and get something done, but that needs to be sorted well before Spring of next year to affect September next year.

You assume democracy has reached all corners of this country. Not so. Not all schools have a PA. Not all BoM's play by the rules, even their own rules! Not all parents have power. Some corruption exists in education. Education represents 20% of GDP in most countries worldwide.Big money involved, and yet very little public awareness/perception of corruption. INTO and Teachers keep plugging the hard-done by , hard working-dedicated teachers and self sacrificing nature of the job...blah blah. Studies are currently underway regarding this very topic by UNESCO (amongst others). Very interesting reading.
I was elected on our BoM recently as parent rep. Because I am blow-in and less constrained by local and family ties and loyalties, I'm more inclined to speak out on issues. Six months later, still no meeting called. In the meantime when I raised issues re: school financial matters,clientelism,un fair tendering for maintenance jobs, lack of transparency around fundraising practices and disbursements, not to mention unfair extra charges to parents etc., PP and Principal ambushed me in a private meeting instead. Result: After 8 years of my kids attending there, I've pulled my three kids from the school (even tho' it's small and struggling for numbers, rural, 2-teacher) Drastic..yes. Necessary to ensure they would not be victimised by Principal who dislikes being questioned by their mother...yes. Implausible, do you think? Well, I've now got three homeschoolers on my hands who would strongly disagree with you. No Parents Association by the way, (was promised but never materialised). Don't start me on the uniform issue....how about one designated local supplier in our small nearby town and 18 village schools in catchment area (needless to say similar, but all slightly different uniforms)? Big business opportunity, big prices, big rip-off...and as for Text-to-Parent scam. Did you know IPPN (Irish Primary Principals Network) profit from all text-outs made to parents on this system? Tax payers pay the bill, teacher's org receive profits? How is that fair.. and why can't they avail of free web-texts like any other organisation? It seems : Thars no business like skool business, It's like no business I know!!! No doubt you know all this already, as I suspect you are a teacher, Implausible.

dillo2k10

chicamom wrote: »

You assume democracy has reached all corners of this country. Not so. Not all schools have a PA. Not all BoM's play by the rules, even their own rules! Not all parents have power. Some corruption exists in education. Education represents 20% of GDP in most countries worldwide.Big money involved, and yet very little public awareness/perception of corruption. INTO and Teachers keep plugging the hard-done by , hard working-dedicated teachers and self sacrificing nature of the job...blah blah. Studies are currently underway regarding this very topic by UNESCO (amongst others). Very interesting reading.
I was elected on our BoM recently as parent rep. Because I am blow-in and less constrained by local and family ties and loyalties, I'm more inclined to speak out on issues. Six months later, still no meeting called. In the meantime when I raised issues re: school financial matters,clientelism,un fair tendering for maintenance jobs, lack of transparency around fundraising practices and disbursements, not to mention unfair extra charges to parents etc., PP and Principal ambushed me in a private meeting instead. Result: After 8 years of my kids attending there, I've pulled my three kids from the school (even tho' it's small and struggling for numbers, rural, 2-teacher) Drastic..yes. Necessary to ensure they would not be victimised by Principal who dislikes being questioned by their mother...yes. Implausible, do you think? Well, I've now got three homeschoolers on my hands who would strongly disagree with you. No Parents Association by the way, (was promised but never materialised). Don't start me on the uniform issue....how about one designated local supplier in our small nearby town and 18 village schools in catchment area (needless to say similar, but all slightly different uniforms)? Big business opportunity, big prices, big rip-off...and as for Text-to-Parent scam. Did you know IPPN (Irish Primary Principals Network) profit from all text-outs made to parents on this system? Tax payers pay the bill, teacher's org receive profits? How is that fair.. and why can't they avail of free web-texts like any other organisation? It seems : Thars no business like skool business, It's like no business I know!!! No doubt you know all this already, as I suspect you are a teacher, Implausible.

Only a year late :rolleyes: