Ideal suckler cow

flatout11

Thought id throw this one out there and get your views/expierence in terms of on whats you think is the ideal suckler cow (profit, quality, milk docility etc...)
probably best split this into 2 types of cow as ther may be differences:
(1) to produce weanlings
(2) to keep progeny to finish

Muckit

All I know is that it's as much about good breeding, as saying one particular breed is better than another.

Tipp Man

Don't do sucklers - never have and hopefully never will so my opinion means very little but here it is anyway

I'd go with a decent hereford or angus cow - still a big supply from the dairy herds - plenty of milk - not carrying a huge cow over the winter so should eat less - they are hardy as f##k both cows and calves - most are docile - they can throw decent calves either a pure AA/Herford or when cross bred - you don't need to bring their calves to a ton weight before you can kill them, they will fatten rapidly

i noticed in the journal for the last couple of weeks that the northern ireland suckler farmers they featured were using angus and were apparently making money - yet down here it's all about U and E grade weanlings from huge continentals but there's no money in it apparently.

I think Teagasc turned their backs on the Angus and Herefords a bit too fast - highlighted by the fact they have neither at Grange

Kovu

flatout11 wrote: »

Thought id throw this one out there and get your views/expierence in terms of on whats you think is the ideal suckler cow (profit, quality, milk docility etc...)
probably best split this into 2 types of cow as ther may be differences:
(1) to produce weanlings
(2) to keep progeny to finish

What I've learned with the sucklers that a handy sized cow (550-600kg) and well fleshed if she hits the 600kg. The best I've seen yet is a Lim out of a SI/Ch cross dam. The Lim brings bilk, the Ch good bone and confirmation and the SI brings the growth and also milk. To crosses like this we've had 10 month old full bulls reaching between 560- 640 kg. And usually heifers reach 440- 500 kg. When we take out our feed costs, we usually have spent only about €75 on each animal and along with worming/testing/fertiliser etc, total costs are well below what we get for them. Then again, if I was being paid an hourly wage for looking after them, I'd be well underpaid!:D

Grecco

Karen112 wrote: »

10 month old full bulls reaching between 560- 640 kg.

thats an astonishing growth rate -- over 2kg per day!!!

whelan1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Don't do sucklers - never have and hopefully never will so my opinion means very little but here it is anyway

I'd go with a decent hereford or angus cow - still a big supply from the dairy herds - plenty of milk - not carrying a huge cow over the winter so should eat less - they are hardy as f##k both cows and calves - most are docile - they can throw decent calves either a pure AA/Herford or when cross bred - you don't need to bring their calves to a ton weight before you can kill them, they will fatten rapidly

i noticed in the journal for the last couple of weeks that the northern ireland suckler farmers they featured were using angus and were apparently making money - yet down here it's all about U and E grade weanlings from huge continentals but there's no money in it apparently.

I think Teagasc turned their backs on the Angus and Herefords a bit too fast - highlighted by the fact they have neither at Grange

dont know if its the year thats in it but we could have sold our angus bulls 3 times over , theres a serious demand for them

Muckit

Grecco wrote: »

thats an astonishing growth rate -- over 2kg per day!!!

Yes thats more of the 'bull' you get on here:rolleyes:

Kovu

Grecco wrote: »

thats an astonishing growth rate -- over 2kg per day!!!

If you see how much they ate, then you'd see! These aren't all my calves now, just a few we have every year off the better stock that calve early and start feeding early. One that was cut out Dec 24th was 460kg or so by the beginning of August. Then again, he did actually sleep in the creep feeder at times. It's no bull, I can put up a pic of him if you want. Although it's not much good with no proof I guess is what I'll be told!

pakalasa

Well, I had one bull sold at 8 months and 430 Kg myself last year so it can be done. Out of a small back limousin. According to ICBF, she is 50% Limousin, 50% Holstein. She has a big bag of milk and calf got a bit of meal, but not much.

Western Pomise

Your ? should also mention what quality of land said sucklers will be on,most sucklers are on marginal land otherwise farmer would be dairying or growing crops.For marginal land the shorthorn of shorthorn lim x or shorthorn char x are hard beat...have growthy well haired well boned calves...dams have lots of milk,
if on top qual land a char or lim x cow with simm or shorthorn back breeding is hard beat...
we have shorthorn cows crossed with good char bull...calves born March/April....sold late Oct...bull calves always over 400 kg...heifir calves over 330 kg...with only bare minimum of creep feed to satisfy suckler scheme....buyers like them as they are not overdone.
I.M.O. Angus dont bring enuf growth and dont kill out well,Hereford too fatty.

Western Pomise

Forgot to mention Shorthorns very docile too....to be fair most Angus and Hereford are too...NOT TRUE OF LIM!!

blue5000

This thread seems to crop up every few months.....

But in my experience the best cows are 1/2 canadian angus 1/4 british fresian and 1/4 belgian blue.

I see an article on last wks 'comic' about using pure bred cows, in particular saler cows. Herefords are docile ok but they are not as hardy as angus. Personally I don't like limousins because I've been walked on or stuck against a wall by them too often.

Charolais and simmental would be ok if you like making silage all summer as a hobby. Don't forget there are huge variations within each breed as well.

I wonder would any breed of cow still leave a profit without a sub?

Muckit

Karen112 wrote: »

If you see how much they ate, then you'd see! These aren't all my calves now, just a few we have every year off the better stock that calve early and start feeding early. One that was cut out Dec 24th was 460kg or so by the beginning of August. Then again, he did actually sleep in the creep feeder at times. It's no bull, I can put up a pic of him if you want. Although it's not much good with no proof I guess is what I'll be told!

Oh I don't doubt you. But the calves you talk of are the exception, not the rule.

One swallow never made a summer, nor one good weanling a lad rich

Trying to find 'the secret recipe' to develop a herd of sucklers to produce calves 'like peas in a pod' as growthy as the 'tops' you talk about, is the aspiration of many a farmer

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

I wonder would any breed of cow still leave a profit without a sub?

IMO suckling has to be 1 of the most inefficient forms of farming you can get

Having a 600kg+ animal on the farm 365 days a year just to get a calve from her doesn't really make sense when you think about it. It is only really suitable for marginal land that you can't plough or have dairy and even then other beef enterprises would be more efficient in my opinion

I wonder in 2020 how many sucklers there will be in the country? (although the go for suckler replacement heifers seems to be stronger than every)

Kovu

Muckit wrote: »

Oh I don't doubt you. But the calves you talk of are the exception, not the rule.

One swallow never made a summer, nor one good weanling a lad rich

Trying to find 'the secret recipe' to develop a herd of sucklers to produce calves 'like peas in a pod' as growthy as the 'tops' you talk about, is the aspiration of many a farmer

Yup indeed, I was just saying that that is the type of cow that works for us here. The only problem is replacements, we don't buy in so it's a lovely wait to try and get the herd to the one standard. One good weanling gets a nice profit at the agri shows as well though!

Tipp Man

Karen112 wrote: »

If you see how much they ate, then you'd see! These aren't all my calves now, just a few we have every year off the better stock that calve early and start feeding early. One that was cut out Dec 24th was 460kg or so by the beginning of August. Then again, he did actually sleep in the creep feeder at times. It's no bull, I can put up a pic of him if you want. Although it's not much good with no proof I guess is what I'll be told!

By cut I assume you mean C section - if thats the case then by the time you've paid for the c-section (cow get infection or go back in calve??) and the calves residency in the creep feeder then he'd want to be making a hell of a lot of money to break even - is it worth it??

Kovu

Tipp Man wrote: »

By cut I assume you mean C section - if thats the case then by the time you've paid for the c-section (cow get infection or go back in calve??) and the calves residency in the creep feeder then he'd want to be making a hell of a lot of money to break even - is it worth it??

Back in calf but was culled the year after that. So yea, the €250 can be taken off his profit. We've only had two sections here in the last 15 years......and now I've prob jinxed that! We don't feed ad lib though, so the two big lads we tend to have every year are more than likely getting a good chunk of the feed. Between about the 9 calves in that field, they get a 25kg bag a day, and I seen them stopping younger calves going in. But milk is a great help to them, a cow with good milk will be the best boost a calf can get. Last year we worked out if we could make money with no subs, we just about managed it, but it would have been a very very very tight year!

Bizzum

A couple of things a cow should have:

Plenty of milk.
Muscle in the genes, not necessarily on the arse.
Calve easily.
Go in calf easily.
Breed quality progeny.
Hardiness, longevity, decent carcase wgt, docile...........

Our owns cows are a mix of many breeds, I'm still trying to figure out which is the best combination. When I do, I'll keep it to myself:).

bogman_bass

IMO the 3 most important traits are

Calving ability
Docility
Milk

in that order. If you have those 3 in all your cows it make life much easier for you all round

pakalasa

Yep, and Teagasc aren't much help either.
I'm hoping that the simmental x limousin will do the job. Simmentals are quieter , more milk, growthier. Limousins are musclier, hardier & lighter. Crossed they should balance these traits well.
Crossed back to either Charolais or BB then for full effect of hybrid vigour.

Birdnuts

Western Pomise wrote: »

Forgot to mention Shorthorns very docile too....to be fair most Angus and Hereford are too...NOT TRUE OF LIM!!

I have Angus and Angus/Shorthorn X on the place in coastal North Mayo. Like pets they are and hardy too, plus they do the business when it comes to rearing strong, healthy calves with minimum fuss/cost:)

flatout11

certinally the traditional (either aa or he) cross dairy cow will rear a calf with relitave ease but what do you expect them to be worth - the weanling trade is out ... have they any advantage over a lim x fr?

Tipp Man

flatout11 wrote: »

certinally the traditional (either aa or he) cross dairy cow will rear a calf with relitave ease but what do you expect them to be worth - the weanling trade is out ... have they any advantage over a lim x fr?

have less cows and bring them to beef - they will finish fast and don't require a huge amount of meal

you will also hold more AA cows per acre than big Char or simms so you should have more animals to sell - they don't need to make as much individually then

A lim x fr is an excellent animal - problem is there is too much holstein and/or jersey in the dairy herd so you loose a lot of quality

Like i say though i ain't no suckler farmer

Tora Bora

Sometimes the idea of what makes the ideal suckler cow just confuses me.
How do you explain where a given cow a AI bred limousine off a purebred simmental cow, can produce simply outstanding quality calves (at birth and weaned) say two out of three years. Then third year, from same AI bull you get middeling calf at birth and a barely passable calf at weaning.
I'm looking at the poor one this year:(

I often think it's no different than human breeding. Sure if you look at families, couple of lads are 6 foot three, and broad shouldered and the two other brothers, are like a couple of bantam weight boxers How is that explained:eek:

reilig

Karen112 wrote: »

If you see how much they ate, then you'd see! These aren't all my calves now, just a few we have every year off the better stock that calve early and start feeding early. One that was cut out Dec 24th was 460kg or so by the beginning of August. Then again, he did actually sleep in the creep feeder at times. It's no bull, I can put up a pic of him if you want. Although it's not much good with no proof I guess is what I'll be told!

I have a couple of weinlings myself that were born in December and are weighing 450kg+. They got minimal creep this year compared to others but they had fresh grass ahead of them at all times. they have been weined for over a month now and are getting 3kg per head of meal since weining. They will be sold in the next few weeks.

What is an ideal suckler cow???

I have quite a number that I think are ideal.
Milk, easy calving, and Docility are important. But without muscle, you won't achieve good prices. Buyers will know a milk fattened calf an mile away and he won't achieve the same price as a naturally muscley calf who was probably sucking on a cow with lower milk volumes. Its important to have a mix between the two. Some of my best cows are 1/4 or 1/8 freisian. They have enough milk, but they also have muscle. Many are black limousins and I use BB on them. However, I also have limousinx and Chaorlaisx cows that I would consider equally as good - they have only got 1/16 freisian in them, yet they have plenty of milk.

I have a theory on Docility of animals. 25% is breeding, 75% is you. I know people who have animals that will jump the ditches if a stranger even looks in the field gate. Their cows would nail you when they calve and its not safe even for the owner to go into the field to look at them. Farming isn't a fly by night thing. Its not something that you can just take up by buying a few cattle and throwing them into a field. It takes years to learn about cattle by working with them. It takes years for cattle to learn about you. I'm not an expert, I'm still learining and probably will be learning for the rest of my life. I can go into the field and walk between any of my cows - the majority, I can scratch their backs. if I'm moving them, I just have to open the gate and call them and they will come running and follow me to the next field. In my opinion, you can only buy a certain amount of docility - the majority of it is training by you.

So in answer to the OP, everyone will have a different ideal suckler cow. It will depend on the type of land that you have, the type of weinling that you want to produce, your feeding regeim etc. What works well for some may not work at all for others. A lot of it is trial and error.

flatout11

funny the scots take a different approach to the suckler cow .. then again the scale is a lot bigger
i remember reading about one farm that operated a closed herd only buying in bulls
the herd was based on limmy x aa cows. all first and second calvers were put to either a lm or aa bull (lm's to a angus bull and aa's to a limmy bull) these produced the replacements heifers for the herd
the rest 3rd calvers and up were all put to a charo, they finished all the stock, cows were impressive it looked like a nice simple system
although the fact that he had 200 + cows he could justify the cost of having 2 stock bulls to produce replacements

flatout11

Tipp Man wrote: »

you will also hold more AA cows per acre than big Char or simms so you should have more animals to sell

sounds great, but its cows per shed rather than cows per acre thats the can often be the limiting factor.... often think this is the case in dairying too

although you do make a valid piont a big cow 750 - 800 kg plus can be a serious dissadvantage if you factor in extra feed, poaching etc... one that hasnt helped the simm cows

reilig

flatout11 wrote: »

funny the scots take a different approach to the suckler cow .. then again the scale is a lot bigger
i remember reading about one farm that operated a closed herd only buying in bulls
the herd was based on limmy x aa cows. all first and second calvers were put to either a lm or aa bull (lm's to a angus bull and aa's to a limmy bull) these produced the replacements heifers for the herd
the rest 3rd calvers and up were all put to a charo, they finished all the stock, cows were impressive it looked like a nice simple system
although the fact that he had 200 + cows he could justify the cost of having 2 stock bulls to produce replacements

Limousin x aa cows will all be black cows. If you breed weinlings off a Chaorlais bull to these cows you would end up with moucey brown calves - irish cattle buyers do not like this colour and you would therefore end up selling your weinlings at a lower price than similar weight white or yellow calves.

pakalasa

The approach I've taken the last few years is to breed replacements from my best cows. I judge one as 'good' for the usual reasons (milk, cavling ability, quality of weanling etc...) and I then try to pick an AI bull that corrects whatever faults she has. Simmental to add milk, docility, Limousins like FL21 (top 15% across breeds for maternal calving) to add calving ability, muscle etc.

I like the idea of breeding you own too, as you can go back generations of cows you know, so you're far more likey to have a good one. Look at dairying, how many heifers coming into a diary herd have very little milk. Simply because there is milk going back generations on both sides. Same for suckling, if you have the desirable traits going back generations too, then you are almost quaranteed a good one.

Muckit

Tora Bora wrote: »

Sometimes the idea of what makes the ideal suckler cow just confuses me.
How do you explain where a given cow a AI bred limousine off a purebred simmental cow, can produce simply outstanding quality calves (at birth and weaned) say two out of three years. Then third year, from same AI bull you get middeling calf at birth and a barely passable calf at weaning.
I'm looking at the poor one this year:(

I often think it's no different than human breeding. Sure if you look at families, couple of lads are 6 foot three, and broad shouldered and the two other brothers, are like a couple of bantam weight boxers How is that explained:eek:

I couldn't agree more with you Tora. I've been banging on about this before. There's no easy answer. Lads will ate the head off me, but it's 'pot luck' alot of the time. This crack fo the ICBF ratings is very 'pie in the sky'. Yes it would be excellent if it worked in practice and you could say yes once I pick this bull and put him on this cow I am guaranteed a top class animal. But we're not!!

All the PB and show cattle commercial guys are only bringing out the best of the best of their herd........ that's easy!! Let me onto their farm and let me see all their herd, cows, bulls, calves and show me consistency down along the line. Is it acheivable?? I'm not convinced.

If it is, is it possible to replicate that 'ideal' farm right across the country based on a consistently workable breeding formula ????

flatout11

reilig wrote: »

Limousin x aa cows will all be black cows. If you breed weinlings off a Chaorlais bull to these cows you would end up with moucey brown calves - irish cattle buyers do not like this colour and you would therefore end up selling your weinlings at a lower price than similar weight white or yellow calves.

actually they were mostly yellowish but didnt matter to him as they were all going on the hook!
if you were selling as weanlings cross them to a blue
liked the idea of producing your own, problem here is that it is a lot easier for larger herds and its hard to find farmers consistently producing suitable replacements (excl dairy herds)

pakalasa

Muckit wrote: »

I couldn't agree more with you Tora. I've been banging on about this before. There's no easy answer. Lads will ate the head off me, but it's 'pot luck' alot of the time. This crack fo the ICBF ratings is very 'pie in the sky'. Yes it would be excellent if it worked in practice and you could say yes once I pick this bull and put him on this cow I am guaranteed a top class animal. But we're not!!

All the PB and show cattle commercial guys are only bringing out the best of the best of their herd........ that's easy!! Let me onto their farm and let me see all their herd, cows, bulls, calves and show me consistency down along the line. Is it acheivable?? I'm not convinced.

If it is, is it possible to replicate that 'ideal' farm right across the country based on a consistently workable breeding formula ????

Well, I agree with all you are saying. There will always be variation when breeding cattle, but the 'average' of these variations can be improved by breeding the best with the best.
As for the ICBF figures, these are all averages. In fact they dont give any idea at all, about the variation in the trait. As for 'pie in the sky' the figures are derived from a huge amount of data collected from marts, calving surveys etc.
For example if you have a bull with a weanling value of say €50 more than another bull. If you were to use both bulls across a lot of cow types, I guarantee you the value of the weanlings would be very close to €50 more. It's statistics after all, a bit like exit polls in politics, you be amazed how accurate they can be.

Tora Bora

pakalasa wrote: »

Well, I agree with all you are saying. There will always be variation when breeding cattle, but the 'average' of these variations can be improved by breeding the best with the best.
As for the ICBF figures, these are all averages. In fact they dont give any idea at all, about the variation in the trait. As for 'pie in the sky' the figures are derived from a huge amount of data collected from marts, calving surveys etc.
For example if you have a bull with a weanling value of say €50 more than another bull. If you were to use both bulls across a lot of cow types, I guarantee you the value of the weanlings would be very close to €50 more. It's statistics after all, a bit like exit polls in politics, you be amazed how accurate they can be.

A LOT, of the data being collected by ICBF, is just plain wrong and giving false directions.
These breeders just will not tell ICBF the true picture relating to calving difficulty, or docility, etc.
Many more in the non pedigreed herds, even get the dams of given calves incorrect by leaving registration too late and getting facts mixed up.
Then there is the "show" class calves, born in November, and registered as born the following February / March:cool: Fcku sake, never let the facts get in the way, of a good story

pakalasa

Tora Bora wrote: »

A LOT, of the data being collected by ICBF, is just plain wrong and giving false directions.

A lot of it is wrong, but on average it is equally wrong for all bulls, so in effect it all cancels out. It doesn't matter if even 20% of the data is rubbish. The 80% that is good is still good enough to allow bulls to be compared.

Tora Bora wrote: »

These breeders just will not tell ICBF the true picture relating to calving difficulty, or docility, etc.

ICBF don't include data from breeders for this very reason. We all know Charolais bulls are reared under Friesian cows etc etc.

Tora Bora wrote: »

Then there is the "show" class calves, born in November, and registered as born the following February / March:cool: Fcku sake, never let the facts get in the way, of a good story

The % of show calves is minimal so any error from them is not worth talking about.

Tora Bora wrote: »

... never let the facts get in the way, of a good story

What other story is there? The breeder that tells you his bull is the 'bees knees'.

johnpawl

On the topic of ideal suckler cows, I've some AA cows off a friesan herd. Have them in calf to the PT bull BZB and hope to get some replacement heifers.Should have docility and milk and muscle in the genepool, hopefully anyway...Planning to put a blue bull on them then, might even try sansonnet some time in the future see what he throws...

ltec

reilig wrote: »

Limousin x aa cows will all be black cows. If you breed weinlings off a Chaorlais bull to these cows you would end up with moucey brown calves - irish cattle buyers do not like this colour and you would therefore end up selling your weinlings at a lower price than similar weight white or yellow calves.

yes ive heard this before.
Is their any other colours or breeds that you shouldnt mix.

johnpawl

ltec wrote: »

yes ive heard this before.
Is their any other colours or breeds that you shouldnt mix.

Is this the type of brown colour thats undesirable?

reilig

johnpawl wrote: »

Is this the type of brown colour thats undesirable?

God No,

If you have all your calves that colour then you are doing well. Mousey brown is a kind of grey/brown colour. I have 1 or 2 calves that colour at home - must take a picture of them

flatout11

dont know if the colour is as important anymore - certainly if the calves are good enough
cross a bb with a white charo and you can get a mousey brown, doesnt stop them sellin but a plain calf of this colour vs a plain orange one in the mart... thats a different story

johnpawl

Mighty, charlaois on AA x cows threw this colour on all calves

Atilathehun

johnpawl wrote: »

Is this the type of brown colour thats undesirable?

Jays, your lucky the grass management gurus, didnt make comment on that nice green leafy grass your stock are grazing;)

johnpawl

Atilathehun wrote: »

Jays, your lucky the grass management gurus, didnt make comment on that nice green leafy grass your stock are grazing;)

Haha cutting edge farming! Plus the fence on the ground in the background:)

Pat the lad

have two 10 month old bb bulls after ELZ out of lim x cows. calves where born with in a week of each other. one cows is decent square cow with plenty of milk with Simmental and probably fresian blood if you go back far enough. the other cow is a good red limo with adequate milk, not near as much as the other cow. weighed the calves the other day, calf with access to less milk was 446kg and the other guy was 382kg. me thinks a little breeding goes a long way

Muckit

pakalasa wrote: »

A lot of it is wrong, but on average it is equally wrong for all bulls, so in effect it all cancels out.

So two 'wrongs' apparently do make a right, in Pakalasa's world?!? :rolleyes:

The achilles heel of the ICBF system is as Tora rightly pointed out.......... it relies heavily on farmers inputting data honestly and correctly.

The scope for errors is mind blowing.

Bizzum

Muckit wrote: »

So two 'wrongs' apparently do make a right, in Pakalasa's world?!? :rolleyes:

The achilles heel of the ICBF system is as Tora rightly pointed out.......... it relies heavily on farmers inputting data honestly and correctly.

The scope for errors is mind blowing.

I think MOST farmers try to put in correct data. But even so if a large percentage is bull****, at least a general trend if nothing else can be observed. It also allows the system handlers to perhaps hone and streamline questions where the percieved veracity of input data is less than what would be liked.
Maybe ICBF need to changing tact in order help farmers/stakeholders improve the data by asking more pertinent questions?

Bizzum

Pat the lad wrote: »

have two 10 month old bb bulls after ELZ out of lim x cows. calves where born with in a week of each other. one cows is decent square cow with plenty of milk with Simmental and probably fresian blood if you go back far enough. the other cow is a good red limo with adequate milk, not near as much as the other cow. weighed the calves the other day, calf with access to less milk was 446kg and the other guy was 382kg. me thinks a little breeding goes a long way

My Grandfather used to say 'An ounce of breeding's worth a tonne of feeding' and that's not today nor yesterday!

Muckit

Bizzum wrote: »

I think MOST farmers try to put in correct data.

Your probably right, but as I said before, even with the best will in the world, data can be inputted incorrectly.

The calving difficulty figure then is another area thats bothers me.

If the cow and the bull contribute 50/50 to the attributes of the calf, then is the calfing difficulty index not as much a measurement one particular cows ability to throw a calf as opposed to a 100% indication of the bulls influence on it's progeny size??

pakalasa

Bizzum wrote: »

I think MOST farmers try to put in correct data. But even so if a large percentage is bull****, at least a general trend if nothing else can be observed.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. When you think about it what data can farmers input that's rubbish. They can lie about the calving survey, say it was a normal calving when it was a hard pull, but how does that benefit them. Would you not want to warn other farmers about the bull, say if it was in AI. If you lie about the birth date, what do you do the following year, you have to lie again. You can't say a cow calved twice in say 8 months. So you end up with a lot of calves running around not registered. Nothing better to set alarm bells ringing in the dept computer..;). What do you do if you have an inspection?

Bizzum

Muckit wrote: »

The calving difficulty figure then is another area thats bothers me.

I know where you're coming from here.
There are cows at home that would calve any bull you put to them, with a reasonable sized calf, and there are others that will produce a bear of a calf no matter how easy on paper the bull is.

I still think though that data is important and as more comes onstream the more valuable it becomes.

Bizzum

I think Charlie Manson summed it up concisely when he said:

"No sense, makes sense."

bogman_bass

Lads I think you are forgetting a very important fact here and thats that Eurostar figures were never ment to be the be all and end all.
They are, however a useful INDICATOR of what a bull might produce.

As for calving, while it wont tell you the likelyhood of a difficult calving on a perticular cow, you can generally use it to distinguish an easy calving bull from one thats throwing monster providing that there is a resonable number of calvings in the survey

always take the reliability into account when reading the figures