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Beasty

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Friday threads, it's up to you guys.

On this, I would add it was the current mod team that started some specific ones off last autumn;), but tbh we ran out of ideas. There are plenty of bright posters out there who I am sure can give us some steer on such threads going forward though.

Of course, there's a difference between those we may seek to "set-up" and those that occur more "naturally" - last Friday was a classic example of the latter, where a thread that could have gone very badly wrong actually turned out quite entertaining. However it does generally require everyone to take those threads in the right spirit (whether originally intended or not) to avoid them turning into "problem" threads.

ROK ON

Mods.

If ye havent done so already then head over to the ART forum.
They have three sub forums that seem to work well and are regularly frequented.
Events - many people, myself included think we should have one. The one on ART is pretty robust and seems to attract much traffic.
Equipment - we could stick all of the what bike/what shoes/what helmet what ever threads in here.
Training Logs - As is
Adverts - As is.

I dont see what the problem is really. Maybe it is worth trying out.

Beasty

blorg wrote: »

I agree with Lukester and Raam in that moderating has got too heavyhanded. I think El Tonto summed it up very well; things should be left alone to develop and interfered with only when really necessary. I know it can be a difficult line, maybe if a mod asked himself 'do I REALLY need to do this' before acting.

People posting race spoilers though, show no mercy!

Strongly against splitting of the forum- I'd be afraid that branches would start dying off for lack of attention.

blorg's post highlights one of our problems that can result in complaints about over-modding. I know I've closed more than my fair share of threads over the past year, although I have never done so without what I considered good reason

Some posters get very passionate about spoilers, in other cases I've been approached to ask if we could simply do away with the rules. This is an example where we did try and be a bit stricter during the TdF, although even then the vast majority of interventions were in-thread warnings

Other posters are equally passionate about helmet threads - they are sick and tired of them. The problem I see is when we have had page after page of entreched views, and we are left (usually late at night) with a handful of posters slogging it out. In those circumstances I may well take the view it's better closing the thread than waking up the following morning and having to dish out a load of infractions and/or bans. It's a similar situation with other areas of debate, such as motorist v cyclist ones, or RLJ/get off the pavement threads. One good current example of a thread that has not gone that way is the cycling on motorway one, where everyone has kept it civil, and there appears no risk of someone going off on one.

Obviously we do sometimes get non-regulars coming in highjacking and spoiling threads, and in such circumstances we will try to deal with the specific poster rather than closing the thread

When it comes to the adverts sub-forum, I personally have tried to apply the rules fairly. I don't see why anyone should get the benefit of "being a good poster" in general if they then flout the rules, and I don't see why we should let some get away with stuff that others would not. I do think we have less discretion there to make that sub-forum fair to all its users

Of coures, if everything could be like the training logs subforum we probably wouldn't need any moderators;) (but you lot would quickly get very bored)

A final point on locking threads - we will always do it where medical advice is sought, illegal activity is promoted, faces of alleged bike thieves are posted, or there is any risk of legal challenge to boards - this is a site-wide requirement, and we have no discretion on such matters

TinyExplosions

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Mods being heavy handed, I think we'll be discussing this amongst ourselves. The critics of the no chat thread, personally I feel justified, there are other similar threads on boards, there is always images of beauty for chat. Also threads like helmet debates usually end up with infractions and bitching, which I'd rather prevent. It's a balancing act, which is fairly hard but it's the posters which rule the forum not the mods and to be fair all of us have been open to suggestions.

I'd be inclined to say that, aside from the legal things that are being pushed down on you from higher up, Mods should let threads take their course. If someone wants to throw a hissy fit on a helmet thread, then fine -I'm certainly in the 'give em enough rope to hang them with' camp. I realise that shutting threads early is maybe less work for mods, but it starts to smack a bit of 'precrime'

niceonetom

I, while grateful for the good work that the mods do, am also in the camp concerned about overly assertive modding.

Tone is the issue. It's a subtle and ultimately undefinable thing, but changes in it are something we are all acutely aware of. So minor changes in, say, the locking of threads, the use of bold, or occasional pre-emptive warnings to steer conversation in one direction over another, these do over time alter the tone to a point where chat can become stilted, or tentative, or just a little duller. We haven't reached that yet, but I feel that that's the direction things have gone in since the laissez-faire solitary dictatorship of Lumen was replaced with our current, more active, triumvirate. Of course there are many other factors besides modding that determine the tone or level of conversation on the forum too. It's not all down to the mods.

My real bugbears are pre-emptive modding and collective punishment or, more specifically, the locking of threads which in the moderators opinion have the potential to go astray. While moderating is a thankless task (this thread not withstanding) the inconvenience of modding a thread shouldn't in itself be a sufficient reason to lock it, if only because it's a criterion that could apply to any thread at all. Punishing those who do overstep is justifiable, pre-emptively silencing anyone who could potentially do so is not.

There's no mandate to take mod action against disagreement or even argument. If things become heated, so be it, there's nothing in the charter about everyone having to get on with each other all the time and as long as exchanges remain above the level of actual abuse, libel or defamation (for which the mods do have a mandate to intervene) then mods IMO should be slow to step in. Some read this board purely for its informational content but I think more probably follow it for its entertainment value, and the occasional light flame war can be very entertaining.

All I ask for really is restraint. Reticence. Even a little laziness.

As for numbers of stickies and the repeat-thread issues, I see these as a minor issue. What-bike threads are unavoidable and the best we can hope is that noobs become regulars at a high enough rate to replenish the regulars who burn out and just can't be arsed dealing with new noobs.

lukester

Beasty wrote: »

In those circumstances I may well take the view it's better closing the thread than waking up the following morning and having to dish out a load of infractions and/or bans.

That's the nub right there. You guys have discretion- in such a case I'd argue it's better to leave the thread open with the risk of possible infractions the next day. Closing a thread should in my opinion be an absolute last resort.

Beasty wrote: »

One good current example of a thread that has not gone that way is the cycling on motorway one, where everyone has kept it civil, and there appears no risk of someone going off on one.

But discussion isn't always civil and well-mannered. As long as it stays within the terms of the charter, I'd rather see a heated and ill-mannered but not abusive debate, than one that's been sanitised to the point of utter tedium.

Beasty wrote: »

When it comes to the adverts sub-forum, I personally have tried to apply the rules fairly. I don't see why anyone should get the benefit of "being a good poster" in general if they then flout the rules, and I don't see why we should let some get away with stuff that others would not. I do think we have less discretion there to make that sub-forum fair to all its users

I appreciate adverts is a special case- but again I feel that there should be an element of discretion.

Captain Havoc wrote: »

The critics of the no chat thread, personally I feel justified, there are other similar threads on boards, there is always images of beauty for chat.

There may be similar threads, but there was no discussion on this one. The forum members didn't get to have any say, it came down to the OP's preference, and a moderating decision, accompanied by multiple deletion of posts. This appeared to me at the time as an arbitrary rule introduction, and an important one, because random chat and discussion is what has made this place enjoyable in the past.

Significant rule introductions like this should, in my opinion, be put as a poll to forum members along the lines of: are you interested in having pictures only threads?

Captain Havoc wrote: »

It's a balancing act, which is fairly hard but it's the posters which rule the forum not the mods and to be fair all of us have been open to suggestions.

That's good to hear. My feeling is that lately the balance between posters and mods ruling the forum has been a bit skewed. However I appreciate that it's not always easy to exercise discretion.

I agree with Tiny and others- apart from stuff that absolutely requires closures/deletions, threads should be allowed take their course, not moderated pre-emptively.

When it comes to moderating decisions that come down to closing threads or deleting posts I think the maxim should be: if in doubt, don't.

Cookie_Monster

I've only been active on this forum since Jan but no complaints from me.

It's a lot freer than some, good balance of topics and less serious stuff, potentially dodgy/stupid threads tend to be left alone by mods long enough to develop

Keep up the good work

Beasty

Any thoughts on megathreads? - the ones we've started on the Bike to Work scheme and stolen bikes seem to have gone down well. We've also introduced one on cycling videos. Any other areas we should consider?

Just as an example (and covering off one of the "Hot-topics" already mentioned), we could try and keep helmet discussions in a single thread going forward (we did think about this earlier in the year, but never got round to doing anything). The main problem I would see is that unlike the current Megathreads, one covering something like helmets may only get resurrected every few months, and new posters are unlikely to bother searching (despite our links from the FAQ section, we are still having to regularly transfer posts into the existing megathreads). For new slants we could transfer threads into the existing ones, and for those going over old ground, we could simply close them (I know, you don't like me doing that:p), and refer the OP to the Megathread

Any views?

blorg

Megathreads and active merging of commonly discussed items are one of the positive developments of modding policy IMO. Its the stuff that is more on the side of censorship I take issue with-it locking threads, steering to stay on original topic etc. Legal issues like libel I understand. Medical issues: obviously no medical advice should be given but I think it should be possible to discuss medical problems we may share, threads should not be preemptively locked simply as there is a risk something like medical advice may be given. Maybe needs some guidelines to be workable.

Khannie

Captain Havoc wrote: »

The critics of the no chat thread, personally I feel justified, there are other similar threads on boards, there is always images of beauty for chat.

As a user of the forum I want to +1 this. Some pictures threads on boards which allow chat are a pain in the arse IMO. They end up being all chat and no pictures.

chakattack

Beasty wrote: »

Any thoughts on megathreads? - the ones we've started on the Bike to Work scheme and stolen bikes seem to have gone down well. We've also introduced one on cycling videos. Any other areas we should consider?

Just as an example (and covering off one of the "Hot-topics" already mentioned), we could try and keep helmet discussions in a single thread going forward (we did think about this earlier in the year, but never got round to doing anything). The main problem I would see is that unlike the current Megathreads, one covering something like helmets may only get resurrected every few months, and new posters are unlikely to bother searching (despite our links from the FAQ section, we are still having to regularly transfer posts into the existing megathreads). For new slants we could transfer threads into the existing ones, and for those going over old ground, we could simply close them (I know, you don't like me doing that:p), and refer the OP to the Megathread

Any views?

Just to make my point a second time

I'm in favour of a new bike megathread and against a stolen bikes megathread.

Boring and all as stolen bike threads can be - putting them all in the one ignored thread significantly reduces the chance of someone getting the details out there about their missing pride and joy.

Captain Havoc

chakattack wrote: »

Boring and all as stolen bike threads can be - putting them all in the one ignored thread significantly reduces the chance of someone getting the details out there about their missing pride and joy.

I disagree, I think if you create a stolen bike thread, it'll drop off fairly quickly. This way it has a chance of being noticed again a few days later.

chakattack

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I disagree, I think if you create a stolen bike thread, it'll drop off fairly quickly. This way it has a chance of being noticed again a few days later.

Yeah but I doubt that thread gets the same traffic as individual threads (collectively). Feedback is feedback :cool:

Lumen

chakattack wrote: »

Boring and all as stolen bike threads can be - putting them all in the one ignored thread significantly reduces the chance of someone getting the details out there about their missing pride and joy.

Boring is one thing, pointless is another.

Most new bike threads result in success - a new bike is bought.

How many recovered bikes has the stolen bike thread (or any of the predecessor threads) produced?

What about the massive "campaign" around Mrs Raam's stolen bike? People even had pictures of the "perp" on their sigs, and to what end? No bike. No arrest.

The stolen bike thread is merely cathartic.

Beasty

Lumen wrote: »

Boring is one thing, pointless is another.

Most new bike threads result in success - a new bike is bought.

How many recovered bikes has the stolen bike thread (or any of the predecessor threads) produced?

What about the massive "campaign" around Mrs Raam's stolen bike? People even had pictures of the "perp" on their sigs, and to what end? No bike. No arrest.

The stolen bike thread is merely cathartic.

I think when we discussed this previously we only had one poster say they had a bike recovered by virtue of it being on boards.

The advantage of the mega thread is posters who may have seen something suspicious actually know where to look in the forum (and it's linked from the FAQs)

Sr. Assumpta

Lumen wrote: »

Boring is one thing, pointless is another.

Most new bike threads result in success - a new bike is bought.

How many recovered bikes has the stolen bike thread (or any of the predecessor threads) produced?

What about the massive "campaign" around Mrs Raam's stolen bike? People even had pictures of the "perp" on their sigs, and to what end? No bike. No arrest.

The stolen bike thread is merely cathartic.

Pummeling 'The Perp' into submission with a track pump would be cathartic, and not boring.

The Stolen Bike Thread serves to make those of us, who still possess all of our bikes, appreciate our good fortune; and it allows us sympathise with those less fortunate, a kind of first-world charity empathy thingy.

TinyExplosions

Sr. Assumpta wrote: »

The Stolen Bike Thread serves to make those of us, who still possess all of our bikes, appreciate our good fortune; and it allows us sympathise with those less fortunate, a kind of first-world charity empathy thingy.

Or, as often happens, chide the poor fecker whose pride an joy was stolen for having a crap cable lock

tomasrojo

It would be handy if people were to use descriptive thread titles. There are quite a few threads with titles such as: "A question" or "Does anybody else ...?"

Not sure whether it's a mod issue. It just popped into my head as something that is a minor irritant when one is browsing the forum. You can mouse-over the link and see the start of the first post anyway, I suppose.

Captain Havoc

tomasrojo wrote: »

It would be handy if people were to use descriptive thread titles. There are quite a few threads with titles such as: "A question" or "Does anybody else ...?"

Not sure whether it's a mod issue. It just popped into my head as something that is a minor irritant when one is browsing the forum. You can mouse-over the link and see the start of the first post anyway, I suppose.

They do my nut in.

Squidgy Black

I think there's way to many 'what bike' threads (yeah I've been guilty of it myself )

I think it'd be good if you could adapt a system like the photography forum, where they have a sticky named 'Advice on buying a camera/accessories' and all the 'what should I buy' or 'help me pick' threads are just moved in to the one big thread to free up the main forum.

Just a thought.

Lemag

Against

lukester wrote: »

Posts being deleted for being OT
Post deletion should be reserved only for posts that are offensive and/or libellous, or in blatant breach of the charter. An example of this is the user's fleet thread, where the OP stated their preference for no comments, and instead of this being up for discussion, anything that contravened this preference was deleted.

Raam wrote: »

There have been some arbitrary rule changes which I didn't like, such as the non discussion on the bike fleet thread and on the advert sub forum.

Hail 2 Da Thief wrote: »

+1. It's a discussion forum yet there's no discussion allowed in the thread . Makes no sense imo.

lukester wrote: »

There may be similar threads, but there was no discussion on this one. The forum members didn't get to have any say, it came down to the OP's preference, and a moderating decision, accompanied by multiple deletion of posts. This appeared to me at the time as an arbitrary rule introduction, and an important one, because random chat and discussion is what has made this place enjoyable in the past.

Significant rule introductions like this should, in my opinion, be put as a poll to forum members along the lines of: are you interested in having pictures only threads?

For

Captain Havoc wrote: »

The critics of the no chat thread, personally I feel justified, there are other similar threads on boards, there is always images of beauty for chat

Khannie wrote: »

As a user of the forum I want to +1 this. Some pictures threads on boards which allow chat are a pain in the arse IMO. They end up being all chat and no pictures.

Going by the above it'd appear that there are more who are against 'no discussion' being allowed in the 'fleets' thread. However, those who are pro 'no discussion' in this thread might not have got fair representation here.

As the OP of the Fleets Thread my reasons for suggesting 'no discussion' were thus -

Firstly, I felt that, with discussion allowed, some bikes/fleets would get far more attention than others. Forbidding discussion would eliminate this somewhat (there is the 'thanks' button) and the thread might therefore seem like a more welcoming place for boardsies with not so blinging bikes to contribute also.

Secondly, I thought that it'd be nice to have a thread where one would have the convenience of having the bike images readily available to see with there being one or more images in each post. With discussion allowed there'd be the potential to have pages of comments without any actual image posts.

I don't actually mind if this rule concerning this thread is changed. With discussion allowed it would probably get bumped up more. Although most of the objections seem to be on a principle, at the end of the day, it's just one thread. FMP.

Beasty

On the fleets thread, I was one of those "accused" by some of creating a new rule, and I strongly disagree with this suggestion. As Lemag points out above it was a single thread where the OP requested this (and gave his reasons in-thread). We then had a discussion in the thread (which I subsequently deleted - possibly a mistake on my part given the subsequent, actually quite limited in number, "complaints")

The points that were made was that we already had an "images of Beauty" thread with extensive discussion. The "no-discussion" "requirement" helped distinguish the two threads, and allowed posters to put up their "fleets" knowing there would be no comment, positive or negative

I don't think there's any harm in trying new things in the forum occasionally - we do need to move on and I think the forum is all the better for experimenting a little.

I also don't see the point of having a thread to discuss such things in advance. We can sometimes get accused of being too rigid in our application of the rules (although I consider this probably one of the most lightly moderated of the larger forums on boards). In this case we showed a bit of "moderator discretion". As I said at the time with that particular thread if it worked, all the better, if it didn't, the thread would sink without trace. But I would repeat, there is no new rule, but I see no harm in placing restrictions on certain threads if considered appropriate (although this is the only particular thread I can think we have done it on to date)

Khannie

Captain Havoc wrote: »

They do my nut in.

I bet you click them though.

Guybrush T

I have few problems with the forum, and find it a useful resource. I would like to add a vote for getting rid of spoiler tags, it makes the race threads a pain to read.
I can't see the problem with a simple rule that race threads may contain live updates on the race, if you don't want to know don't look.

Lumen

Guybrush T wrote: »

I would like to add a vote for getting rid of spoiler tags, it makes the race threads a pain to read.

Ctrl+A

Lusk Doyle

tomasrojo wrote: »

You can mouse-over the link and see the start of the first post anyway, I suppose.

Not on smart phones.

Lusk Doyle

Guybrush T wrote: »

I can't see the problem with a simple rule that race threads may contain live updates on the race, if you don't want to know don't look.

I couldn't agree more with you.

Guybrush T

Lumen wrote: »

Ctrl+A

Meh, having everything highlighted isn't very restful to the eyes either....

Lumen

Guybrush T wrote: »

Meh, having everything highlighted isn't very restful to the eyes either....

If you don't want to know don't look.

Beasty

TBH, I'm not sure some of those mentioning the spoiler rules have actually read them!

There is no need to put spoiler tags in stage specific (eg TdF single stage)threads. There is no need to put spoiler tags in one-day race (eg Spring Classic) threads. Posters (should!) know not to look in those threads if they want to watch highlights in blissful ignorance to the days events

However if you happen to mention/hint in the Broomwagon or elsewhere that Cadel Evans has just taken the yellow jersey, then under the rules you should use spoiler tags

Similarly if there is a general thread for a multi-day race, start a specific stage thread and keep all discussion on the day's stage in that thread, and out of the general thread if you don't want to see and use spoilers

Personally I couldn't care less about spoilers, but the rules are actually quite simple to understand and apply

@Lusk Doyle - you do know who came up with the current rules, don't you;)

Guybrush T

Beasty wrote: »

TBH, I'm not sure some of those mentioning the spoiler rules have actually read them!

TBH I'm not sure those using the spoilers have either! How does this increase anyone's enjoyment of a thread?

Raam

Guybrush T wrote: »

TBH I'm not sure those using the spoilers have either! How does this increase anyone's enjoyment of a thread?

My post was not designed to increase anyone's enjoyment of anything.

Guybrush T

Pardon?

Raam

Guybrush T wrote: »

TBH I'm not sure those using the spoilers have either! How does this increase anyone's enjoyment of a thread?

My post was not designed to increase anyone's enjoyment of anything.

Raam

Tee hee!

Lusk Doyle

Raam wrote: »

Tee hee!

You are such a sap sometimes

Lusk Doyle

@ beasty - I sure do and I think that a beating of said person may be called for :cool:

Keep_Her_Lit

Raam wrote: »

My post was not designed to increase anyone's enjoyment of anything.

LOL! Actually, this post shows that vigilant moderation is no impediment to natural, deadpan wit. Nice one Raam!

Keep_Her_Lit

Lots of thoughful, constructive criticism offered already. Just a noob here who only submits the odd post, so don't think I have much to add, except to say that my overall impression of the forum is very positive. I'm assuming that the role of mod is entirely voluntary. If so, thanks for your time and patience. If not, how much are you getting paid?

It's got to be tricky to find the right balance when it comes to warnings, thread locking, infractions, bans, etc. .... you can't please all of the people all of the time. Although I detest unwarranted Nannyism in most areas of life, the benefits of fairly active moderation on this forum are self-evident. Some forums are completely ruined by the level of un-checked vitriol.

Lots of very knowledgeable, smart and witty posters here. All served up with good will and no malice. A good vibe overall, definitely.

Beasty

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

If not, how much are you getting paid?

Same as elsewhere on boards - Vlad gets the coke, the Captain gets the hookers and I get sweet FA ....

CramCycle

I want the entire forum shut down, the damage it is doing both to the Irish economy and my own is untenable.

I used to work hard, earn my pay and save it for stuff I knew I needed. Now I get bored at work, log on here, find out about something I don't want or need and then buy it online for a discount which isn't really a discount because I never really needed it in the first place.

Now I am poor, unsatisfied in work and generally feel sh1t. Suppose it's lucky I can log on here to whinge about it and make myself feel better, whatever would I do without the cycling forum.

CramCycle

Also the mods are doing a great job, the only criticism I have is that they let people double post and waste up space on the page instead of deleting the message and banning the user who is clearly just trying to get his post count up.

It really annoys me to read messages like mine them.

Other than that keep up the good work.

Captain Havoc

Beasty wrote: »

Same as elsewhere on boards - Vlad gets the coke, the Captain gets the hookers and I get sweet FA ....

Unfortunately being a good catholic boy (no sex before marriage) means I just end up having tea and cake with them.

Doctor Bob

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Unfortunately being a good catholic boy (no sex before marriage) means I just end up having tea and cake with them.

Life presents you with free cake, and you say 'unfortunately'?

I hear there are modding vacancies in AH- that place might be better suited to a man with your priorities. :pac:

petethedrummer

I am on the side of no discussion in the fleets thread. Its nice to just wheel down through a thread that is straight to the point. I had a couple of questions for different people based on what I saw in the thread, all resolved via pm. There was no need to clog the thread with dull questions.

Someone could open a fleets thread with added discussion if they want to talk.

I have no problems with the modding in general. I don't find the tone condescending. Unlike some other boards forums, the mods here seem like they've actually experienced human interaction at some point in their life.

There must be one unifying solution to the new bike threads though. I don't know what it is, but I will endeavour to find the answer. That flow chart somebody did was good.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

There must be one unifying solution to the new bike threads though. I don't know what it is, but I will endeavour to find the answer. That flow chart somebody did was good.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60515577&postcount=7

Beasty

petethedrummer wrote: »

the mods here seem like they've actually experienced human interaction at some point in their life.

Yeah - for me it was at the Swords League race on Wednesday;)

petethedrummer

Beasty wrote: »

Yeah - for me it was at the Swords League race on Wednesday;)

I read that, unfortunately your modding powers begin and end here.:pac:

Lusk Doyle

petethedrummer wrote: »

I read that, unfortunately your modding powers begin and end here.:pac:

I'll put beasty forward for race moderator for next years club league at the agm :eek:

Lemag

Suggestion - 'bargain alerts' megathread