Would you continue to pay CM?

LegacyUser

I have a bit of an issue that I'd appreciate some opinions on thanks.

My youngest child goes to a childminder after school each day (he's 11) and has been there for over 2yrs now - he's very happy with her, as am I with the service she provides and the cost and so on.

My boy and her boy are now best pals and do everything together and I am very happy that my son has such a great friend.

My son is the youngest and there's a big gap with him and his next sibling, so it really suits everyone that he has this boy, who has become like a brother to him.

so his friend spends most weekends in our home, on trips with us, comes to the shops, has sleepovers and also comes in most evenings when we're home from work. I feed him and include him in all our activities and am even bringing him on a weekend away with us before the summer hols end.

My husband pointed out that we are providing the same, if not more of a 'service' to our childminder in minding and feeding her child as she does for us, and yet, we pay her. He suggested I chat with her and suggest that we agree that we shouldn't pay her for 'minding' our child when her child spends most of his spare time with us and have a 'tit-for-tat' situation, rather than 'employing' her to mind our son....

I don't want to cause any issues between both families and was wondering what others thoughts are on this before I decide whether to broach the subject with her?

ash23

I think you hired her to do a job and the side result of that was that her son and your son became friends.
If you choose to have the boy over to the extent that you do, that's your own personal choice. You wouldn't expect to be paid for choosing to involve your sons friend in your life to such an extent.

You need to separate the issues. They are not related really. You hired her to mind your son. She does and she should be paid at the rate that was agreed.

If you don't want to have her son over to such an extent, then don't.

If you choose to broach it with her you may lose her as your minder. She might still have your son over but not necessarily at the times that suit you in terms of working. At the moment she is obliged to have him at set times. If she weren't being paid, she wouldn't be.

My daughters friends basically live in my house (joys of having an only child!) but it's on my terms and I can send them home whenever I like or not have them in whenever it's inconvenient. Minding a child is different as I would have to have them there no matter what was going on.

kildare.17hmr

completely agree wit above

LegacyUser

op here. I disagree that it's separate - there are times when I am minding the child. She often pops to the shops or goes into town and asks if she can leave him here - so I am actually 'minding' him some of the time. And alot of the sleepovers are babysitting - she asks if he can stay because she's going out.

So it's not completely seperate - there are times, I'd say about 40% of the time he is with us, that I am minding him because she has asked me to.

But it's not structured in the way that my childminding arrangement is - for example, she has a wedding on Saturday and I'm minding him for the full day and overnight - he would probably be in our house most of the time anyway, and come with us if we go out etc, but she has asked me to mind him while she goes to the wedding.

Shelli2

Are there other siblings in the house that would help out? Like if you decided to stop paying the minder, and one day she said she couldnt have the boy, would there be a brother or sister to be in the house with him, or at 11 is he ok to be on his own for a few hours?

LegacyUser

I still need a minder for him for at least another year - he's still in primary school and she collects him for me (there's no public transport from school to where we live, although I could probably get another parent to drop him home)...
Unfortunately, his sister is 20 and in work until after 6, like myself and my husband, so I need someone to watch him for a couple of hours until we are all home. When he starts secondary school (next Sept), it's much closer to home and as he won't be home until after 4pm, I'd feel much more confident leaving him alone for an hour until we get home as he'll be 13 by that point....and there are alot of after-school activities that he will probably do anyway in secondary school..
I should probably have added that money is very tight for us at the moment and we have been looking at ways to cut our outgoings - this was my husbands first suggestion...

ash23

Again though, if she asks you as a favour to occasionally have the child while she is away, then you wouldn't usually expect to be paid for that once they weren't pulling the p1ss.

I mind my friends kids on occasion and vice versa but not as a regular obligation kind of thing.

In your situation if you asked her to mind him in the evening while you went to the shop, or at the weekend for a wedding, she shouldn't expect to be paid as you return the favour.
But in terms of the original agreement of afterschoold care which is structured and obligatory, she is your childminder and should be paid.

If you feel you are getting a raw deal then you can broach it but I doubt she'd agree to stop getting paid for the afterschool minding.
If you feel taken advantage of then it's very easy to just start saying no when she asks you to have her son at weekends etc. Or alternatively, start asking her to have your son as a favour to you when you need a night out.

LegacyUser

I am a bit irked by your tone if you don't mind me saying. Are you a childminder yourself?

The childminding agreement isn't 'obligatory' as you say, I'm paying her cash in hand and can move to another facility anytime I choose!

I don't need her to mind my son anytime outside the hours we are all in work - there are enough people in the house to watch him when we go out - although nights out are few and far between these days.

I don't want to stop the child coming with us, or coming to our house - he's a dote - that's not really my point.

My point is that we are 'minding' her child for almost the same time as she is minding our child, yet we pay her for it.

January

Remember also that while you may be struggling to pay bills, she may be too and this bit of extra money for minding your child while you work (which is what she's doing) may be really important to her. I think minding her child at the weekend the odd time is completely different and I'm sure she'd do that for you too if you asked her, for free. You choose to include her child in your activities at the weekend. You don't have to.

January

unregistered wrote: »

I am a bit irked by your tone if you don't mind me saying. Are you a childminder yourself?

The childminding agreement isn't 'obligatory' as you say, I'm paying her cash in hand and can move to another facility anytime I choose!

I don't need her to mind my son anytime outside the hours we are all in work - there are enough people in the house to watch him when we go out - although nights out are few and far between these days.

I don't want to stop the child coming with us, or coming to our house - he's a dote - that's not really my point.

My point is that we are 'minding' her child for almost the same time as she is minding our child, yet we pay her for it.

Then move to a different childminder if it's bothering you that much... seriously, you came her looking for other peoples opinions, just because they don't suit you don't lash out at other people.

Daisy M

Honestly I didnt see any tone in ash23s reply all I read was helpful advice.
Is the minder caring for him during the summer will you need her for next summer? My advice would be to bite your tongue its only for one more year. Good friends are hard to come by and any actions on your part may harm the boys friendship longterm. The difference between you caring for this ladies son and her caring for yours is you need her, you are not available to mind him during the hours she does. While there is nothing to stop her bringing him to the shops with her she doesnt normally need you to have him sleep over. Her son been at your house suits you as well as her, as he is keeping your son entertained. You mention that the childminding agreement isnt obligatory and you can choose to move him, what would that achieve? You would still be paying a childminder and your sons friend would still be visiting. Is it that you would in that case no longer feel that this lady was taking advantage of you. Btw if I was this lady I wouldnt charge if my child was in your house as much as you say, there again I wouldnt allow my kids to spend so much time in someone elses house either. Its up to me and my husband to bring our kids on the MAJORITY of their days out and activities not other people.

ash23

There was no 'tone' in my posts. And no, i'm not a childminder. I'm a working parent who has used childcare for the last 7 years.
When I mentioned 'obligation' what I meant was that as your paid childminder she is obliged to have your son at the times you request. She is paid to be there at that time.
If you are not paying her then she doesn't have to take him. She may be busy, may have plans or may just not feel up to having him on a particular day.

Or she may need the money and take on another child whose parents do pay and may not be able to have your son over aswell.

You can of course move your son but you'd be paying someone else anyway and not saving money so that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face really.

Its another year, personally I'd keep him where he is and continue paying.

Gru

i think it's nice your son has made a friend out of this childminder agreement, you minding her child or feeding him as much as her is not the same because she has to do it its her job, where you are doing it of your own free will.

essentially you need her and pay her for this, she doesn't need you.

planetX

Same as other posters - you are paying her for being available at those hours. If you go to her and suggest not paying, and making it a tit for tat arrangement, you might find plenty of days where she has something better to do and you'll have to leave work.

iguana

ash23 wrote: »

Or she may need the money and take on another child whose parents do pay and may not be able to have your son over aswell.

I suspect this is exactly what would happen. Being a childminder is this woman's job. If she loses that income the odds are she will have to look for a way to replace it, either by taking on another child or some other type of work. This will mean that she can't look after your son any more and you will just have to pay someone else. You will be in the same boat and your son will be disrupted and miss his friend. In fact I doubt that your son's friendship will continue as it is if you continue on down this route.

LittleBook

My son is the youngest and there's a big gap with him and his next sibling, so it really suits everyone that he has this boy, who has become like a brother to him.

You're doing nothing for her that wouldn't be normal in the course of any two children's friendship. Everyone does the kind of thing you do, it's just in your case your son's best friend happens to be the son of your childminder.

The two completely separate things are your childminding arrangements and your son's friendship. Keep them separate and don't do any "minding" that you don't want to.

You and your son are so lucky that he has such a friendship, don't mix it up with business.

Frank Black

I’d agree with the vast majority of the responses, but would add if it's your husband that feels you should not be paying the childminder as her child spends as much time in your house then tell him to have the ‘awkward’ chat with your childminder.
My guess is he won’t be as keen on the idea.

reeta

When I started reading this I thought you were completely wrong, but having read your replies began to see your side. I have been a minder and have used a minder so know both sides of the coin !!! Firstly you are lucky your son has made a best friend there, but I really think your minder is taking advantage of you ! When I minded children they also became my kids good friends and when the parents came to collect one or two of the kids would stay on to play with my kids. O several occasion of the years the parents asked me to mind them overnight and they paid !! You cannot say it to your minder as I guarantee you you will lose her. I really feel she is taking you for granted though as you need to stop that by not being available to mind her child all the time. On another note your son needs to interact with other children his age not just your childminders son, if they fall out (rare enought with boys) it can have devastating results!!!

LegacyUser

Thanks for the response.

I have to disagree with you though when some of you say that I need to keep the two things separate - I don't believe they are separate at all. I am minding her child almost as much as she minds mine (whether by default, or not) - she is not a registered creche or childminder - she is a good neighbour who minds a few older kids in our estate and as a mother herself, I trust her to do so.

I do know how lucky my son is to have this lad as his best friend (and vice versa) - we live in the same estate as the minder, which is why they see so much of each other also.

I do think she is taking advantage of us completely but I am reluctant to stop allowing the boy into our home as he has become like part of the family (it's not about the boy at all)...
I don't think there is anything I can do with this situation without an inevitable fall-out with her, so I'm doing nothing. I'll suck it up for one more year until I won't need her next September.
Thanks for your comments, they were appreciated.

LittleBook

reeta wrote: »

I really think your minder is taking advantage of you !

The childminder is not "taking" anything that the OP isn't prepared to give.

1. There is a formal child-minding arrangement. Within those hours the relationship between the two is that of employer and employee.

2. Outside of those hours, an exceptionally good and strong friendship has developed between two children. Everything that happens in this context is between two parents facilitating the friendship between their children, a friendship that will hopefully last well after the child-minding arrangement has ended.

OP if you feel in this second context that you are doing all the giving and she is doing all the taking, then you can easily redress that balance without having any affect on your relationship with your childminder.

But I suspect (being the parent of an only child myself) the visits and trips and sleepovers outside of "business hours" suit you as much as they suit her.

Really this is about money. You want to turn your current circumstances into a quid pro quo arrangement so you need to remember that if you weren't paying her, you'd still have to pay someone else.

up for anything

unregistered wrote: »

The childminding agreement isn't 'obligatory' as you say, I'm paying her cash in hand and can move to another facility anytime I choose!

My point is that we are 'minding' her child for almost the same time as she is minding our child, yet we pay her for it.

Your tone is a bit irk-provoking too. Move the child to another facility if this is getting on your nerves and then cut down the time your son spends with her son. Easy. I would conjecture from your OP that you are desperate to convince yourself that your husband is right and working yourself up in an effort to get up the nerve to tackle her.

We moved house last February twelve months and two of my sons found friends close by. The third very downcast as he had nobody nearby by until just before the summer when I did a friend a favour and had her boy who is in the class above my son over one evening while she went out. They discovered that evening that they got on really well and had the same sense of humour. Since then her boy has been over here every waking hour. My friend gets worried that she is taking advantage of me and helps out with treats and feeding mine sometimes, because my house is where they prefer to play. Whenever I get to the end of my rope at having gained what seems like an adoptive son I cast my mind back to the time when my lad was at a loose end and getting depressed and I was desperate for him to find a friend close by. Sometimes as a parent you have to make a choice and mine is to welcome him into my home without reservation or resentment while retaining the right to tell him to feck off home sometimes.

Tayla

I can see where you're coming from OP.

Does she ever mind your son on unpaid time? If your son happened to be hanging out there one evening instead of hanging out with his friend in your home then would she charge you extra?

LegacyUser

up for anything wrote: »

Your tone is a bit irk-provoking too. Move the child to another facility if this is getting on your nerves and then cut down the time your son spends with her son. Easy. I would conjecture from your OP that you are desperate to convince yourself that your husband is right and working yourself up in an effort to get up the nerve to tackle her.

We moved house last February twelve months and two of my sons found friends close by. The third very downcast as he had nobody nearby by until just before the summer when I did a friend a favour and had her boy who is in the class above my son over one evening while she went out. They discovered that evening that they got on really well and had the same sense of humour. Since then her boy has been over here every waking hour. My friend gets worried that she is taking advantage of me and helps out with treats and feeding mine sometimes, because my house is where they prefer to play. Whenever I get to the end of my rope at having gained what seems like an adoptive son I cast my mind back to the time when my lad was at a loose end and getting depressed and I was desperate for him to find a friend close by. Sometimes as a parent you have to make a choice and mine is to welcome him into my home without reservation or resentment while retaining the right to tell him to feck off home sometimes.

OP here. I can see that our situations are similar BUT for the fact that you aren't paying that childs mother 125euro a week to mind your child during the day.

Abi

OP, I'd agree with most of the other comments here. Things have gotten a bit sloppy, but you have to bear some of that responsibility yourself. You orginally started out with a business arrangement, the complication arose when the boys became friends. It's not like she's trying to pull a fast one on you.

You said that she asks you to mind her boy over night, and for this wedding, but I'm pretty sure if there was something you wanted to go to in the evening or to be away over the weekend, she would do the same for you, but you choose not to. You also choose to cook for him, and take him with you on family activities and weekends - shes not asking you to do that.

I think that yourself and your husband are going to have to come up with some other way to cut down expenditure, because going after a reliable minder you've had for years is not the way to go about it.

If you think you can't shake the feeling that you're being wronged, I suggest changing minders, as you'll become just more and more bitter over it all. I think it would be silly though, as you have someone you can rely on, and so close to home too.

Big Bag of Chips

You have a business agreement with this woman. Outside of that, your children have become friends.

You mind him for her - by your own choosing occasionally when she asks, going to the shop, over night for a wedding etc. I don't think that "minding" time would add up equally on a weekly basis to when she minds your son?

Seperate to that, your boys are friends, and her son comes to play in your house. You are not "minding" him then - he is playing with your son. You have the option of telling him to go home!

You also have the option of telling her it doesn't suit you to mind him when she goes to the shops - or a wedding etc.

We were often sent home from friend's houses as kids when we outstayed our welcome. It didn't bother us, and it never damaged our friendships. Kids accept things alot quicker and easier than adults. If you don't want him in your house when you get back from work and are trying to sort dinner etc.. send him home. Stop feeding him in the evenings. If it's dinner time in your house.. send him home, telling him it's dinner time and your son will be out when you're finished. Make them play outside more rather than in your house all the time.

I don't think you can ask that you stop paying her. She's your childminder. You're not hers.