Planning Architect Dublin/Neighbours Extension

conjon

Hi All,

I'm hoping that someone might be able to recommend a planning architect based in Lucan/Dublin, and what the costs would be in terms of getting one out to our house?

We found out last night that our neighbours are planning to build an extension on to their house, and have the builders in from next Wednesday. Our neighbours had told us earlier this summer that they might be building an extension, but heard nothing further on it until last night (and even then, the missus was in asking about the wodden panels between the houses). We're a middle house and our kitchen/dinning room faces onto our garden which is roughly 36 feet long by 18 wide. The extension that our neighbours are planning is going to go out roughly 18 feet ie) half the length of our garden. We were on to the Planning Dept this morning and appartently you can build an extension without planning permission up to 40 square metres as long as you're left with a 25 squre metre garden. This is going to greatly impact the resale value of our house. What has really annoyed us is that at no stage were we consulted about their plans, extension size etc. Our neighbours on the other side, also have an extension, but it's only half the size of what this crowd are planning. In addition we spent the bones of 1.5k this year on getting the garden right in terms of new plants, garden furniture etc, and this will now go to waste. The missus is at home in floods of tears.

Any assistance on this would be appreciated, as we're up against the wire on this. Once the builders start next week, I don't believe we have any come back. From speaking to the Planning Dept this morning, they recommended that we get a planning architect out to look at it.


Thanks in advance,
Conor.

sydthebeat

conjon wrote: »

1. We were on to the Planning Dept this morning and appartently you can build an extension without planning permission up to 40 square metres as long as you're left with a 25 squre metre garden.

Correct. This is what is consider acceptable by planning law to be of such small scale as NOT to impinge on neighbouring properties.

conjon wrote: »

2. This is going to greatly impact the resale value of our house.

Says who??? Sorry but that is a non argument. Anyone can built exempt extensions therefore the status quo exists whether the adjoining property has an extension or not. Anyone who has told you it will reduce the resale value of your house is wrong.

conjon wrote: »

. In addition we spent the bones of 1.5k this year on getting the garden right in terms of new plants, garden furniture etc, and this will now go to waste.

why do you think this? If the neighbour is building the full 40 sq m of a single storey extension, how does it impact on your garden? Even if the adjoining garden is southerly to you, the new extension will offer very little shadow in excess of what already exists from the boundary wall. In mid summer the noon sun is approx 60 degrees to the horizon.

conjon wrote: »

From speaking to the Planning Dept this morning, they recommended that we get a planning architect out to look at it.
.

Once the neighbours are complying will all the conditions of "exempted development" see here then theres nothing you can do. They are within their rights. Theres very little an architect can do at this stage other than reinforce that the conditions are being met... the space separation can be measured from the foundations.... other factors wont be measurable until near the end of the build.

BryanF

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#sched2

also see schedule 5 regarding boundary walls and their restricted height of 2m.

then politely ask your neighbours for the proposed plans/elevation/sections and what height the wall will be at your boundary. also what the finish will be (ie plaster painted), what happens to the guttering, drainage and if there is any proposed overhang.

only then will you have enough for a Architect or a planning consultant to make a case

DOCARCH

Hi Conor

I'm afraid it sounds like you may have to live with it. It sounds like they are entitled to build their extension as an exempt devlopment, i.e. without planning permission.

If you do not have a copy of their plans and the extension is exempt (i.e. there are no plans available online) it would be impossible to get an architcet (or other) comment on what they are doing until it is actually done or under construction.

Without access to their site/garden it will also be difficult for somebody on your behalf to check that the extension being built complies with the exempted development regulations.

One thing to keep an eye on is that they build inside their own boundary walls/fences and do not infringe your property/boundaries (without your consent).

If you really are worried about what they are doing during construction you can contact the Enforcement Section in the Council and they would send out an inspector to see what they are building and confirm whether or not what they are building is exempt from planning, but again, this can pretty much only be done when the work is almost complete.

conjon

Guys,

Thanks for the responses.

Syd, if I could address a couple of your responses:

Resale value - This is personal opinion. I hear what you're saying, but once this is done the only thing you'll see looking out the right of our kitchen window will be this extension. Whilst it's a single storey extension, it will be about 15 foot high.

Garden - we think it will impact from an aesthetic perspective. Like an extension 18 foot long, by about 15 foot high will have an impact.

Interestingly, the missus went in to ask for a copy of the plans this morning and was told that they didn't have any. Can they get away with this?

Dorach, we spoke to an architect in Lucan this morning, and as you've mentioned, we can send our observations in and get an inspector out. Do you know how long this would take to organise? If they're starting next Wednesday, that doesn't leave us with a lot of time. The guy I spoke to this morning was of the opinion that something being sent on architects headed paper would add some weight to the letter.

I hear what you all are saying in terms of the legislation and their rights, but we do honestly think this does impact our house. They've been our neighbours for about 9 years now and we've never had any issues, but this is something we do think we need to fight.

Thanks again to everyone for the responses.
Conor.

DOCARCH

conjon wrote: »

Dorach, we spoke to an architect in Lucan this morning, and as you've mentioned, we can send our observations in and get an inspector out. Do you know how long this would take to organise? If they're starting next Wednesday, that doesn't leave us with a lot of time. The guy I spoke to this morning was of the opinion that something being sent on architects headed paper would add some weight to the letter.

The problem is that something has to be there/built for an inspector to assess. This is not a planning/planning appeal process. There is no mechanism for an inspector to go in and assess their plans (if they have any at all). There is no requirement for them to have plans (as it is being constructed as an exempt development). The plans could well be in the builders head!

sydthebeat

conjon,

if what you are saying is correct, then what your neighbours are building is not exempt.

1. Are they removing the existing boundary wall? If so, they need your permission as you own half of it. If not, they must ensure that they do not inhibt the stability of the party wall, usually meaning the new wall will be 600mm (2') away from the party wall.

2. is this flat roofed, or pitched?

3. As DOCARCH says, there doesnt actually have to be plans to see. they do however have to ensure compliance with building regulations so the building control section could ask them for a copy of plans.

BryanF

conjon wrote: »

Resale value - This is personal opinion. I hear what you're saying, but once this is done the only thing you'll see looking out the right of our kitchen window will be this extension. Whilst it's a single storey extension, it will be about 15 foot high.

the resale depends on how you sell it.. if the auctioneer was to say potential to extent as there is precedent.. then this may increase the resale sale value

how do you know the extension will be 15ft?

conjon

Syd,

In relation to your response:

1. Boundary wall - no they're planning to build right up to it. I didn't realise that they have to be 2 foot away from it. I'll keep an eye on this.

2. The roof from what I understand will be your standard pitched roof. From what we were told last night, the top of it will be horizontal to the window ledge from our bedroom window (which is above the kitchen). By my own estimate roughly 15 foot high all in. Again I'm basing this on what we were told last night.

Bryan,

Again going on what we were told last night an by measuring our own garden, it'll be about 18 foot long and 15 high.

Not too go off topic here, but if we were to send a letter ourselves on this, is this something we should be doing now? Do we simply list our concerns (ie impact on garden, no plans etc), and then request that an inspector calls out to view the work?


Thanks again to everyone for taking the time out to respond.

Conor.

sydthebeat

conjon wrote: »

Syd,

In relation to your response:

1. Boundary wall - no they're planning to build right up to it. I didn't realise that they have to be 2 foot away from it. I'll keep an eye on this.

2. The roof from what I understand will be your standard pitched roof. From what we were told last night, the top of it will be horizontal to the window ledge from our bedroom window (which is above the kitchen). By my own estimate roughly 15 foot high all in. Again I'm basing this on what we were told last night.

Bryan,

Again going on what we were told last night an by measuring our own garden, it'll be about 18 foot long and 15 high.

Not too go off topic here, but if we were to send a letter ourselves on this, is this something we should be doing now? Do we simply list our concerns (ie impact on garden, no plans etc), and then request that an inspector calls out to view the work?


Thanks again to everyone for taking the time out to respond.

Conor.

conor, they dont have to be 2' away, but thats usually the distance needed for workability... some one will have to get in and render the wall and this requires space. ask them how they are weathering this gap between the boundary wall and the extension. also, no part of their extension can overhang into your property... that includes gutters.
so assuming the gutter is 100m, the fascia board is 25mm and the eaves is a typical 200mm.. thats at least 325mm to the face of the wall, or 1 foot 1 inch in your language. in my opinion that depth is unworkable.

do you know what the orientation of this extension is... at 12:00 noon where is the sun in relation to your kitchen window?

regards the letter, hang on.

you really dont want to be starting a fight here if youve no right to fight in the first place. Id stay as civil as possible with your neighbours and ask them if they are fully aware of the conditions they must meet in order to be exempt. Id even provide them with a copy of the pdf i linked to above.
Tell them that its risky proceeding without any design drawings or professional input as worse case scenario, if they are not exempt, they could have to take the whole lot down. If they insist on not getting professional input explain to them that then you'll have option but to notify the councils enforcement section of the extension and you'll be asking them to assess whether its exempt or not.

If they are not getting drawings done and not getting a professional to inspect the build, then wait your time until the roof is on. thats the point at which it will be obvious if all conditions are met or not (all external finishes should match the existing dwelling).

but again, i urge you not to start bad feelings at this stage. Your neighbours are well within their rights to build an exempted extension, as are you.

BryanF

don't list a load of (what will be considered) hearsay. you can only deal in facts. unfortunately without plans your in a difficult position until its built. what syd said regarding building control sounds like your best bet. maybe contact them in writing and explain your concern over 15ft high wall using existing boundary. (I'd send any correspondence by registered post)

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

conjon,

if what you are saying is correct, then what your neighbours are building is not exempt.

1. Are they removing the existing boundary wall? If so, they need your permission as you own half of it. If not, they must ensure that they do not inhibt the stability of the party wall, usually meaning the new wall will be 600mm (2') away from the party wall.

can't agree with the above, the last 5 I did were up to the boundary wall, underpinned the boundary while excavating foundations. Steel, or iron on top of wall, flush, so just a facing of pvc, and then gutter, so the overhang is just the 130mm of gutter, smaller available.

We usually get permission to stand next door, to render the wall, can't see that in this case, and I have never had a problem with Certs of Compliance, Exemption, etc. So to give the impression that you have to stay 2' inside is in my view misleading, however I will bend to your experience if you post a link.

conjon

Syd,

In terms of the sun, when you're looking out the back, the sun comes from the left in the morning. I'm not too sure where it's at come 12 noon, but I will ask the missus to check tomorrow. A friend made an interesting point to the extent that the extension could be blocking the sunlight coming in through our kitchen window. I'll get up early on Saturday myself and check all of this. Like tbh, we haven't had 1 argument with either of our neighbours in all the time they've been there. 9 years on 1 side, and 10 years on the other. We tend to bite our lips.. The builders will certainly have to come into our garden to plaster the wall once it's up.

Just so that I'm clear and so that there's no misunderstandings, when I mentioned 15 foot, this would be at the top of the roof, not the wall.

I will check all of this on Saturday morning and will post again once I've this checked.

Cheers,
Conor.

martinn123

Conor, I do not want to sound harsh, but there may be little you can do here.

Provided the extention is constructed on your neighbours property, i.e not on the boundary, and provided its Exempt, they have every right to proceed.

I was in a mid terrace house recently and neighbours on both sides have extentions, so the garden I was in was like a tunnel.

Suppose you realise if you were planning the extention, your neighbour could not object. I know that does not help.

O.K there are various things you can check, but if its OK its OK, sorry.

Don't get your hopes up, with questions on the direction of the Sun, rendering of the walls, height of the new wall etc, if its designed correctly, it will proceed.

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

So to give the impression that you have to stay 2' inside is in my view misleading, however I will bend to your experience if you post a link.

:rolleyes:

sydthebeat wrote: »

conor, they dont have to be 2' away,

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt that you didnt read my last post... but if you did i'll question your comprehension of what i posted.

You go on to state what you would do 'with' permission from the adjoining owner... which in this case is obviously not forth coming.. so why did you feel the need to question what i posted re workability with a method of work that cant possibly be enacted.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

:rolleyes:



Ill give you the benefit of the doubt that you didnt read my last post... but if you did i'll question your comprehension of what i posted.

You go on to state what you would do 'with' permission from the adjoining owner... which in this case is obviously not forth coming.. so why did you feel the need to question what i posted re workability with a method of work that cant possibly be enacted.

I'll take the benefit of the doubt.....please.

Bullseye1

It's a fault in the exempted regulations. Even though you maybe exempted from applying for planning permission it should have been necessary to produce some drawings showing the exempted structure and lodged with the planning authority for neighbours to view. Especially in built up urban areas where extensions are built in close proximity to boundaries. There are restrictions on exemptions including distances of windows to boundaries.

Mellor

conjon wrote: »

Syd,

In terms of the sun, when you're looking out the back, the sun comes from the left in the morning. I'm not too sure where it's at come 12 noon, but I will ask the missus to check tomorrow.

If it rises to the left, that means that way is east, then it sets to the right and when you are looking out the backgarden you are facing south. This means that when the sun is its highest/strongest, it is coming into your back garden from the rear. Your neighbours will have no impact on mid-day. They may block some of the early morning, or evening sun 9depending on what side they are on. But this is no an issue imo.

The builders will certainly have to come into our garden to plaster the wall once it's up.

TBH, that's up to you. It's your garden, and you can refuse access. But I'd really really advise against preventing them enter. It's very petty and it you do a search on the forum, you'll see plenty of threads where a neighbours refused access. They aren't looked upon very kindly.

Just so that I'm clear and so that there's no misunderstandings, when I mentioned 15 foot, this would be at the top of the roof, not the wall.

I assume it was that, a very rough sketch suggests the roof will have a 32degree pitch, quite low and certainly won't be towering over you like a 15ft high wall. The roof won't even be visible unless you are greater than 6 foot away.


I happen to know your area quite well, and the fact that you mentioned mid-terrace narrows it down a lot. If you wish, PM be the name of the area and I might be able to offer more specific advice, based on extensions I have done in the area.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

It's a fault in the exempted regulations. Even though you maybe exempted from applying for planning permission it should have been necessary to produce some drawings showing the exempted structure and lodged with the planning authority for neighbours to view. Especially in built up urban areas where extensions are built in close proximity to boundaries. There are restrictions on exemptions including distances of windows to boundaries.

I disagree completely. The reason for exempt regulations is to prevent trivial matters seeking planning. Requiring plans to be lodged to the council is wasting everyones time. People may wish to give their neighbours a copy of plans out of respect, but forcing them to do so is pointless. Especially when they is nothing the neighbours can do if its exempt development.

conjon

Guys,

Thanks again for the responses.

Martin, I think you've hit the nail on the head when you mentioned shoe boxes. We're both from the country, and there is certainly an element of being shoe boxed on either side.

Mellor, thanks very much for your offer.

We've calmed down a bit over the last 24 hours on this. Having said that I am determined to make sure this is done right and within the legislation. There was certainly an element of frustration in my responses yesterday as I know if we were building an extension, we would certainly have given either side of us notice, and indeed an idea of what was being planned. As I mentioned, we only found out about it when the missus called in to enquire whether we could change the wodden panels. Each to their own I suppose.

I'm sounding like a broken record at this stage, but genuine thanks to everyone whom took the time out to respond and indeed read my rant.

I will be keeping a close eye on this over the next couple of weeks, and will post again if I have any questions.

Best,
Conor.

sinnerboy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

It's a fault in the exempted regulations. Even though you maybe exempted from applying for planning permission it should have been necessary to produce some drawings showing the exempted structure and lodged with the planning authority for neighbours to view. Especially in built up urban areas where extensions are built in close proximity to boundaries. There are restrictions on exemptions including distances of windows to boundaries.

I have to say I agree with this sentiment. I would like to see the exempted development regulations curtailed in high density urban areas . The "up" side of the status quo is that small works like these are taken out of the planning system to "free it up". The downside / price for this is that in cases like this the OP rightly feels disenfranchised. ( Yes legally / technically they are not but that's not how it feels).

If works like these were put through on open process ( Planing Permission ) where adjoining owners feel they have input - and even if in their eyes the input is ultimately not successful - some consolation can be drawn from the fact that at least they had a voice.

True story - about 15 years ago a client asked me to lodge a retention application for an almost completed exempt development. The neighbor reported the works to enforcement who "suggested" that a retention application would be granted if applied for . ( I'm not joking ) .

My advice was not to seek permission when you don't have to . The client considered my advice but instructed me to prepare the application anyway.
The neighbor , having provoked the application in the first place , did not even send in an objection during planning. They got along fine again after a period I believe.

In my opinion the exempt development regulations are an attempt to provide a one size fits all solution . But a 40m2 rear extension in large suburban site or certainly in rural site has no where near the impact on residential amenity of neighbors than it does in tight urban areas. Like in the case of the OP ' looking out into a tunnel is right. In this context the impact of exempted development can be far from trivial.

Many many of our Tiger squeeze-as-many-of-them-you-can onto-the-site estates were granted permissions which contained a condition with words to the affect that no exempt development extensions would be permitted which to my mind underlines this point.

conjon I do feel for you in this situation but as others have said your options are somewhat limited.

conjon

Sinnerboy,

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments...we're case in point. Caught in a situation where's there little we can do and we've no recourse.

If I could ask one final question. We do think that this extension will block the sublight coming into our kitchen window. Is this something we can object to?

Many thanks,
Conor

BryanF

conjon, what heights your existing boundary wall/ hedge/ foliage ? then ask yourself is it going to be much more than it is currently

Mellor

Right to sunlight isn't a planning matter. Without seeing plans, i can't imagine it Will make a huge difference

conjon

Mellor/Bryan

My genuine apologies for the delay in getting back to you, I've been away for the last couple of days. In terms of our kitchen window, the boundary wall is approx 6 1/2 foot high and runs for the first ten feet or so between the houses. Our kitchen window is approx 3 foot from the boundary wall and measures 3'10 by 3'8. From the ground, it's about 4' to the bottom of the window. I checked on Saturday morning and at 9am we have the sun directly in front of us. At that stage, Therefore, I think that any sun coming into the kitchen would be impacted before 9.

Our neighbours have delightfully decided to go away until Wednesday till the builders are due to start. My wife has already dropped hints about moving and we've an estate agent coming out to view the house on Thursday. It will be interesting to get a before and after extension valuation.

Thanks again
Conor.

martinn123

sinnerboy wrote: »

Many many of our Tiger squeeze-as-many-of-them-you-can onto-the-site estates were granted permissions which contained a condition with words to the affect that no exempt development extensions would be permitted which to my mind underlines this point.

Any chance you could provide more info. on this. If I follow you, you are saying in certain Planning Permissions, no exempted developments are permitted. How would that impact, on a typical less than 40 SqM extention. Indeed how would you know if such a condition exists, and how would it be inforced.

Or am I just reading you wrong.
Thanks

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Any chance you could provide more info. on this. If I follow you, you are saying in certain Planning Permissions, no exempted developments are permitted. How would that impact, on a typical less than 40 SqM extention. Indeed how would you know if such a condition exists, and how would it be inforced.

Or am I just reading you wrong.
Thanks

your reading correct

it became more common towards the height of the madness for planners to include a condition into the main planning permission for the development that no development should take place even if it satisfies the conditions to be exempt. So basically, 'exempted development' doesnt exist on these sites. It may have been included in say, a development wth open plan front lawns to stop one house from 'walling in' their garden and taking the look off the estate.

How it would be enforced is the same for any unauthorised development.

sinnerboy

martinn123 wrote: »

If I follow you, you are saying in certain Planning Permissions, no exempted developments are permitted.

yes

martinn123 wrote: »

How would that impact, on a typical less than 40 SqM extention. Indeed how would you know if such a condition exists, and how would it be inforced.

All extensions would require permission in these cases.

You would know by checking on the public records what conditions applied to the grant of permission for a given estate. I have seen a "no exempt development " condition attached to a one off house where the house was was located beside a former end of terrace with large side garden. The condition was explicit saying something like " no extension or other site development including shed , dog box , pet coop , canopy or the like shall be constructed without seeking permission" .

As Syd says enforcement would apply in such cases same as all other cases. Usually starts with a call to the local authority from a pee'd off neighbor.

galwaytt

sydthebeat wrote: »

it became more common towards the height of the madness for planners to include a condition into the main planning permission for the development that no development should take place even if it satisfies the conditions to be exempt. So basically, 'exempted development' doesnt exist on these sites. It may have been included in say, a development wth open plan front lawns to stop one house from 'walling in' their garden and taking the look off the estate.

How it would be enforced is the same for any unauthorised development.

...interesting, haven't come across that before......but i'd see some problems: as you say, enforcement is but one.

The other, larger issue, is that I would argue such a condition is in breach of the Planning Act, and the Planning Act would carry the weight of Law. Ergo, it would take precedent, and enforcement would become irrelevent. It's just waiting for the 1st guy to test it in court, which happens sooner or later.

You wonder really what sort of power trip planner's and pre-planner's are on.........

Merch

OP why are you engaging the services of an architect? not sure what they can do for you that the SDCC cant? why dont you go to the SDCC instead.
I'd also say, if the OP refuses access to their garden, that really is their business and it doesnt matter what people think of anyone that does that, it's their property, but for the sake of harmony it might not be a good idea, also it might mean you have to look at an unfinished (not dashed or rendered wall)But, if the neighbours haven't considered people living around them before going ahead with their plans, that really is a bit selfish or foolish on their part as it can lead to disputes , and that should be looked down upon. I think it would have been advisable that they informed their neighbours of their plans really.

Personally my main concern would be that the work is done correctly and that it doesnt affect your building structure or quality of life (ie hours/days of work activity). I have seen one extension near me, and the quality/layout is atrocious, I believe they actually had plans and there were complaints that work was taking place at all hours and days.

Mellor

galwaytt wrote: »

...interesting, haven't come across that before......but i'd see some problems: as you say, enforcement is but one.

The other, larger issue, is that I would argue such a condition is in breach of the Planning Act, and the Planning Act would carry the weight of Law. Ergo, it would take precedent, and enforcement would become irrelevent. It's just waiting for the 1st guy to test it in court, which happens sooner or later.

You wonder really what sort of power trip planner's and pre-planner's are on.........

Not really, the planning act allows for such controls afaik. Appling for plannign would be cheaper and far more sensible that testing it in court.
Planners (pre-planners isn't a title btw) who but these controls in place were prob correct to do so, and not on a power trip imo.

sinnerboy

Mellor wrote: »

Planners (pre-planners isn't a title btw) who but these controls in place were prob correct to do so, and not on a power trip imo.

Naturally , I agree. One only has to walk around these squash-em-in estates to realize that every development potential has been squeezed out of the site already. People don't just need buildings to live in they need space around such buildings.