Should traffic laws be further enforced for cyclists?

Coronal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LftB-jywrXo&feature=channel_video_title
It seems cyclists have a bit of a bad reputation, though there are some good comments in the middle.

mcmoustache

Yes

Chips Lovell

Si

Cookie_Monster

traffic laws should be enforced for all, never mind just cyclists. Considering the lack of enforcement for even the most basic of things in general I wouldn't be going out of the way to target cyclists when people in cars and trucks who supposedly have a licence and have passed a test can't even abide by basic rules.

Chips Lovell

In fairness, the rate of lawbreaking amongst cyclists is vastly ahead of motorists. It's still a frequent occurance for me to cycle into work and not meet a single other cyclist who stops at the lights.

The guards do seem to have stepped up their efforts on this front. You'd never hear of cyclists getting a summons until very recently, when I've heard of a few. But idiotic cycling is still endemic.

dearg lady

Yeah, I think traffic laws should be better enforced fro all, BUT, I don't think it makes sense for cars and bicycles to adhere to the same rules. A set of sensible rules for cyclists should be implemented.

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness, the rate of lawbreaking amongst cyclists is vastly ahead of motorists. It's still a frequent occurance for me to cycle into work and not meet a single other cyclist who stops at the lights.

The guards do seem to have stepped up their efforts on this front. You'd never hear of cyclists getting a summons until very recently, when I've heard of a few. But idiotic cycling is still endemic.

At the risk of starting a long 'debate', but on my commute it's fairly even as to the amount of cyclists and cars who don't stop at a red light. There's always a number of cars that continue to cross junctions when the lights have turned red.

I'd be all for proper enforcing of the traffic laws amongst everyone

Coronal

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness, the rate of lawbreaking amongst cyclists is vastly ahead of motorists. It's still a frequent occurance for me to cycle into work and not meet a single other cyclist who stops at the lights.

The guards do seem to have stepped up their efforts on this front. You'd never hear of cyclists getting a summons until very recently, when I've heard of a few. But idiotic cycling is still endemic.

When I lived in Dublin, I saw a lot of RLJing, but not an awful lot. I also saw a lot of cars jumping lights, so it wasn't that outstanding for me.

Separate rules for both wouldn't really work out all that well, I don't think. The rules as they stand are good, though there could be a lot more provision for contra flow lanes in the one way systems. What annoyed me the most was the traffic signals, in that they weren't in any way optimised for cycling, unless you could remain at 50 km/hr the whole way through the city. It did get a lot nicer once the bus corridor at College Green was implemented.

Cookie_Monster

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness, the rate of lawbreaking amongst cyclists is vastly ahead of motorists.

I wouldn't say so.

Apart from RLJ, which is far more prevalent to cyclists. But there are huge number of motorists flouting laws constantly, be it speeding, on the phone, parking like an ass, dangerous overtaking and so on. There potentially far more consequence for motorists breaking laws too, a 1.5 ton car will do a lot more damage than a 100kg bike and rider...

monument

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness, the rate of lawbreaking amongst cyclists is vastly ahead of motorists. It's still a frequent occurance for me to cycle into work and not meet a single other cyclist who stops at the lights.

I'm not at all sure about that. All road users break different laws which they think they can get away with.

As on the 'Fed up as cyclists as public enemy #1' thread:

monument wrote: »

Study: More than 90% of drivers break speed limits

More than half of motorists admit to speeding regularly

53.8% of motorists surveyed admitted to using a handheld mobile phones

40.7% of those surveyed said they text while driving (same as last link)

What new city-centre speed limit? 97% of motorists ignore traffic law

Jaywalking is as bad but nobody bothers to do surveys about it...

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

At the risk of starting a long 'debate', but on my commute it's fairly even as to the amount of cyclists and cars who don't stop at a red light. There's always a number of cars that continue to cross junctions when the lights have turned red.

I see red light jumping by cars too. But never to the same extent. I've yet to stop at a junction and see every single car break the lights. Which is quite common with cyclists.

Chips Lovell

monument wrote: »

I'm not at all sure about that. All road users break different laws which they think they can get away with.

I've no doubt that plenty of motorists break road traffic laws. But not as a matter of course, which appears to be the case with the majority of commuter cyclists. If you routinely broke the speed limit you'd be off the road before long.

If we had cyclists who broke the odd red light in the same way that motorists took a phone call now and again we wouldn't be so despised.

monument

el tonto wrote: »

I see red light jumping by cars too. But never to the same extent. I've yet to stop at a junction and see every single car break the lights. Which is quite common with cyclists.

It's a lot easier for cyclists and pedestrians to break lights. As I said, different road users will break the laws they they'll get away with or those which they think nothing of etc.

TinyExplosions

el tonto wrote: »

I see red light jumping by cars too. But never to the same extent. I've yet to stop at a junction and see every single car break the lights. Which is quite common with cyclists.

This is true, but it's also a question of relative numbers. I would say that on my commute there are the same number of cars and cyclists breaking lights. Yes, that's 99% of riders and 1% of traffic, but I think it should all be clamped down on

coolbeans

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness, the rate of lawbreaking amongst cyclists is vastly ahead of motorists. .

I don't think that's true at all. Admittedly you'll see cyclists breaking the rules all over the shop and enforcement absolutely needs to be increased but I'd argue that the magnitude of law breaking is the same as for other road users. At seemingly every light there's an amber gambler or worse an RLJ in a car. Speeding is also endemic, especially in urban areas. The consequences are also more serious.

Cookie_Monster

el tonto wrote: »

If you routinely broke the speed limit you'd be off the road before long.

bollocks

I don't follow speed limits ever when in the car, not so much as a penalty point on my licence in 4 years.

/puts on flame suit

Chips Lovell

TinyExplosions wrote: »

This is true, but it's also a question of relative numbers. I would say that on my commute there are the same number of cars and cyclists breaking lights. Yes, that's 99% of riders and 1% of traffic, but I think it should all be clamped down on

And there's the rub. It's the relative numbers that have given cyclists such a bad rep. And the 1 per cent get dogs abuse because of the selfishness of the other 99 per cent.

monument

el tonto wrote: »

I've no doubt that plenty of motorists break road traffic laws. But not as a matter of course, which appears to be the case with the majority of commuter cyclists. If you routinely broke the speed limit you'd be off the road before long.

If we had cyclists who broke the odd red light in the same way that motorists took a phone call now and again we wouldn't be so despised.

Surveys -- both speed surveys and polls which ask people -- show that motorists routinely break the speed limit. That may have changed, at least somewhat, since the extra speed cameras were rolled out, but I'd be surprised if routine speeding by many has gone away.

With our current road culture, until there is enforcement to a level where people think they're a good chance they'll be caught, people will generally do what they think they will get away with or will break the the laws they think are not important. So that means peds will cross on mass on red, cyclists will break red lights, and motorists have no problems blocking advance stop lines or ped crossings.

coolbeans

el tonto wrote: »

I've no doubt that plenty of motorists break road traffic laws. But not as a matter of course,

I totally disagree, speeding in urban areas occurs is a matter of course and the chances of being caught are low. Amber gambling is as bad in my experience and enforcement is similarly pathetic.

Chips Lovell

monument wrote: »

Surveys -- both speed surveys and polls which ask people -- show that motorists routinely break the speed limit. That may have changed, at least somewhat, since the extra speed cameras were rolled out, but I'd be surprised if routine speeding by many has gone away.

As I said, I've no doubt motorists admit to speeding. But if you go out on the roads, there isn't such an obvious orgy of blatant lawbreaking as you'll see with cyclists.

I've done several long road trips in recent weeks and noticed maybe 1 in 10 or so obviously breaking the speed limit. Contrast that with cyclists when its the overwhelming majority.

Lumen

I believe that innate idiocy is universal, spread evenly across the driving and cycling populations.

Whereas driving idiocy is generally subtle and disputable, cyclists express their innate idiocy more freely and in more obvious ways, because the consequences of doing so are more limited. You can bumble carefully through a million red lights and never cause an accident.

All this irritating cycling has not produced the sort of KSI stats that would support a major Garda crackdown, so the Guards largely turn a blind eye, so the cyclists continue to do it.

It is not a priority of the Gardai to make life less annoying for people. They have bigger fish to fry.

dearg lady

I'd agree re motorists being just as bad, but there's a lot more motorists to give out about cyclists than vice versa!

What I see motorists do EVERY DAY on my cycle to work,
-illegally in bus lanes
-speeding
-running red lights
-stopping on hatch markings
-not leaving sufficient room to pass cyclists
-not using indicators (this seems to have reached ridiculous levels)


I'm sure there's more that I can't think of, will add to it after my cycle home! :P

Now don't get me wrong, some cyclists are lethal on the roads, but just making the point that both cyclists and motorists in general break the rules of the road.

Undercover Elephant

el tonto wrote: »

If we had cyclists who broke the odd red light in the same way that motorists took a phone call now and again we wouldn't be so despised.

This is a warped set of priorities, though.

Surely the gardai should be prioritising law-breaking which is dangerous*. RLJing on a bike might be dangerous in some circumstances, but it usually only really endangers the rider. Hurling a ton of metal around while talking on the phone is objectively far more dangerous.

It isn't cyclists' fault that many people are so indoctrinated into car culture that they can't properly understand just what a dangerous activity driving a car is. The fact that some drivers despise us isn't a rational basis for public policy.


* EDIT: and as Lumen points out, they generally do

Chips Lovell

dearg lady wrote: »

What I see motorists do EVERY DAY on my cycle to work,

I've no doubt you do. I see it every day too. But as Tiny said, it's the relative numbers. Do 90 per cent of the cars you see drive in bus lanes? Run red lights? Not indicate etc?

Chips Lovell

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Surely the gardai should be prioritising law-breaking which is dangerous.

They already do. I don't think anyone is arguing they put the same effort into policing cyclists as motorists. Just a bit more than they do at present.

dearg lady

el tonto wrote: »

I've no doubt you do. I see it every day too. But as Tiny said, it's the relative numbers. Do 90 per cent of the cars you see drive in bus lanes? Run red lights? Not indicate etc?

I don't have the percentages, do you have the percentages to prove cyclists do it more often?

Chips Lovell

dearg lady wrote: »

I don't have the percentages, do you have the percentages to prove cyclists do it more often?

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not uncommon for me to see no other cyclist stopping at the lights on my commute. While I see a fair bit of law breaking by motorists, I've never seen the same level of ubiquity.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

They already do. I don't think anyone is arguing they put the same effort into policing cyclists as motorists. Just a bit more than they do at present.

For me, it's the blasting through pedestrian lights that is the most annoying, as it makes wandering around the city more stressful. Bikes are supposed to make our environment more, not less pleasant.

Walking is something you're supposed to be able to do without maintaining a knife-edge concentration level. By and large, green man should mean "walk once the traffic has stopped", not "wait for the traffic to stop, then proceed gingerly whilst constantly scanning all incoming junctions for kamikaze cyclists".

monument

el tonto wrote: »

I've no doubt you do. I see it every day too. But as Tiny said, it's the relative numbers. Do 90 per cent of the cars you see drive in bus lanes? Run red lights? Not indicate etc?

One survey that 90% of car were breaking the 30km zone in the city centre, and, on the other end of the scale, I've been in cars countless numbers of times on the slower sections of motorways -- including at road works -- where the car I was in was at the speed limit and all the other cars were passing us out or getting aggressive behind us.

On red light breaking -- most pedestrians are closer to most cyclists in mindset, size, the road user's visibility, likely damage etc. Have a look at and around pedestrian crossings and see how many j-walk once they get half the change to do so.

Motorists attempts to break red or orange lights can be seen nearly at every light turn at every busy junction in the city -- ie after the lights have changed you'll find motorists in yellow boxes, or past the stop line, or in cyclist's advance stop lines, or on ped crossings.

dearg lady

el tonto wrote: »

As I said earlier in the thread, it's not uncommon for me to see no other cyclist stopping at the lights on my commute. While I see a fair bit of law breaking by motorists, I've never seen the same level of ubiquity.

I would take anyones personal experience with a pinch of salt, people often see what they want to see.
I can't honestly say whether it's more common for cyclists or motorists to break the rules of the road as I don't have the facts, and apparently, nor do you.
The only thing I do know is, I see both groups break the rules on a regular basis.

Chips Lovell

monument wrote: »

One survey that 90% of car were breaking the 30km zone in the city centre

In fairness that study was done on one of the lowest and most controversial speed limits in the country. Do you think they'd get the same results on an average stretch of road?

monument

Just to be clear: As always I'm not saying that misbehaving cyclists should not behave better (they should) or that there should be better enforcement (there should be), I'm just saying that cyclists don't break the law any more than others or at least not much more.

coolbeans

el tonto wrote: »

Do you think they'd get the same results on an average stretch of road?

In urban areas, yes.

dearg lady

Lumen wrote: »

For me, it's the blasting through pedestrian lights that is the most annoying, as it makes wandering around the city more stressful. Bikes are supposed to make our environment more, not less pleasant.

Walking is something you're supposed to be able to do without maintaining a knife-edge concentration level. By and large, green man should mean "walk once the traffic has stopped", not "wait for the traffic to stop, then proceed gingerly whilst constantly scanning all incoming junctions for kamikaze cyclists".

if there are no pedestrians around, i see no problem with a cyclist breaking a red pedestrian light. However, if there are pedestrians around, then it's one of my pet hates. Equally tho, I don't know if you've ever cycled through Dublin City centre, but the amount of peds who wander out in front of you is ridiculous!

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

For me, it's the blasting through pedestrian lights that is the most annoying, as it makes wandering around the city more stressful. Bikes are supposed to make our environment more, not less pleasant.

Yes, my pet hate is idiotic hipsters who are too cool to ride with brakes and end up barrelling through every ped crossing because they can't stop on time.

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

Yes, my pet hate is idiotic hipsters who are too cool to ride with brakes and end up barrelling through every ped cross because they can't stop on time.

These don't venture north of the Liffey. It's a southside affectation.

monument

el tonto wrote: »

In fairness that study was done on one of the lowest and most controversial speed limits in the country. Do you think they'd get the same results on an average stretch of road?

It does not matter how slow or controversial it is.

And that's one of my central points people will often break the laws they think as unimportant or silly -- for cyclists it's red lights, cycling on footpaths, and not using their arms to indicate; for motorists it's breaking orange lights or stop lines or "just going a bit over the limit" where they think it's ok to do so.

But to answer your question anyway: the results would vary widely depending on the road, time of day, etc. A bulk of motorists on motorways also break lower limits -- even at roadworks -- as a matter of course.

Davyhal

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

Chips Lovell

dearg lady wrote: »

if there are no pedestrians around, i see no problem with a cyclist breaking a red pedestrian light.

Why are you special just because you're on a bike? Would you do the same in your car?

coolbeans

dearg lady wrote: »

if there are no pedestrians around, i see no problem with a cyclist breaking a red pedestrian light. However, if there are pedestrians around, then it's one of my pet hates. Equally tho, I don't know if you've ever cycled through Dublin City centre, but the amount of peds who wander out in front of you is ridiculous!

While I agree with you in principle, the law isn't there to be interpreted. Also as idiotic as many peds can be I do think that the onus should be on cyclists to avoid them just as it is with cars re cyclists.

Chips Lovell

monument wrote: »

It does not matter how slow or controversial it is.

Is it not selective sampling though? Picking one area where motorists are most likely to break the speed limit

SD7792

monument wrote: »

One survey that 90% of car were breaking the 30km zone in the city centre

In fairness, I'd say 90% of cyclists break that 30km speed limit aswell :P

Chips Lovell

SD7792 wrote: »

In fairness, I'd say 90% of cyclists break that 30km speed limit aswell :P

Speed limits don't apply to bikes.

Lumen

SD7792 wrote: »

In fairness, I'd say 90% of cyclists break that 30km speed limit aswell :P

There are no speed limits for cyclists.

TinyExplosions

Cyclists don't have speed limits

dearg lady

Davyhal wrote: »

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

I don't think anyone has actually said motorists break more laws than cyclists. Just clarifying that both groups do break laws.

el tonto wrote: »

Why are you special just because you're on a bike? Would you do the same in your car?

As I said in an earlier post I think cyclists should have a different set of rules than motorists. I don't think I'm 'special', just acknowledging the fact that bikes and cars are different.

coolbeans wrote: »

While I agree with you in principle, the law isn't there to be interpreted. Also as idiotic as many peds can be I do think that the onus should be on cyclists to avoid them just as it is with cars re cyclists.

I do agree with the second bit, the onus is on me to avoid pedestrians when I;'m on my bike, no matter how mad they make me! but can't agree with the first bit. While I understand what you're saying, i won't follow any ridiculous laws just because it's the law.

coolbeans

Davyhal wrote: »

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

If you read carefully, I think you'll find the point being made is that a crackdown on cyclists exclusively would be unhelpful especially as all road users, IMO, seem to habitually break the rules.

Coronal

el tonto wrote: »

Is it not selective sampling though? Picking one area where motorists are most likely to break the speed limit

Yes, but I still think it's pretty common. Maybe only by a few percent of the speed limit on main roads, but one sees it a lot around Roscommon town and small country roads.

SD7792

el tonto wrote: »

Speed limits don't apply to bikes.

Lumen wrote: »

There are no speed limits for cyclists.

Yeah I know but what I'm saying is that if bikes can easily reach that speed then its obvious that many cars are going to be breaking the limit, add to that the fact that it was never really enforced by the Gardai at all.

Basically, I'm agreeing with el tontos point that this is a poor example to take when comparing rule breaking between motorists and cyclists..

coolbeans

dearg lady wrote: »

While I understand what you're saying, i won't follow any ridiculous laws just because it's the law.

Unless the specific law endangers you, I think you should obey it. I find that I'm treated far more respectfully by other road users if I stop at RLs and ped crossings.

monument

el tonto wrote: »

Is it not selective sampling though? Picking one area where motorists are most likely to break the speed limit

Isn't your city centre commute just as selective? For example, how many cyclists break red lights and cross from one side of the N11 to the other?

Davyhal wrote: »

Is it not a bit of a childish arguments to say "Well motorists break more laws than we do!"... Reminds me of a 4 year old being scolded for breaking a glass replying with "Well my brother broke the TV"... Don't compare yourselves to other modes of transport or to other cyclists, just take it upon yourself not to break the law. These are the rules of the road and abide by them!

It would be, if anybody was saying that.

I don't think anybody here is saying "Well motorists break more laws than we do!," but that that all road user groups are around the same in their law breaking even they choose different laws to be more selective about.

As much as I can, I not to break the law. Like many others here, I don't break lights -- I don't even break stop lines where I can help it.