Irish Rail fine

ZyklonB

Got a fine on the train the other day. I bought a student ticket online, the fella came along to check the ticket and asked me to present my student travel pass. I showed him a valid student card, he told me this was insufficient and gave me a fine for €166 euro! I wouldn't mind but the fecking student ticket was only €3 cheaper than a regular ticket, i genuinely wasn't trying to pull a fast one, i thought I was entitled since I am a student.

Anyways, 21 days to pay the fine. I am on back to education allowance so between college years I am on regular dole and will find it very difficult to spare more the 50 a week to pay this fine. Says on the ticket legal action will be take if I dont pay.

Can anyone shed some light on what may happen in court if I dont pay it?
Is it worth disputing since I am a student?

Any advice welcome, cheers.

brehayes

what was wrong with the student card you presented?

mari2222

I think Irish Rail require you to buy THEIR student card!

Seems unfair.

barman linen

Have always wondered about the powers of detention here......what if the OP had just got up and walked away from the inspector ? What power does he have to detain and to take name and address in the absence of the Garda ?

I would have just ignored him and got off at the next stop....

Our man in Havana

It is a bit hard to get off a moving train.

Paulw

For student fares, you must have a valid Student travel card. Your normal student card doesn't cover this.

As for demanding your details, this is covered under the rail bye-laws.

http://www.irishrail.ie/upload/fixedpenalty.pdf

charlemont

Fine

---

Bin.

Our man in Havana

charlemont wrote: »

Fine

---

Bin.

Summons

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Court

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Fine and/or Jail

charlemont

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Summons

---

Court

---

Fine and/or Jail

As if the Guards are going to kick in your door to summons you for it, Court.. I don't think a bench warrant will be issued for not showing in court up for a poxy rail fine, Prison, Yes just sign in and wait in a holding cell and be out in two hours when the T.R. form is signed, See its not a big thing really.

fallonj

Sounds harsh alright. But then again maybe it's a sort of natural justice for using a username based on a gas used to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in concentration camps!

Anyway, it clearly sates in a very large popup message during the purchasing process the following:
* You have chosen a Student ticket. To travel on this ticket you must have either a valid Iarnród Éireann Student TravelCard or a valid Translink Student Discount Card in your name. No other student ID or travel cards are valid on Iarnród Éireann services. For details about accepted travel cards go to www.studenttravelcard.ie or www.translink.co.uk/Students/Discount-Card/.

Failure to produce a valid ticket, appropriate ID or Surcharge where necessary will result in the passenger being issued a fixed penalty of €100 together with the relevant unpaid fare.

Cut an dried it seems. But why your fine is €166 euros as opposed to €103 seems strange.

Our man in Havana

fallonj wrote: »

Sounds harsh alright. But then again maybe it's a sort of natural justice for using a username based on a gas used to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in concentration camps!

Anyway, it clearly sates in a very large popup message during the purchasing process the following:
* You have chosen a Student ticket. To travel on this ticket you must have either a valid Iarnród Éireann Student TravelCard or a valid Translink Student Discount Card in your name. No other student ID or travel cards are valid on Iarnród Éireann services. For details about accepted travel cards go to www.studenttravelcard.ie or www.translink.co.uk/Students/Discount-Card/.

Failure to produce a valid ticket, appropriate ID or Surcharge where necessary will result in the passenger being issued a fixed penalty of €100 together with the relevant unpaid fare.

Cut an dried it seems. But why your fine is €166 euros as opposed to €103 seems strange.

It is the full unpaid fare and not the difference. The OP is considered to have no ticket at all.

Jagle

does anyone find it strange that most other business accept normal student cards, yet Irish Rail dont, i know not all student cards have expirary dates on them, but if you an undergraduate, and 4 years have passed since it was issued, i imagine he isnt in college anymore. its just a bit daft

teaholic

I was on the train going to Ballina, there was a group of 4 American students on it who had bought their tickets online and chose the student option for their ticket.

When the Inspector came around he had his speil of that their American Student Cards were not sufficient and told them he could fine them but he wouldnt and only charged them the difference of the Student ticket to the Adult Fare.

It doesnt seem very fair that he fined you the whole amount and wouldnt exchange your ticket.

CIARAN_BOYLE

dublin bus is the same

Jagle

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

dublin bus is the same

what idiot in charge thought, lets ignore all of the student cards out there and introduce our own, doesnt make sense, makes perfect irish sense tho

lisasimpson

charlemont wrote: »

As if the Guards are going to kick in your door to summons you for it, Court.. I don't think a bench warrant will be issued for not showing in court up for a poxy rail fine, Prison, Yes just sign in and wait in a holding cell and be out in two hours when the T.R. form is signed, See its not a big thing really.

cie will take ( and have done) taken people to court over same amounts. had a relative end up in court for something similar and on top of the fine had to pay CIEs expenses only last yr

maxxie

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Summons

---

Court

---

Fine and/or Jail

Jail, you for real. You barely get sent to jail for rape in this country.

OP, try appeal it!!!!

Our man in Havana

maxxie wrote: »

Jail, you for real. You barely get sent to jail for rape in this country.

OP, try appeal it!!!!

Jail if you don't pay the fine imposed by the court.

Jagle

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Jail if you don't pay the fine imposed by the court.

but surely that jail will be walk in the door and walk back out, there not actually gonna hold you in a cell for any length of time, over 166 euro


op, talk to irish rail, you can pay the fine and be done with it or refuse and have to deal with the consequences, i personally wouldnt pay

mari2222

The reaction of Irish rail seems disproportionate - with an alternative student card, you were treated as if you had NO student card.....it seems unreasonable to me, anyway. It is also rather unfair that they have a monopoly interest ( I believe) in the "accepted" card issuing business...might the competition authority or the consumer authority be interested?

Paulw

mari2222 wrote: »

It is also rather unfair that they have a monopoly interest ( I believe) in the "accepted" card issuing business...might the competition authority or the consumer authority be interested?

They won't be interested, since this student travel card is a discount card.

They actually have no obligation to give any discount at all, in law.

Plain and simple - the OP didn't follow the terms and conditions for the purchase of a student fare.

Either pay the fee, or else argue it in court (and Irish Rail have a very high rate of successful prosecutions).

fallonj

So, lets say you go down the route of not paying. CIE will take you to court. You will receive a further fine. CIE will win because they clearly state the terms and conditions under which you agree to travel You ignored these. If you don't pay the court fine, you will also get a record of having been in prison, even if it is a revolving door sentance. Result, no visas for travel to U.S., Australia and many other countries. No loans from many financial institutions and many employers won't touch you with a bargepole.

MagicSean

Jagle wrote: »

but surely that jail will be walk in the door and walk back out, there not actually gonna hold you in a cell for any length of time, over 166 euro


op, talk to irish rail, you can pay the fine and be done with it or refuse and have to deal with the consequences, i personally wouldnt pay

It's not a matter of just showing up at a prison and signing in and back out. You get arrested by the Gardaí and held in a station cell until they bring you to prison where you are lodged and have to undergo the whole process like any other prisoner. You might get out the same day or you might be there a week.

Finnbar01

Just another revenue generating scam.

valleyoftheunos

Pay the fine OP, if you don't you will get summonsed and end up with a much higher fine.

jblack

Our man in Havana wrote: »

It is the full unpaid fare and not the difference. The OP is considered to have no ticket at all.

IMO if I was to argue this fine, and personally I wouldn't, I would look to the amount of the fine as the basis for challenge. If the amount of the fine + unpaid fare does not take into account the fact that you have already paid a fee then perhaps there is an argument.

Other than that you seem snookered. Their student card requirements are stupid but they make the rules.

My first move would be to ring their legal dept and have a word with whoever is running fine recovery etc. They may be happy to reduce the amount for a quick payment.
Then again maybe they won't.

Perhaps I'm a bit square but I find it interesting that in this, and indeed many forums, people are regularly advised to ignore fines.

If it goes to court = bigger fine (Jail extremely unlikely) + your own costs if you take representation + Irish Rail's costs

Instead of €166 it could be more like €1,666; better the devil you know...

charlemont

fallonj wrote: »

So, lets say you go down the route of not paying. CIE will take you to court. You will receive a further fine. CIE will win because they clearly state the terms and conditions under which you agree to travel You ignored these. If you don't pay the court fine, you will also get a record of having been in prison, even if it is a revolving door sentance. Result, no visas for travel to U.S., Australia and many other countries. No loans from many financial institutions and many employers won't touch you with a bargepole.

Prison time is a default on all fines issued in Ireland so whatever way you want to deal with it is your choice, The conviction itself will be listed on your record but the punishment will only be marked €500 Fine or 28 days* imprisonment.. Your record wont show which you choose but if you do the time instead it will be on the Irish Prison Services records and you will have been issued with a prison number.

*example only

ZyklonB

OP here, thanks for all the replies so far. I am probably going to go ahead and pay the fine, however a phone call to try and protest the charge wont do any harm. Since i am a student and have valid documentation to prove this, could anybody give me any tips on points worth arguing with irish rail, every opinion/suggestion will be taken on board and is greatly appreciated.

jblack

ZyklonB wrote: »

OP here, thanks for all the replies so far. I am probably going to go ahead and pay the fine, however a phone call to try and protest the charge wont do any harm. Since i am a student and have valid documentation to prove this, could anybody give me any tips on points worth arguing with irish rail, every opinion/suggestion will be taken on board and is greatly appreciated.

Speak to the correct person; no good talking to a sh1tkicker who will just enjoy annoying you.

Don't argue - they have you by the b@lls and if you pi$$ them off you'll get nowhere.

Tell them you're broke and if it goes to court you will have no way of paying for it. Ask them to consider

a) charging you the difference i.e. €3; or
b) full fare €66; or
c) the fine only €100

all would be preferable to the fine as it stands and a hell of a lot better than going to court.

Be polite & good luck

let us know how you get on

valleyoftheunos

ZyklonB wrote: »

OP here, thanks for all the replies so far. I am probably going to go ahead and pay the fine, however a phone call to try and protest the charge wont do any harm. Since i am a student and have valid documentation to prove this, could anybody give me any tips on points worth arguing with irish rail, every opinion/suggestion will be taken on board and is greatly appreciated.

It won't do any harm but don't expect any success, Irish Rail, CIE, Dublin Bus and Luas all clearly stipulate that a valid Student travel card is necessary to avail of student fares, pleading ignorance of that won't get you very far nor should it.

Best of luck at any rate, follow JBlack's suggestions and let us know how you get on.

IsThisIt???

teaholic wrote: »

I was on the train going to Ballina, there was a group of 4 American students on it who had bought their tickets online and chose the student option for their ticket.

When the Inspector came around he had his speil of that their American Student Cards were not sufficient and told them he could fine them but he wouldnt and only charged them the difference of the Student ticket to the Adult Fare.

It doesnt seem very fair that he fined you the whole amount and wouldnt exchange your ticket.

This brings up an interesting point actually. If i'm abroad my student card is accepted wherever I go.
Imagine you came to a country as a student, were using a system that had a student option and selected that. Then you are told that your student card from home isn't valid and you must have their version of it. I would be angry about the fact they called it a student discount when in effect it is not available to all students, only ones studying in Ireland who have some made up card of theirs. Ireland is well behind other countries I have visited in this regard imo.

CantGetNoSleep

Exact same system in France, except the discount card costs €50

CantGetNoSleep

Exact same system in France, except the discount card costs €50

Victor

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Just another revenue generating scam.

No money, no railway.

Zambia

Unless they stated what a student card was anyone could pretty much make their own. Couple that with the warning prior to purchase its not that unfair.

Finnbar01

Victor wrote: »

No money, no railway.

So you agree with me so?

Paulw

Finnbar01 wrote: »

So you agree with me so?

No, it's not a scam. It's clearly laid out what fare you must pay and what the conditions are for a "student" fare.

Failure to have paid the correct fare has clear punishment - a large fine.

In future, I'm sure the OP will pay the correct fare, or else will try to argue in court (but I don't hold much luck for him winning his case).

ZyklonB

UPDATE:

Got in contact with irish rail, the lad on the phone could not have been sounder, the best he could do was deduct the price i already paid for the student ticket off my fine and extend the deadline for another 5 weeks

jblack

ZyklonB wrote: »

UPDATE:

Got in contact with irish rail, the lad on the phone could not have been sounder, the best he could do was deduct the price i already paid for the student ticket off my fine and extend the deadline for another 5 weeks

That's a great result well done. Don't think you could have done any better.

gaser

what you should also take into account is that if you do not pay the fine and it goes to court and you are convicted, that will stop you been allowed into America or Australia.

Our man in Havana

gaser wrote: »

what you should also take into account is that if you do not pay the fine and it goes to court and you are convicted, that will stop you been allowed into America or Australia.

No it won't! Stop stirring the brown stuff.

charlemont

gaser wrote: »

what you should also take into account is that if you do not pay the fine and it goes to court and you are convicted, that will stop you been allowed into America or Australia.

Prove it.

later12

fallonj wrote: »

If you don't pay the court fine, you will also get a record of having been in prison, even if it is a revolving door sentance. Result, no visas for travel to U.S., Australia and many other countries. .

The amount of BS in this thread is remarkable.

gaser

are they allowing people into America these days that have criminal convictions?

Our man in Havana

gaser wrote: »

are they allowing people into America these days that have criminal convictions?

Yes.

gaser

2 Newcastle Utd. footballers not let in for pre season tour because they had criminal convictions, has the US law changed in 3 weeks, if so thats great news.

gaser

2 Newcastle Utd players not let into the US earlier this month because they have criminal convictions, has the US law changed in 3 weeks, if so that is great news.

Our man in Havana

What exactly were they convicted of?

I suggest you read up about moral turpitude.

Which office of IE do you work in? Morals and Ethics?

valleyoftheunos

Very much depends on the type of conviction. Drugs offense not a chance, traffic offense, not likely a problem.

gaser

sadly i'm unemployed, but i do know that that the American's and other countries that require you to have a visa do not look upon any conviction lightly

Our man in Havana

Will you ever give up.

Only convictions resulting in a 12 month or more prison sentence or crimes involving moral turpitude will exclude someone from the United States.