Ulster - the Famine Experience and other Stories

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

MD you are so eloquent.

I try...:)

P. Breathnach

MarchDub wrote: »

The vast majority of the grain that was surrendered was given up for rents. The Irish small holder rarely had any money - it was a largely barter economy at that level. So the grain was not 'sold' - as I think you are suggesting - on the open market but was given to the landlord for rent. That was the system. The fear was if the grain was not given up to the landlord then eviction followed because the 'rent' was not paid- and this was frequent.

I am more inclined to take O Grada's views on this than to take yours. He has done the numbers. There's stuff in the house somewhere, but I can't find it now. If and when I do, I'll cite it.

Also the victims and the survivors did not come from separate gene pools. The victims were for the most part related to the survivors - so to say that we are only descended from the survivors is not accurate. We are descended from both.

Of course it is possible that people are descended from people who died as a result of the Famine. It's rather more likely, however, that people are descended from people who survived the Famine.

For many, their own survival involved distancing themselves from victims. Whatever little food they could get, they kept for themselves and their immediate families, and did not share with their less fortunate neighbours. They saw it as necessary so that they could survive. In some cases, it was easy to keep a distance from the destitute, because the urban middle classes and the larger farmers did not necessarily have close family connections with the subsistence farmer. In other cases, it might have involved turning away from near kinfolk because there was not enough food to share.

It is because people either chose to or were forced to put their own needs ahead of the needs of other that I suspect that there is an amount of survivor guilt in the way the Famine was viewed in the past.

It is not wrong for any society to claim an allegiance with and commemorate a past tragedy.

Of course not. Did I suggest otherwise?

For some reason we have reached a point where the Irish are supposed to suck it up and keep quiet.

I don't see anybody, anywhere, taking such a position.

The huge memorial and commemorations to the war dead held by the larger European former imperial nations passes without any comment - or even, applause. The Holocaust is also widely commemorated but for some reason - what? - we Irish are supposed to either keep quit or justify our own epitaphs to our tragic dead.

What's in that paragraph other than rhetoric?

I think we should face up to the fact that many Irish people survived the Famine because they put their own needs ahead of the needs of others. I don't condemn them for it: it was what they needed to do. But I recognise that in later years the whole thing was difficult for them to deal with. That's one reason why a great veil of silence was drawn over it. My grandfather, whom I knew when I was a child, was the son of a peasant who was born in 1833. I suspect that his father did not speak to him about his teenage years.

MarchDub

Nhead wrote: »

T A New History of Ireland: vol. V: Ireland Under the Union 1801-1870 ( ed. W.E Vaughan) has some excellent essays on the period from Economy and Society, 1830-1845 which looks at the dominance of tillage from the 1780s-1840s and cottiers and landless labourers (Oliver Mac Donagh). Land and People by T.W. Freeman. James S. Donnelly Jr has an extensive overview of all areas in Ireland during the famine which includes the Government Response, production, prices and exports, the adminstration of relief, the soup kitchens, landlords and tenants, excess mortality and emigration pp. 272-373. In particular, for the OP, he looks at Ulster, North Connacht and Leinster midlands in Excess Mortality and Emigration. Published by Oxford under the auspices of the Royal Irish Academy this series is a must and was originally planned by T.W Moody. This volume is well worth a read for this topic and is on sale!!

This has an original publication date of 1989 - although there are many reprints since - and TBH there are more up to date volumes published on the Famine since then.

The Great Irish Famine by Christine Kinealy is excellent.

MarchDub

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What's in that paragraph other than rhetoric?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Since then, we have tended to re-interpret the past, putting all the blame for hard-heartedness on to the English (among whom we often include the wealthy Irish if they were Protestant) and we generally identify with those near-destitute people who suffered most when the famine happened.


I believe that some of the focus on the victims of the famine is an expression of survivor guilt. The great-great-grandchild of a large Kilkenny cereal farmer of 1847 might identify with the starving people, and be totally unaware that her ancestor sold grain for export.

My comment was in answer to your rhetoric and opinion. nothing more...one comment answered by another.

Nhead

MarchDub wrote: »

This has an original publication date of 1989 - although there are many reprints since - and TBH there are more up to date volumes published on the Famine since then.

The Great Irish Famine by Christine Kinealy is excellent.

TBH, I know that I am able to read I was just putting it out there, lot of snottiness on these pages I didn't know there was a date range on pointing people towards a source!!!!!

MarchDub

Nhead wrote: »

TBH, I know that I am able to read I was just putting it out there, lot of snottiness on these pages I didn't know there was a date range on pointing people towards a source!!!!!

Didn't mean to offend. You're right as regards the tension surrounding this subject.

The Famine was one of the chief historic subjects that came under attack by the so called 'revisionists' in the 70s and 80s - against previous views - and then that view, [the 'revisionists'] became a counter-attack point by the later more contemporary historians. So it is an emotive topic in history circles.

P. Breathnach

MarchDub wrote: »

My comment was in answer to your rhetoric and opinion. nothing more...one comment answered by another.

If we want good discussion, then opinion should be expressed as opinion. I try to post in that way. Claims in the form of statements of fact should be limited to what can be backed up with good authority.

MarchDub

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If we want good discussion, then opinion should be expressed as opinion. I try to post in that way. Claims in the form of statements of fact should be limited to what can be backed up with good authority.

No problem there - I agree.

Nhead

MarchDub wrote: »

Didn't mean to offend. You're right as regards the tension surrounding this subject.

The Famine was one of the chief historic subjects that came under attack by the so called 'revisionists' in the 70s and 80s - against previous views - and then that view, [the 'revisionists'] became a counter-attack point by the later more contemporary historians. So it is an emotive topic in history circles.

Apologies, I just took your post up the wrong way. I know what you mean about 'revisionists' but the series is very good for backing up it's argument. What is interesting in the volume is more the use of statstics to show what it was like. I think it is a good starting point because of that. Of course, newer sources come to light all the time.

Fratton Fred

MarchDub wrote: »

Didn't mean to offend. You're right as regards the tension surrounding this subject.

The Famine was one of the chief historic subjects that came under attack by the so called 'revisionists' in the 70s and 80s - against previous views - and then that view, [the 'revisionists'] became a counter-attack point by the later more contemporary historians. So it is an emotive topic in history circles.

It is incredibly politicised as well.

Ostrom

CDfm wrote: »

So with this thread , I am not interested in the politics because you can't eat politics.

I am interested in the facts of what happened and how the province recovered and coped.

As other have pointed out, variation in demographic trends seem to be closely related to the form of landlordism practiced in specific regions.

The extent to which commodity crops were required by individual tenants to produce rental income (either through sale or rent-in-kind), in areas undergoing enclose and consolidation is directly a question of politics. The extent of individual land given over to subsistence crop production depended on variables such as prevailing forms of tenure, access to commonage, lack of remuneration in the form of rent reduction from tenant improvements. Concflicts of customary and constitutional law produced disruptions in seasonal rotations, livestock-arable balance etc.

It is utterly impossible to discuss the famine out of its political context.

CDfm

efla wrote: »

As other have pointed out, variation in demographic trends seem to be closely related to the form of landlordism practiced in specific regions....................................................................................................................
It is utterly impossible to discuss the famine out of its political context.

Thanks efla & others, but on the politics issue you have the Trevelyans Corn thread -if its still open.

This is intended to be a local Ulster Famine thread.

And of course, it is ok to make the point that the British Government chose not to get involved and we all know that.What we do not know about are things like how the local workhouses operated funded by rates paid by small farmers, did landowners contribute.

So who got involved.

How did Patrick Bronte's family the Prunty's make out.

Were there evictions , were there clearences, ???,000 presbyterian emigrants where did they go and how did they pay their fares.

Like it or not, Ulster fared less badly than the rest of the country.

There is lots we do not know.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Were there evictions , were there clearences, ???,000 presbyterian emigrants where did they go and how did they pay their fares.

Like it or not, Ulster fared less badly than the rest of the country.

There is lots we do not know.

I think some of the previous posts regarding the people in the region having more means to purchase alternative foods are probably why Ulster was 'less' affected. This was as a result of the more industrialised area with a way of making money that didnt rely on agriculture as much. When the potatoe crop failed there would have been no work for the many labours and cottiers. In Ulster they may have found alternative work.

historians often have cited socio-economic and cultural factors relatively unique to Northeast Ulster, such as industrialization and urbanization, the prevalence of tenant right and comparatively congenial landlord-tenant relations, and, among the rural populace, a greater variety of income sources and less dietary dependence on potatoes than prevailed in Munster and Connacht. http://books.google.ie/books?id=EopWeGItUYQC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=ulster++famine&source=bl&ots=FIjPYuPXnL&sig=lDAJMG85E7dF1aLfvHGSC534COU&hl=en&ei=EJxBTt_dOsaphAe3073HCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBDgy#v=onepage&q=ulster%20%20famine&f=false

The same article also deals comprehensively with the absurd proposition that presbyterians escaped the worst of the famine due to their hard work

some scholars may inadvertently have repeated contemporary claims by Irish unionists, who argued that "Ulster"--i.e., its Protestant inhabitants--eluded the famine because of the provinces superior "character" for industry, virtue, and loyalty. But in reality, many Protestant as well as Catholic Ulstermen and -women suffered grievously. Between 1841 and 1851 Ulsters population fell by nearly one-fifth--significantly more than the 15.3 percent decline that occurred in heavily Catholic Leinster. During the same period the number of inhabitants of the future Northern Ireland fell 14.7 percent (or 13 percent if Belfasts burgeoning population is included), and in the four northeastern counties that in 1861 had Protestant majorities (Antrim, Armagh, Down, and Londonderry), the comparable decline was 12.1 percent (or, including Belfast, nearly 10 percent). (5) Of course, it is likely that northeastern Catholics suffered more severely than did Protestants, and it is probable that population losses in the region, particularly among Protestants, were primarily due to out-migration rather than to the effects of starvation and disease. (6) However, as David Miller has argued, in the prefamine decades the contraction of rural weaving and spinning had created in Ulster an impoverished Protestant underclass whose members vulnerability to the crisis of 1845-52 can be compared with that of Catholic cottiers and laborers in the South and West. Furthermore, Miller points out, some poor Protestants in Northeast Ulster did perish of malnutrition or "famine fever," even in areas adjacent to thriving industrial centers. And Mokyrs estimated excess-mortality rates for heavily Protestant County Antrim, as well as for the roughly half-Protestant counties of Armagh, Fermanagh, and Tyrone (all four in the future Northern Ireland), exceed those in most parts of Leinster. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-80532346.html http://books.google.ie/books?id=EopWeGItUYQC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=ulster++famine&source=bl&ots=FIjPYuPXnL&sig=lDAJMG85E7dF1aLfvHGSC534COU&hl=en&ei=EJxBTt_dOsaphAe3073HCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBDgy#v=onepage&q=ulster%20%20famine&f=false

On the contrary figures seem to show that Presbyterians in some areas suffered more proportionally than their CofI neighbours

much evidence suggests that the famines effects were not evenly distributed among Ulsters Protestants, and that Presbyterians experienced substantially greater attrition than did members of the legally established Church of Ireland. For example, during the period 1831-61, spanning the famine crisis, Ulsters Presbyterian population fell by nearly 18 per cent, compared with a less than 13 percent decline among Anglicans (and a 19 percent decrease among Catholics). (14) In 1831-61 proportional losses among Ulsters Presbyterians were greater than for Anglicans in eight of the provinces nine counties; only in Fermanagh, with its minuscule Presbyterian population, did the percentage decline among communicants of the Church of Ireland exceed that experienced by Presbyterians (or by Catholics). Moreover, only in Antrim (excluding Belfast) and in Down were Presbyterian attrition rates slightly less than those of Catholics. In Antrim (excluding Belfast), for instance, between 1831 and 1861 the Presbyterian and the Catholic populations declined by 7 and 10 percent, respectively, but the number of Anglicans increased by more than 12 percent. Likewise, Armaghs Anglican population fell merely 8 percent, compared with a 31 percent decline among Presbyterians (and a 16 percent decrease among Catholics); and in County Londonderry the number of Anglicans rose by 1 percent, while that of Presbyterians fell 28.5 percent (and of Catholics, 13 percent). Even in the predominantly Catholic "outer" Ulster counties of Cavan, Donegal, and Monaghan, proportional losses among Presbyterians in 1831-61 exceeded those among Anglicans and Catholics alike.

I would qualify this by saying that I dont think the religious persuasion really matters once it is established that people suffered no matter what their denomination.

jonniebgood1

This is a rather random series of quotes from 'A History of Ulster' by Jonathan Bardon. The point of re-posting it here is to illustrate that the situation in Ulster, while maybe not as extreme as in the west, was still horrific. I think it is easy to miss this fact when we consider that maybe it was an area that escaped lightly.

"We had a field of potatoes that year in the back lane, and in one night they were struck with the blight and both tops and roots were blackened." James Brown, Tyrone.

"I have not words to describe the state of destitution of this quarter of the country from want of a supply of food for sales .... The Relief Committee most earnestly desire me to call your humane and immediate attention to the situation and utter destitution of the people." Rev. James Ovens, Donegal.

"It strikes the people as being very unfeeling on our part to keep corn in the store without issuing it ... I hope I may soon get authority to issue." Deputy-Assistant-Commissary-General Gem, Donegal.

"It would be impossible to exaggerate the awful destitution that exists in the town of Clones and neighborhood ... The number of deaths in the Clones workhouse, during the last week, has been twenty-five, at the lowest." The Fermanagh Report, 1846

"Landlords of Antrim! will you - can you, in the face of all these facts, compel us to sell our cows, or part with the only portion of bread which remains for the support of our families, in order to satisfy your claims? ... Landlords, ye are men, and thiak, and feel, and pity, and love as men." Antrim.

"The very small farmers, I am sorry to say, are now compelled to commence consuming the small stack of corn they had intended for seed for this year's crop, and in most instances, their stack-yards will be completely empty in the month hence." Captain Brereton, Down.

"I do not exaggerate when I tell you that from the moment I open my hall door in the morning until dark, I have a crowd of women and children crying out for something to save them from starving." George Dawson, Derry.

"The people thrown out of work have no resource whatsoever, hundreds spend days without food, and in the absence of proper subsistence have recourse to most unwholesome diet. Their deserted and wretched cabins, their forlorn and distressing look, with pain and sickness so dreadfully depicted in every countenance, is horribly painful to look at; and with all this human misery, there is no person putting his shoulder to the burthen - no proper efforts are being made to relieve the people. How it will end, God only knows." 1847, Monaghan.

"It now a thing of daily occurrence to see haggard, sallow and emaciated beings, stricken down by fever or debility from actual want, stretched prostrate upon the footways of our streets and villages." Belfast News Letter, 1847.

"I have frequently heard of the horrors of Skibbereen quoted, but they can handly have exceeded these." Temporary Inspector D'Arcy, Fermanagh.

"That million and a half men, women and children, were carefully, prudently, and peacefully slain by the English government." Rev. John Mitchell.
http://www.irish-society.org/home/hedgemaster-archives-2/history-events/the-great-famine-contemporary-voice

owenc

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I think some of the previous posts regarding the people in the region having more means to purchase alternative foods are probably why Ulster was 'less' affected. This was as a result of the more industrialised area with a way of making money that didnt rely on agriculture as much. When the potatoe crop failed there would have been no work for the many labours and cottiers. In Ulster they may have found alternative work.

The same article also deals comprehensively with the absurd proposition that presbyterians escaped the worst of the famine due to their hard work

On the contrary figures seem to show that Presbyterians in some areas suffered more proportionally than their CofI neighbours I would qualify this by saying that I dont think the religious persuasion really matters once it is established that people suffered no matter what
their denomination.

Once again I don't think you'd learnt much about ni in history because there was a large scale immigration to new England then everyone knows about that and everyone has ancestors in America... It is well documented and i think my earlier estimates of 200,000 may be a little out of the way according to wikipedia. :

Migration

From 1710 to 1775, over 200,000 people emigrated from Ulster to the 13 Colonies, from Maine to Georgia. The largest numbers went to Pennsylvania. From that base some went south into Virginia, the Carolinas and across the South, with a large concentration in the Appalachian region; others headed west to western Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, and the Midwest.[12]
Transatlantic flows were halted by the American Revolution, but resumed after 1783, with total of 100,000 arriving in America between 1783 and 1812. By that point few were young servants and more were mature craftsmen and they settled in industrial centers, including Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and New York, where many became skilled workers, foremen and entrepreneurs as the Industrial Revolution took off in the U.S. Another half million came to American 1815 to 1845; another 900,000 came in 1851-99. From 1900 to 1930 the average was about 5,000 to 10,000 a year. Relatively few came after 1930. At every stage a majority were Presbyterians, and that religion decisively shaped Scotch-Irish culture.[13]
According to the Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups, there were 400,000 U.S. residents of Irish birth or ancestry in 1790 and half of this group was descended from Ulster, and half from the other three provinces of Ireland.[14]
A separate migration brought many to Canada, where they are most numerous in rural Ontario.

I'm not sure about those figures but no matter what they still suggest large influx of presbyterians to new england. The numbers also fell due to people in urban areas converting to methodism and the likes because presbyterianism was the religion of the rural people and methodism the rich people. But what my question would be is where the heck did all these catholics come out of in county londonderry? I find it very sad that the protestant religions are being replaced.

CDfm

Nicely put owen, you might like this link

http://www.irelandoldnews.com/History/runaways.htm

Now I think indentured servitude stopped in the 1820's or so but literally a person sold themselves for a number of years for the fare to emigrate and money to set themselves up

REDEMPTIONERS and INDENTURED SERVANTS
Links to Further Information

"Irish Emigration to America, 1723-1773" from Journal of American Irish Historical Society, 1927

...Passing over twenty years, during which there was a constant stream of emigration from Ireland to America, I find another interesting document chronicled under date of May, 1751:
“One hundred and fifty Passengers, including 50 Irish Servants (many of them Catholics who were bound as Servants before the Lord Mayor of Dublin) sailed for Philadelphia, on board the Homer, Captain John Slade, Commander.” The list of names is not complete, owing to damp, but I have made out the following as among those who sailed on the Homer from Dublin, in May, 1751: John O’Toole, Thomas Cassidy, James Fennell, James O’Neill, James Hickey, Edward Doran, John Callaghan, Catherine Cullen, Eleanor Cody, John Connery, Catherine Lawler, William Coffey, John Slattery, Philip MacNeill, Giles Power, Anne Connolly.

And Benjamin Franklin was indentured at one stage

O'Malley, Mike. "Runaway from Freedom?" Runaway from Freedom. http://historymatters.gmu.edu/blackboard/OMalley/runaway.html (30 Aug 2005)
Benjamin Franklin estimated that at the time of the American Revolution, roughly one half of Pennsylvania’s labor force was legally unfree—bound to someone else as property, for many years or for a lifetime.

So how did they afford the trip during the famine ?

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

But what my question would be is where the heck did all these catholics come out of in county londonderry? I find it very sad that the protestant religions are being replaced.

Good question - so why did the Presbyterians emigrate?

Was it not the main port for emigration so by definition you will have had traffic of people and some stayed. That will have had something to do with it along with the pull factor for industrial labour.

When I visited Derry itself I was struck by how small historic Derry actually was.

getz

CDfm wrote: »

When I think of the Famine I do not think of Ulster as that is not what I learnt in school. I found an anomaly in family history research that where one ancestor was living the population growth.

I didn't know that Dublin and Cork as well as the Larne Valley had population growth.

So a famine monument in Dublin has lost its potency for me.


So digging deeper I see that Ulster was also affected -which I did not know even though the info was in front of me.



So with this thread , I am not interested in the politics because you can't eat politics.

I am interested in the facts of what happened and how the province recovered and coped.

To put the era in context,Patrick Bronte , father of the Bronte Sisters was an Ulsterman and when he left Ireland

The last of Patrick's daughters married his curate Arthur Bell Nicolls again from the North and Chatlotte had a very positive experoence of Ireland on her honeymoon , while Patrick(a Cambridge graduate) buried his Irish past.

So where to start ???

the connection between patrick bronte and leaving ulster because of the famine is not realy true,patrick left ireland aged 25 to further his education he registered as a student at st james collage cambridge,he change his name to bronty from brunty ,because if his daughter charlotte is to be believed that his hero lord nelson was bestowed the title of the duke of bronte, and he felt that name would be more easer on english ears,i am a big fan of the brontes and spend a lot of time in haworth,

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

Once again I don't think you'd learnt much about ni in history because there was a large scale immigration to new England then everyone knows about that and everyone has ancestors in America... It is well documented and i think my earlier estimates of 200,000 may be a little out of the way according to wikipedia. :

.....

I'm not sure about those figures but no matter what they still suggest large influx of presbyterians to new england. The numbers also fell due to people in urban areas converting to methodism and the likes because presbyterianism was the religion of the rural people and methodism the rich people. But what my question would be is where the heck did all these catholics come out of in county londonderry? I find it very sad that the protestant religions are being replaced.

Emigration and religious conversion was not restricted to one particular denomination. EDIT- link added below. Religious conversion took place during the famine with the poor being indoctrinated into a different religon in return for food. These were known as 'soupers'. The proselytisers operated more as the worst effects of the famine were past. They were more common in the west of Ireland than in Ulster thus they were mostly associated with catholic poor.
http://books.google.ie/books?id=veXioaeqQbQC&pg=PA136&dq=soupers+the+hidden+famine&hl=en&ei=eTRCTpbBGM2ZhQfpweDXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=soupers&f=false
A good place to see more info on the effects of the famine is the Ulster american folk park. The indoor museum there has a large section that details the situation in ulster regarding emigration and famine including first hand accounts from the time.

In the early years of the nineteenth century Protestants, many of whom were skilled tradesmen, continued to account for the majority of Irish immigrants. There were also numerous political refugees especially after the abortive United Irishmen uprising of 1798. However, by the 1820s and 1830s the overwhelming majority of those fleeing the country were unskilled, Catholic, peasant laborers. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Irish_Americans.aspx

Most of the figures seem to deal with a wider time frame than just the famine

Most of the century's arrivals were Presbyterians from the northern province of Ulster who had originally been sent there from Scotland as colonists by the British crown. Many of these, dissenters from the established Protestant church, came to America fleeing religious discrimination. In later years, especially in the second half of the nineteenth century, it was common to assign the term Scotch-Irish to these Ulster Protestant immigrants, although they thought of themselves as strictly Irish. There were also numerous Irish Quaker immigrants, as well as some Protestants from the south. A significant minority of eighteenth century immigrants were southern Catholics. Most of these were escaping the appalling social and economic conditions as well as the draconian penal laws enacted by the British to annihilate the Celtic heritage and the religion of the Catholic majority. Some of these Catholic arrivals in America in time converted to Protestantism after encountering severe anti-papist discrimination as well as an absence of Catholic churches and priests. The preferred destinations of most of the eighteenth century Irish immigrants were New England, Maryland, Pennsylvania, the Carolinas, and Virginia. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Irish_Americans.aspx

Ostrom

CDfm wrote: »

Thanks efla & others, but on the politics issue you have the Trevelyans Corn thread -if its still open.

This is intended to be a local Ulster Famine thread.

And of course, it is ok to make the point that the British Government chose not to get involved and we all know that.What we do not know about are things like how the local workhouses operated funded by rates paid by small farmers, did landowners contribute.

So who got involved.

How did Patrick Bronte's family the Prunty's make out.

Were there evictions , were there clearences, ???,000 presbyterian emigrants where did they go and how did they pay their fares.

Like it or not, Ulster fared less badly than the rest of the country.

There is lots we do not know.

My (very limited) understanding was that the presence of Ulster Custom fostered conditions of improvement which were impossible under average 'southern' landlordism.

That, and the relative profitability of cottage industry (see proportions under flax) ensured sufficient income source diversity, flexibility of seasonal employment, and return on improvement to offer more favourable conditions.

CDfm

getz wrote: »

the connection between patrick bronte and leaving ulster because of the famine is not realy true,patrick left ireland aged 25 to further his education he registered as a student at st james collage cambridge,he change his name to bronty from brunty ,because if his daughter charlotte is to be believed that his hero lord nelson was bestowed the title of the duke of bronte, and he felt that name would be more easer on english ears,i am a big fan of the brontes and spend a lot of time in haworth,

Patrick Bronte tried to put life BC (before cambridge) behind him.

He left circa 1802.

And I only occasionally call the Bronte's victorian chick lit

owenc

Another theory about the large population drop is that people did not get married and had less children. For example in my own family in the 1800s it was very very large about 300/400 altogether my gggg had six children three boys and three girls only one of them had children and got married the rest died and were foregotten then after that my ggg had less children just one boy and a girl (i think) the girl married and had children and the boy had nine children and married but one of them immigrated and two of them died in the fire that left six only two out of them six had children and got married the rest died, right now at a push my family is 30 people in total which is a big drop, its as if they just dropped off the face of the earth. That is another one of my theories that people had less children and didn't get married as-well as immigration. Theres alot of extinct names in my area right now because of this some families died out very early my g grandmothers family (smith) died out in the 1920s when she got married and her parents died! :eek: I think my family and my mothers family will become extinct soon as-well because no one is having kids and most people in both families are girls, it would be nice to keep a rare family name in existence.

owenc

efla wrote: »

My (very limited) understanding was that the presence of Ulster Custom fostered conditions of improvement which were impossible under average 'southern' landlordism.

That, and the relative profitability of cottage industry (see proportions under flax) ensured sufficient income source diversity, flexibility of seasonal employment, and return on improvement to offer more favourable conditions.

Thx for that it seems that the high contenders in ni in the famine period were oats,wheat,barley,flax and turnips and not potatoes.

getz

CDfm wrote: »

Patrick Bronte tried to put life BC (before cambridge) behind him.

He left circa 1802.

parsonage museum have a good amount of the bronte[prunty ][brunty] family records and letters ,we know that at least two of his brothers went over seas,australia and america,patricks father hugh was born in the south of the ireland and went to live with his uncle welsh and his aunt mary,when his father died his aunt and uncle adopted him,hugh and his uncle welsh were known as great irish fiddlers and made lots of money,[family records from letters left by a aunt] hugh was known as the giant,

getz

CDfm its not true that patrick bronte never went back to visit his family in ireland, after cambridge he went back to visit them in 1806,once he was made parson of the church in howarth and with the loss of his wife,he had to do his religious duties and educate as well as bring up his children,[he never married again ] to travel between england [haworth] and ireland in the 19th century would have been a big deal,and would have taken a few weeks,and to do it with his five little children, remember him for what he was,a great reformer, writer, and irishman.

owenc

Getz you are wrong it does not take a few weeks to get to England that's tripe! If it only takes 2 hours to row from ballycastle to campbeltown it's hardly going to take any more than a day to get to England especially since it only took the ships six weeks to sail from ni to new York..

getz

owenc wrote: »

Getz you are wrong it does not take a few weeks to get to England that's tripe! If it only takes 2 hours to row from ballycastle to campbeltown it's hardly going to take any more than a day to get to England especially since it only took the ships six weeks to sail from ni to new York..

owenc in the early 1800s there was no motorways and ferries,to travel by horse and cart[not stage coach that was for the rich] from haworth to burnley 20 miles it would take a day over the[now] bronte way, and another day as far as preston,as most of the irish passenger trade sailed from liverpool,it could take you up to a week to get there stopping at night at the inns ,you would then have to book your passage and wait for a sailing,not a case of walking onto a ferry, even now driving the 20 miles over the moors to haworth takes me a good half hour

Ostrom

owenc wrote: »

Thx for that it seems that the high contenders in ni in the famine period were oats,wheat,barley,flax and turnips and not potatoes.

The most interesting aspect of that study (NCG in link) is both the regional and ED level variation. Some of the most profound differences in those data are the relative proportions of crop cultivated by smallholders (5-15 acres).

When compared with studies that have mapped other variables onto such regional trends (i.e. poor law valuation, population density, proportion of wasteland) the regional trends become more pronounced. It is really unfortunate that the original census books haven't survived so that trends in household composition could be included.

owenc

You can still acres the 1831 census for county Londonderry.. The 1851 for Antrim and londonderry and the 1803 Antrim census aswell as the tithe appointment books :
http://www.billmacafee.com/182030stithe.htm

CDfm

getz wrote: »

remember him for what he was,a great reformer, writer, and irishman.

I am not a real fan of the Bronte's books ,but, do like the Reverened and his curate and have posted links to them before.Arthur Nicholl looked after his father in law until his death and it was a pity he did not get the parish.

Patrick was an exceptional father too.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66825642&postcount=79

I used them as examples of real people from Ulster that were not politicans .

I love the pistol routine

He (Patrick Bronte) is said to have discharged his guns from the bedroom window into the graveyard every morning. Patrick Bronte knew first hand of Luddite and Chartist unrest and kept a loaded pistol by his bed at night for security.

Very wild west