Ulster - the Famine Experience and other Stories

CDfm

efla wrote: »

My (very limited) understanding was that the presence of Ulster Custom fostered conditions of improvement which were impossible under average 'southern' landlordism.
.

Any idea where owen's population went

So what do we know of the Ulster Custom and did it really happen.

And, were there local conditions i.e. free passage to America as part of land clearences ?

Nhead

NUI MAYNOOTH UNCOVERS IRELAND’S POPULATION STORY OF PAST 160 YEARS

New online atlases tell national emigration and population story at Electoral Division level

http://communications.nuim.ie/press/03082011.shtml


http://ncg.nuim.ie/redir.php?action=projects/famine/explore

Found this: the first link is the press release and the second is the actual atlas.

dubhthach

It's a great dataset that's for sure. Looking at Antrim the most heavily affected DED's (greater then 9.3% population decline 1841-1851)



This includes the core of the Irish speaking area in Antrim at the time. Up in the north east you can see some DED's with very high population declines:

• Glenshesk: 35.47%
• The Fair Head: 24.64%
• Glendun: 21.32%
• Glenmakeeran: 18.34%
• Cushleake: 18.12%
• Cushendall: 11.69%

That block would cover alot of the northern "Glens of Antrim", the DED's to west of it also suffer major declines as well. For those interested the last native speaker in the Glens died in the 1970's.

owenc

What happened in the period 1891-1901 as the population started rising after 1861 and then it drops all of a sudden? This is so confusing i'm trying to work out why the population dropped in some areas so much.

CDfm

dubhthach wrote: »

It's a great dataset that's for sure. Looking at Antrim the most heavily affected DED's (greater then 9.3% population decline 1841-1851.

A question, now were there "Scottish" areas affected and as the birth rate dropped, were there gender issues -immigration for example or indeed a generation lost thru health or psychological issues.

So were Irish women on demand as servants etc . That kind of thing.

In New York, a female antecendent of mine married a coloured carpenter because he was a better provider than the available Irishmen (or so the family history went) .

Mohommad Ali has Irish ancestry http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/aliirish.htm as does Barack Obama.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

Good question - so why did the Presbyterians emigrate?

Was it not the main port for emigration so by definition you will have had traffic of people and some stayed. That will have had something to do with it along with the pull factor for industrial labour.

When I visited Derry itself I was struck by how small historic Derry actually was.

I am only seeing this now. Yes i would love to know that, and why did catholics not immigrate. etc There was alot of people who got on ships who were not recorded as-well.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

A question, now were there "Scottish" areas affected and as the birth rate dropped, were there gender issues -immigration for example or indeed a generation lost thru health or psychological issues.

So were Irish women on demand as servants etc . That kind of thing.

In New York, a female antecendent of mine married a coloured carpenter because he was a better provider than the available Irishmen (or so the family history went) .

Mohommad Ali has Irish ancestry http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/aliirish.htm as does Barack Obama.

I dinno if this has anything to do with it but there was a tendency for presbyterians not to marry or have children i'm not sure why but that would be one of the reasons were population decline. Another one is that ne temere act thing were protestants had to convert when marrying catholics.

dubhthach

owenc wrote: »

I dinno if this has anything to do with it but there was a tendency for presbyterians not to marry or have children i'm not sure why but that would be one of the reasons were population decline. Another one is that ne temere act thing were protestants had to convert when marrying catholics.

Ne Temere dates to 1908 so it's nearly 60 years after the famine and the dataset shown here.

CDfm, well nearly all of Antrim suffered some Population loss, some areas it was only in order of 1% (Larne: 1.63%) if you look at the DED's surrounding Ballymena you see population losses on order of anything between 3% all the way up to 20%+ (Glenwhirry). Carrickfergus lost over 9%

Here's a version of map where I've changed it to display all DED's that saw reduction of greater then 5%

owenc

Yes but the population is double that now

CDfm

There were several large landowners in NI - some were ok but the bulk of the estate management was with the Landlord's Agents and who probably ran the estates on their own account.

Here are some interesting links from the Public Record Office of NI .

The Bath Estate

[Lord Weymouth] sent his Irish agent instructions for building the Viscount Weymouth Grammar School, Carrickmacross. "I intend the school house shall be slated and made a convenient house, which will draw scholars and benefit the town; therefore the timber must be oak." But Thomas was an absentee landlord, and ten years elapsed before he discovered that his agent has embezzled the building fund and repaired an existing building. The school was eventually built, and its syllabus, ... included "Oratory, Virtue, Surveying [and] Antiquities" ... . The stern language of ... [its] ninth statute [enjoined]: "The master shall make diligent enquiry after such as shall break, cut or deface or anywise abuse the desks, forms, walls or windows of this school, and shall always inflict open punishment on all such offenders". ... [See the description of the Shirley Papers on this web-site for further information about the Weymouth school; also hte Armagh Diocesan Registry Papers, DIO4/8/11.]
Thomas Thynne,
1st Viscount Weymouth
In 1865, Alexander [Thynne, 3rd Marquess of Bath] decided to pay a brief visit to Carrickmacross ... . The visit had already been cancelled twice. The potato famine of the ... 1840s and the mass emigration that followed had not been forgotten ... and hostility towards absentee landlords further aggravated the situation. Before leaving Longleat, Alexander received a letter from his Irish agent warning him of the hazards that lay ahead: "Do what we may, and come what time you will, mud must and will be stirred up by the visit. It is very important to have as little of it as we can, otherwise there might be worse than mud thrown". Ten years earlier, the Thynnes' apparent indifference to the welfare of the tenantry had led to several cases of arson, in which buildings were burnt and machinery damaged. Alexander's agent advised him to be prepared for petitions, deputations and an endless recital of local grievances

http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction__bath_and_brownlow_estate.pdf

The Shirley Estate

W.S. Trench
Mitchell's successor, William Steuart Trench, was the agent alternately of the Shirley and Bath estates in the 1840s and 1850s. He was the instigator of the assisted emigration schemes [see D3531/P]. In 1843, the rent realising commodities of the farmer were sold at very low prices. This made the payment of Shirley's increased rent, coupled with the exorbitant bog rent, almost impossible. Under the circumstances, the tenants petitioned their landlord for a reduction of rent. Eventually Shirley arranged to meet them on Monday, 3 April, 1843, at the rent-office in Carrickmacross. With great expectations raised, the tenants arrived in their thousands. However, Shirley at the last minute decided to stay out of the way, leaving Trench to face the tenants with the bad news that the landlord was not going to meet them and furthermore that no abatement was on offer.
W.S. Trench addressing tenants on the Shirley estate
Trench himself further exacerbated matters by announcing that 'he would collect the rents at the point of the bayonet if necessary'. At this, the disappointed tenants rushed towards Trench and carried him off to Lough Fea to get them an interview with Shirley. The landlord in fact was concealed in Shirley House opposite the rent office. On the way to Lough Fea, Trench was considerably manhandled and feared for his life. It was at this stage that Father Keelaghan CC arrived, and by his considerable influence and exertions dispersed the crowd and escorted Trench safely to Lough Fea.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction__shirley_papers_d3531.pdf

The Trench Papers

Summary
Benjamin Bloomfield Trench's papers comprise four volumes and c.400 letters and papers, 1756, 1865 and 1868-1875, as Bath agent, manager of the Cavehill Railways & Quarries Co., and agent to Charles Augustus Verner of Threadneedle Street, London, and his aunt, Miss Anna Verner, 1854 and 1870-1876.

http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction_-_trench_papers_d4141.pdf

So rather than there being a uniform policy -it varied dependant on the landlord and agent.#

So the affects may have been national but the policies were local.

owenc

Everyone says that the estates are gone well there are actually still some estates about 10 miles from me. Including drenagh estate owned by the mccauslands. I've been in there and they all speak with english accents despite the fact that they are from here a bit false i'd like to think. The estate is gorgeous though its amazing to see it and i hope they preserve it because that is the only estate that is from the plantation period still surviving.

: http://www.drenagh.com/

The gage estate from warwickshire.

And part of the mcclelland outhouse is still there. He planted over 300 scottish families in county londonderry and it was the best plantation of county londonderry that actually worked.

owenc

Btw does anyone know when the estates stopped getting people to pay money?

dubhthach

owenc wrote: »

Btw does anyone know when the estates stopped getting people to pay money?

Well obviously there was the "Land War" in the 1870's-1890's this was actually more important political issue then Home Rule at the time. The British goverenment passed a number of "Land Acts" that allowed for Tenents to buy out their land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Land_War

Relevant Westminster Land acts here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Land_Acts

We cover all this along with the Home Rule movement as part of Secondary school history course (Ireland from 1860 to 1960 -- well that was period I covered over 10 years ago!)

Estates use to be large, for example anywhere on order of 10,000 to 100,000 acres. You'd hear of some absentee landlords who owned land across more then one county. As an example the "Earl of Lucan" owned over 65,000 acres in Mayo around Castlebar.

The term "Boycott" actually originates in the "Land War"

owenc

dubhthach wrote: »

Well obviously there was the "Land War" in the 1870's-1890's this was actually more important political issue then Home Rule at the time. The British goverenment passed a number of "Land Acts" that allowed for Tenents to buy out their land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Land_War

Relevant Westminster Land acts here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Land_Acts

We cover all this along with the Home Rule movement as part of Secondary school history course (Ireland from 1860 to 1960 -- well that was period I covered over 10 years ago!)

Estates use to be large, for example anywhere on order of 10,000 to 100,000 acres. You'd hear of some absentee landlords who owned land across more then one county. As an example the "Earl of Lucan" owned over 65,000 acres in Mayo around Castlebar.

The term "Boycott" actually originates in the "Land War"

Oh yes i learn't about the land war but it was the period 1800 to 1910. We also learn't about boycott being irish for something. I'm so stupid i forgot about them giving the people land. :rolleyes:

CDfm

I have been looking for sources on migration and came accross this.

EPPI: Enhanced British Parliamentary Papers on Ireland

EPPI is a large database of 15,000 official publications relating to all aspects of Irish affairs during the period of the Union, including bills, reports, commisions of inquiry, and the published census reports. It is a rich source for the social history of Ireland, as well as for statistics relating to population, emigration and other subjects. DIPPAM will offer an enhanced and comprehensive version of the resource previously hosted by the University of Southampthon.



IED: Irish Emigration Database


http://www.dippam.ac.uk/

There is a Landed Estates Database in NUI Galway on-line and I do not know if it covers Ulster or what the Ulster equivalent might be .

The IED is a virtual library of emigration-related primary sources, principally letters to and from emigrants, compiled by the Centre for Migration Studies, Omagh. This extensive collection of more than 33,000 records is drawn from a number of collections, including the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland and many private donors, and is capable of expansion as new records become available. It covers a wide time period, but with a concentration on the period between c.1780 and c.1920.

VMR: Voices of Migration and Return

VMR comprises over 90 life-narrative interviews conducted with returned and non-returned migrants from Ulster (9-counties) gathered during the course of two studies on contemporary migration (2004-2008). The study participants represent a range of geographic origins within Ulster, class backgrounds and religious denominations.



VMR: Voices of Migration and Return

VMR comprises over 90 life-narrative interviews conducted with returned and non-returned migrants from Ulster (9-counties) gathered during the course of two studies on contemporary migration (2004-2008). The study participants represent a range of geographic origins within Ulster, class backgrounds and religious denominhttp://www.dippam.ac.uk/

dubhthach

owenc wrote: »

Oh yes i learn't about the land war but it was the period 1800 to 1910. We also learn't about boycott being irish for something. I'm so stupid i forgot about them giving the people land. :rolleyes:

Well no Boycott was the surname of a Landlord agent in County Mayo. The community ostracised him, thence the origin of the term. Here's a photo of the man himself : Captain Charles Boycott



The land wasn't given to people. The tenants were given the option to buy out their tenancy. They were given terms of 40+ years to pay back the goverenment the land. Northern Ireland goverenment came to settlement in 1928 (or there abouts) for final lump sum to paid to Westminister. This covered all farmers availing of the scheme in Northern Ireland.

In the republic the sum been paid per year was about £250k, the non payment of this by Dev led to "Economic war" of the 1930's (what a disaster). As part of the "Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1938" this was settled by a £10million final payment.

Either way the landlords got paid for the land. though of course they would have lost their yearly income from tenants paying rent etc.

getzls

Theres a plack forgive my spelling, on the Antrim coast road after think Cusendun about lady Donegall helping local peope during the famine. Bit damaged now but mostly still readable. Think she was Churchills aunt.

CDfm

dubhthach wrote: »

Well no Boycott was the surname of a Landlord agent in County Mayo. The community ostracised him, thence the origin of the term. Here's a photo of the man himself : Captain Charles Boycott


The land wasn't given to people. The tenants were given the option to buy out their tenancy. They were given terms of 40+ years to pay back the goverenment the land. Northern Ireland goverenment came to settlement in 1928 (or there abouts) for final lump sum to paid to Westminister. This covered all farmers availing of the scheme in Northern Ireland.

In the republic the sum been paid per year was about £250k, the non payment of this by Dev led to "Economic war" of the 1930's (what a disaster). As part of the "Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1938" this was settled by a £10million final payment.

Either way the landlords got paid for the land. though of course they would have lost their yearly income from tenants paying rent etc.

The part I do not understand is how much of the rent the landlords actually saw.

There were middlemen etc where you had an absentee landlord and it is not clearcut who was paid what.

Does anyone really know ?

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

The part I do not understand is how much of the rent the landlords actually saw.

There were middlemen etc where you had an absentee landlord and it is not clearcut who was paid what.

Does anyone really know ?

According to Wiki he earned 10% for the land he was agent of:

n 1873, Boycott moved to Lough Mask House, owned by Lord Erne, four miles (6 km) from Ballinrobe in County Mayo. Boycott agreed to become Lord Erne's agent, which meant that he had to collect rents from the tennant farmers on the land. The total rent due to Lord Erne was £500 annually, from which Boycott earned ten per cent, or £50, for being the agent. In his roles as farmer and agent, Boycott employed numerous local people as labourers, grooms, coachmen and house-servants. Joyce Marlow wrote that Boycott had become set in his mode of thought, and that his twenty years on Achill had "strengthened his innate belief in the divine right of the masters, and the tendency to behave as he saw fit, without regard to other people's point of view or feelings".[10]

£50 in 1873 is about £4,100 in modern sterling:
http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/

According to the following page he himself had a farm of 300 acres, which would have provide the bulk of his income.

Some information here regarding average annual wages for groups across different decades of 19th century.
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~alan/family/N-Money.html#1710

CDfm

At this time did you still have cottiers etc .

I am trying to get an idea of the whole estate scene with estate workers and all the rest .

It seems simplistic to say tenant good/landlord bad without knowing how the society fitted together.