London and UK riots (started in Tottenham 10:30PM, 6th Aug)

MagicSean

niallsparky wrote: »

Restrain him an throw him in a van. Only way to be sure he doesn't get involved in anything else for the rest of the night. Surely if the police thought what he did was serious enough there's an obligation on them to arrest and charge him anyway? I've nothing against police using for when necessary but I don't think it was necessary in this situation, they had the situation under control.

What van?

hatrickpatrick

prinz wrote: »

So besides the Royal Opera House what else should be cut? You do realise that not every fan of opera is rolling in cash right? Or is that more of the usual stereotypical gibberish.

It was an example of NON ESSENTIAL SPENDING versus NECESSITY.
Opera House = luxury.
School/hospital = NECESSITY.

I'm suggesting that it's an absolute disgrace to be cutting the latter while still spending on for former. An absolute disgrace.

As an analogy, it'd be like me as a breadwinner not buying school books for my kids because I "can't afford them" while keeping my season tickets for Croke Park.

MagicSean

Seachmall wrote: »

I know exactly what I want from the police force: I want them to do their job, the job outlined by society. An individual officer's discretion under no circumstances over-rules the pre-determined wants of society.

If society decide it was just after-the-fact then that's fine with me, but it's not a situation that should arise unless under extraordinary circumstances. This was not extraordinary circumstances (I'm taking about this incident, not the riot as a whole).

You have no idea what circumstances they were.

Seachmall

Seanbeag1 wrote:

You have no idea what circumstances they were.

What extraordinary circumstance could have warranted such a reaction, do tell.

What I saw was cyclists cycling down the street when they were rushed by police. Noone was in immediate danger, and any serious crime commited beforehand should have been dealt with by the law, and clearly no serious crime was committed as they let them go.

Monty Burnz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Do you think it's a coincidence that this flare up happens as the cuts are hammering the lowest classes the most, with education getting more expensive, youth centres and activities being closed, and depressed areas getting virtually no investment?

Yes. What cuts are you referring to? Please be specific. Was it cutting children's allowance for wealthy people? Was it changes to illness benefit so that you can only claim it for a year after a doctor says you should be able to go back into the workplace?

Which cuts?

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Luxuries and necessities are not the same thing. Hence why anyone who compares cutting funding for upper class pastimes to "closing schools and hospitals" literally hasn't got a clue what they're talking about.

Since when did opera become 'upper class'? I suppose I can't listen to rap because I'm middle class?
I note that the looters didn't seem too keen on robbing necessities, focussing more on Bang & Olufsen and luxury clothes brands.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I appreciate culture just as much as anyone else, but for f*cks sake isn't it obvious, given the choice between cutting cultural spending or slapping another £5,000 on students tuition fees, which is the lesser of two evils?!

To you think that 2 * 5000 * the number of students in Britain is how much money is put into opera? If there are 200,000 students, that's 20 billion pounds. Their operas must have high production values.

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm suggesting that it's an absolute disgrace to be cutting the latter while still spending on for former. An absolute disgrace.

That's because it's your definition of what is a luxury and what isn't. Like I said what next? I'd consider government sponsored youth clubs to be somewhat of a luxury? Now where do we go?

hatrickpatrick

prinz wrote: »

50 applicants for every vacancy lol. They have it tough alright. For the rest of us it was 1 applicant for every 1 vacancy of course. There are sectors in the Irish economy where 50 applicants to every vacancy would be a godsend. The people aren't out burning down Lidl's etc however.

That's because it's almost impossible to mobilize the Irish people to get off their backsides and take part in any form of dissent whatsoever. If the general Irish population wasn't as apathetic as it is, we may never have ended up in the situation THIS country is in, in the first place.

Btw just how exactly does looting and destroying business contribute more vacancies?

It doesn't, it is merely an outlet for pent up rage.

MagicSean

Seachmall wrote: »

And you do? What extraordinary circumstance could have warranted such a reaction, do tell.

If the cops were made aware that the people they charged were armed.

Happyman42

sensibleken wrote: »

You know, it is customary, not to mention good manners, for you to back up your own arguements with said studies and not expect others to do it for you. Otherwise it comes accross as nonsense

Oh come on...the field is that big and the choice is enormous.

Try these terms in Google
Alienation in Modern British Society pdf

try this one even
ghettoes of the mind in british society pdf

absolutely loads of stuff on the net.

Amirani

prinz wrote: »

Restrain him, and then what? Wait around for a couple of hours holding his hand waiting for a van to come? Which may or may not be petrol bombed/stoned etc on the way?

If they think he poses a serious threat then yes, that's the only responsible thing they can do. Giving him a few kicks and letting him wander off to loot some other business afterwards isn't going to solve anything.

ceadaoin.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Or they could, you know, stop pandering to the almost taxless upper class and stop targeting the already downtrodden first whenever cuts have to be made?
How about instead of closing that youth centre you halve the subsidies given to the Royal Opera House for instance? The people who frequent it can WELL afford to fund it themselves.

Almost taxless? My partner pays 40% tax on his earnings and he is far from upper class. The higher rate is 50%, which I think is pretty high. You seem to be saying that people who have worked hard to earn good money should pay even more tax yet not receive any of the benefits of that tax?

joseph brand

Seachmall wrote: »

The cops did **** all the first few days. In this instance they should've thrown the scumbag in the back of a van and let him spend a night in the cells if they were full sure he was partaking in the riots. Even get him convicted for theft/vandilism/whatever. You think he gives a **** about a few smacks? I've taken worse beatings than that and had little more than a few cuts and bruises the next morning.

This isn't a case of the bleeding heart brigade, it's a case of people doing their jobs to sort this out but instead of worsening the situation (what do you think is gonna happen when rioters see that video given they already argue they're fighting the injustice of police brutality?)

I understand what you are saying about the beatings, but to arrest them takes cops off the street (which has been mentioned several times). And their job, when dressed in riot gear, is to stay on the street, not in the front seats of a van, and then hours in a cop shop. These guys will just get ASBOS or a slap on the proverbial wrist. The cops know this.

Monty Burnz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It was an example of NON ESSENTIAL SPENDING versus NECESSITY.
Opera House = luxury.
School/hospital = NECESSITY.

I'm suggesting that it's an absolute disgrace to be cutting the latter while still spending on for former. An absolute disgrace.

As an analogy, it'd be like me as a breadwinner not buying school books for my kids because I "can't afford them" while keeping my season tickets for Croke Park.

So not a single cent should be spent on anything of cultural value or entertainment value? Bear in mind that the state is not run entirely for the benefit of chavs - it's supposed to be run for everyone. It would be nice if the taxes of those who have an interest in culture found their way into culture. What a grey world you would have us live in.

hatrickpatrick

prinz wrote: »

That's because it's your definition of what is a luxury and what isn't. Like I said what next? I'd consider government sponsored youth clubs to be somewhat of a luxury? Now where do we go?

If it's a choice between cutting those and cutting education or health, I completely and totally agree, they are a luxury.
I'm talking about priorities for spending here. It's not a black and white issue of "somethings good, some things bad", it's more like a scale. And the things at the very bottom of the scale of necessity should be cut before ANYTHING else.

One of those things is subsidy which benefits only a tiny proportion of the population.

hatrickpatrick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So not a single cent should be spent on anything of cultural value or entertainment value? Bear in mind that the state is not run entirely for the benefit of chavs - it's supposed to be run for everyone. It would be nice if the taxes of those who have an interest in culture found their way into culture. What a grey world you would have us live in.

"It would be nice if the taxes of those who have an interest in culture found their way into culture"

100% agreed. But if it's a choice between that and somebody dying because the local A&E just got axed?

Monty Burnz

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Almost taxless? My partner pays 40% tax on his earnings and he is far from upper class. The higher rate is 50%, which I think is pretty high. You seem to be saying that people who have worked hard to earn good money should pay even more tax yet not receive any of the benefits of that tax?

I think that he believes that only billionaires attend operas. Odd, because I saw f*** all billionaires in Cork Opera house when I was a student.

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's because it's almost impossible to mobilize the Irish people to get off their backsides and take part in any form of dissent whatsoever. If the general Irish population wasn't as apathetic as it is, we may never have ended up in the situation THIS country is in, in the first place..

Yeah, I'll take the apathy and the fact that I still have a job and that my workplace wasn't burned out overnight thanks.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It doesn't, it is merely an outlet for pent up rage.

So you have all this pent up rage, and the outlet is to go rob a few phones, runners, couple of packets of doritos, and oh rob a hurt boy while you're at it.

sensibleken

Happyman42 wrote: »

Oh come on...the field is that big and the choice is enormous.

Try these terms in Google
Alienation in Modern British Society pdf

try this one even
ghettoes of the mind in british society pdf

absolutely loads of stuff on the net.

Im not doing your homework for you. If you have a point to make, make it and provide the evidence yourself.

Google 'presenting evidence'

Seachmall

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

If the cops were made aware that the people they charged were armed.

Presumably with knives, then that would be a pretty serious crime. Walking down the street with a knife on a normal day in England is a mandatory court date, during a riot is easily intent. I believe that is a mandatory prison sentence. By letting them go they do absolutely nothing to protect the community and make the situation a whole lot worse.

And surely they should have searched them all if that were the case?

Absolutely nothing is achieved and things are made so much worse by beating the kid.

Wertz

joseph brand wrote: »

Rioter:" Nahh mean man, I izz just tryin to rob a car and terrorise a family nome sayn, and like yeah, this pig cums up and starts hittin me, it ain't proper man yeah".

That was in Manchester not London....which is kind of the point. None of the Met's riot squads were cracking skulls for fear of this type of reaction even after days of unrest...meanwhile oop norf they don't take kindly to any of this southern wankery about rights and think thievin' scallies just need a good pasting to wise them up, and it's best to lay down the law within hours of the sh*t starting in their city...

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not an enviable role. Not their place to dish it out, but you can see why they did...but they should really arrest them after the beating and let a judge sort it out.

Monty Burnz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

"It would be nice if the taxes of those who have an interest in culture found their way into culture"

100% agreed. But if it's a choice between that and somebody dying because the local A&E just got axed?

Um...that's a bit of a strawman, isn't it?

The complaint was that money was being spent on cultural things when it should have been spent on the rioters.

ShadowHearth

i only now had a chance to see some youtube stuff on this riot... ****ing horrible...

all this was just an excuse to looting.

funny enought, i bet 90% of looters and rioters will be out to pick up theyr welfare check...

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

One of those things is subsidy which benefits only a tiny proportion of the population.

You mean like when they pour money into providing amenities in disadvantaged areas and the amenities get destroyed fairly quickly. Yeah, what proportion of the population benefits from that exactly? I'd rather have tax money going on things which people respect and take care of.

hatrickpatrick

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think that he believes that only billionaires attend operas. Odd, because I saw f*** all billionaires in Cork Opera house when I was a student.

It was merely an example of non essential government spending, which remains even though essential spending is being hacked at.

Paparazzo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It doesn't, it is merely an outlet for pent up rage.

Ah, here, are you living in cloud cuckoo land? Notice the way the "rage" is in the form of robbing shops with the best stuff and mugging people? Did you hear any of the guys rioting interview? They even said themselves its a way to rob stuff and the police can do nothing

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It was merely an example of non essential government spending, which remains even though essential spending is being hacked at.

You mean like in Ireland where the social welfare spending has increased hugely over the last few years? Maybe tackle that money pit as the reason why your A&E services are being cut.

Monty Burnz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It was merely an example of non essential government spending, which remains even though essential spending is being hacked at.

You tell the people employed by the opera house that their jobs are inessential. I still don't understand this idea that throwing yet more money at the chavs is the solution. Throwing a lot hasn't worked: why not try a different approach?

Monty Burnz

Paparazzo wrote: »

Ah, here, are you living in cloud cuckoo land? Notice the way the "rage" is in the form of robbing shops with the best stuff and mugging people? Did you hear any of the guys rioting interview? They even said themselves its a way to rob stuff and the police can do nothing

You have to read between the lines to get to the true meaning of the words of these noble savages.

jmayo

Happyman42 wrote: »

Sure we'll just kill them all! :rolleyes: That'll cure it.

I would be in favour of punishment ala Singapore, but did I ever say kill them all ?
So please next time leave out the sarcastic hyperbole.

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

if i seen 10 humans attacking 2 cops i would think it completely wrong,

but my guess is it would not happen they would be hangin back and know they were in a pickle and get the fook out of there,

have a look back on the 1st few nights, will you get me the video where there are 2 cops getting kicked and busted on the head by 10 humans

No there weren't cops getting kicked, but there were totally defenseless people being mugged and robbed.
Maybe some of the cops remember a colleague of theirs being hacked to death in 1985 by rioters in London ?
Ever hear the old saying "If you live the sword you ..." ?

Happyman42 wrote: »

Generation upon generation have been marginalised and disenfranchised, that is beyond doubt and you can find numerous studies if you look for them.

Ah yes the poor misfortunates.
And yes there have been numerous studies done by bleeding heart liberals who think the rest of us are reposnsible for others not getting off their ars*s.
According to your criteria I bet you would find people like Alan Sugar was born marginalised and disenfranchised.
Then again he worked hard and made something of his life whilst others chose to look for someone to blame and hand them things.

Ah yes we should all understand that these people have a right to rebel when they are not being handed what is their by rights.
You see how easy it is to do sarcasm.

Happyman42 wrote: »

You cannot put these events down to one round of cuts, you have to do the research.... if it was a genuine question.
If the government just push these people back into the ghettoes (brick and mortar and mindset ones) then expect it to erupt again and again. Sooner or later somebody or some government is going to have to deal with these people as people, not as chavs or scumbags etc etc. In fact remedial work will have to be done on those who call others Chavs or Scum...just like what was done with words like Queer, ******, Paddy, Mick etc

Fook me pink.
You now reckon Chavs is a discriminatory term like Queer or N****.


BTW was Elvis singing about a bricks and mortar ghetto or a mindset one ?

hatrickpatrick

prinz wrote: »

You mean like in Ireland where the social welfare spending has increased hugely over the last few years?

How many cheats are there? How much cheaper would it be if it was properly policed, I wonder?
How many cheats combined cost as much as the Roscommon A&E unit?