London and UK riots (started in Tottenham 10:30PM, 6th Aug)

murphthesmurf

I lived around 3 miles outside of West Bromwich, where there was rioting last night. Over the past few yrs there has been millions thrown at the place. A nice new shiny bus station, re-done all the road network around the town, built a 300 squillion pound arts hall, health centre, modernized the blocks of flats and hanged nice decorations on the outside, plant flower beds on the traffic islands. The bus routes are serviced by almost brand new buses, while the rest of the surrounding areas made do with 20+ yr old rust buckets. Many new businesses opened up around the area on the many new industrial areas. What difference did it make? Sweet F A. The arts centre is vandalized on a daily basis, the same goes for the bus station and all the buses. There is litter dropped everywhere as it always has been. There's plenty for the youth to do, youth centres, cinema, bowling alley, snooker halls, YMCA, leisure centre, etc etc. There is no excuse for them to be doing what they did, absolutely none what so ever. People need to accept that some people are just scum, when we can all learn to accept this, then maybe we can start to deal with them.
Using a few examples of teachers assistants being nabbed looting does not mean the crowds were made up of honest educated individuals. These are just 1 or 2 minorities that are singled out. 99% of the people committing the offences are scum, pure and simple. No amount of youth projects, no amount of outreach workers, no amount of pc lefties will fix them. You can take a horse to a well, but you can't make him drink. All these people are given the opportunity to drink all through there life from the day they are born to the day they will die.
Yes pear pressure, bad parenting etc etc has a big impact on them. But pear pressure can be on all of us. I went to school with quite a few people who grew up to be scum. We all had the same opportunity, we all had similar influences. I managed to get a job etc, why didn't they. They didn't because they couldn't be arsed to put the effort in. Its so much quicker and easier to steal or deal drugs.
A lad I worked with once was from a carribean family. He told me how strict his parents were, and how most carribean families are this way. He told how if he ever answered back or bought trouble home he would get a right good hiding from his mom. He worked a 9 to 5 job the same as me, yet in his spare time he dealt drugs and anything else he could get his hands on. He did it because he was greedy and lazy and wanted what he couldn't have, simple. The fact he was black is neither here nor there, I'm just using him as an example that, even with a good up bringing and opportunities given to him, he still chose to be scum.
People continue to come up with so called solutions. Each one has to be more 'intelligent' than the last. Only when we start to accept what they are and treat them accordingly will we get anywhere.
England has become far far too soft and liberal. I don't believe it will ever be mended, it's just too broke.
Many many things have changed over the past quarter of a century since the 1985 riots, people who say it hasn't are full of ****e. It's become extreme in England where racial equality is involved. Even a 'black board' isn't a black board anymore, it's now a drawing or writing board. The Baa Baa Black Sheep nursery rhyme was banned in schools and changed to Baa Baa Rainbow Sheep FFS!! There is much less racism today than there was when I was a kid. In fact I'd say it's gone way too far. It is now often seen as the case that people from ethnic backgrounds have more rights than white people, and I'd agree. The only thing these riots will do is increase the number of votes for the likes of the BNP, and will undo a lot of the work that has been done over the years.

3ndahalfof6

Knasher wrote: »

The description on the video says they were being followed via helicopter from a riot.

bad decision making then, taking so many cops from the serious situation to deal with the minor one.

Mint Sauce

foxinsox wrote: »

If there is a shortage of places in prisons in the UK, I have a great solution.

Find an uninhabited island (rock) off the coast of England, further north the better (colder).

Ship all the looters/rioters/thieves/thugs to this island to serve their sentences.

They are only allowed wear the clothes they were wearing while looting - hoodies are great for extreme cold

For food they only get Tesco brand rice.
One lighter between every five people.
One roll of bog roll each on arrival.
No guards - leave them to amuse each other on the island.


Oh.. and when their sentence is finished they get to swim home.

Oddly there are plenty of space in Scotish prisons. No swim home though.

Hard labour is what is needed, I could say that some of those looters have never worked a day in their lives, but as the pictures show (i) a Currys employee being one of the looters, (ii) revelations that one of them was a school mentor and a volenteer for homeless hostel, your class does not dictate how you behave.

Monty Burnz

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Using a few examples of teachers assistants being nabbed looting does not mean the crowds were made up of honest educated individuals. These are just 1 or 2 minorities that are singled out. 99% of the people committing the offences are scum, pure and simple.

To be fair, everyone taking part were scummers - if you are educated and working, you probably have even less of an excuse than the chavs.

Latchy

Happyman42 wrote: »

The police abused their powers over and over again and they had to be curtailed. The answer is not more police powers but responsible and well monitored policing.

My simple answer to you is this .We never needed the police before as much as we do now ,if it isin't obious to you already , they are the first and last line between total anarchy ( bar calling in the army )

foxinsox

irish-stew wrote: »

Oddly there are plenty of space in Scotish prisons. No swim home though.

Nah.. not really fair to dump them on the Scottish people!

And prisons guards would be needed then.


I like the idea of them swimming home in their trackies covered in seagull crap!

Latchy

irish-stew wrote: »

Oddly there are plenty of space in Scotish prisons. No swim home though.

Hard labour is what is needed, I could say that some of those looters have never worked a day in their lives, but as the pictures show (i) a Currys employee being one of the looters, (ii) revelations that one of them was a school mentor and a volenteer for homeless hostel, your class does not dictate how you behave.

Some of the Manchester rioters last night were indentified as coming from respectable , middle class , familys so it's not all about one class of people by any means no .

Knasher

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

bad decision making then, taking so many cops from the serious situation to deal with the minor one.

Perhaps, but then I have no idea what time this event took place or even where beyond it being Manchester. It is entirely possible what the main part of the riot was broken up and that the police were trying to ensure they don't regroup (which is what is happening in London quite a lot). So I'm not going to make any judgement if this was the best allocation of police resources, especially considering the volatility and fluidity of the situation.

The fact that you seem eager to place blame on the police no matter the context really does say a lot though.

Mint Sauce

Just seen this on the Guardian Website

7.43pm: A 20-year old woman has been charged after allegedly posting a Facebook invite to a "riot" in Wakefield.

The woman was charged under the Serious Offences Act 2007 and has been bailed to appear before Wakefield Magistrates on August 24, said a West Yorkshire Police spokeswoman.

7.40pm: Severin Carrell, our Scotland correspondent, writes that two teenagers have been remanded in jail after appearing in court in Scotland charged with using Facebook to "incite riots" in Glasgow and Dundee.

Their arrests follow intensive surveillance of social networking sites by police forces across the UK after several services, including Twitter, Facebook and the BlackBerry smartphone messaging service were used to orchestrate much of the urban violence over the last four days.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-fifth-night-live

Just shows, be careful what you post on line.

whiteandlight

I followed this blog for the last two days. Check out this report

http://blogs.journalism.co.uk/editors/2011/08/10/its-gone-viral-how-a-students-riot-liveblog-brought-a-million-views-in-a-day/

Knasher

foxinsox wrote: »

If there is a shortage of places in prisons in the UK, I have a great solution.

Find an uninhabited island (rock) off the coast of England, further north the better (colder).

Ship all the looters/rioters/thieves/thugs to this island to serve their sentences.

They are only allowed wear the clothes they were wearing while looting - hoodies are great for extreme cold

For food they only get Tesco brand rice.
One lighter between every five people.
One roll of bog roll each on arrival.
No guards - leave them to amuse each other on the island.


Oh.. and when their sentence is finished they get to swim home.

They would probably need to keep them segregated by gender though. Or else we could end up with another Australia on our hands. :P

Amirani

Edited post.

skeleton_boy

http://chzdailywhat.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/b70e031b-9a61-42ff-8d41-75514dc72238.jpg

I lol'd

dr.bollocko

niallsparky wrote: »

Great point you've made there.

He's been banned.
Lets leave it at that.

Happyman42

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, I think he realises everyone knows he was talking out of his arse with the 'race of chavs' stuff, and now he's only trolling us.

Keep it up folks. :rolleyes:
You are saying there is no difference between Politics as practised by Fine Gael TD's (you can capitalise it or not but I would generally) and the politics between a married couple?
Or are we gonna be pedantic about that and pretend that you don't know what I mean?


Can we move on?

Monty Burnz

Happyman42 wrote: »

Keep it up folks. :rolleyes:
You are saying there is no difference between Politics as practised by Fine Gael TD's (you can capitalise it or not but I would generally) and the politics between a married couple?
Or are we gonna be pedantic about that and pretend that you don't know what I mean?


Can we move on?

We can move on, but I still have no idea what point you were making - genuinely. I never once mentioned politics, and I don't accept that there is a 'race of chavs' - to be a chav is a lifestyle choice, not something you are born with. Hence you can have brothers with the same upbringing, one of whom is a chav and the other isn't. I've seen it.

And I've no problem saying that I don't respect chavs because of the way they behave and their depressing worldview.

Mint Sauce

Latchy wrote: »

Some of the Manchester rioters last night were indentified as coming from respectable , middle class , familys so it's not all about one class of people by any means no .

The same statment can be lumped in with the race arguement in relation to some of the disturbances in london in areas that I would be familar with, or know well.

Clapham - A multi cultural working class area, which over the years has developed into a well to do dessirable area.

Croydon and Sutton - Multi cultural, mix of classes.

Ealing - Another mutli culteral dessirable area.

Wimbledon - Where there was a small number of minor incidenets. A very dessirable generally trouble free area of SW london, with working and middle class familys.

Wimbledon Village - Again a small number of minor incidenets. An extreamaly dessirable area, predominantly white, middle class.

Take a look at some of the pictures the met have released, and you will see a diverse spread of people that they are looking for.

foxinsox

Anyone see the live report in Birmingham just now on Sky news?

Everyone just running..

Anyone know whats going on?

Happyman42

Latchy wrote: »

My simple answer to you is this .We never needed the police before as much as we do now ,if it isin't obious to you already , they are the first and last line between total anarchy ( bar calling in the army )

Yes they are needed but they have enough powers for now. DO we really want to go back to summary justice from police??? Really?
And remember the police have a huge credibility deficit with these people already.
It's only a wet week since both the Head of the Met and his assistant had to resign in the face of corruption allegations.

Paparazzo

Happyman42 wrote: »

Race is classification of humans into large and distinct populations or groups by factors such as heritable phenotypic characteristics or geographic ancestry, but also often influenced by and correlated with traits such as appearance, culture, ethnicity, and socio-economic status.



Pay attention to the last few terms in the definition above. I used the word racist with a small 'r'.
Please be pedantic with somebody else.

You think chavs are a race? Congratulations, you just posted the most idiotic comment I've ever read on boards! A chav doesn't have to be working class either. That leaves "appearence", and it's not a biological physical appearence, it's just clothes. So putting on a hoodie and I change my race!

norris_minor

blup

norris_minor

the skanger culture also heralded a dramatically higher instance of broken homes. one such reason was fathers were less likely to stick around and father the child they had sown; often with a bun in another oven whilst mothers oft wished to have the child on part maternal instinct, but mostly with a view to lone parent's allowance and other benefits whilst the father was done away with. Discarded. mostly to his satisfaction so he could philander elsewhere in the event he not already been doing so.. this culture is not tied down to one class, especially since it permeated all walks of life though inevitably it is mostly the domain of the less well-off. who are now poorer of mind to add to their financial woes

..and all this, to the soundtrack of rave/hip-hop and it's own many offshoots. this culture is now the very backbone of society; went viral many years ago and dictated / influenced fasion and mainstream lifestyle to a profound effect.. indeed before many here were born; those who never saw it's emergence and gradual development into the society standard and are left clutching at straws with the very concept of a skanger and their unwitting chav vision.

Ruu_Old

This is so, so sad, the depths some people will go to. I used to walk along the bridge all the time. Poor lad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krarW0RPMWk

Happyman42

Paparazzo wrote: »

You think chavs are a race? Congratulations, you just posted the most idiotic comment I've ever read on boards! A chav doesn't have to be working class either. That leaves "appearence", and it's not a biological physical appearence, it's just clothes. So putting on a hoodie and I change my race!

Nope...I never said Chav's were a race. I swear :rolleyes:

3ndahalfof6

Knasher wrote: »

Perhaps, but then I have no idea what time this event took place or even where beyond it being Manchester. It is entirely possible what the main part of the riot was broken up and that the police were trying to ensure they don't regroup (which is what is happening in London quite a lot). So I'm not going to make any judgement if this was the best allocation of police resources, especially considering the volatility and fluidity of the situation.

The fact that you seem eager to place blame on the police no matter the context really does say a lot though.

it might show i was bitten a few times, but i was looking at the situation taking on board what i have seen from the start of the problems,

one minute 40/50 cops being charged by 80/100 rioters they do not rush in and drop some of them to the ground continuing to stick it to them,

then i see 2 guys on bikes 10 cops and the cops charge taking the bikers to the ground and sticking it to them,

so my thinking on the situation is based on all i have seen since it started,

as in so much how the cops react to things being in their favor,

they have got the riot gear, they have got the batons, so 50 on 50 they should come out on top, but they would never get involved if the odds are not on their side.

but this will probably still be the wrong type of thinking.

over use of force to me in that particular situation and i wont be able to see it any other way.

AskMyChocolate

Lollipops23 wrote: »

So? Every generation of youths has their own problems. You could argue that it's the overly-PC "listening" and paying too much attention to every little problem of every teenager in the country that gave us this mess. "We want, we see, we take". The lack of empathy for others demonstrated by this mob is just terrifying.



What exactly about the people rampaging the last few days has suggested to you that they could be trusted with readily available E and Coke...?


You're defo on to something there amigo.....

Please don't write me down as a PC liberal, but surely this is just as applicable to the Goldman Sachs/City of London/Anglo Irish traders (thieves) who have taken more from decent hard-working people and pensioners over the last two decades than these idiots could do in a millenium.

Does the fact that they wore suits and did it (are still doing it) legally make them any less immoral? Does it make them less of a scumbag?

The fact that they don't use raw violence and tend to be sneak-thiefs rather than muggers, does it make them more acceptable in your eyes?

More pensioners lives have been ruined, and more pensioners live in fear because of this handful of "astute financiers", than all the feral scumbags put together.

How do you feel about these "traders"? Do you think they should be shot? And if you met one of them at a dinner-party, would you treat them in the same way as you would treat a human trafficker or a child pornographer?

Monty Burnz

Happyman42 wrote: »

Nope...I never said Chav's were a race. I swear :rolleyes:

Then why did you object to my using the word 'chav' saying:

Happyman42 wrote: »

I love the way you and others try and wriggle out of accusations of racist behaviour. You described Chavs as....

And you provided us with a Wikipedia definition of 'race'?

Anyway, I'll let it go.

Mint Sauce

Only earlier today I was reading that the Authorites were trying to discourage vigilantes taking maters into their own hands and let the police do their work, now it seams they are making allowances.

Things could get interesting if vigilantes are allowed to continue and then brought to to court over their actions. As long as they are able to distingush just a group of lads looking dodgy or simply minding their own business, and a group of lads actually putting them at risk.

8.08pm: Scotland Yard has effectively sanctioned vigilante action against suspected rioters and looters, issuing advice that they can be beaten with weapons if they are honestly thought to pose a danger, writes my colleague Vikram Dodd.

In a document sent to businesses in the capital, police gave explicit guidance on what constitutes "reasonable force", saying people do not have to wait to be attacked if they are in their own home or business.

With police numbers stretched the limit, the Met said if someone "honestly and instinctively" believed they, their business or another person was in danger, they could use force.

The guidance says: "You are not expected to make fine judgements over the level of force you use in the heat of the moment."

It adds a weapon can be used and says: " The more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defence."

The Met guidance says use of a weapon could also be lawful and constitute reasonable force.

It is understood the guidance was issued after business owners asked for advice about how much force they could use to defend themselves and their property.

The three men who died in Birmingham were believed to have been defending their property.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-fifth-night-live

jobeenfitz

over use of force to me in that particular situation and i wont be able to see it any other way.[/QUOTE]


not using enough force on the scumbags

Latchy

irish-stew wrote: »

The same statment can be lumped in with the race arguement in relation to some of the disturbances in london in areas that I would be familar with, or know well.

Clapham - A multi cultural working class area, which over the years has developed into a well to do dessirable area.

Croydon and Sutton - Multi cultural, mix of classes.

Ealing - Another mutli culteral dessirable area.

Wimbledon - Where there was a small number of minor incidenets. A very dessirable generally trouble free area of SW london, with working and middle class familys.

Wimbledon Village - Again a small number of minor incidenets. An extreamaly dessirable area, predominantly white, middle class.

Take a look at some of the pictures the met have released, and you will see a diverse spread of people that they are looking for.

It would be the same in the other citys to where it's not always the sterotypical hooligan involved but people of more affluent means who exploit it knowing that if they get away, it's the ghettos scummers who will take most blame . I've only seen photos online with various newspapers but will check out the mets

foxinsox wrote: »

Anyone see the live report in Birmingham just now on Sky news?

Everyone just running..

Anyone know whats going on?

Not looking at the moement sorry but will be in a bit

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes they are needed but they have enough powers for now. DO we really want to go back to summary justice from police??? Really?
And remember the police have a huge credibility deficit with these people already.
It's only a wet week since both the Head of the Met and his assistant had to resign in the face of corruption allegations.

There's a lot of very expierenced and well meaning ,front line policemen who know the boundrys between good and bad policing and yes they are accountable for their actions and do need to be monitered but in this type public disorder give me 'get tough over soft touch ' .

The police have in some places being made to look foolish when in a lot of cases it's because they have had theit hands tied .Sometimes you have to take the kid gloves off .