London and UK riots (started in Tottenham 10:30PM, 6th Aug)

K-9 · 12-08-2011 4:47pm

jmayo wrote: »

Yes remove them from anyone who continously engages in anti social behaviour.
If you want free things handed to you from the rest of society then respect the rest of society.

It is for exactly this reason you have serial anti-social behaviour from people who are moved from social housing area to another.
Give someone a couple of chances and if you continue in your anti-social behaviour you lose all rights.
FFS at the moment it is like the catholic church are in charge of social housing where troublesome families/individuals are moved on to wreak havok on more unsuspecting people.

Crime will go up because these types tend to be robbers and druggies.

While Cameron cuts police numbers and prison spaces?

It's all well and good preaching law and order but the Tories just talk about it. Things will get worse in these areas and the Tories will keep preaching and never learning.

inforfun · 12-08-2011 4:50pm

Youngest 11 ... Oldest 58

monara · 12-08-2011 4:53pm

up for anything wrote: »

Maybe the people in government should work a little harder to earn their senseless loot by making sure that the country they are running can offer worthwhile jobs to those that want and need them.

I agree. The obscene salaries and crass stupidity and ineffectiveness of our political leaders are partial causes of the riots. And everyone gains in self-respect and dignity by working.

Ghandee · 12-08-2011 4:53pm

Josef Fritzel has been the latest person to have spoken out in anger at the recent riots, blaming the cause on irresponsible parenting, he said "you never saw my kids out on the streets like that"

Morlar · 12-08-2011 4:54pm

inforfun wrote: »

Youngest 11 ... Oldest 58

Chelsea Ives 18 Westminster London F Olympic ambassador 8/11/2011 Burglary, violent disorder and attacking a police car Pleaded not guilty

Chariots of Fire or what. You go girl.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 4:54pm

Morlar wrote: »

If you want a job and believe you are genuinely discriminated against on the basis of your postcode then send an application using a relatives, or a friends address.

If you really want the job and have the right attitude, and a factor like 'postcode discrimination' really is the only reason you don't get the job then it is not some kind of an unsurmountable obstacle.

Any job interview you go for you need to dress appropriately, this goes for everyone all the time.

:eek::eek: unbelievable!

Morlar · 12-08-2011 4:56pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

:eek::ee unbelievable!

What is unbelievable ? eek.

LondonIrish90 · 12-08-2011 4:56pm

Morlar wrote: »

Chelsea Ives 18 Westminster London F Olympic ambassador 8/11/2011 Burglary, violent disorder and attacking a police car Pleaded not guilty

Chariots of Fire or what. You go girl.

She was spotted by her mum on CCTV in the act and has still got the front to plead not guilty :eek:

Morlar · 12-08-2011 4:58pm

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

She was spotted by her mum on CCTV in the act and has still got the front to plead not guilty :eek:

It's a hard knock life alright.

Going through that list I'd say it's 85-90% unemployed, approx 5% student and the others sundry including a handful of employed and various clever ' charity volunteer' types of occupational statuses.

monara · 12-08-2011 4:59pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

You have nailed it on the head, the misconception from most people is that genuine Socialism is about people being supported by the state for doing nothing, the reality is, Socialism is about all of Society contributing how they can to the best of their ability & all sharing the product of that equally.

Anyone who is able bodied & able minded have an obligation to work towards creating a Society that is fair for all regardless of their ability, i would go out on a limb here & say that most of the young people involved in the riots just cant see a way to break the cycle of their impoverishment.

blaming the parents is a lame argument also, how can a parent be responsible if they were 'trapped' in the same pit of personal social deprivation & unable to offer or guide them as effectiveely as we all would like.

I am not saying that you will by default act this way if you are from these areas involved in the riots, but this Social deprivation is the product of this system, i, and these young people, see no solution as to how to change society by a contiuation of the same system.

The chief of police in scotland was on the BBC news last night & he pretty much said the same, cameron can blow all hot in the commons & say he will hunt them down & they WILL go to prison, but in his words (scottish head of police) How will that change anything at all?

It wont.

I agree with your idea of genuine Socialism. A fundamental right of every person is the right to work, and to express themselves as best they can through that work. If only our politicians would see things this way.

Happyman42 · 12-08-2011 5:01pm

Morlar wrote: »

What is unbelievable ? eek.

The simplicity.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 5:03pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

including the young people caught up in the engagment of the riots also.

That has to be the funniest attempt at using the passive voice to put distance between people and their actions that I've seen in years.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 5:13pm

monara wrote: »

I agree with your idea of genuine Socialism. A fundamental right of every person is the right to work, and to express themselves as best they can through that work. If only our politicians would see things this way.

Do you think that any of the previous disastrous attempts to introduce socialism were carried out by anyone other than foolish idealists who also dreamed of creating a 'genuine socialist' society? But they all ended badly, didn't they?

Here's a list of former and current communist/socialist states - pick out the successful ones:

People's Republic of China (since October 1, 1949)[1]
Republic of Cuba (since January 1, 1959) [2]
Lao People's Democratic Republic (since December 2, 1975)[3][4][5]
Socialist Republic of Vietnam (officially in reunified Vietnam since July 2, 1976, but in the North since 1954) [6]
Democratic People's Republic of Korea (since September 9, 1948[7], see
Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (April 27, 1978 - April 28, 1992)
Socialist People's Republic of Albania (January 1, 1946 - March 22, 1992)
People's Republic of Angola (November 11, 1975 - August 27, 1992)
People's Republic of Benin (November 30, 1975 - March 1, 1990)
People's Republic of Bulgaria (September 15, 1946 - December 7, 1990)
Chinese Soviet Republic (November 7, 1931 - October 10, 1934)
People's Republic of the Congo (January 3, 1970 - March 15, 1992)
Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (July 11, 1960 - March 29, 1990)
People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (September 10, 1987 - May 27, 1991)
Finnish Democratic Republic (December 1, 1939 - March 12, 1940)
German Democratic Republic (October 7, 1949 - October 3, 1990)
Political Committee of National Liberation (Greece) (December 24, 1947 - August 28, 1949)
People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada (March 13, 1979 - October 25, 1983)
People's Republic of Hungary (August 20, 1949 - October 23, 1989)
Democratic Kampuchea (April 4, 1976 - January 7, 1979)
People's Republic of Kampuchea (January 7, 1979 - October 23, 1991)
Mongolian People's Republic (November 24, 1924 - February 12, 1992)
People's Republic of Mozambique (June 25, 1975 - December 1, 1990)
People's Republic of Poland (June 28, 1945 - July 19, 1989)
People's Republic of Romania (December 30, 1947 - December 21, 1989)
Somali Democratic Republic (October 21, 1976 - January 26, 1991)
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (December 30, 1922 - December 26, 1991)
Tuvan People's Republic (August 14, 1921 - October 11, 1944)
Democratic Republic of Vietnam (September 2, 1945 - July 2, 1976)
People's Democratic Republic of Yemen(November 30, 1967 - May 22, 1990)
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (November 29, 1943 - October 8, 1991 / April 27, 1992)

You will notice that a lot of countries that were under the thumb of the Soviets (e.g Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) aren't even in there - they were conquered by the noble socialists and only won their freedom when the Russians finally carried out a successful overthrow of their communist overlords.

monara · 12-08-2011 5:14pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's quite depressing how often this 'government - get us jobs' thing comes up. How exactly is the government supposed to get jobs for everyone?

And that's before you even get into the difficulty of finding something useful that lazy illiterates are able to and are willing to do.

Yes, you raise two very important questions. The provision of jobs would require a complete rethink of our employment/welfare office roles. Perhaps that could be another thread. But there is certainly a lot of works that could be done which would be of benefit to the community. Another thread?

I'm a little apprehensive about giving the unemployed the right to refuse work which is considered to be beneficial to the community. Some unemployed may be making lifestyle choices not to work at anything and it is clear from many of our supermarkets that foreign staff are employed in jobs which are well within the capacity of our unemployed. Perhaps another thread? To what extent should the unemployed be able to refuse to do useful work?

up for anything · 12-08-2011 5:22pm

up for anything wrote: »

Maybe the people in government should work a little harder to earn their senseless loot by making sure that the country they are running can offer worthwhile jobs to those that want and need them.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's quite depressing how often this 'government - get us jobs' thing comes up. How exactly is the government supposed to get jobs for everyone?

And that's before you even get into the difficulty of finding something useful that lazy illiterates are able to and are willing to do.

You will notice that I didn't use the phrase 'get us jobs'. A government is not supposed to get people jobs as you so succinctly put it, although most run a neat sideline in jobs for the boys. They are supposed to foster and create an economic and social climate which will result in job and business opportunities for those who want them, and there are lots of us out here who want them.

The people who don't want to work will always be a part of society. That is life, unless you want to live under a draconian regime where every bite that goes into your mouth has been weighed against your labour output.

I also think that a sweeping, generalised statement like "the difficulty of finding something useful that lazy illiterates are able to and are willing to do" adds absolutely nothing to whatever point you were trying to make. It just fosters a 'them' and 'us' attitude.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 5:28pm

up for anything wrote: »

You will notice that I didn't use the phrase 'get us jobs'. A government is not supposed to get people jobs as you so succinctly put it, although most run a neat sideline in jobs for the boys. They are supposed to foster and create an economic and social climate which will result in job and business opportunities for those who want them, and there are lots of us out here who want them.

That's how they try to run things in the US - low barriers to entry, minimal regulation.

up for anything wrote: »

The people who don't want to work will always be a part of society. That is life, unless you want to live under a draconian regime where every bite that goes into your mouth has been weighed against your labour output.

The question then is do people have a human right not to work? Genuine question. If they don't, then it's up to us to decide whether we give them taxpayers' money, or leave them to the charity of individuals and their own devices.

up for anything wrote: »

I also think that a sweeping, generalised statement like "the difficulty of finding something useful that lazy illiterates are able to and are willing to do" adds absolutely nothing to whatever point you were trying to make. It just fosters a 'them' and 'us' attitude.

There's nothing sweeping or generalized about that statement at all. I was referring to lazy illiterates specifically, and the difficulty of finding the work for them that the 'all they want is work' faction here are calling for.

monara · 12-08-2011 5:28pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Do you think that any of the previous disastrous attempts to introduce socialism were carried out by anyone other than foolish idealists who also dreamed of creating a 'genuine socialist' society? But they all ended badly, didn't they?

Here's a list of former and current communist/socialist states - pick out the successful ones:

People's Republic of China (since October 1, 1949)[1]
Republic of Cuba (since January 1, 1959) [2]
Lao People's Democratic Republic (since December 2, 1975)[3][4][5]
Socialist Republic of Vietnam (officially in reunified Vietnam since July 2, 1976, but in the North since 1954) [6]
Democratic People's Republic of Korea (since September 9, 1948[7], see
Democratic Republic of Afghanistan (April 27, 1978 - April 28, 1992)
Socialist People's Republic of Albania (January 1, 1946 - March 22, 1992)
People's Republic of Angola (November 11, 1975 - August 27, 1992)
People's Republic of Benin (November 30, 1975 - March 1, 1990)
People's Republic of Bulgaria (September 15, 1946 - December 7, 1990)
Chinese Soviet Republic (November 7, 1931 - October 10, 1934)
People's Republic of the Congo (January 3, 1970 - March 15, 1992)
Czechoslovak Socialist Republic (July 11, 1960 - March 29, 1990)
People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia (September 10, 1987 - May 27, 1991)
Finnish Democratic Republic (December 1, 1939 - March 12, 1940)
German Democratic Republic (October 7, 1949 - October 3, 1990)
Political Committee of National Liberation (Greece) (December 24, 1947 - August 28, 1949)
People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada (March 13, 1979 - October 25, 1983)
People's Republic of Hungary (August 20, 1949 - October 23, 1989)
Democratic Kampuchea (April 4, 1976 - January 7, 1979)
People's Republic of Kampuchea (January 7, 1979 - October 23, 1991)
Mongolian People's Republic (November 24, 1924 - February 12, 1992)
People's Republic of Mozambique (June 25, 1975 - December 1, 1990)
People's Republic of Poland (June 28, 1945 - July 19, 1989)
People's Republic of Romania (December 30, 1947 - December 21, 1989)
Somali Democratic Republic (October 21, 1976 - January 26, 1991)
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (December 30, 1922 - December 26, 1991)
Tuvan People's Republic (August 14, 1921 - October 11, 1944)
Democratic Republic of Vietnam (September 2, 1945 - July 2, 1976)
People's Democratic Republic of Yemen(November 30, 1967 - May 22, 1990)
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (November 29, 1943 - October 8, 1991 / April 27, 1992)

You will notice that a lot of countries that were under the thumb of the Soviets (e.g Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) aren't even in there - they were conquered by the noble socialists and only won their freedom when the Russians finally carried out a successful overthrow of their communist overlords.

Thank you for the list. Perhaps genuine socialism, like genuine Christianity, has yet to be tried. In any event, the current welfare system which condemns a large part of the able workforce to idleness certainly needs improvement. My basic point is that work is a right for all and should be open to all. And that is what should be exercising our minds.

I would welcome your views on how the present system might be improved.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 5:37pm

monara wrote: »

Thank you for the list. Perhaps genuine socialism, like genuine Christianity, has yet to be tried. In any event, the current welfare system which condemns a large part of the able workforce to idleness certainly needs improvement. My basic point is that work is a right for all and should be open to all. And that is what should be exercising our minds.

I would welcome your views on how the present system might be improved.

I've made a few suggestions a little earlier in the thread Monara. I've no idea if they have merit, but there seems precious little original thinking in this area - just the usual entrenched ideological thinking.

mickydoomsux · 12-08-2011 6:05pm

Saw this posted on another forum that i frequent and it's as if my inner voice became flesh

Linky.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 6:07pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Saw this posted on another forum that i frequent and it's as if my inner voice became flesh

That guy is a right-wing nutter. He has loads of videos along those lines.

mickydoomsux · 12-08-2011 6:12pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That guy is a right-wing nutter. He has loads of videos along those lines.

He's right on the money in this case though and the points he makes could be applied to society in this country as well.

Monty Burnz · 12-08-2011 6:13pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

He's right on the money in this case though and the points he makes could be applied to society in this country as well.

It's not impossible I guess, but I refuse to watch his videos based on offensive stuff I've seen him spout before. He's not much of a fan of Johnny Foreigner, let's put it like that.

jmayo · 12-08-2011 6:22pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yes, we do have a problem in how 'our' money is spent don't we. Now would it be such a huge leap for you to admit that social welfare has been badly distributed and used?

Yes social welfare has been badly distributed and as in this country fraud is often rife.
How we could up social welfare rates to the long term unemployed during our boom years, all the while we had to import workers is another thing that highlights how bad the system really is, would you not agree ?

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fascism is only attractive to the fascist.

And socialism or far left communism is usually only attractive to those that want other people property and money, would you not agree ?

Happyman42 wrote: »

No we aren't, we spent a lot of time pointing that out during the banking crisis.

Just because bankers and other assorted well heeled shysters, like certain politicans, get away with skimming or dodgy deals does not mean that someone should go down and destroy the local shopping centre where ordinary decent hardworking people have built businesses.
Check my opinion around the politics forum on bankers and how many times I have been infracted for my views on them and their bought political lackies.

Happyman42 wrote: »

People have been so stereotyped, eg, what postal code you use, what clothes you wear etc etc that it becomes pointless even applying for jobs. The corrosiveness of that type of discrimination (where you are from) is lost on a lot of the 'why don't they eat cake' moralists on here, even though there is ample evidence of it here in Ireland never mind the UK where it is even more prevalent.

Yet more of the usual bullsh** excuses used by those who choose to sit on their ar***s and expect others to give them their entitled handouts.

I shared with a girl from one of the worse addresses possible in Limerick, actually probably in Ireland.
She had managed to get and hold down a job in Dell.
She admitted most of her school friends had gotten pregnant, some more than once, and were on housing lists drawing the dole.
I also worked with people from other areas of Limerick that would not be considered the best addresses.
How come they were able to do it ?
Were the odds so stacked against them that they could not go out there and get jobs and build better lives ?

So less of the usual tripe excuses.

K-9 wrote: »

Crime will go up because these types tend to be robbers and druggies.

While Cameron cuts police numbers and prison spaces?

It's all well and good preaching law and order but the Tories just talk about it. Things will get worse in these areas and the Tories will keep preaching and never learning.

Maybe you might term me right wing, but the police is the last thing I would cut.
Actually prison spaces are another and I think we are sadly going down that road here.

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

She was spotted by her mum on CCTV in the act and has still got the front to plead not guilty :eek:

Fair dues to her parents who appear to be really decent people and realise that their offspring did wrong and should answer for it.
Pity that most of the other offenders parents will be harping on how their poor delinquent children are the real victims.

Also the parents of the 19 year old student who is at university and appears reasonably well to do should come out and say the same.

Morlar · 12-08-2011 6:28pm

I think it's a good thing that there will be actual consequences for these actions. Fair play to all of the local councils who respond in this manner.

http://breakingnews.ie/world/riot-suspects-parent-being-evicted-516353.html

Riot suspect's parent being evicted

12/08/2011 - 17:43:00
A London council tenant whose son has been charged in connection with riots in London is facing eviction, a council said today.

The tenant, who has not been named, was served with an eviction notice by Wandsworth Council this afternoon.

They are now believed to be the first council tenant in the country to face losing their home over the rioting and looting which blighted the nation this week.

Wandsworth Council said the tenant’s son, who has also not been named, has appeared in court charged in connection with Monday night’s disturbances in Clapham Junction.

The council said the notice is the first stage in the legal process of eviction - it warns the council will be seeking possession of the property and an application will be made to the courts seeking their eviction.

The final decision will be made by a judge sitting at the county court.

A spokesman said neither the tenant nor their son are being named “for legal reasons”.

He said the council acted immediately in the wake of local magistrates courts hearings to take tough action against tenants or members of their households who were directly involved in the disturbances.

Wandsworth Council leader Ravi Govindia said: “In Wandsworth we are determined to take the strongest possible action against any tenant or member of their household responsible for the truly shocking behaviour perpetrated on local homes and businesses earlier this week.

“There is no room on our estates for people who commit violent crimes, who show no consideration for their neighbours or harass, threaten, intimidate or cause disturbance to others.”

RichieC · 12-08-2011 6:30pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That guy is a right-wing nutter. He has loads of videos along those lines.

I'd be the first to level that critism but Pat is right just as much as he is wrong.

He's one of my favourite youtube subs.

Killer Pigeon · 12-08-2011 6:31pm

Is mise le key wrote: »

You have nailed it on the head, the misconception from most people is that genuine Socialism is about people being supported by the state for doing nothing, the reality is, Socialism is about all of Society contributing how they can to the best of their ability & all sharing the product of that equally.

Yeah, but that's not the way it works in practice. Some people are always going to end up being supported by the state for doing nothing or less than others in a socialist society (or partly socialist). The idealists would have you think that everyone would voluntarily conform for the betterment of society but this will never be the case. Socialism relies on conformity, in a way.

Many social policies implemented over the past few decades were put in place with good intentions; bettering the welfare of others so they could contribute to society with greater ease. This is not how it turned out though. Welfare state policies have given us a society that is far from equal.

Is mise le key wrote: »

Anyone who is able bodied & able minded have an obligation to work towards creating a Society that is fair for all regardless of their ability, i would go out on a limb here & say that most of the young people involved in the riots just cant see a way to break the cycle of their impoverishment.

Humans are animals, we are meant to be free and unbounded. We shouldn't have any obligations to society other than the obligations we have voluntarily bound ourselves by.

Is mise le key wrote: »

blaming the parents is a lame argument also, how can a parent be responsible if they were 'trapped' in the same pit of personal social deprivation & unable to offer or guide them as effectiveely as we all would like.

I am not saying that you will by default act this way if you are from these areas involved in the riots, but this Social deprivation is the product of this system, i, and these young people, see no solution as to how to change society by a contiuation of the same system.

Of course the parents are part of the problem, they decided to have the children did they not? These people are trapped in a culture of reliance that has existed since the welfare state in Britain was founded. They people lack the motivation to better their lives in my honest opinion. As long as they get their social welfare cheque every week they couldn't give a toss about contributing to society.

Is mise le key wrote: »

The chief of police in scotland was on the BBC news last night & he pretty much said the same, cameron can blow all hot in the commons & say he will hunt them down & they WILL go to prison, but in his words (scottish head of police) How will that change anything at all?

Well if you decide to vandalise and rob someone else's property then of course you should either pay for it or be punished. What Cameron can do is take away the culture of reliance in the lower classes of the UK by cutting welfare and so on. In the mean time he could also lower the taxes on those who create jobs (businesses). This will mean that there will be more jobs for these frustrated teenagers and that they can at last become productive.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 6:37pm

jmayo wrote: »

And socialism or far left communism is usually only attractive to those that want other people property and money, would you not agree ?

I've agreed with you on a lot of things, jmayo, but I wouldn't go as far as saying the above.

Capitalism has failed due to greed and political inertia, and I wouldn't mind giving proper socialism a go to see if it offered a better quality of life that wasn't permanently obsessed with / worried about money.

But my version of socialism involves everyone contributing SOMETHING to society, not just sponging......there was a guy on 4FM earlier on about going to the dole office "to get my money".......here's the thing, mate - it's not "YOUR" money, it's the money the state gives you as a helping hand.

Killer Pigeon · 12-08-2011 6:43pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Capitalism has failed due to greed and political inertia, and I wouldn't mind giving proper socialism a go to see if it offered a better quality of life that wasn't permanently obsessed with / worried about money.

Corporatism has failed. True capitalism has yet to be proven a failure. Those on the fiscal-left would have you thing that capitalism equates to corporatism and is thus a failure. Corporatism is state incentivised capitalism.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 6:46pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Corporatism has failed. True capitalism has yet to be proven a failure. Those on the fiscal-left would have you thing that capitalism equates to corporatism and is thus a failure. Corporatism is state incentivised capitalism.

Incorrect.

The banks failed through greed and dodgy practices LONG BEFORE they were GUARANTEED that they would be bailed out by the government.

So there was no state incentive at the time that they chose greed over common sense.....that was 100% capitalism at its worst.

manual_man · 12-08-2011 7:20pm

transfer news: Robatelly signs for spurs

London and UK riots (started in Tottenham 10:30PM, 6th Aug)

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