Electric Vehicles - Your thoughts - MotorMouth, Newstalk

Sesshoumaru

Hi Del2005. My wife and I sold our older secondhand ICE cars (2006 Citroen C2 and 2000 Audi A6) and went for one electric car for our family (2 kids as well). We're not rich, we're middle class and we have no interest in showing how green we are to our neighbours. I can afford to spend this money now on a Leaf because I didn't go crazy in the celtic tiger years. We rented then and we continue now to rent a modest home in the suburbs.

As for base loads, we need a smarter grid and I think something like this could be a step towards that.

http://www.gizmag.com/nissan-leaf-providing-household-power/19411/

If you want to bore yourself to tears you can have a look at some of my older posts on boards.ie, I'm generally pro nuclear. But I also recognise there are other ways forward.

Tax on electricity used for motor vehicles is a possibility. But either way electricity is a power source we can generate domestically. At the moment we have no known large reserves of oil. If half the cost of petrol/diesel is taxes, the other half goes back to unstable oil producing regimes.

Using a combination of renewable's, a smarter grid and maybe nuclear, we could produce our own energy for transportation.

Joe 90

Deleted User wrote: »

While I am generally pro electric vehicle and think it is a technology that holds some promise for the future I have one major reservation.

Currently, they are cheap to run because they can be charged at night taking advantage of very cheap off peak electricity rates. However, if the popularity of EVs were to increase significantly, night time would no longer be off peak for electricity as the power consumed by many thousands of households charging their EV would be comparable to the demand placed on the grid during daytime and evening. Thus, cheap night time electricity would disappear and the cost of running an EV would increase significantly.

More to the point, they are cheap to charge because the leccy ain't taxed like petrol or diesel. If they take off in any significant way the government is gonna get that tax back somehow.

Joe 90

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Hi Del2005. My wife and I sold our older secondhand ICE cars (2006 Citroen C2 and 2000 Audi A6) and went for one electric car for our family (2 kids as well). We're not rich, we're middle class and we have no interest in showing how green we are to our neighbours. I can afford to spend this money now on a Leaf because I didn't go crazy in the celtic tiger years. We rented then and we continue now to rent a modest home in the suburbs.

As for base loads, we need a smarter grid and I think something like this could be a step towards that.

http://www.gizmag.com/nissan-leaf-providing-household-power/19411/

If you want to bore yourself to tears you can have a look at some of my older posts on boards.ie, I'm generally pro nuclear. But I also recognise there are other ways forward.

Tax on electricity used for motor vehicles is a possibility. But either way electricity is a power source we can generate domestically. At the moment we have no known large reserves of oil. If half the cost of petrol/diesel is taxes, the other half goes back to unstable oil producing regimes.

Using a combination of renewable's, a smarter grid and maybe nuclear, we could produce our own energy for transportation.

What you say makes a lot of sense but I wonder just how high a percentage of imported oil is used in road transport? Probably much less than is used for heating, both industrial and domestic and the production of electricity, both industrial and domestic again. That makes a great argument on it's own for nuclear generation, never mind electric cars.

Sesshoumaru

Joe 90 wrote: »

What you say makes a lot of sense but I wonder just how high a percentage of imported oil is used in road transport? Probably much less than is used for heating, both industrial and domestic and the production of electricity, both industrial and domestic again. That makes a great argument on it's own for nuclear generation, never mind electric cars.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Energy_Balance/Provisional_2010_Energy_Balance.pdf

Looks to me like a fair chunk of oil use is in private road cars. Unless I'm reading it wrong, transportation takes the lions share, industry has a significant chunk, but is still a good bit smaller.

As I said I'm not against Nuclear. I think it could have a place in Ireland, I just think we could possibly do without it if we invested in a smart grid with EV's forming a part of that smart grid. Then again we could reap the benefits of a smart grid and find we could benefit further from nuclear power. It's certainly up for debate!

robtri

unkel wrote: »

That reply is worse than no reply

To address robtri's points:

1. The limited range of current EVs is not for everyone, but it's fine for the vast majority of people. Provided there are plenty of accessible quick charge points around the country for when people take the car for the occasional longer trip

I agree and currently we do not have anywhere near enough, so at the moment the EV is flawed when it comes to range.. like i said it would make a perfect second car in a family.

unkel wrote: »

2. Some people would argue that there is a lot more status value in driving around the first proper EV than there is in driving a low end Mercedes / Audi / BMW

true but sales figures currently show people are spending their money on the low end "premium cars" and I personally can't see that changing in favour of EV's ... but I will watch the sales figures in case I am wrong

unkel wrote: »

3. Price. With you there. If it wasn't for the massive tax payer funded subsidy, hardly anyone (except goody goody Brad Pitt and the like) would buy the car. Even nett of the subsidy, €30k is a lot of money for a small family saloon. Fair play to Sesshoumaru though for trying and reporting back here. He has the money and he hopes the figures as promised by Nissan about the battery etc. will work out. I do hope they will too

I hope they do, I personally would love an EV as a commute to car work...

Sesshoumaru

Joe 90 wrote: »

More to the point, they are cheap to charge because the leccy ain't taxed like petrol or diesel. If they take off in any significant way the government is gonna get that tax back somehow.

Well electricity is taxed, but I know there are more taxes on petrol/diesel. I don't have time to look it up now or do the calculations. But electricity already has VAT on it. Maybe someone who knows the tax rates for fuel could do the calculations?

It currently costs me approximately €20 to do 2100km in my EV, this figure includes VAT. Someone out there could add on fuel taxes in the correct order and tell us what that works out as?

robtri

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

You're wrong and it's not worth my time carefully refuting your non researched arguments

very insightful... but like you i am entitled to my opinion, please tell me where in post i mis represented the EV car??

so just to clarify...

how long would it take you to drive from cork to Donegal town and back? in your EV

how are the sales of EV's compared to sales of the low end "premium" brands?

How much is the leaf again? did i seriously misrepresent the price? how much is a new battery pack? and what is its rated lifespan?

Sesshoumaru

robtri wrote: »

very insightful...

...

Here is my post #21 from this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

Here is your post #40

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73713792&postcount=40

I suggest you read my post keeping your point on pollution etc in mind. I covered most of those points in my post and used links to evidence like the explanation for EV efficiency on the SEAI website or research MIT did on the well to wheel cost of EV's versus normal ICE cars.

You offered your opinion which you're perfectly entitled to, but you offered absolutely nothing to back it up. Can you point me to the parts of your post that weren't simply your opinion?

I have nothing against you or you expressing your opinion (which you're perfectly entitled to), but I don't think I should make all the effort. If you can find evidence to backup your assertions that EV's are not greener than ICE cars or your other points, then I'll be happy to engage you.

_________________________________________________________________

Since I didn't cover it in any other posts directly, I will answer you on one point. You were saying EV's are no BMW? I'll certainly agree with you if you're talking about the g-wiz/reva or some of the other early EV's. The Nissan Leaf though is far more refined than any entry level 3 series. Why do I say that? well I'll give two points on this. First one is equipment level.

The Leaf has a lot of gadgets and a lot of safety equipment (5 star euroncap).

http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/Specifications.aspx

http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx
7" touch screen computer for controlling everything from sat-nav to bluetooth and multimedia.
Telematics service built-in and free of charge. Can update itself online and even do neat stuff like read RSS feeds to you.
ESP and ABS are standard
Reversing camera is linked to 7" touch screen, put her in reverse and you have reverse camera with guide lines.
Everything from mirrors to windows and folding mirrors are electric.
Seats are extremely comfy and are well made (another leaf owner told me his son puked up in the car and it left no stain nor did fluids sink in - water repellent).
Wipers and and lights are all automatic and controlled by light/rain sensor
All lights that can legally be LED are LED and front light are auto levelling
Rear glass is tinted
Full automatic climate control
keyless entry and push start button
The cars bluetooth can pair with several different phones for calling or multimedia.
Climate and charging can be controlled remotely from PC or Android/iPhone
Electric parking brake
Cruise control and speed limiter

All those are standard, the only optional extra is the rear roof spoiler with solar panel. That's a lot of gadgets and safety equipment. I doubt you get all those on a bogo spec Audi or BMW, stuff like the telematics and remote climate you probably can't get at all? The performance is quite acceptable as well, good bhp and torque. Centre of gravity is also very low and weight distribution is 50/50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain

Second point is where I try to get to the heart of what makes a luxury car a luxury car What's the major differences between an S class/A8/7 Series and a Fiat Punto? What makes the Punto a small cheap car (I have nothing against the Punto, it's just the example car I picked) and the S class a luxury car? It's not because the S class is faster, sports cars are faster still. My answer would be refinement! The S class glides along the road in a refined manner that is just not possible in the Punto. You go right to the very top and take a Maybach, what do Mercedes engineers spend so much time trying to accomplish with a car like the Maybach? Silence! and smoothness.

The Leaf with its excellent build quality, low centre of gravity and EV powertrain absolutely approach S class levels of silence and refinement on the road. I highly recommend you take a free test drive in one.

Owen

I'm staring to think Sessho works for Nissan :pac:

GTE

We need them.
I like them.
I feel however the electric motors are getting their power in the wrong way.

A hydrogen car right now can be bigger, go further and perform as quickly as a battery powered unit.
I would look into how any difficulties in hydrogen generated electricity for EV's could work in the long run.

Sesshoumaru

Owen wrote: »

I'm staring to think Sessho works for Nissan :pac:

LOL definitely not, I work in IT. I'm sure Admins can probably see IP addresses of posters, I post from work sometimes (like now), so an IP whois lookup would easily confirm I'm not a Nissan employee masquerading as a regular punter

I just care a lot about this issue!

geekboy

bbk wrote: »

We need them.
I like them.
I feel however the electric motors are getting their power in the wrong way.

A hydrogen car right now can be bigger, go further and perform as quickly as a battery powered unit.
I would look into how any difficulties in hydrogen generated electricity for EV's could work in the long run.

Who is selling these hydrogen cars? It is oil companies who will tell you the hydrogen car is only 20 years away. And in 20 years, it will be "20 years away" Why is that I wonder?

GTE

geekboy wrote: »

Who is selling these hydrogen cars? It is oil companies who will tell you the hydrogen car is only 20 years away. And in 20 years, it will be "20 years away" Why is that I wonder?

Honda sell a hydrogen car.
Oil company sustainability.
What is your point anyway?

Owen

There's many hydrogen cars on the road. BMW had one 5 years ago. There's also plans to contain hydrogen inside little bubbles like shampoo additives so it can be poured like petrol, and run on a normal petrol engine without modification at all.

coolbeans

Did anyone see that ridiculously biased anti-EV episode of Top Gear recently? It was a ****ing disgrace. They made out that it would take twelve hours to recharge the batteries in a Leaf while ignoring the fact that 84% charge could be reached in 30 minutes. They also failed to charge the ****ing thing before setting off. It was wilfully misleading and TG crossed a line there between entertainment and propaganda. They seem to have a political agenda now so **** them!

geekboy

bbk wrote: »

Honda sell a hydrogen car.
Oil company sustainability.
What is your point anyway?

Oil is fine if its affordable - peak oil as reached in 2006 - and the average price is significantly higher now! As an Island we are really stuck as a wholly dependant importer of oil/gas must look at gaining some distance and getting off this "drug" for our cars. Supply is the word I suggest was what you meant and not sustainability.

In relation to cars, in 2015 there will be 25+ cars on the market which have batteries many of which are pure EV. So I doubt the car companies have their visions wrong. How many "explosive" cars sorry meant hydrogen cars will be on the market in 2015? Where can you refuel and service this Honda car in Ireland today? EV owners have their homes, and many 40 today (1500 by year end) street locations. On top of the 12 fast charging dealer locations, in addition to the many Topaz and other locations around strategic locations in Ireland - this will hit 32 by the end of this year.

It’s a fact Electric cars in Ireland are the future not some cocktail dangerous cars.

cnocbui

I tried to work out how the Leaf was cheaper than something conventional and failed.

Looking at the Nissan IE site I got €24995 after deducting the €5000 Govt. subsidy. Nissan claim running costs of €232 per annum based on 19,000 k a year.

Same site, a Nissan Note costs €16395. Combined fuel economy is 5.9l per 100k, so for fuel costing €1.44 per L, the annual cost for 19K of motoring would be €1614.24 subtract the leaf's running cost of €232 and you get the Note being €1382.24 more expensive per annum.

The price differential between the two cars is €8600. Divide by the Note's annual running cost excess over the Leaf's and you get that price differential funding 6.22 years worth of driving, which at 19k a year gives you 118,214 k of motoring to the break even point for the two cars.

No doubt servicing costs and taxation differentials would probably change this a bit but someone else who can be bothered can work that out.

I really don't see where the great savings are. If the Leaf needs a new battery at any point, it's game over at €19,392 cost(UK).

cnocbui

coolbeans wrote: »

Did anyone see that ridiculously biased anti-EV episode of Top Gear recently? It was a ****ing disgrace. They made out that it would take twelve hours to recharge the batteries in a Leaf while ignoring the fact that 84% charge could be reached in 30 minutes. They also failed to charge the ****ing thing before setting off. It was wilfully misleading and TG crossed a line there between entertainment and propaganda. They seem to have a political agenda now so **** them!

Er, wouldn't an 84% charge of a 24kwh battery in half an hour require a charging current of 183.27 amps? :rolleyes:

Sesshoumaru

cnocbui wrote: »

Er, wouldn't an 84% charge of a 24kwh battery in half an hour require a charging current of 183.27 amps? :rolleyes:

I'm not an electrician, but I have charged my car from near 0% to 84% in 30 minutes. I guess pulling into a Topaz like this one which has a 50kw DC fast charger was what did it for me.

Never Wrong

cnocbui wrote: »

Er, wouldn't an 84% charge of a 24kwh battery in half an hour require a charging current of 183.27 amps? :rolleyes:

A 50kW fast charger - 400V, 125A DC.

pajo1981

I've said it before and I'll say it again. While the tech may not be quite there yet, batteries are commodity items and are improving in leaps and bounds all the time.

Also, at one million dollars per car, the Honda Clarity should really only be considered a concept car at this stage.

robtri

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Here is my post #21 from this thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73691736&postcount=21

Here is your post #40

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73713792&postcount=40

I suggest you read my post keeping your point on pollution etc in mind. I covered most of those points in my post and used links to evidence like the explanation for EV efficiency on the SEAI website or research MIT did on the well to wheel cost of EV's versus normal ICE cars.

You offered your opinion which you're perfectly entitled to, but you offered absolutely nothing to back it up. Can you point me to the parts of your post that weren't simply your opinion?

I have nothing against you or you expressing your opinion (which you're perfectly entitled to), but I don't think I should make all the effort. If you can find evidence to backup your assertions that EV's are not greener than ICE cars or your other points, then I'll be happy to engage you.

_________________________________________________________________

Since I didn't cover it in any other posts directly, I will answer you on one point. You were saying EV's are no BMW? I'll certainly agree with you if you're talking about the g-wiz/reva or some of the other early EV's. The Nissan Leaf though is far more refined than any entry level 3 series. Why do I say that? well I'll give two points on this. First one is equipment level.

The Leaf has a lot of gadgets and a lot of safety equipment (5 star euroncap).

http://www.nissan.ie/NissanLeaf/BuyingALeaf/Specifications.aspx

http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx
7" touch screen computer for controlling everything from sat-nav to bluetooth and multimedia.
Telematics service built-in and free of charge. Can update itself online and even do neat stuff like read RSS feeds to you.
ESP and ABS are standard
Reversing camera is linked to 7" touch screen, put her in reverse and you have reverse camera with guide lines.
Everything from mirrors to windows and folding mirrors are electric.
Seats are extremely comfy and are well made (another leaf owner told me his son puked up in the car and it left no stain nor did fluids sink in - water repellent).
Wipers and and lights are all automatic and controlled by light/rain sensor
All lights that can legally be LED are LED and front light are auto levelling
Rear glass is tinted
Full automatic climate control
keyless entry and push start button
The cars bluetooth can pair with several different phones for calling or multimedia.
Climate and charging can be controlled remotely from PC or Android/iPhone
Electric parking brake
Cruise control and speed limiter

All those are standard, the only optional extra is the rear roof spoiler with solar panel. That's a lot of gadgets and safety equipment. I doubt you get all those on a bogo spec Audi or BMW, stuff like the telematics and remote climate you probably can't get at all? The performance is quite acceptable as well, good bhp and torque. Centre of gravity is also very low and weight distribution is 50/50

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain

Second point is where I try to get to the heart of what makes a luxury car a luxury car What's the major differences between an S class/A8/7 Series and a Fiat Punto? What makes the Punto a small cheap car (I have nothing against the Punto, it's just the example car I picked) and the S class a luxury car? It's not because the S class is faster, sports cars are faster still. My answer would be refinement! The S class glides along the road in a refined manner that is just not possible in the Punto. You go right to the very top and take a Maybach, what do Mercedes engineers spend so much time trying to accomplish with a car like the Maybach? Silence! and smoothness.

The Leaf with its excellent build quality, low centre of gravity and EV powertrain absolutely approach S class levels of silence and refinement on the road. I highly recommend you take a free test drive in one.

Ok lets take a look more indepth some of my points...

Range... as per your own comments you CURRENTLY can not drive from Dublin to Galway... in the future you will but right now you cant without a long stop off... so CURRENTLY the range of EV cars is not good...
As i said they make a perfect car for a two car family....

Greener.... construction wise, the car is similiar build to an ICE car, metal and plastics.. the only difference is the batteries which are a big mining operation and numerous transportation across the globe and various refineries.. so IMHO their construction is not greener than a normal ICE vehicle.

also our electricity is gotton from the national grid.. which according to the ESB emits 504gr CO2 per KWH....
lets see how that stacks up to a small ICE, and note i havent taken even the most efficient ICE vehicle... a normal fiat Panda diesel (info from SEAI)

Pollution over 10,000 miles

Leaf has a 24kwh pack… average use is 0.3kwh per mile … therefore range is approx. 80miles (130km)

So in 10,000 miles a total of 3000 kwh are used..

Currently as per the ESB (http://www.esb.ie/esbcustomersupply/business/manage-your-account/fuel-mix.jsp) the Irish average is 504gr CO2 per Kwh

So a leaf produces 1512kg of CO2 per 10,000 miles

A similar small eco ICE car such as a Fiat Panda – does 109gr CO2 per mile or 1090kg per 10,000 miles



Cost.... firstly have you an estiamted cost of a battery pack? and the estimated lifespan of a battery pack??

on a very basic level of cost to own either a leaf oagainst a Fiat Pand 1.2 dynamic...
10,000 mile a year… 30,000 miles assuming tax, ins and maint to be similar

Leaf – Cost €30,000… nobody knows the 3 year depreciated value of these… but I think roughly be around €20k… so three years ownership costs 10k in depreciation
Electricty – (30,000miles / 0.3kwh per mile, times cost of elec night saver) = 30000/ 0.3 = 9000kwh times €0.0771 (esb night save rates) = €693.90
So the leaf over three years is….. €10,693.90


Panda - Cost €11,295. after three years be worth roughly €5,500, sp depreciation is €5795
Fuel – 30,000 miles 57.6 mpg (http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Getting_Around/HCIYC/)
Equates to 520.8 gallons or 2364 litres… @ €1.50 per litre… = €3546.00 in fuel
A panda over three years €9,341

Mmm which costs more over three years?????


finaly snobbery issues... I quite agree whole heartly the Leaf is so much better than a boggo Bmw... but like my post said a Mondeo is a better car.. but which is bought more?? the BMW cause of a snobbery value...

Mr Benevolent

All these anti-Leaf arguments are irrelevant imo. Technology early adopters should be praised for their decisions. Too many buts here from people who haven't driven them.

Humans absolutely hate change and this is another example of that. Electric cars WILL become prevalent, there's no doubt about it. So stop fecking around with CO2 arguments, go out and test drive one. I will be as soon as I get my full licence. Can't wait actually. A Leaf would be utterly perfect for me.

Never Wrong

robtri wrote: »

Ok lets take a look more indepth some of my points...





Mmm which costs more over three years?????


finaly snobbery issues... I quite agree whole heartly the Leaf is so much better than a boggo Bmw... but like my post said a Mondeo is a better car.. but which is bought more?? the BMW cause of a snobbery value...

You make your point well but there are a few inaccuracies:

1. Fiat Panda C02 emmsions are 113 gr/km = 180 gr/mile. http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Getting_Around/HCIYC/. You have used 109gr/mile in your calculations.
2. You are assuming that the fuel mix on the Irish generation system will say constant (at 2009 levels) for the next 3 years. There is a target that 40% of energy will be from renewables in 2020.
3. You assume that the price of petrol at the pump will stay constant for the next 3 years. Granted the price of electrcitiy may also rise but petrol/diesel is likely to rise a lot more.
4. The battery in the LEAF has a warranty for 5 years (7 years in the US). the €20,000 secondhand value would be considered to be on the low side. There are very few other moving parts that would be subject to wear and tear unlike an ICE vehicle.

Sesshoumaru

It's actually difficult to follow your post, why are you using miles? But I'll do my best.

1. You think a 30 minute stop is long, I think it is short. I think 160km range is just fine, you think its too short. I like the colour blue, my wife likes the colour red. I think a Mazda RX7 is a nice second car to have as a Sunday runabout, my wife thinks a slightly more expensive S2000 would be better.

These are just opinions, and preferences. Other people besides me have bought the Leaf here in Ireland and other countries. It's capabilities don't suit you, they do however clearly suit other people.

2. It uses a Lithium battery. It is completely recyclable. You're probably basing your opinion on Top Gear when they talked about the Prius having NiMH batteries that were not so kind to the environment. You know if you own anything like a cordless phone, mobile phone, laptop etc you are also using a Lithium based battery. These can be recycled and refurbished.

3. There is roughly 1.6 kilometers in a mile. Manufacturers give their CO2 emissions per kilometer, so I have to do a conversion. Here is the link to the Fiat Panda which gives emissions as 119g/km

Fiat Panda Link

If 1.6 kilometers equals one mile, that means it roughly has emissions of 190g/mile. You still haven't got the true emissions though. That's why I linked to an MIT study on the well to wheel cost of EV's versus ICE. That is the cost of digging oil up out of the ground/seabed. Transporting that oil then several times, refining the oil which also takes energy and finally transporting it again until it reaches the forecourt. Care to estimate how much that adds to your Fiat Panda's emissions?

But we're already at 1904KG (without accounting for the energy cost of getting oil and refining it) for the Fiat Panda, which lets face it, is smaller and is basically not in the same class as a Leaf.

4. The battery pack is estimated to still retain 80% capacity after 10 years. The cost is estimated at 375 US dollars per kwh

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-only-6-000-9-000-or/

Another possibility is that the battery pack can be simply refurbished. Both the cost of replacement and and refurbishment of the battery pack is an issue I raised with Nissan Ireland's Product Director just earlier today. I hope he'll get back to me soon, whatever he says I'll post up here.

5. Tax and insurance will be similar (for now). But don't expect maintenance to be the same. There are a maximum of 5 moving parts in the Leafs electric motor. There are hundreds in a Fiat Panda. I don't ever need new spark plugs, filters or oil etc. Maintenance will be a lot lower on the Leaf.

6. Oh yeah expect fuel to cost more than €1.50 as well. Oil is running out and China is now the biggest consumer of oil on the planet. BRIC countries like Brazil and India are fast increasing their consumption of oil. The country is also broke, so expect more carbon tax on petrol/diesel.

GTE

geekboy wrote: »

In relation to cars, in 2015 there will be 25+ cars on the market which have batteries many of which are pure EV. So I doubt the car companies have their visions wrong. How many "explosive" cars sorry meant hydrogen cars will be on the market in 2015? Where can you refuel and service this Honda car in Ireland today? EV owners have their homes, and many 40 today (1500 by year end) street locations. On top of the 12 fast charging dealer locations, in addition to the many Topaz and other locations around strategic locations in Ireland - this will hit 32 by the end of this year.

It’s a fact Electric cars in Ireland are the future not some cocktail dangerous cars.

I was wondering where you were going with that.
First off your last line seems to suggest that I do not think electric cars are the future. You are wrong. I think electric cars are the future.

Secondly with regards to your comment on explosive cars.

The left is hydrogen and the right is petrol.



This lithium battery explosion killed a man.
They can all go wrong.

I think for the benefit of the debate here the safety aspects should not be jumped on by users here as they can all go wrong but as I or my parents haven't blown up in our petrol and diesel cars, I am sure most of the battery based boardsies were never hit with battery explosions either so I think it is safe to say we can sort out the safety implications.

I would never bring the safety of a battery based car into question or use it as an argument for what I think is right.

With regards to infrastructure it is easy to roll out charging points for battery vehicles but we already have a network of filling stations. With regards to home fueling/charging Honda are working on a solution for the home so I do not see the infrastructure point being one to make a firm decision on battery vs on board electric generation.

My "make or break" issue for lack of a better term is turn around time from no power to power and as a side issue, range. At the moment the battery power recharge times are unacceptable to me. It is great that they can suit some people like the member with a Leaf here however I feel to have a car worth mass producing and to have the public buy it it needs to, within reason, perform to the more demanding customers needs which current petrol and diesels set the bench mark for.

A example from now is a old diesel Golf can get you about 500 to 550 miles to a tank, that suits my needs rather well as when I am low I have the filling station network to get me going again in a few minutes. It will suit the needs of the less extensive road user, like ideal Leaf users perfectly too. Where that translates into battery cars that means the car should do good range but also be recharged in a couple of minutes. The hydrogen Honda is bigger, can go further and already has an infrastructure there for it and on top of that the car can be fueled up in the same time as a petrol or diesel.

With money being poured into what I skeptically see as the quick way of pleasing the eco minded parts of our brains, that is electric charging points, I personally wonder if the money could be spent else where as there is a better like for like system running in the USA, you go further, bigger car, same acceleration and top speed.

My point is that with electric cars being the future, which I support, is there a better way of getting the power to those motors? At this moment in time, taking charging and fueling out of the question there is a better car then the Leaf and that is the Honda FCX because of better range, similar performance and bigger size.
With hydrogen giving better results then cars like the Leaf now then this is the reason why I question the money being put into battery cars for the masses.

r3nu4l

BrianD3 wrote: »

The poster's Leaf did 2100 km on 20 euros (night rate) of electricity. That's 1300 miles. 20 euros would buy you around 3 gallons of fuel at current rates. 1300/3 = 433 miles per gallon.

Right now though, the initial cost of the Leaf is very offputting to most. It will definitely reap the cost back over time but it's a major factor prohibiting sales imo.

robtri wrote: »

3 price... just too damn expensive at the moment... i am sorry but €30k... for car that wont save u money over its lifetime

Judging by the 'fuel' consumption figures quoted above it should save money but admittedly, not as much as if the price was a few grand lower.

For me, power and top speed are a real problem. A measly 108 bhp and 90 mph* top speed? No thanks.

So if prices came down and power went up I would definitely consider buying one, even with the limited range.


*yes, yes, I know that 90 mph is far above the legal speed limit but I may or may not on occasion have exceed the top speed of the Nissan Leaf, in the past.

pajo1981

bbk wrote: »

This lithium battery explosion killed a man.
They can all go wrong.

Bollocks alert:

That was a Lithium polymer battery. Lithium polymer is not used in ecars.

cnocbui

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

my wife thinks a slightly more expensive S2000 would be better.

She is absolutely right.

6. Oh yeah expect fuel to cost more than €1.50 as well. Oil is running out and China is now the biggest consumer of oil on the planet. BRIC countries like Brazil and India are fast increasing their consumption of oil. The country is also broke, so expect more carbon tax on petrol/diesel.

Do you expect the cost of electricity to remain unchanged? Are you aware that the known reserves of Lithium are quite small?

The only thing that makes electric vehicles even remotely viable is skewed taxation differentials. The base costs of the technologies for electric vehicles are way higher.

If a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet becomes electric, I do not see how governments will have any other option but to reduce or eliminate the skewed tax advantages because they need the revenue. Most of the running costs of a hydrocarbon powered vehicle are tax.

pajo1981

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I was just about to post about litium batteries, they are evil things compared to other battery types. I use them in my RC aircraft and they are very tempermental and will explode if mistreated. I think the Leaf is a great idea but the initial costs are far too high for the average joe on the street.

Generalization alert:

Lithium polymer batteries are temperamental (slightly), Lithium Ion batteries are not.

Sesshoumaru

r3nu4l wrote: »

Right now though, the initial cost of the Leaf is very offputting to most. It will definitely reap the cost back over time but it's a major factor prohibiting sales imo.



Judging by the 'fuel' consumption figures quoted above it should save money but admittedly, not as much as if the price was a few grand lower.

For me, power and top speed are a real problem. A measly 108 bhp and 90 mph* top speed? No thanks.

So if prices came down and power went up I would definitely consider buying one, even with the limited range.


*yes, yes, I know that 90 mph is far above the legal speed limit but I may or may not on occasion have exceed the top speed of the Nissan Leaf, in the past.

I know it's not fast, I did give up a bigger and faster car, I still own a sports bike as well. So I know it's not fast! But 'measly' is unfair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Powertrain

280 newton metres of torque is nice, 0 to 97kph in 9.9 seconds ain't bad either and I can definitely say it very easily exceeds 160kph. I'll give you a spin sometime if you need proof

Sesshoumaru

cnocbui wrote: »

She is absolutely right.



Do you expect the cost of electricity to remain unchanged? Are you aware that the known reserves of Lithium are quite small?

The only thing that makes electric vehicles even remotely viable is skewed taxation differentials. The base costs of the technologies for electric vehicles are way higher.

If a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet becomes electric, I do not see how governments will have any other option but to reduce or eliminate the skewed tax advantages because they need the revenue. Most of the running costs of a hydrocarbon powered vehicle are tax.

That my wife prefers the S2000 was real, she really likes that car

I expect oil to go up and I expect electricity to go up. I've covered this earlier. I want to go out and get my lunch Basically though electricity is something we could generate in our own country from renewable's and nuclear. Oil is not.

All resources on this planet including lithium and oil are finite. Technology will overcome, or how else will we power all our mobile gadgets? iPhones? tablets? etc. People have mentioned hydrogen fuel cells, I think they're a long way off. But that is one possibility. I'll post up some links to new battery technology being researched later.

*edit*

I also posted up with proof that my car is costing me around €20 (which includes VAT) to do 2100km. If anyone wants to take that figure and add fuel taxes in the correct order, I'd be interested to see what it would cost as well?

munchkin_utd

cnocbui wrote: »

Do you expect the cost of electricity to remain unchanged? Are you aware that the known reserves of Lithium are quite small?
.

electricity during the day is dear and will get dearer.
at night, when the powerstations are burning oil/ coal just to tick over and at the same time theres wind power - electrictiy will be cheap. Even now you can get cheap electricty for storage heaters and thats been there for decades.

and the range/ charging problem of electric cars is very easily fixed.
If you have a small generator engine onboard (which the manufacturers are already working on) you can always get back on the road with conventional petrol/ diesel/ biofuels.

Unfortunately then its not a "pure" electric car so a different category of car and possibly not elligable for all the grants etc that are there for electric cars.

Joe 90

Never Wrong wrote: »

You make your point well but there are a few inaccuracies:

1. Fiat Panda C02 emmsions are 113 gr/km = 180 gr/mile. http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Getting_Around/HCIYC/. You have used 109gr/mile in your calculations.
2. You are assuming that the fuel mix on the Irish generation system will say constant (at 2009 levels) for the next 3 years. There is a target that 40% of energy will be from renewables in 2020.
3. You assume that the price of petrol at the pump will stay constant for the next 3 years. Granted the price of electrcitiy may also rise but petrol/diesel is likely to rise a lot more.
4. The battery in the LEAF has a warranty for 5 years (7 years in the US). the €20,000 secondhand value would be considered to be on the low side. There are very few other moving parts that would be subject to wear and tear unlike an ICE vehicle.

Although we all think in terms of fewer moving parts that are subject to wear and tear in the EV, this is only true of the powertrain. The tyres/suspension suffer from the same wear and tear indeed more as the EV is by necessity heavier. I deliberately did not include the brakes as I assume that regenerative braking would indeed cut down on the wear and costs of the brakes.

cnocbui

Never Wrong wrote: »

A 50kW fast charger - 400V, 125A DC.

Duh!

But the whole point of the Topgear trial was that there wasn't a fast charge facility anywhere near Lincoln, so their 13 hr requirement to charge it was not a distortion, it was perfectly valid for the scenario.

robtri

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's actually difficult to follow your post, why are you using miles? But I'll do my best.

1. You think a 30 minute stop is long, I think it is short. I think 160km range is just fine, you think its too short. I like the colour blue, my wife likes the colour red. I think a Mazda RX7 is a nice second car to have as a Sunday runabout, my wife thinks a slightly more expensive S2000 would be better.

Ok you are missing the point, big time.. can you today.. and i mean today drive from Dublin to Galway or Cork to Donegal with only a 30 min stop over in a learf... Currently today you cannot do it.. therefore the range is limited...

I never implied this was not good enough for me or for you or for anyone else. as our infrastructure network is completely inadequate range is a factor with EV's

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

2. It uses a Lithium battery. It is completely recyclable. You're probably basing your opinion on Top Gear when they talked about the Prius having NiMH batteries that were not so kind to the environment. You know if you own anything like a cordless phone, mobile phone, laptop etc you are also using a Lithium based battery. These can be recycled and refurbished.

no argument there, i dont see the point though, as the carbon footprint to make the car and the battery pack initially is greater than a similiar sized ICE car, clearly in its manufacturing the leaf is a bigger polluter...

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

3. There is roughly 1.6 kilometers in a mile. Manufacturers give their CO2 emissions per kilometer, so I have to do a conversion. Here is the link to the Fiat Panda which gives emissions as 119g/km

Fiat Panda Link

If 1.6 kilometers equals one mile, that means it roughly has emissions of 190g/mile. You still haven't got the true emissions though. That's why I linked to an MIT study on the well to wheel cost of EV's versus ICE. That is the cost of digging oil up out of the ground/seabed. Transporting that oil then several times, refining the oil which also takes energy and finally transporting it again until it reaches the forecourt. Care to estimate how much that adds to your Fiat Panda's emissions?

But we're already at 1904KG (without accounting for the energy cost of getting oil and refining it) for the Fiat Panda, which lets face it, is smaller and is basically not in the same class as a Leaf.

sorry got my miles and CO2 per KM mixed up, so the numbers are slighty skewed, will look at them again... what sort of class would u put the leaf into???

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

4. The battery pack is estimated to still retain 80% capacity after 10 years. The cost is estimated at 375 US dollars per kwh

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-only-6-000-9-000-or/

Another possibility is that the battery pack can be simply refurbished. Both the cost of replacement and and refurbishment of the battery pack is an issue I raised with Nissan Ireland's Product Director just earlier today. I hope he'll get back to me soon, whatever he says I'll post up here.

that link does not prove anything, there is also an estiamte for 1,000 to 1200 dollars per KWH ......
be curious to see what nissan say...

the battery pack according to nissan has a lifespan of 5 to 10 years only under normal use... in other words you need to repalce it every 5 to 10 years....

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

5. Tax and insurance will be similar (for now). But don't expect maintenance to be the same. There are a maximum of 5 moving parts in the Leafs electric motor. There are hundreds in a Fiat Panda. I don't ever need new spark plugs, filters or oil etc. Maintenance will be a lot lower on the Leaf.

but it is the FOR NOW we are talking about ..
also while yes there are a lot less serviceable parts on the LEAF, it has to be serviced at NISSAN, where labour costs are twice that of a local mechanic servicing your car... what you save in parts ( spark plugs, filters and oil) will be made up in labour costs.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

6. Oh yeah expect fuel to cost more than €1.50 as well. Oil is running out and China is now the biggest consumer of oil on the planet. BRIC countries like Brazil and India are fast increasing their consumption of oil. The country is also broke, so expect more carbon tax on petrol/diesel.

and expect electricity to rise as well... our primary source of energy in Ireland is fossil fuel based.
carbon taxs will also effect electricity ....

cnocbui

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

That my wife prefers the S2000 was real, she really likes that car

She has good taste. I would be driving one myself if I didn't need the load carrying capacity of my Civic type R

I also posted up with proof that my car is costing me around €20 (which includes VAT) to do 2100km. If anyone wants to take that figure and add fuel taxes in the correct order, I'd be interested to see what it would cost as well?

I'm too lazy, but someone did it for the UK which wouldn't be far off:

Leaf does about 3 miles per KWh. 1KWh is about 11p, so that's about 3.7p per mile.

A small petrol car could get 60mpg. Petrol is about £5.70 per gallon, so the apparent cost is about 9.5p per mile.

However, almost 70% of the petrol cost is tax, so the actual cost is about 2.9p per mile.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18223974&page=7

GTE

pajo1981 wrote: »

Bollocks alert:

That was a Lithium polymer battery. Lithium polymer is not used in ecars.

There is no bollocks there if I just made a mistake about lithium polymer/ion.

Calm your mind a bit.
If you read what I was saying I was pointing out people trying to discredit one of the options discussed on safety grounds is not looking at the real picture as, you have been able to help prove, technology can sort the safety.

pajo1981

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Tell that to Dell and Sony who recalled a large number of Lithium Ion batteries due risk of fire/explosion. Nokia also recalled 46 Million of them for the same reason. I personally feel safe working with Petrol than LiPo batteries.

The risk of a li ion going off compared to lipo is negligable.

On petrol v. Lipo: Really? I store my Lipos indoors while I store my petrol can in the shed.

pajo1981

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You can do what you like, thats your choice, I keep mine outside my house.

You are actually more likely to damage them storing them outside - in fact, I'm fairly sure you are supposed to store them indoors.

Never Wrong

cnocbui wrote: »

Duh!

But the whole point of the Topgear trial was that there wasn't a fast charge facility anywhere near Lincoln, so their 13 hr requirement to charge it was not a distortion, it was perfectly valid for the scenario.

They set out to purposely skew the public's opinion. They choose to highlight the drawbacks of EVs as opposed to the positives. They could have planned their journey in advance taking the location of fast charge points into account for their "trial". This would be the sensible approach.

Never Wrong

cnocbui wrote: »

She has good taste. I would be driving one myself if I didn't need the load carrying capacity of my Civic type R

I'm too lazy, but someone did it for the UK which wouldn't be far off:

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18223974&page=7

Those calculations in the UK are 3 times more expensive than the real life example here:

2,100km costs €20 - €0.009 per km

3.7p per mile is equivalent to €0.042 per mile (0.877 exchange rate) or €0.026 per km.
i.e 3 times more than the real life example.

Sesshoumaru

robtri wrote: »

Ok you are missing the point, big time.. can you today.. and i mean today drive from Dublin to Galway or Cork to Donegal with only a 30 min stop over in a learf... Currently today you cannot do it.. therefore the range is limited...

I never implied this was not good enough for me or for you or for anyone else. as our infrastructure network is completely inadequate range is a factor with EV's





no argument there, i dont see the point though, as the carbon footprint to make the car and the battery pack initially is greater than a similiar sized ICE car, clearly in its manufacturing the leaf is a bigger polluter...



sorry got my miles and CO2 per KM mixed up, so the numbers are slighty skewed, will look at them again... what sort of class would u put the leaf into???



that link does not prove anything, there is also an estiamte for 1,000 to 1200 dollars per KWH ......
be curious to see what nissan say...

the battery pack according to nissan has a lifespan of 5 to 10 years only under normal use... in other words you need to repalce it every 5 to 10 years....



but it is the FOR NOW we are talking about ..
also while yes there are a lot less serviceable parts on the LEAF, it has to be serviced at NISSAN, where labour costs are twice that of a local mechanic servicing your car... what you save in parts ( spark plugs, filters and oil) will be made up in labour costs.



and expect electricity to rise as well... our primary source of energy in Ireland is fossil fuel based.
carbon taxs will also effect electricity ....

1. Today I could, there is a public slow charger in Athlone, it would take about 6 hours to top up the battery before leaving Athlone. totally unacceptable of course, but I'm just replying that it is today technically possible.

The ESB have informed us (Irish EV Owners <- group name) that the Athlone FCP (fast charging point) will be operational within 1 month. All 30+ FCP's will be in operation by the end of the year. I bought the car with my eyes wide open, I knew it would take a little bit of time to get the main infrastructure up and running. I also know for a fact that the Nissan dealers have a playbook for dealing with potential Leaf customers. If there is any chance you don't understand the current day limitations, then they will recommend against buying a Leaf. Nissan are very strict about this, they don't need customers who don't understand this buying Leaf's and then making bad PR.

You point re Dublin to Galway is only valid for 4 to 5 more weeks. No big deal for me, couldn't care less. As I said I went in with my eyes wide open. The rest of the country will be covered by end of year. When the first ICE cars came out were there petrol stations everywhere? I think you're being unreasonable expecting that the country should be completely covered from day one.

2. A diamond encrusted gold necklace costs a lot, but does it have a large carbon footprint to make? I accept the possibility the Leaf has a slightly higher carbon impact during manufacture compared to an equivalent ICE car. But I don't accept the assumption that current high battery cost equals high carbon cost. Where is the evidence that the Leaf really does have a much higher carbon cost to manufacture?

3. The car we replaced was a 2000 model Audi A6 Avant Quattro Sport 2.5TDI. Cars we considered as replacements were:

Skoda Yeti
Nissan Leaf

I would say comparing it to the Skoda Yeti is fair in terms of space, equipment level and comfort level. Obviously there are differences, no two cars are the same. But that is my opinion anyway. I'd highly recommend you test drive the Leaf, don't take my word on it!

4. There are competing figures out there, that's why I emailed the Product Director in Nissan Ireland today. But other sources give an indication:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1064332_nissan-leafs-battery-pack-should-last-as-long-as-the-car

As for the claims from both Top Gear, The Times, and The Telegraph that rapid level 3 charging will kill a Leaf battery pack within three years, Nissan disagrees.

“We are confident that [rapid] charging once a day will have no impact on the expected durability,” said a Nissan representative. “A single [rapid] charge plus a conventional charge per day would give enough to travel almost 200 miles a day, or 72,000 miles a year. The average motorist does less than 10,000 miles a year. An example from our telematics shows a privately-owned Leaf in Tokyo still has 100% charge capacity after 10,000 miles and 326 [rapid] charges."

And price? The figures claimed by the press for a replacement pack are completely inflated, Nissan

“To make the maintenance of the Leaf as easy as possible, the “battery” is actually 48 batteries in a large box which can be replaced individually to keep costs low. Each is connected to the Leaf’s advanced telematics system so Nissan can monitor the health of each module remotely. The price quoted in the press of [$31,795] for an entire battery is not indicative of the actual cost. It is an extrapolation of the individual price of replacing a single battery multiplied by 48. The cost of a conventional engine and transmission built up from individually sourced parts would be similarly high”

5. Servicing a Leaf is a quick inspection and plug it into a computer. That's it, only if you need new brake pads (which wear less quickly due to regen braking) or tyres say, do they then need to do anything else. It really is just plug into a computer. I just rang my dealer there and asked what price do they charge for labour and he told me 72 euro per hour. When I bought the car I was told servicing would be 80 euro per year, so I guess they're roughly charging for 1 hours labour. 72 euro per hour does not equal twice the cost of a local mechanic.

The other point on this is that it is a new car. I would say the vast majority of people bring their new cars (which are under warranty) to their main dealer to have it serviced. You can't compare a secondhand out of warranty car to a new car being serviced at a main dealer. Apples and oranges!

6. I do expect electricity to rise, I expect oil to rise faster than electricity. The government also plans to increase renewable's from their current level of 14% to 40% by 2020.

Sesshoumaru

This is directed at no one in particular, but can people stop quoting Top Gear's charging time of 13 hours. That is the time it takes if you plug into a normal 3 pin domestic socket.

In Ireland the ESB has disallowed this charging method. All home charging is done by a dedicated (and free) external 16 amp home charging unit. Charge time is 7 hours maximum (tested by me, 0% to 100% on home charger). All slow on street chargers currently being installed do either 16 amp or 32 amp charging as well. So that 7 hours on the street as well, or 3 to 4 hours for next years Ford Focus EV and Renault Fluence ZE.

There is no 13 hour charge time in Ireland

cnocbui

Never Wrong wrote: »

Those calculations in the UK are 3 times more expensive than the real life example here:

2,100km costs €20 - €0.009 per km

3.7p per mile is equivalent to €0.042 per mile (0.877 exchange rate) or €0.026 per km.
i.e 3 times more than the real life example.

The LEAF uses 0.2113 kwh per km (wiki)
The Eirtricty price on my bill for 1 kwh is €0.141
So the cost per km is €0.03 - rounding to the cent - not €0.009

The Nissan Note I used in my previous example gets 5.9l per 100k
With diesel costing 1.41 (pumps.ie) the cost per km is €0.08 rounded

66% of the cost of fuel is tax so the fuel costs per km for the Note would be €0.03 rounded - the same as the LEAF - surprise, surprise.

Even with the current tax regime (€0.08 per km), The LEAF only breaks even with the Note after being driven 107,500 km, given the €8600 price difference between the two after the subsidy - without the subsidy, the break even point would be 170,000 km

Without the massive Tax skewing, the Note would would be much, much cheaper to own and operate.

Never Wrong

cnocbui wrote: »

The LEAF uses 0.2113 kwh per km (wiki)
The Eirtricty price on my bill for 1 kwh is €0.141
So the cost per km is €0.03 - rounding to the cent - not €0.009

The Nissan Note I used in my previous example gets 5.9l per 100k
With diesel costing 1.41 (pumps.ie) the cost per km is €0.08 rounded

66% of the cost of fuel is tax so the fuel costs per km for the Note would be €0.03 rounded - the same as the LEAF - surprise, surprise.

Even with the current tax regime (€0.08 per km), The LEAF only breaks even with the Note after being driven 107,500 km, given the €8600 price difference between the two after the subsidy - without the subsidy, the break even point would be 170,000 km

Without the massive Tax skewing, the Note would would be much, much cheaper to own and operate.

The real life example gives a cost per km of the LEAF of €0.01 rounded. The reason for the difference between this and your calculations is that wiki assumes a lower range ((24/0.2113) = 114 km) and the cost of electricity at the night rate is about half the cost of the day rate (approx. €0.07). This data cannot be argued with.

It is unlikely that the taxes on petrol or diesel will ever be lowered so the consumer will always pay far more to run an ICE vehicle compared to an EV.

Sesshoumaru

cnocbui wrote: »

The LEAF uses 0.2113 kwh per km (wiki)
The Eirtricty price on my bill for 1 kwh is €0.141
So the cost per km is €0.03 - rounding to the cent - not €0.009

The Nissan Note I used in my previous example gets 5.9l per 100k
With diesel costing 1.41 (pumps.ie) the cost per km is €0.08 rounded

66% of the cost of fuel is tax so the fuel costs per km for the Note would be €0.03 rounded - the same as the LEAF - surprise, surprise.

Even with the current tax regime (€0.08 per km), The LEAF only breaks even with the Note after being driven 107,500 km, given the €8600 price difference between the two after the subsidy - without the subsidy, the break even point would be 170,000 km

Without the massive Tax skewing, the Note would would be much, much cheaper to own and operate.

Here are my stats for July



You can't say I didn't cover much ground and my average economy is much better than what you got from Wikipedia.

Also my ESB bill says I pay .07 euro/kwh + VAT at 13.5% for night rate charging. This is when I and all other EV owners I know, charge our cars.



If you'd read any posts on here you'd know the Leaf has a charging scheduler. You can plug it in at home whenever you like, but it won't start charging until a time I've told it to start. 00:10 each night for me. So it is perfectly convenient to charge at night.

dynamick

cnocbui wrote: »

Without the massive Tax skewing, the Note would would be much, much cheaper to own and operate.

I don't think that Note and Leaf are comparable class vehicles. Leaf is automatic and silent for a start

Elec cars do not compete very well with ICE cars yet - even with many subsidies. Presumably this will change with higher taxes on conventional cars and advances in electrical car technology. Best selling small car in Norway this year was an electric car (Mitsu i-miev). This is a result of huge taxes on conventional cars and even broader subsidies for electric (free parking and tolls)

zod

The E6 battery technology looks good.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/BYD-e6-first-drive/257839/

BYD currently limits testing to its premises, which prevents a full test of its claimed range of 186 miles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aoY6mupCtU

unkel

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

In Ireland the ESB has disallowed this charging method. All home charging is done by a dedicated (and free) external 16 amp home charging unit.

So ESB supply and fit a 16 amp charging unit in your home for free? No change to your monthly standing charges? Do you have to pay ESB for your electricty (as opposed to Board Gais, or whateve other supplier) or does that not matter?

Another question: how much do you pay per kwh at a fast charging station (the 30 minute one you mentioned)?