Electric Vehicles - Your thoughts - MotorMouth, Newstalk

cnocbui

Never Wrong wrote: »

The real life example gives a cost per km of the LEAF of €0.01 rounded. The reason for the difference between this and your calculations is that wiki assumes a lower range ((24/0.2113) = 114 km) and the cost of electricity at the night rate is about half the cost of the day rate (approx. €0.07). This data cannot be argued with.

It is unlikely that the taxes on petrol or diesel will ever be lowered so the consumer will always pay far more to run an ICE vehicle compared to an EV.

I can't get nightsaver electricity at €0.07 - also can't be argued with. I will grant you the wiki energy consumption seems to be overstated by a lot.

I will concede that with 7c per kwh electricity and .12 kwh per km efficiency it does look like a much better proposition.

I was never arguing the taxes on hydrocarbon fuels will ever be lowered. What has to happen is the government will, at some point, have to start taxing electric vehicles or some other part of the economy to make up the revenue shortfall that would inevitably result if a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet becomes electric.

With the Note, the government makes €0.05 cents for every k you drive. It is a huge revenue earner and the government would have to do something if it's receipts declined.

Sesshoumaru

unkel wrote: »

So ESB supply and fit a 16 amp charging unit in your home for free? No change to your monthly standing charges? Do you have to pay ESB for your electricty (as opposed to Board Gais, or whateve other supplier) or does that not matter?

Another question: how much do you pay per kwh at a fast charging station (the 30 minute one you mentioned)?

Totally free:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Charge_Infrastructur,_Time_Electricity_Supplier/

Standard domestic Single Phase, 230 Volt, 16 Amp, 3.7kW
...
The first 2,000 Domestic Sockets will be installed free of charge by ESB

You don't have to have the ESB as your electricity supplier either. You pay BG or Airtricity or whoever supplies your electricity. The ESB still gives you the free home charger.

The fast charging is free at the moment. Any price I mention is speculative, but I have heard between 2 to 6 euro for a complete charge. No one really knows yet. If Topaz can sell electricity do they need to register as an electricity supplier like ESB/Airtricity/BG? There must be regulations on selling electricity. Hopefully plenty of red tape to keep it free for another while yet (=

The FCP has an LCD screen with some options to select before charging. There is complete charge and then the other option is you specify the number of minutes you want to charge. It does give you a cost after charging (60 cent for a full charge I think), but for now we can just ignore it and drive off. I'm sure the unit cost is adjustable and is probably just on the default setting for now.

dynamick

cnocbui wrote: »

What has to happen is the government will, at some point, have to start taxing electric vehicles or some other part of the economy to make up the revenue shortfall that would inevitably result if a significant proportion of the vehicle fleet becomes electric.

Correct. For the next few years, ESB and the state are funding a trial period to get the charging infrastructure rolled out and learn about how electric cars work in practice. Sesshoumaru is saving 180/month in fuel compared to say a new auto petrol VW Golf.

lomb

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

My family and I have a Nissan Leaf. My wife and I have two young daughters and we got rid of both our old ICE cars in order to get a Nissan Leaf. We've had it over 3 months now and have done more than 7500km in it. It is our only car and it meets my families needs very well.

My eldest daughter is 4 years old and the youngest is 8 months. So my opinion on the car itself is coming from the perspective of a young family man. The car we used to have as our primary family car was a 2000 model Audi A6 Avant Quattro Sport 2.5TDI. This was a nice large estate car for a family. In comparison the boot the in Leaf is smaller, but large enough to accommodate baby buggy, shopping and anything else we like to throw in the boot usually.

Interior space in the car for passengers is on par with what we had in the Audi, for both front seat and back seat passengers. The car is very roomy on the interior. Overall everything is quite well put together and looks like it will stand up to abuse from kids.

The car has a lot of modern multimedia features like USB port, bluetooth, audio jack etc. Great for entertaining kids as you can easily put their favourite songs on USB memory sticks to play in the car. Safety wise it scored 5 stars on the Euro NCAP.

http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbwQva75bbQ&feature=player_embedded#at=126

Handling wise the centre of gravity is very low on the car. This car was purpose built as an EV, not a redesigned petrol/diesel car. As such the batteries are below the passenger compartment running along the floor. This gives the car a perfect 50/50 weight distribution and low centre of gravity. While the steering is a little light, the car is a joy to drive. With 108bhp and 280 newton metres of torque, I'm very happy with the power available from the car. Of course as a modern car it also comes equipped with ABS and ESP as standard.

The car has a lot of intelligent features, I won't go into all of them. But features people will end up using a lot are the charging timer and climate control timer. In relation to the charging timer I have the car set as follows:

Monday to Thursday:
Start charging at 00:10
Charge to 80%

Friday to Sunday
Start charging at 00:10
Charge to 100%

This means I get home and I plug the car in, but it doesn't start charging until just after midnight. This way I take advantage of ESB night rates without having to go out to the car at midnight to plug it in then. The car also has a subscription free connection to the internet built-in. If you want it to, it can keep track of all journeys you make and it automatically keeps track of all energy used to charge it. This is then stored online and available for you to access using your username and password. This means I can log on to the Nissan Leaf portal online and see exactly how much the car is costing me. See screenshot below from my own portal (price below excludes VAT at 13.5%).



The climate control timer I haven't used much yet as it's summer time. But basically you can schedule when you want the climate control to activate on whatever days and times you want. So in winter you could have the car start heating itself at 7:30am every Monday to Friday. Advantages of this are that when you get to your car it is nice and warm and fully defrosted. It also means it was all done using power from the charging unit on your house. When plugged in the car uses power from the plug to run the climate control. Before you leave for work your car is warm, defrosted and no power has been used from your battery leaving you with a full charge before you leave for work.

As far as range goes we actually drive more since we got our EV. Sunday afternoon drive? why not! It's only going to cost 1 to 2 euro for a leisurely spin. Beforehand we would drive less because a full tank of fuel would cost us 85 euro. If we want to go further we don't have to wait 7 hours (time it takes to charge from 0% to 100% on home charger or on street charger). We can just pull into a fuel station like this one in Newlands Cross Topaz



This Fast Charger can take the Leaf from 0% to 84% in 30 minutes. Presumably you won't enter the station with 0% left, so most times getting back up to 84% charge will take less than 30 minutes. Too long for some, but a compromise my wife and I are happy to live with considering the other advantages of our EV.

Fast Charging technology also mean longer journeys are possible. As soon as the Topaz in Athlone has its Fast Charger operational we will be able to drive from Dublin to Galway with one 30 minute stop in between. Considering we have two young kids, this is not really an inconvenience, we would be stopping anyway. Not suitable for everybody, but for us we consider it a small sacrifice to gain the other immense advantages of owning an EV.

You'll probably get a lot of comments about EV's transferring the pollution back to power stations, they're not emission free etc. The common theme with these comments are usually that modern diesel engines will have similar or outperform EV's on emissions. I'd ask you to do your homework on this before just accepting those comments at face value. The emissions from a diesel or petrol car as rated by the manufacturer are only those at the point of emission i.e. the carbon the car itself emits while burning fossil fuels. This is the figure most people use when comparing their modern diesel car to an EV's emissions from the power plant. This completely ignores the fact that it takes a lot of energy (carbon emitted) to get oil out of the ground/seabed, transport it, refine it and transport it again (possibly several more times) before it ever goes into a cars fuel tank. Please check out these links:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Power_Station_to_Wheels/

http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf

I have to admit though I'm not a tree hugging hippy. I care about our planet, but I didn't want to save the planet by buying a Leaf. At the moment 14% of electricity in Ireland is generated by renewable sources. This can be and should be increased. This is energy we can generate ourselves without sending our money overseas to unstable oil producing regimes. People can go on and on about half the cost of petrol/diesel being taxes. But that other half leaves our country, leaves Europe even! and goes to places like Libya (where 20% of our oil used to come from before the war). If we use EV's and charge them using domestically produced energy, that's money and jobs staying in Ireland.

The other big reason we chose to get rid of our ICE cars and go with one EV as our family car is that, in the long run it will be a lot cheaper than owning a petrol or diesel car. How many moving part does a petrol or diesel car have in their engine? Hundreds! An EV motor has about 5 moving parts and electric motors are not new untested technology. We've been using them for years in trains and boats etc. The car has normal wear and tear items like tyres, brake pads and shocks etc. But with regenerative braking being easy on brake pads and the silky smooth electric motor easy on the tyres, that only leaves shocks and there is no reason for them to need regular maintenance if the car is driven with respect.

That only leaves the battery pack, which Nissan says will still have 80% capacity after 10 years. In Ireland it has a 5 year warranty and in the US the battery pack has an 8 year warranty. So I'm happy it will last a very long time. But long before the battery pack is useless, I expect I'll be able to put in a newer battery pack as technology improves. It's just a big battery after all.

Overall we're really happy with our EV and would not consider going back to owning a diesel or petrol car. It cost a lot up front, but as a long term investment it will work out cheaper. Considering the long term cost of something is not something we Irish are famed for! But I'm hoping EV's will be different.

*edit*
Last point:

Eddie Hobbs made a comment that the type of people buying these cars are the type who own Range Rover Sports and have the Nissan Leaf as a second car for appearances. That was just his bigoted opinion based on no evidence whatsoever. My family and I are regular middle class. I've met up with several other Nissan Leaf owners and most of them like me have their Nissan Leaf as their only car. They are all also firmly middle class. I haven't met any rich Nissan Leaf owners, but I'm sure they do exist. Maybe Eddie Hobbs as a member of the rich class in Ireland might be considering purchasing one?

The depreciation and cost of finance are OTT considering it is asmall car. If the equivelent diesel is 20k, then the cost of finance and depreciation will be 6k more over 3 years, or 2k a year, enough for the diesel to fill the tank. I salute you though for being a pioneer.

Eric Cartman

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

This is directed at no one in particular, but can people stop quoting Top Gear's charging time of 13 hours. That is the time it takes if you plug into a normal 3 pin domestic socket.

In Ireland the ESB has disallowed this charging method. All home charging is done by a dedicated (and free) external 16 amp home charging unit. Charge time is 7 hours maximum (tested by me, 0% to 100% on home charger). All slow on street chargers currently being installed do either 16 amp or 32 amp charging as well. So that 7 hours on the street as well, or 3 to 4 hours for next years Ford Focus EV and Renault Fluence ZE.

There is no 13 hour charge time in Ireland

so are you telling me, if i have this right , that the ESB wont allow you to charge your leaf from a normal socket ? have they taken away the cable ? disabled it on the car or ??

galwaytt

Of course the other side to the EV coin (for now, at least..), is rather invisible, and less savoury.

I can't blame OP for buying and using one, as it's obviously working well - I would do the same.

However, it won't always be that way: if EV's become 'the norm' then it's inevitable that cost of ownership will increase (ignoring purchase cost).

This is because, for now, every EV, Hybrid and low CO2 car is subsidised, to purchase, by those of us who don't have one.

Worse, their (lack of) tax is even further subsidised by those of us who, again, don't have one...........or even if we do, are denied by Revenue, of just tax treatment. Consider: CO2 emission output has been a recordable requirement under EU legislation for many years. Yet our govt has decided to only allow those post Jan 1 2008 to enjoy the benefit's. It should, by right, be extended to all.

And so, the 'haves' will contine to prosper, while the 'not-so-haves' will be paying for it.

And consider further: two different govt's have decreed, by sanctioning scrappage schemes', that a car of 10yrs or older, is worthless. Yet they continue to plunder owner's of same, for Motor Tax. Or am I the only one who sees this...?

If tax Revenue continues to implode, due to the unsubstantiable nature of the low CO2 tax regime, Revenue will eventually revert to type. It'll be a few years yet, but I can't see them not doing it.........

Sesshoumaru

galwaytt wrote: »

Of course the other side to the EV coin (for now, at least..), is rather invisible, and less savoury.

I can't blame OP for buying and using one, as it's obviously working well - I would do the same.

However, it won't always be that way: if EV's become 'the norm' then it's inevitable that cost of ownership will increase (ignoring purchase cost).

This is because, for now, every EV, Hybrid and low CO2 car is subsidised, to purchase, by those of us who don't have one.

Worse, their (lack of) tax is even further subsidised by those of us who, again, don't have one...........or even if we do, are denied by Revenue, of just tax treatment. Consider: CO2 emission output has been a recordable requirement under EU legislation for many years. Yet our govt has decided to only allow those post Jan 1 2008 to enjoy the benefit's. It should, by right, be extended to all.

And so, the 'haves' will contine to prosper, while the 'not-so-haves' will be paying for it.

And consider further: two different govt's have decreed, by sanctioning scrappage schemes', that a car of 10yrs or older, is worthless. Yet they continue to plunder owner's of same, for Motor Tax. Or am I the only one who sees this...?

If tax Revenue continues to implode, due to the unsubstantiable nature of the low CO2 tax regime, Revenue will eventually revert to type. It'll be a few years yet, but I can't see them not doing it.........

I pay tax as well you know, a fair chunk of it. It's also my opinion that EV's will get cheaper as battery technology improves and mass production kicks in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Production

Commercial US production is slated to begin in late 2012 at Nissan's manufacturing facility in Smyrna, Tennessee. This US plant will be modified with a US$1.4 billion loan granted by the US Department of Energy to allow the manufacturing plant to produce the Nissan Leaf and its advanced batteries. The retooled plant is expected to create 1,300 jobs.[92][93] The Smyrna plant is expected to produce up to 150,000 vehicles and 200,000 battery packs annually.[93]
The Leaf will also be produced at Nissan's plant in Sunderland, England, beginning in 2013.[94] Nissan will benefit from a GB£20.7 million grant from the British government and up to GB£220 million from the European Investment Bank.[94][95] The plant will produce 60,000 lithium-ion batteries a year, and it also is expected to deliver 50,000 Leaf EVs a year.[94] Once production starts at the Sunderland plant, Nissan expects to reduce the Leaf price in the European market by 2013.[96]

From my perspective the car is expensive even with its 5k subsidy. I feel by purchasing now that I am in fact subsidising future purchasers of EV's by dipping into my own pocket and helping kick start the revolution

si_guru

I drove a Nissan Leaf and it was brilliant.

Double the range, knock another €5K off the price and I will have one!

galwaytt

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I pay tax as well you know, a fair chunk of it. It's also my opinion that EV's will get cheaper as battery technology improves and mass production kicks in.

You're missing my point - I never said you didn't pay tax. If both of us were doing the same job, same place, same circumstances, we would both pay the same. However, I would be the one subsidising your transport - where do you think the VRT subsidy comes from ?

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

[/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Production

From my perspective the car is expensive even with its 5k subsidy. I feel by purchasing now that I am in fact subsidising future purchasers of EV's by dipping into my own pocket and helping kick start the revolution

Yes, you're right: the car IS expensive. You aren't subsidising anyone - it's the other way around.

The point I'm making is that, say over time, the car halves in price - all that will be down to Nissan and it's engineering, and success in the market. What I'm pointing out is that as that happens, and the EV market grows (which it will, no issue with that), the govt here will come up with new taxes to put on them, to claw back all that it is losing in VRT, but more importantly, fuel excise's, into the future. With car-related taxes down from €1bn to €400m (or some such...), the exchequer isn't going to sit idly by.......it has nothing to do with Nissan, technology, or the market -it's the fact that this State's largest cash cow will be going away from it.....we all know it's motor taxes that pays for school's, hospital's etc etc....

Remember, outside of the words 'tax increases', the Revenue's favourite words are 'tax neutral'.........

Sesshoumaru

galwaytt wrote: »

You're missing my point - I never said you didn't pay tax. If both of us were doing the same job, same place, same circumstances, we would both pay the same. However, I would be the one subsidising your transport - where do you think the VRT subsidy comes from ?



Yes, you're right: the car IS expensive. You aren't subsidising anyone - it's the other way around.

The point I'm making is that, say over time, the car halves in price - all that will be down to Nissan and it's engineering, and success in the market. What I'm pointing out is that as that happens, and the EV market grows (which it will, no issue with that), the govt here will come up with new taxes to put on them, to claw back all that it is losing in VRT, but more importantly, fuel excise's, into the future. With car-related taxes down from €1bn to €400m (or some such...), the exchequer isn't going to sit idly by.......it has nothing to do with Nissan, technology, or the market -it's the fact that this State's largest cash cow will be going away from it.....we all know it's motor taxes that pays for school's, hospital's etc etc....

Remember, outside of the words 'tax increases', the Revenue's favourite words are 'tax neutral'.........

Sorry but you haven't convinced me. Early adopters of technology subsidise those who come later. EV's, laptops, smartphones etc it's the same for all of those. Early adopters pay a premium for new technology, new technology is considered successful and eventually as a result new technology comes down in price.

I raised this point earlier, but with all the talk of taxes, taxes, taxes etc People tend to forget that the other half of fossil fuels cost goes out of the country and back to unstable oil producing regimes like Saudi Arabia. If everyone was using EV's and we powered them using domestically produced energy, then that would be 100% of our money spent on transportation energy staying in Ireland.

That's what I call supporting local tax paying jobs in this country. You can't just take the reduction in income from fossil fuel taxes in isolation and deduce that therefore the equivalent amount of revenue needs to be raised from electricity used for EV's. How could that even work when you have people like Gerry Wrixon charging up using his own solar array:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0601/1224298200715.html



EV's will support indigenous energy production, offsetting a significant proportion of the lost fuel taxes. I can see electricity possibly going up in price, but it won't be by as much as you think.

Daraghot

Thanks very much for all of your comments on EVs.

Over the next six weeks me and Paddy Comyn will be looking at all aspects of the Electric vehicle. Covered during the series will be the history of the EV, where the EV is now and its future in Ireland.

We'll be covering the changes which are expected to take place in battery
technology and will even cover the relevence of the electric vehicle in the commercial sector.

Guests over the coming weeks will include, Bob Montgomery (Irish Times), Chris Paine (Who Killed the Electric Car?), Conor Faughnan (AA Ireland), Shane O’ Donoghue(CompleteCar.ie), Neil Brisco (Edrive Magazine), Myles McAdam (MotorMouth) and many more qualified guests.


Show 1 will look at the history of the electric vehicle. Bob Montgomery of the Irish Times will be giving the history from 1830 and the director of the ground breaking documentary Who Killed the Electric Car?, Chris Paine will be giving the more modern history.

Some comments from this thread will be used in show 2 and show 5.

If you want to download the first podcast (some of the EV history) it'll be available from tomorrow on www.newstalk.ie.

Thanks again,
Daragh

dynamick

I can't find any recent podcasts for this show.

Sesshoumaru

http://media.newstalk.ie/newstalk/media_uploads/upload_mp3/866420346Show_1_the_history_of_the_EV.mp3

munchkin_utd

munchkin_utd wrote: »

and the range/ charging problem of electric cars is very easily fixed.
If you have a small generator engine onboard (which the manufacturers are already working on) you can always get back on the road with conventional petrol/ diesel/ biofuels.

gosh, within a week of me saying it - Opel introduces such a car, the new Ampera with petrol powered "range extender"!
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/business/news/article_1656062.php/Opel-Ampera-to-be-offered-in-Germany-at-special-electricity-tariff

It is powered by an electric motor with an output of 150 hp with a range of between 40 and 80 kilometres. Once the lithium-ion battery pack is depleted an 86 hp 1.4 litre petrol engine takes over that also supplies the electric motor with energy, allowing a total range of 500 kilometres.

I cant find any online links, but its common knowledge amongst auto engineers that this is not the only german auto maker working on such a concept.
I was wondering why it was taking so long for one of them to bring forward production version, although Opel did have a concept car with backup petrol generator a couple of years ago so its not the first time that its been publicly hinted at as a solution to the range problem.

dynamick

Ampera is a plug-in hybrid (PHEV)
The Toyota Prius PHEV is coming out next year with a range of 20km on battery plus 720km petrol
There's a BYD Chinese PHEV with a arnge of 70km electric plus 480km petrol
Volvo has been testing a diesel plugin electric with a short electric range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqPoOmcf9GA

Tesla says they are bringing out an all-electric car with 500km range for 50K USD in 2012.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrtXXrRa5OI

munchkin_utd

dynamick wrote: »

Ampera is a plug-in hybrid (PHEV)
The Toyota Prius PHEV is coming out next year with a range of 20km on battery plus 720km petrol

To be bluntly honest, now that I think about it - a plugin standard hybrid like that prius with only 20km range would be exactly what I and a lot of others need.
With such a vehicle I would slash my fuel bill to next to nothing as I rarely drive more than 10 or 15 km at a time.
And the 10 or 15km is city driving which is a divil on the fuel economy.

dynamick

It seems a waste to have 2 engines one of which is hardly ever used. More stuff to go wrong in later years

Daraghot

This week on the EV podcast we are looking at The EV Now - infrastrcuture.

We're talking to the ESB, SEAI and Carra group Ireland. We're covering what's in store in terms of charge points etc, aswell as infrastructure development in Ireland.

You can listen online here http://www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles/, or if you have an ipod or itunes it can be downloaded here http://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-electric-vehicle-now/id456627368?i=96655937.

Be good,
Daragh

dynamick

I'm enjoying this show.

The Chinese seem to be delaying their electric car program:

China debates electric car policy
By Patti Waldmeir in Shanghai
Beijing appears to be rethinking its singular focus on electric vehicles to reduce fuel consumption and improve air quality as it becomes increasingly clear that its targets for mass-producing electric vehicles in China are unrealistic.
China had planned to leapfrog a generation of conventional engine technology to develop what Beijing hoped would be an early advantage over the west in electric vehicles . No formal decision has been taken to abandon that plan, but top decision-makers in Beijing now see its original timetable as too optimistic.
Wen Jiabao, the Chinese premier, reflected intense debate within the bureaucracy recently in a Communist Party journal article that questioned China’s “road map” towards alternative vehicles. Peter Huang, forecaster at consultants IHS Automotive in Shanghai, expects Beijing to shift its focus now to “hybrids and all vehicles that can reduce fuel consumption”.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b213d66e-ccaf-11e0-b923-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1VwOgQUWN

VW is developing a single seat electric car to be announced at Frankfurt next month.

si_guru

dynamick wrote: »

VW is developing a single seat electric car to be announced at Frankfurt next month.

Oh god!

Daraghot

This week we’re talking to Eric Basset, MD of Renault Ireland. He’ll be telling us what’s in store from Renault with regards to EVs. He also tells us about the Renault leasing policy.

You can listen online here http://www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles/, or if you have an ipod or itunes it can be downloaded here http://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/t...368?i=96655937.

Gearheart

The only way they can work is if it's as convienent as a traditionally fuelled car, and is as cheap to maintenance, but that unfortunatly will take time, but it cant really save you money if you buy a brand new car and within 4 to 6 years the batteries start to give problems

Sesshoumaru

Gearheart wrote: »

The only way they can work is if it's as convienent as a traditionally fuelled car, and is as cheap to maintenance, but that unfortunatly will take time, but it cant really save you money if you buy a brand new car and within 4 to 6 years the batteries start to give problems

Well done. You've clearly researched this extensively. For the rest of us can you let us know how you know the batteries will start giving issues in 4 to 6 years?

Daraghot

This week on the podcast we'll be looking at the Electric Vehicle and the commercial sector.

It'll be available from tomorrow (Tuesday). You can listen online here http://www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles/, or if you have an ipod or itunes it can be downloaded there.

Daraghot

This week on the podcast we are looking at some of the myths and some of the truths about the electric vehicle. We're talking to Seth Fletcher of "Popular Science" - he's also the author of "Bottled Lightning, Super Batteries, Electric Cars and the New Lithium Economy".

Also featuring this week is Conor Faughnan of the AA.

To download go to this address http://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/show-5-myths-final-tricks/id456627368?i=97196260, or you can listen online at http://www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles/.

Be good,
Daragh

Daraghot

This week (the final week) we’re looking at the future of the electric vehicle. What’s in store? We’ll be talking to Neil Brisco of EDrive.ie, Shane O’ Donoghue of CompleteCar.ie and the Chief Engineer of the Zoe project with Renault, Mr. David Twohig. Download on itunes http://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-future-electric-vehicle/id456627368?i=97381400 or listen online at www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles.

reboot

Daraghot wrote: »

This week (the final week) we’re looking at the future of the electric vehicle. What’s in store? We’ll be talking to Neil Brisco of EDrive.ie, Shane O’ Donoghue of CompleteCar.ie and the Chief Engineer of the Zoe project with Renault, Mr. David Twohig. Download on itunes http://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-future-electric-vehicle/id456627368?i=97381400 or listen online at www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles.

Did anyone raise the "Battery Charging Impossible" problem with Renault Zoe at some 22Kw charge Points? This seems to be a major fault condition with the car across Europe.myrenaultzoe.com "Charging Issues" Some CPs in the North have never been capable of charging any Zoe since they were installed,over a year ago.The Renault Elephant in the room?

From rambling through the Zoe forums it seems to not be a huge issue, perhaps due to the coating on the contacts of the Charge socket.

It's my understanding that it effects early Zoe's.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

From rambling through the Zoe forums it seems to not be a huge issue, perhaps due to the coating on the contacts of the Charge socket.

It's my understanding that it effects early Zoe's.

As discussed over a year and a half now, on many forums,and today in Newry, the Zoe refuses to take a charge opposite B&Q. Two other Cps in Newry Centre (Hill St) Iced by local Taxi and white Van Man,sitting in Van. Traffic Warden and PSNI sympathetic but still awaiting legislation to act.
Had I been travelling from Dublin to Belfast, I could have spent the day driving around the other CPs just for fun. Ballynahinch also a no go EV area as Carra had to completely remove the CP because of the Vandals.
As Martin Scheen asked on the Doc, "Who killed the Electric car?"

reboot

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Totally free:

http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Charge_Infrastructur,_Time_Electricity_Supplier/



You don't have to have the ESB as your electricity supplier either. You pay BG or Airtricity or whoever supplies your electricity. The ESB still gives you the free home charger.

The fast charging is free at the moment. Any price I mention is speculative, but I have heard between 2 to 6 euro for a complete charge. No one really knows yet. If Topaz can sell electricity do they need to register as an electricity supplier like ESB/Airtricity/BG? There must be regulations on selling electricity. Hopefully plenty of red tape to keep it free for another while yet (=

The FCP has an LCD screen with some options to select before charging. There is complete charge and then the other option is you specify the number of minutes you want to charge. It does give you a cost after charging (60 cent for a full charge I think), but for now we can just ignore it and drive off. I'm sure the unit cost is adjustable and is probably just on the default setting for now.

Renault fitted a free home CP 32Amp, Economy 7 Power NI 8p/unit at night for the whole house.(So far UK only)

Daraghot

Daraghot wrote: »

This week we’re talking to Eric Basset, MD of Renault Ireland. He’ll be telling us what’s in store from Renault with regards to EVs. He also tells us about the Renault leasing policy.

You can listen online here http://www.newstalk.ie/electric-vehicles/, or if you have an ipod or itunes it can be downloaded here http://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/t...368?i=96655937.

I was a fan of the battery lease if keeping the car long term until I found out in the terms and conditions that Renault will replace or repair the battery as they see fit. SO you could end up with in or around 75% capacity, battery leasing does not entitle you to a new battery, and so as a result I've decided that I wouldn't be getting a Zoe.

I don;t want to spend xxxx on a lease after x amount of years for a "battery repair" when I will have paid the price of a new battery !

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

I was a fan of the battery lease if keeping the car long term until I found out in the terms and conditions that Renault will replace or repair the battery as they see fit. SO you could end up with in or around 75% capacity, battery leasing does not entitle you to a new battery, and so as a result I've decided that I wouldn't be getting a Zoe.

I don;t want to spend xxxx on a lease after x amount of years for a "battery repair" when I will have paid the price of a new battery !

Slightly annoying new battery lease from Renault means New customers may pay as little as £49/month.
Take your point on the 75% capacity. As far as the Battery is concerned I assume as the modules in series deteriorate over time, they will be what Renault replace, not a whole battery?

One runt cell is enough to bring down a series string, so they would most likely replace that string.

The replaced cells have to be in or around the same age and internal resistance so replacing these cells could bring capacity back to in or around 80 %.

The tesla packs are constructed so that this string is eliminated from the pack altogether until repaired.

reboot

Deleted User wrote: »

One runt cell is enough to bring down a series string, so they would most likely replace that string.

The replaced cells have to be in or around the same age and internal resistance so replacing these cells could bring capacity back to in or around 80 %.

The tesla packs are constructed so that this string is eliminated from the pack altogether until repaired.

Do we know if the charge current is being split between the cells?,I assume 100 amps is not flowing through each cell in series,or is it?

bipedalhumanoid

I saw a british ad for the leaf that suggested there is a monthly rental charge for the battery. Is that the case in Ireland?

bipedalhumanoid

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

I saw a british ad for the leaf that suggested there is a monthly rental charge for the battery. Is that the case in Ireland?

No the option to rent is not even given in Ireland.

Current indications on the 2015 model suggest a chemistry change though this is unconfirmed.

I think this may have been introduced in 2014, seemingly the battery is lasting very well.

I tested the battery ( via leafspy) of a 2014 Leaf with 30K Kms and had 544 fast charges and about the same in normal charges and the battery still showed 100% capacity, this is not observed in the original leaf at all.

The 2014 leaf still had exactly the same amp hours as my 7 week old 2015.

Whether this is a trick by Nissan or not to fool people into thinking there is more capacity or not remains unknown.

I tested a 2013 demo I had for a few days last year and it had lost 3% after 3,000 miles. And had not got nearly the amount of fast charges.

So it could be very well that this generation Leaf battery is highly resilient to heat and fast charging. Certainly after 30K kms and 544 fast charges you would have expected to loose a few % to say the least.

Anyway, it could be the case you would not have to consider leasing the battery.

From researching the US Leaf forum there certainly seems to be some change in the battery chemistry and I have posted my findings there also with pics.

bipedalhumanoid

Sounds promising. I noticed the Nissan site is suggesting the range in ideal conditions was 200km. I had always thought the range was 140km in ideal conditions. Has the range actually improved since the original leaf?

I have 70-85km round trip to do each day, so need to know that I can do at least that in any kind of driving conditions. Preferably on an 80% charge. Am I safe enough?

bipedalhumanoid

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

Sounds promising. I noticed the Nissan site is suggesting the range in ideal conditions was 200km. I had always thought the range was 140km in ideal conditions. Has the range actually improved since the original leaf?

I have 70-85km round trip to do each day, so need to know that I can do at least that in any kind of driving conditions. Preferably on an 80% charge. Am I safe enough?

85 Kms should be no problem at 100-110 Kph, by the time I get back to the Naas fast charger I've done about 85 Kms and have between 20-25% capacity left. I don't like to run it down below this so i fast charge to 60% and get back home with about 20-25%.

So in theory you could do about 110 kms on a new battery. But you don't want to run it down too low all the time.

In Summer you could probably get an extra 15-20 kms . Though I have not had the car long enough to know.

reboot

Daraghot wrote: »

Long time no write on boards.ie!

Daragh Ó Tuama here from MotorMouth in Newstalk. We're currently working on a 6 part podcast for Newstalk on the electric vehicle. I'm hoping to get your thoughts on EVs so I can let our listeners know what the boardies think.

Sooo, if you have any thoughts, any thoughts at all all on the EV would you mind posting them here? We'll be recording over the next few days, and I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

Kind Regards,
Daragh

I have been at this EV car thing for nearly two years,and if your not careful the whole thing will drive you mad, and give you a breakdown, (Sorry). Here are my thoughts to keep it simple.
1 I started the" Thread for pure EV owners please", otherwise the arguments will go on for ever over into which is better Ice cars or electric, forget that and move on.
2 I drive a Renault Zoe and live in S.Down, I had to leave the Facebook group which seemed to be a cold place for non Leaf drivers (irishevowners)
The Leaf is by far the Ecar in the South,but then not many others are imported, I didn't make too many friends comparing the Leaf to the Model T ford.
3 You will find incontinent posting with some individuals ,who seem to take pleasure in surfing around in order to snipe at other posts,guess that happens everywhere.
4 Major differences appear between North and South, although monies from Europe figure in the mix, which is why I have to call Dublin to report a faulty charge point.
5 I posted recently that Power NI are removing the economy 7 tariff from April, which will mean EV owners will have to pay almost double for the electricity at night.
6 Two engineers service faulty charge points,(Hundreds) in the North ,including Donegal.I regularly wait months for repairs in Newcastle. This may involve long debates with the manufacturer in Munich.
7 Ecarni.com seem to operate on a shoestring with only 3 or 4 staff,out of Belfast,with little to no feedback on flagging faults on their map etc.
8 On the plus side, Renault do supply a free CP at home which up here is 32Amp, I believe ESB only supply 16 Amp, taking twice as long to charge your vehicle. There is no road tax, and 5k off the price of the car.
Sadly there has been a major fault with the Zoe and a large number of Cps, NIE do not appear to be able to correct the fault, but then the electricity is still free in the street, and they have to loose 10% of their staff, so not terrible interested in a solution, I asked for the last 19 months.
There are many more issues, maybe you need two series? Good Luck.

Have to say that my experiences in the last 2 months have been mainly positive. 3 times were there two people charging before me and on one occasion a gentleman in a plug in Outlander kindly let me plug in to charge while he went into the Tesco to shop. I plugged him in after and started the charge for him. (isn't it nice to be nice ?) Just one word of caution, if you go away and someone says you can unplug them after xx amount of time then make sure they have the lock off or you will not be able to remove the plug or stop the charge.

I hear a lot of charge points, not sure whether standard of fast charge but seemingly the Zoe is killing some, though I'll probably get a lot of flack for saying this but I heard it first hand from one of the charge point engineers.

I too removed myself form Irishevowners and even though I own a leaf it was quiet sickening the fact some would not accept the leaf wasn't perfect.


Zoe has a brilliant charger and more and more ev's should have faster AC charging.

There's no point getting into a battle with the leaf V zoe, like any car, you either like it or don't but the Leccy motor in the zoe is leaps and bounds better than any under powered engine Renault normally stick into a Zoe sized car.

I did my research and I can tell you, it's EV for me from now on, I will not go back to petrol/diesel/hybrid ever again as my main car. Yes I will drive my partners diesel for the really long drives that is 100 + miles, or if we want to take a spin around the west coast, I just couldn't be bothered doing this in a leaf.

Credit where credit is due, the leaf is a fantastic car and it also has faults, the big one, range and I am willing to spend 15 mins a day to charge to complete my 85 mile round trip but I could do with 5-10 mins but i don;t like running the battery too low.

My leaf is doing more miles per day than the diesel !

I love driving with no exhaust, and passing petrol stations and putting that money instead into the car repayments. yes it does make me feel good and despite my electricity coming mainly from Gas and some wind it's still leaps and bounds cleaner than petrol/diesel especially when you consider the wasted electricity required to refine petrol and diesel is simply staggering and something people do not realise and this isn't even taking into account the energy required for oil extraction or transportation to/from the refinery.

My experience with the leaf is mainly positive and there have been and will be glitches in the charging infrastructure but it will get better and also the 2nd generation electrics will have a lot more range in just 2-3 years time and will greatly ease the burden on the electric network.

It is a shame Kia Ireland decided not to import the Kia Soul EV and decided for the Irish people that we don't want it, they don't even tell you it exists because they do not want to retrain and retool for electrics. I would urge people to ring Kia Ireland, not their local Kia dealer they will not be interested. The Kia is a very good car and i would have bought it only I can't but it's by far the best affordable EV available at this time !

But as I said, I will not go back to ICE ever again as my main car !