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Electric Vehicles - Your thoughts - MotorMouth, Newstalk
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She has good taste. I would be driving one myself if I didn't need the load carrying capacity of my Civic type R
I'm too lazy, but someone did it for the UK which wouldn't be far off:
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18223974&page=7
Those calculations in the UK are 3 times more expensive than the real life example here:
2,100km costs €20 - €0.009 per km
3.7p per mile is equivalent to €0.042 per mile (0.877 exchange rate) or €0.026 per km.
i.e 3 times more than the real life example.0 -
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This is directed at no one in particular, but can people stop quoting Top Gear's charging time of 13 hours. That is the time it takes if you plug into a normal 3 pin domestic socket.
In Ireland the ESB has disallowed this charging method. All home charging is done by a dedicated (and free) external 16 amp home charging unit. Charge time is 7 hours maximum (tested by me, 0% to 100% on home charger). All slow on street chargers currently being installed do either 16 amp or 32 amp charging as well. So that 7 hours on the street as well, or 3 to 4 hours for next years Ford Focus EV and Renault Fluence ZE.
There is no 13 hour charge time in Ireland
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The LEAF uses 0.2113 kwh per km (wiki)
The Eirtricty price on my bill for 1 kwh is €0.141
So the cost per km is €0.03 - rounding to the cent - not €0.009
The Nissan Note I used in my previous example gets 5.9l per 100k
With diesel costing 1.41 (pumps.ie) the cost per km is €0.08 rounded
66% of the cost of fuel is tax so the fuel costs per km for the Note would be €0.03 rounded - the same as the LEAF - surprise, surprise.
Even with the current tax regime (€0.08 per km), The LEAF only breaks even with the Note after being driven 107,500 km, given the €8600 price difference between the two after the subsidy - without the subsidy, the break even point would be 170,000 km
Without the massive Tax skewing, the Note would would be much, much cheaper to own and operate.
Here are my stats for July
You can't say I didn't cover much ground and my average economy is much better than what you got from Wikipedia.
Also my ESB bill says I pay .07 euro/kwh + VAT at 13.5% for night rate charging. This is when I and all other EV owners I know, charge our cars.
If you'd read any posts on here you'd know the Leaf has a charging scheduler. You can plug it in at home whenever you like, but it won't start charging until a time I've told it to start. 00:10 each night for me. So it is perfectly convenient to charge at night.0 -
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The E6 battery technology looks good.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/BYD-e6-first-drive/257839/
BYD currently limits testing to its premises, which prevents a full test of its claimed range of 186 miles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aoY6mupCtU0 -
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »My family and I have a Nissan Leaf. My wife and I have two young daughters and we got rid of both our old ICE cars in order to get a Nissan Leaf. We've had it over 3 months now and have done more than 7500km in it. It is our only car and it meets my families needs very well.
My eldest daughter is 4 years old and the youngest is 8 months. So my opinion on the car itself is coming from the perspective of a young family man. The car we used to have as our primary family car was a 2000 model Audi A6 Avant Quattro Sport 2.5TDI. This was a nice large estate car for a family. In comparison the boot the in Leaf is smaller, but large enough to accommodate baby buggy, shopping and anything else we like to throw in the boot usually.
Interior space in the car for passengers is on par with what we had in the Audi, for both front seat and back seat passengers. The car is very roomy on the interior. Overall everything is quite well put together and looks like it will stand up to abuse from kids.
The car has a lot of modern multimedia features like USB port, bluetooth, audio jack etc. Great for entertaining kids as you can easily put their favourite songs on USB memory sticks to play in the car. Safety wise it scored 5 stars on the Euro NCAP.
http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2011/432.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbwQva75bbQ&feature=player_embedded#at=126
Handling wise the centre of gravity is very low on the car. This car was purpose built as an EV, not a redesigned petrol/diesel car. As such the batteries are below the passenger compartment running along the floor. This gives the car a perfect 50/50 weight distribution and low centre of gravity. While the steering is a little light, the car is a joy to drive. With 108bhp and 280 newton metres of torque, I'm very happy with the power available from the car. Of course as a modern car it also comes equipped with ABS and ESP as standard.
The car has a lot of intelligent features, I won't go into all of them. But features people will end up using a lot are the charging timer and climate control timer. In relation to the charging timer I have the car set as follows:
Monday to Thursday:
Start charging at 00:10
Charge to 80%
Friday to Sunday
Start charging at 00:10
Charge to 100%
This means I get home and I plug the car in, but it doesn't start charging until just after midnight. This way I take advantage of ESB night rates without having to go out to the car at midnight to plug it in then. The car also has a subscription free connection to the internet built-in. If you want it to, it can keep track of all journeys you make and it automatically keeps track of all energy used to charge it. This is then stored online and available for you to access using your username and password. This means I can log on to the Nissan Leaf portal online and see exactly how much the car is costing me. See screenshot below from my own portal (price below excludes VAT at 13.5%).
The climate control timer I haven't used much yet as it's summer time. But basically you can schedule when you want the climate control to activate on whatever days and times you want. So in winter you could have the car start heating itself at 7:30am every Monday to Friday. Advantages of this are that when you get to your car it is nice and warm and fully defrosted. It also means it was all done using power from the charging unit on your house. When plugged in the car uses power from the plug to run the climate control. Before you leave for work your car is warm, defrosted and no power has been used from your battery leaving you with a full charge before you leave for work.
As far as range goes we actually drive more since we got our EV. Sunday afternoon drive? why not! It's only going to cost 1 to 2 euro for a leisurely spin. Beforehand we would drive less because a full tank of fuel would cost us 85 euro. If we want to go further we don't have to wait 7 hours (time it takes to charge from 0% to 100% on home charger or on street charger). We can just pull into a fuel station like this one in Newlands Cross Topaz
This Fast Charger can take the Leaf from 0% to 84% in 30 minutes. Presumably you won't enter the station with 0% left, so most times getting back up to 84% charge will take less than 30 minutes. Too long for some, but a compromise my wife and I are happy to live with considering the other advantages of our EV.
Fast Charging technology also mean longer journeys are possible. As soon as the Topaz in Athlone has its Fast Charger operational we will be able to drive from Dublin to Galway with one 30 minute stop in between. Considering we have two young kids, this is not really an inconvenience, we would be stopping anyway. Not suitable for everybody, but for us we consider it a small sacrifice to gain the other immense advantages of owning an EV.
You'll probably get a lot of comments about EV's transferring the pollution back to power stations, they're not emission free etc. The common theme with these comments are usually that modern diesel engines will have similar or outperform EV's on emissions. I'd ask you to do your homework on this before just accepting those comments at face value. The emissions from a diesel or petrol car as rated by the manufacturer are only those at the point of emission i.e. the carbon the car itself emits while burning fossil fuels. This is the figure most people use when comparing their modern diesel car to an EV's emissions from the power plant. This completely ignores the fact that it takes a lot of energy (carbon emitted) to get oil out of the ground/seabed, transport it, refine it and transport it again (possibly several more times) before it ever goes into a cars fuel tank. Please check out these links:
http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_consumer/Power_Station_to_Wheels/
http://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_wtw.pdf
I have to admit though I'm not a tree hugging hippy. I care about our planet, but I didn't want to save the planet by buying a Leaf. At the moment 14% of electricity in Ireland is generated by renewable sources. This can be and should be increased. This is energy we can generate ourselves without sending our money overseas to unstable oil producing regimes. People can go on and on about half the cost of petrol/diesel being taxes. But that other half leaves our country, leaves Europe even! and goes to places like Libya (where 20% of our oil used to come from before the war). If we use EV's and charge them using domestically produced energy, that's money and jobs staying in Ireland.
The other big reason we chose to get rid of our ICE cars and go with one EV as our family car is that, in the long run it will be a lot cheaper than owning a petrol or diesel car. How many moving part does a petrol or diesel car have in their engine? Hundreds! An EV motor has about 5 moving parts and electric motors are not new untested technology. We've been using them for years in trains and boats etc. The car has normal wear and tear items like tyres, brake pads and shocks etc. But with regenerative braking being easy on brake pads and the silky smooth electric motor easy on the tyres, that only leaves shocks and there is no reason for them to need regular maintenance if the car is driven with respect.
That only leaves the battery pack, which Nissan says will still have 80% capacity after 10 years. In Ireland it has a 5 year warranty and in the US the battery pack has an 8 year warranty. So I'm happy it will last a very long time. But long before the battery pack is useless, I expect I'll be able to put in a newer battery pack as technology improves. It's just a big battery after all.
Overall we're really happy with our EV and would not consider going back to owning a diesel or petrol car. It cost a lot up front, but as a long term investment it will work out cheaper. Considering the long term cost of something is not something we Irish are famed for! But I'm hoping EV's will be different.
*edit*
Last point:
Eddie Hobbs made a comment that the type of people buying these cars are the type who own Range Rover Sports and have the Nissan Leaf as a second car for appearances. That was just his bigoted opinion based on no evidence whatsoever. My family and I are regular middle class. I've met up with several other Nissan Leaf owners and most of them like me have their Nissan Leaf as their only car. They are all also firmly middle class. I haven't met any rich Nissan Leaf owners, but I'm sure they do exist. Maybe Eddie Hobbs as a member of the rich class in Ireland might be considering purchasing one?
The depreciation and cost of finance are OTT considering it is asmall car. If the equivelent diesel is 20k, then the cost of finance and depreciation will be 6k more over 3 years, or 2k a year, enough for the diesel to fill the tank. I salute you though for being a pioneer.0 -
Sesshoumaru wrote: »This is directed at no one in particular, but can people stop quoting Top Gear's charging time of 13 hours. That is the time it takes if you plug into a normal 3 pin domestic socket.
In Ireland the ESB has disallowed this charging method. All home charging is done by a dedicated (and free) external 16 amp home charging unit. Charge time is 7 hours maximum (tested by me, 0% to 100% on home charger). All slow on street chargers currently being installed do either 16 amp or 32 amp charging as well. So that 7 hours on the street as well, or 3 to 4 hours for next years Ford Focus EV and Renault Fluence ZE.
There is no 13 hour charge time in Ireland
so are you telling me, if i have this right , that the ESB wont allow you to charge your leaf from a normal socket ? have they taken away the cable ? disabled it on the car or ??0 -
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Of course the other side to the EV coin (for now, at least..), is rather invisible, and less savoury.
I can't blame OP for buying and using one, as it's obviously working well - I would do the same.
However, it won't always be that way: if EV's become 'the norm' then it's inevitable that cost of ownership will increase (ignoring purchase cost).
This is because, for now, every EV, Hybrid and low CO2 car is subsidised, to purchase, by those of us who don't have one.
Worse, their (lack of) tax is even further subsidised by those of us who, again, don't have one...........or even if we do, are denied by Revenue, of just tax treatment. Consider: CO2 emission output has been a recordable requirement under EU legislation for many years. Yet our govt has decided to only allow those post Jan 1 2008 to enjoy the benefit's. It should, by right, be extended to all.
And so, the 'haves' will contine to prosper, while the 'not-so-haves' will be paying for it.
And consider further: two different govt's have decreed, by sanctioning scrappage schemes', that a car of 10yrs or older, is worthless. Yet they continue to plunder owner's of same, for Motor Tax. Or am I the only one who sees this...?
If tax Revenue continues to implode, due to the unsubstantiable nature of the low CO2 tax regime, Revenue will eventually revert to type. It'll be a few years yet, but I can't see them not doing it.........
I pay tax as well you know, a fair chunk of it. It's also my opinion that EV's will get cheaper as battery technology improves and mass production kicks in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#ProductionCommercial US production is slated to begin in late 2012 at Nissan's manufacturing facility in Smyrna, Tennessee. This US plant will be modified with a US$1.4 billion loan granted by the US Department of Energy to allow the manufacturing plant to produce the Nissan Leaf and its advanced batteries. The retooled plant is expected to create 1,300 jobs.[92][93] The Smyrna plant is expected to produce up to 150,000 vehicles and 200,000 battery packs annually.[93]
The Leaf will also be produced at Nissan's plant in Sunderland, England, beginning in 2013.[94] Nissan will benefit from a GB£20.7 million grant from the British government and up to GB£220 million from the European Investment Bank.[94][95] The plant will produce 60,000 lithium-ion batteries a year, and it also is expected to deliver 50,000 Leaf EVs a year.[94] Once production starts at the Sunderland plant, Nissan expects to reduce the Leaf price in the European market by 2013.[96]
From my perspective the car is expensive even with its 5k subsidy. I feel by purchasing now that I am in fact subsidising future purchasers of EV's by dipping into my own pocket and helping kick start the revolution 0 -
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Sesshoumaru wrote: »I pay tax as well you know, a fair chunk of it. It's also my opinion that EV's will get cheaper as battery technology improves and mass production kicks in.
You're missing my point - I never said you didn't pay tax. If both of us were doing the same job, same place, same circumstances, we would both pay the same. However, I would be the one subsidising your transport - where do you think the VRT subsidy comes from ?Sesshoumaru wrote: »[/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Production
From my perspective the car is expensive even with its 5k subsidy. I feel by purchasing now that I am in fact subsidising future purchasers of EV's by dipping into my own pocket and helping kick start the revolution
Yes, you're right: the car IS expensive. You aren't subsidising anyone - it's the other way around.
The point I'm making is that, say over time, the car halves in price - all that will be down to Nissan and it's engineering, and success in the market. What I'm pointing out is that as that happens, and the EV market grows (which it will, no issue with that), the govt here will come up with new taxes to put on them, to claw back all that it is losing in VRT, but more importantly, fuel excise's, into the future. With car-related taxes down from €1bn to €400m (or some such...), the exchequer isn't going to sit idly by.......it has nothing to do with Nissan, technology, or the market -it's the fact that this State's largest cash cow will be going away from it.....we all know it's motor taxes that pays for school's, hospital's etc etc....
Remember, outside of the words 'tax increases', the Revenue's favourite words are 'tax neutral'.........Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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You're missing my point - I never said you didn't pay tax. If both of us were doing the same job, same place, same circumstances, we would both pay the same. However, I would be the one subsidising your transport - where do you think the VRT subsidy comes from ?
Yes, you're right: the car IS expensive. You aren't subsidising anyone - it's the other way around.
The point I'm making is that, say over time, the car halves in price - all that will be down to Nissan and it's engineering, and success in the market. What I'm pointing out is that as that happens, and the EV market grows (which it will, no issue with that), the govt here will come up with new taxes to put on them, to claw back all that it is losing in VRT, but more importantly, fuel excise's, into the future. With car-related taxes down from €1bn to €400m (or some such...), the exchequer isn't going to sit idly by.......it has nothing to do with Nissan, technology, or the market -it's the fact that this State's largest cash cow will be going away from it.....we all know it's motor taxes that pays for school's, hospital's etc etc....
Remember, outside of the words 'tax increases', the Revenue's favourite words are 'tax neutral'.........
Sorry but you haven't convinced me. Early adopters of technology subsidise those who come later. EV's, laptops, smartphones etc it's the same for all of those. Early adopters pay a premium for new technology, new technology is considered successful and eventually as a result new technology comes down in price.
I raised this point earlier, but with all the talk of taxes, taxes, taxes etc People tend to forget that the other half of fossil fuels cost goes out of the country and back to unstable oil producing regimes like Saudi Arabia. If everyone was using EV's and we powered them using domestically produced energy, then that would be 100% of our money spent on transportation energy staying in Ireland.
That's what I call supporting local tax paying jobs in this country. You can't just take the reduction in income from fossil fuel taxes in isolation and deduce that therefore the equivalent amount of revenue needs to be raised from electricity used for EV's. How could that even work when you have people like Gerry Wrixon charging up using his own solar array:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0601/1224298200715.html
EV's will support indigenous energy production, offsetting a significant proportion of the lost fuel taxes. I can see electricity possibly going up in price, but it won't be by as much as you think.0 -
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Ampera is a plug-in hybrid (PHEV)
The Toyota Prius PHEV is coming out next year with a range of 20km on battery plus 720km petrol
There's a BYD Chinese PHEV with a arnge of 70km electric plus 480km petrol
Volvo has been testing a diesel plugin electric with a short electric range.
Tesla says they are bringing out an all-electric car with 500km range for 50K USD in 2012.
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