"Let's boot out muggers"

Sir Oxman

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I don't know, are there?

I don't know either.
Does anyone know?

AlekSmart

The Corinthian wrote: »

Indeed, and the same can be said for those who you will find in Rome; those in Ireland are quite tame by comparison. Going further, I remember telling my schoolmates, as a child, that they had it easy, when they'd complain about travelers

SNIP........

The issue is not of race or even citizenship, but one of 'culture'. If you're raised in a culture that is consistently antisocial, then you will likely become antisocial and the culture you belong to will be treated with suspicion or even contempt by the rest of society. And you don't need to be a different race for this to happen - most would treat inner city 'skanngers', who have grown up in a similar culture of dependance and crime, in exactly the same way as any gypsy.

Instead we seem to turn the entire thing into a question of race and past history as some form of justification. Even Travelers are desperately seeking political capital in this manner, which is ridiculous because even if they were another race, they're not subject to racism because people generally have to believe you're of another race before they can be racist against you.

SNIP.........

Ultimately race, history and all the rest of that baloney, is simply politically correct justification that distracts us and solves nothing. The problem is that their culture, not race or nationality, is malignant in civilized society and until that is addressed people's attitudes will rightly remain unchanged.

Written like a true Letter to The Corinthians !

Probably the best post I've read on Boards regarding the Societal Situation we now see starting to creep over the bulwark.

The present events in London Town should be making us all a bit less acceptant of much of the Hi-Toned Moral High-Ground stuff which tends to be dispensed in order to show the lower orders that it's really their own fault for failing to make the effort to understand these wild and exotic types.

Great Post- Should be a Sticky !!

A Primal Nut

gambiaman wrote: »

FYP.

Are there any Roma in legal employment in this country?

To be fair its very difficult for any Romanians/Bulgarians to work here, especially without education. So I'd say its unlikely many Gypsies fit those requirements. They have to have a job offer with a salary above 30000 euro, in certain job types only, and their employer must satisfy a labour market test; or alternatively they can have any job offer above 60000 euro.

http://www.djei.ie/publications/labour/2010/employmentpermitinformation-romanians-july2010.pdf

As very gypsies have any kind of education its unlikely they could ever work legally in Ireland under the current rules. Why they are allowed stay longer than three months without a job, is anyone's guess. Suppose its the usual that governments are afraid of been seen as racist - look at the abuse Michael McDowell got for some rather moderate attempts at immigration reform - some people called him a Nazi and wasn't long till he was booted out of office. Unfortunate, but its the reality of politics in Ireland and it will be long time until someone tries to do anything about immigration again.

johnnyskeleton

Kivaro wrote: »

I wonder if we are mature enough to discuss the article on the Irish Independent, where Eamon Delaney discusses the behavior of some Roma gypsies. I am actually surprised to see this topic in a national newspaper (que the usual retort about the Sindo ...), but isn't about time that the matter was debated without the usual name-throwing.

In order to debate these topics without name throwing, one has to have facts rather than opinion. Therefore, I don't see how you can start a thread about an opinion piece and expect it not to degenerate into a slagging match between the people of opposing opinions.

Kivaro wrote: »

I left Ireland a number of years ago partly due to the welfare state mentality and the lack of an adequate response to this and other social issues. Having to put up with an apathetic electorate with the corresponding benign political structure AND the Irish weather was a bit too much for me. I still have a stake in the country with one parent, multiple siblings and many friends regaling me with stories about Roma gypsies mugging the vulnerable, while at the same time enjoying the benefits of free housing and all the other goodies that the Irish taxpayer endow on them.

This requires some evidence in my view. Prove that they are enjoying the benefits of free housing and all the other goodies that the Irish taxpayer endows on them. Because the law is that you have to qualify for social welfare, you don't get it automatically and have to satisfy the habitual residence clause in order to get benefits.

Also, where is your evidence of them "mugging the vulnerable"? The worst view of Roma Gypsies that I've heard of is for begging and pickpocketing. I haven't heard of them as violent criminals.

Further, why target one particular group? Why not target all "muggers" or whatever you want to call them.

The Roma are one of the most persecuted social groups in Europe. They beg because they can't get jobs and they can't get jobs because they beg. This is the stereotype and I'm not going to deny that stereotypes often have an element of truth to them. But IMO there is a big difference between targeting people because of what they do (e.g. criminals) and because of their ethnicity (e.g. Roma).

Finally, consider this: no one hates the Gypsies more than the Romanians. In much the same way that a lot of the poor view of the Irish abroad was (rightly or wrongly) due to members of the travelling community, Romanians are also tarred with the same brush and find it very hard to get jobs or even get the genuine social welfare payments that they are entitled to (e.g. because they worked for years and have been made redundant). I think this latter part is important.

Kivaro wrote: »

Here are some interesting questions in the article:

• If Australia, and the US can cherry-pick their immigrants, then why has a small country like Ireland ended up with all these aggressive beggars in their big skirts?

I think both you and he know the answer to this already, as evidenced by the next question:

• And if it is an obligation of the EU membership, which supposedly gives us so many benefits, then how come President Sarkozy in France can quite rightly have the Roma booted out of Paris where they were also a menace?

France signed up to a different level of accession with Romania but even still, there is a correct way to remove people and there is an incorrect way, and removals en bloc are not the correct way to do it. If each has an individual assessment then they can be removed.

Kivaro wrote: »

• But why do we have to put up with it? That is what everyone asks. And why do the politicians do nothing, and say nothing?

What exactly are you putting up with? If they are entitled to welfare they are entitled to welfare. If they are not they are not. If they commit acts of violent crime it should be reported, and they will be punished accordingly.

In fact, it is arguable that Roma Gypsies who are brought before the Courts for Public Order offences are treated less favourably and given harsher sentences than people of other ethnic backgrounds for the same thing. I suspect (but of course can't prove) that the gardai are much more likely to arrest a Roma Gypsie under the new aggressive begging laws than they are to arrest an Irish drug addict, even though the latter's begging might be more aggressive/intimidating than the formers.

The Corinthian

A Primal Nut wrote: »

As very gypsies have any kind of education its unlikely they could ever work legally in Ireland under the current rules.

Declaring oneself self employed is one legal means to retain residency, not just in Ireland but in a good few countries. Not that one needs that really, because it comes down to enforcement and unless it involves tax discs, the Gardai are not terribly good at enforcing anything.

All of which is moot anyway, because it presumes any interest in normal employment by gypsies. To return to my earlier comparison with another anti-social culture, of inner city 'skangers', I'm reminded of the scandal a few years ago (some may remember - during the Tiger years), when Fas sent out notices to 500 school leavers, from inner city deprived areas, asking them to turn up to attend interviews for courses. One turned up.

If you've been brought up in a culture where social welfare and crime is normal, then asking how many have normal jobs becomes almost pointless. It's like asking Decco from the Mansions what he would like to read in university.

This is why for me the cries of racism ring like false; it's ultimately a nurture rather than nature issue. Problem is that to deal with the true problem would undoubtedly "harm the unique ethnic culture of [insert_parasitic_group]", especially when that group would be resistant to such change.

The Corinthian

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Finally, consider this: no one hates the Gypsies more than the Romanians.

You've not spent much time in Hungary then...

johnnyskeleton

opo wrote: »

Therefore, I am of the opinion they had a unique opportunity to present themselves anew here. Guess what happened?

What happened? Well, let's agree that they came here for a clean start and a new life away from the prejudices of their old countries. First, Romanians and Hungarians were, alone of the new accession states, not permitted to work here without a work permit. Then, they were not given any social assistance. Finally, no sooner had a few started begging than we imported the old prejudices against them. So don't lets pretend that they had a chance for a new start in Ireland but didn't take it. They were not exactly welcomed with open arms.

The Corinthian

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What happened? Well, let's agree that they came here for a clean start and a new life away from the prejudices of their old countries. First, Romanians and Hungarians were, alone of the new accession states, not permitted to work here without a work permit. Then, they were not given any social assistance. Finally, no sooner had a few started begging than we imported the old prejudices against them. So don't lets pretend that they had a chance for a new start in Ireland but didn't take it. They were not exactly welcomed with open arms.

But didn't non-gypsy Romanians and Hungarians (and Bulgarians) also have the same permit restrictions? In fact, Hungarians didn't even have those restrictions, regardless of whether they were gypsies or not. And when gypsies arrived first, the Irish didn't have a clue about them or the difference between them - yet the non-gypsy Romanians and Hungarians (and Bulgarians) have done their best (as much as any other group) to find employment, pay taxes and integrate and the gypsies were begging from day one.

I'm afraid that your argument does not hold up to the facts.

Nodin

The Corinthian wrote: »

You've not spent much time in Hungary then...

And I believe the Czech and Slovak republics aren't exactly friendly to them either.

beagle001

I was in France recently and in Paris the streets are full of Roma gypsies begging,they have been at this for years and Sarkozys new legislation was only a vote buying exercise,its the same with the veil on the muslims loads walking around with it.
The root problem is with Europe,we have become a honeycomb for all the lazy,useless immigrants as the system is designed to be kind to them and gives them so much protection that the bureaucrats through the years have lacked liathroidi and the whole EU is a mess that actually discriminates against the genuine citizens who have to put up with these free loaders and support them.
I see the same ones in my town for years Roma gypsies begging on a daily basis at select cornerswith disability walkers no doubt paid for by the health board.
I remember an incident a few years back where the Roma gypsy who begged outside our office in Paris was creaming between 150 and 200 euros a day,we could see them pull up at a major street off the Champs Elyseee and 6 of them would get out each carrying a crutch and go to a separate street to begg each day.
I have seen them targeting drunks in Ireland but the legislation is not strong enough to deal with this scum,the genuine Romanian people dispise all the Roma and for good reason,they are not the only crowd hassleing in ireland.
Rule of thumb never ever give money to these people and unfortunately the way Europe dictates to Ireland they will be a part of the landscape for decades along with all the other welfare holidaying immigrants.

Nodin

beagle001 wrote: »

.............. with all the other welfare holidaying immigrants.

You can't turn up here and claim welfare. This has been pointed out numerous times before.

The Corinthian

beagle001 wrote: »

the whole EU is a mess that actually discriminates against the genuine citizens who have to put up with these free loaders and support them.

Personally there's quite a few freeloading 'genuine citizens' I'd rather like to expel too.

beagle001

Ohh and they are training their young ones in the art of thiefing,I caught a group of 4 Roma kids on the hop from school around the back of an historic church in our town.
I was parking my bike when I noticed them shaking and smashing a poor box for the blind,they had cut the steel chain and made off with the majority of takings,I gave chase and they dropped half of it.
My friend used to own a shop and two of his staff were spat at by the roma,they used steal all the sugars just for the sake of stealing.
Ohh and to a previous poster please explain to me why thousands of them receive state benefits and free accomodation as the ones I have seen are in there late 50`s and definitiley never built up enough stamps.
They go to the community welfare officer who then gives them money another problem in our country and I am sure people will come defending them on this post.

Nodin

beagle001 wrote: »

............
Ohh and to a previous poster please explain to me why thousands of them receive state benefits and free accomodation as the ones I have seen are in there late 50`s and definitiley never built up enough stamps.
They go to the community welfare officer who then gives them money another problem in our country and I am sure people will come defending them on this post.

Theres thousands of them now?

How do you know for a fact who has and has not enough stamps?

beagle001

The Corinthian wrote: »

Personally there's quite a few freeloading 'genuine citizens' I'd rather like to expel too.

Yes I agree with you but the system is a mess and they are totally protected to go about scaming the country but in this thread we are discussing the Roma who abuse the system there are plenty of other threads dealing with our own free loading parasites as well as the recent pathogens that have infected our system.

beagle001

Nodin wrote: »

Theres thousands of them now?

How do you know for a fact who has and has not enough stamps?

Here we go again ,sighh will you pull me a report to prove otherwise.
I give up not geting involved in this thread its depressing the same old nay sayers.

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

Theres thousands of them now?

How do you know for a fact who has and has not enough stamps?

you need a job to get stamps. you know many of them in employment?

unfortunately we made our bed when we agreed to free movement within the eu and let in the countries they come from in.

best we can do is be vigilant around them and don't ever give them money.

johnnyskeleton

The Corinthian wrote: »

But didn't non-gypsy Romanians and Hungarians (and Bulgarians) also have the same permit restrictions? In fact, Hungarians didn't even have those restrictions, regardless of whether they were gypsies or not. And when gypsies arrived first, the Irish didn't have a clue about them or the difference between them - yet the non-gypsy Romanians and Hungarians (and Bulgarians) have done their best (as much as any other group) to find employment, pay taxes and integrate and the gypsies were begging from day one.

I'm afraid that your argument does not hold up to the facts.

Don't forget that it is your argument, not mine. You were making the point that they had a chance for a fresh start, but didn't take it. The non-gypsy Romanians and Bulgarians had to get work permits and this only allows work in certain, in demand jobs. So it would be predominantly skilled or educated workers. If the gypsies don't have these skills and education, then they can hardly be compared to the highly educated non-gypsy workers. That they would have had more of a push factor away from Romania/Bulgaria than others (who if they cannot work may find it easier to return to Romania/Bulgaria) is also an important consideration.

But in any event, lets not get sidetracked. You argued that they were given an opportunity for a fresh start, but I find that difficult to believe when there wasn't much prospect for employment of a Romanian/Bulgarian unskilled worked.

walshb

Heer we go again with the same old same old...

Simple: Romas are a serious issue all across Europe, and it's about time we did something about it, humanely, of course.;)

Gar965

Any EU citizen is allowed enter Ireland for 3months or 90days. After that period you must be able to show that you can support yourself and have private medical insurance.

These particular people come in for the 90day period and leave for a day and then come back in, and yes going to Belfast counts as leaving.

If these people are sticking to the rules there is nothing anyone can do. If they are involved in criminality and have been convicted of an offence that is serious enough they can be removed under EU legislation ie EU free Movement regulations 2006

beagle001

Walsh b do you honestly think that Europe wil do anything about them,unfortunately we are doomed to deal the Roma for generations.
This trend will continue in Ireland more gypsies and their cronies milking the system and abusing our laws.

The Corinthian

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Don't forget that it is your argument, not mine. You were making the point that they had a chance for a fresh start, but didn't take it.

Actually, if you read what I wrote, I never made any such argument. I simply rebutted your argument that they were held back by permit regulations in Ireland, when in reality they were no more held back than their non-gypsy compatriots.

The non-gypsy Romanians and Bulgarians had to get work permits and this only allows work in certain, in demand jobs. So it would be predominantly skilled or educated workers.

Arguable - such was our desire for labour that many of the jobs filled by such non-nationals were not skilled, because nationals would not take them (at least not at lower wages). To suggest that lack of skills precluded anyone from getting work in Ireland during the boom would involve a high degree of amnesia of every time a Chinese barmaid got your order wrong.

Many non-gypsy Romanians and Bulgarians who came to Ireland were highly educated. However, many others (and I'm sure many will have met them) were not, yet they found employment.

If the gypsies don't have these skills and education, then they can hardly be compared to the highly educated non-gypsy workers.

I do have to ask if it is appropriate for someone with no education, skills or means of supporting themselves to move to another country and expect to continue a parasitic lifestyle?

Sir Oxman

What is the explanation for approx 3,000 Roma living in Ireland if, as the Roma Support Group site says, 90% of them are from Romania and there are restrictions on Romanians getting work permits in Ireland as posted earlier?
As Gar965 posted what process is in place in Ireland to stop the 3month-gone 1 day-back again scam from happening (that applies to all not just Roma)?

Maybe some have claimed asylum, although I believe Ireland has declared Romania a 'safe' country in regards to that.

I agree with the poster who pointed out that it's the anti-social culture that this country does not need more of and that is what pisses off people.

Nodin

Alopex wrote: »

you need a job to get stamps. you know many of them in employment?.

As this all stems off one mans anecdote, we don't in fact know if the persons in question actually get benefits, let alone on what basis.

beagle001 wrote:

Here we go again ,sighh ?.

Yes, here we go again, refusing to take anecdote and opinion as fact.

CorkMan

@MadsL

In your post you said after the USSR dissolved their were over 100,000 Roma without nationalities? I wonder how Joseph Stalin dealt with them 40/50 years previous?

BTW, IMO Ireland should adapt Nicolas Sarkozy's policies. No if's, and's, but's or maybe's.

The Corinthian

gambiaman wrote: »

I agree with the poster who pointed out that it's the anti-social culture that this country does not need more of and that is what pisses off people.

Anti-social culture or education or whatever you'd like to call it. Unfortunately, it is gypsies themselves who are most resistant to change; a friend of mine, a barrister, used to do asylum cases for them, before Romania's entry to the EU, and used to plead with them to put their children in school as it would improve their cases. They would do so for a day or two, then take them out again so they could beg.

So doing the céad míle fáilte bit or changing the attitudes that have developed in the last two decades aren't going to change that. Only changing that anti-social culture will solve this and unfortunately that is unlikely to sit well with the politically correct of our society.

Such cultures, be they domestic or foreign, are malignant. There's nothing noble about them. And frankly eradicating such cultures and enabling integration is going to do far more good for those trapped in them than any amount of Irish Times bleeding-heartology.

cavedave

The Corinthian

Such cultures, be they domestic or foreign, are malignant. There's nothing noble about them. And frankly eradicating such cultures and enabling integration is going to do far more good for those trapped in them than any amount of Irish Times bleeding-heartology.

What cultures do you mean? Is it nomadic cultures like the Irish travellers, Sami, Bedouin, Selk'nam that you mean. Or just ones with some other set of characteristics you don't like such as not sending their children to school?

The Corinthian

cavedave wrote: »

What cultures do you mean? Is it nomadic cultures like the Irish travellers, Sami, Bedouin, Selk'nam that you mean. Or just ones with some other set of characteristics you don't like such as not sending their children to school?

Any culture or sub-culture who's principle modus operandai is via anti-social and/or parasitic means. If such means become central to the culture or sub-culture, then it is ultimately malignant.

I was quite clear earlier on this if you would like to read back.

MadsL

I've just read througn this thread and some of the comments are just jaw-dropping. I was quite tempted to start a thread just using phrases from this thread to describe any other ethinic group. Let's try;

when it comes to the Jews they really, really piss me off. what do these people offer to ireland? they offer little to nothing to Ireland.
Loads of foreigners I know actually couldn't understand why we left so many of them in. it's just a joke really letting virtually anyone in.
One thing the Jew folk do NOT like,is having their photo taken
We are not obliged to import, sustain or try resolve, insoluble cultures that are criminally inclined.
Anybody familiar with the Jew hovel in gardiner street will probably wonder how the hell they get away with it,the house is being used as a brothel and a counting house for money and stolen property..they go forth like vermin 24 hours a day and nothing is being done about it.
The Jews aren't a race, they are a self-populating East-European criminal gang
But of course this discrimination isn't counted when the white person is the victim!
its true that Jews here are involved in criminal activity (not all of them - but I would suggest quite a lot). the genuine people dispise all the Jews and for good reason,they are not the only crowd hassleing in ireland. they are training their young ones in the art of thiefing; (they are) pathogens that have infected our system. best we can do is be vigilant around them eliminating a problem that they never wanted in the first place
about time we did something about it, humanely, of course
more Jews and their cronies milking the system and abusing our laws
I wonder how Joseph Stalin dealt with them 40/50 years previous?
There's nothing noble about them, eradicating such cultures and enabling integration is going to do far more good

So basically what you get is a good old fashioned call for a pogrom. Nothing new under the sun eh?

Well done everyone, proud to be in Ireland at the moment. :rolleyes:

Alopex

Nodin wrote: »

As this all stems off one mans anecdote, we don't in fact know if the persons in question actually get benefits, let alone on what basis.

don't see why they wouldn't. once they're here two years they should be able to claim jobseekers allowance. prob child benefits too. and they have a seemingly endless supply of babies

AlekSmart

beagle001 wrote: »

Here we go again ,sighh will you pull me a report to prove otherwise.
I give up not geting involved in this thread its depressing the same old nay sayers.

Thats a bit OTT Beagle001.

It is after all a Discussion forum and thus far what we have is moderated discussion,yes ?

Some contributors hold directly opposing views,whilst others regard it as their duty to convert the opposite thinkers to the way of rightuous thought.

For many,perceiving themselves as crusaders against Racism,Sexism,Ageism,Xenophibia, or whatever becomes their guiding mantra.

Have your say,listen to the opposing views and retain or alter your views accordingly.

The Power of Reason,as the Green Cathecism called it ?

charlemont

PCPhoto wrote: »

I have said it plenty of times on this and other forums.

We are broke as a nation, people who enter this state should obide by the rules of this state, if they fail to do so they should be punished - if they are an Irish citizen they should be jailed, if they are not an Irish Citizen they should be sent back to the country of origin, I don't care if they are Polish, German or Japanese.


We cannot afford to pander to the needs of an ethnic minority !!
- have a look at the likes of Pamela Isezbekhai, lying and eventually admitting to lying before a court....then taking the matter to European Courts of Law so she could stay here after a legal battle of 5years, other nations see this state as a soft touch and easy place to relocate.

its true that Roma here are involved in criminal activity (not all of them - but I would suggest quite a lot).

Thats a great idea and while we're at it, Other nations such as Britain, U.S. and Australia can kick out their foreign born people too.. You can guess what that would lead to...

Kivaro

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, here we go again, refusing to take anecdote and opinion as fact.

So how many anecdotes does it take to make it fact?
1,000?
10,000?
100,000 or doesn't it matter because they are just personal experiences and cannot be substantially proven beyond a unreasonable doubt (to some)?

These 'anecdotes' about the behavior of Roma gypsies are repeated ad nauseam by people not only in different counties, but in different countries. It may be mass hysteria, but I doubt it based on my own personal experiences with them (in Barcelona, Rome, Dublin, Cork, Small Town Ireland etc.).

Now with all that said, we must be VERY careful on how we react to this anti-social lifestyle, because as history teaches us, over-reaction can be devastating. In my opinion, legislation should be enacted that if a crime is committed by any foreign national and the probation service cannot find evidence of that individual contributing to society, then they should be deported after serving the sentence, to their country of origin. Yes, a country of origin can be found.

yammycat

Roma cost us next to nothing, anti-roma sentiment is just thinly disguised racism posing as concern for these 'costs', seriously, compare the cost of the roma to the cost of the bankers. They aren't white and they wear funny clothes and they don't talk English, thats what it's really about. As for begging sure isn't that what Enda has been doing in Europe, though he wears a nice suit and smiles so it's OK.

Nodin

Kivaro wrote: »

So how many anecdotes does it take to make it fact?
1,000?
...........

It would be better to discuss Roma and related issues and problems without of the "A" word at all. We know theres a high crime rate, we know theres a dysfunctional culture there, we also know theres endemic institutional discrimination.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

I've just read througn this thread and some of the comments are just jaw-dropping. I was quite tempted to start a thread just using phrases from this thread to describe any other ethinic group. Let's try;



So basically what you get is a good old fashioned call for a pogrom. Nothing new under the sun eh?

Well done everyone, proud to be in Ireland at the moment. :rolleyes:

Hang on here a sec. You've basically taken one inflammatory post and labelled the entire thread as calling for a pogrom.

In effect your commiting the same error as those your criticising and tarring everyone with the same brush.

There are other posters on the thread who have raised valid points and done so in a civil manner unlike the post you quoted. No need to dismiss the whole thread based on that one post.

Kivaro

MadsL wrote: »

I've just read througn this thread and some of the comments are just jaw-dropping. I was quite tempted to start a thread just using phrases from this thread to describe any other ethinic group. Let's try;



So basically what you get is a good old fashioned call for a pogrom. Nothing new under the sun eh?

Well done everyone, proud to be in Ireland at the moment. :rolleyes:

Everyone? That was one post from one poster.
That type of rhetoric is not helpful in a mature discussion.

MadsL

Everyone? That was one post from one poster.
That type of rhetoric is not helpful in a mature discussion.

Actually it was quotes from over 20 posts. Read the thread again.

when it comes to the Jews they really, really piss me off. what do these people offer to ireland? they offer little to nothing to Ireland.
Loads of foreigners I know actually couldn't understand why we left so many of them in. it's just a joke really letting virtually anyone in.
One thing the Jew folk do NOT like,is having their photo taken
We are not obliged to import, sustain or try resolve, insoluble cultures that are criminally inclined.
Anybody familiar with the Jew hovel in gardiner street will probably wonder how the hell they get away with it,the house is being used as a brothel and a counting house for money and stolen property..they go forth like vermin 24 hours a day and nothing is being done about it.
The Jews aren't a race, they are a self-populating East-European criminal gang
But of course this discrimination isn't counted when the white person is the victim!
its true that Jews here are involved in criminal activity (not all of them - but I would suggest quite a lot). the genuine people dispise all the Jews and for good reason,they are not the only crowd hassleing in ireland. they are training their young ones in the art of thiefing; (they are) pathogens that have infected our system. best we can do is be vigilant around them eliminating a problem that they never wanted in the first place
about time we did something about it, humanely, of course
more Jews and their cronies milking the system and abusing our laws
I wonder how Joseph Stalin dealt with them 40/50 years previous?
There's nothing noble about them, eradicating such cultures and enabling integration is going to do far more good

If you look back over the thread you will see that these phrases have ben taken from multiple posts in this thread - I replaced Roma with Jews and made it into one post for effect. What's posted above would not be out of place in 30's Germany. That's the point I'm making, so pablomakaveli I'm not just taking one post and extrapolating to the whole thread. I'm taking the cumulative effect of the thread to its logical outcome.

Now you could argue that the drip-drip of incidents involving Roma leads to this type of polemic. The point I'm making is that no-one today would dare to make these kind of statements about Jews, yet it still seems somehow acceptable to make them about Roma, despite a genocide of 500,000 of them? If the Holocaust meant that Germany passed race-hate legislation and many countries of the world have now followed suit, the fact The Indo printing are this in the first place means that somehow in Ireland it is acceptable to speak about the Roma as an ethnic group in these terms. Or is there a get out clause in our hate-crime legislation?

"The Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act 1989" makes it an offense to incite hatred against any group of persons on account of their race, color, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, ethnic or national origins, or membership of the Traveller community, an indigenous minority group."

However, if you object to me picking out your phrases above and twisting them, please note that I'm doing this as a general comment rather than singling out individuals, I'm trying to have a mature debate.

I missed out the Corinthian, as he was trying to discuss this in a sociological terms rather than emotive responses, but in case he feels left out, I'll translate for you;

Any culture or sub-culture who's principle modus operandai is via anti-social and/or parasitic means.

= Roma are antisocial parasites. Doesn't sound so good when you drop the fancy words Strangely, he still seems to favor the use of the word non-national, ironically he just happens to have picked an ethnic group where that is sometimes an accurate description.

MadsL

Incidentally this today;
http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/more-people-driven-out-by-racists-2842706.html

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

Well done everyone, proud to be in Ireland at the moment. :rolleyes:

And yet you still said this. As if to imply we're all racists. Which is frankly something im sick of hearing as it seems to be said a lot across this site.

Secondly while the over the top statements like the ones you quoted above aren't welcome that shouldn't stop constructive criticism, in this case criticism of behaviour of some of the Roma in this country. Criticism is not incitement to hatred.

The Corinthian

MadsL wrote: »

= Roma are antisocial parasites. Doesn't sound so good when you drop the fancy words

Actually, I didn't say that, but obviously my fancy words are too complicated for you.

I shall attempt to be simpler for you: people raised (indeed trapped) in a culture or sub-culture than promotes anti-social or parasitic lifestyles will tend to fall into anti-social or parasitic lifestyles themselves.

This does not make the people bad, but the culture that shapes them. Change the culture and ultimately you change the people, regardless of their nationality, creed, race or whatever.

In short, a correct translation would be "Roma culture presently engenders an anti-social or parasitic lifestyle". To what extent Roma culture does this (is it only small aspects, endemic or somewhere in-between) is open to debate, but to deny that this is what is happening would represent a surreal level of denial.

Strangely, he still seems to favor the use of the word non-national, ironically he just happens to have picked an ethnic group where that is sometimes an accurate description.

I've actually done my best not to favour the word non-national and have repeatedly pointed to other anti-social (sub-)cultures that are domestic. What you've accused me of is a blatant falsehood.

Either you've not actually read what I wrote or you are cherry-picking in the hope to turn this discussion into one on racism (something else I rejected from the onset). If it is the latter, then you're actually guilty of some pretty serious dishonesty in this debate.

You've even gone so far as to suggest that any criticism of the Roma or their culture is incitement to hatred. Sacred cow?

Indeed, I'll have to admit to some grim amusement at the irony of some here who have both accused others of call to emotion arguments, while clearly doing exactly the same when bandying the racist card.

raindog.promo

Kivaro wrote: »

I still have a stake in the country with one parent, multiple siblings and many friends regaling me with stories about Roma gypsies mugging the vulnerable, while at the same time enjoying the benefits of free housing and all the other goodies that the Irish taxpayer endow on them.

"Thou shalt not mooch on thy neighbours racket"

MadsL

As if to imply we're all racists. Which is frankly something im sick of hearing as it seems to be said a lot across this site.

Well if you post stuff like this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73717459&postcount=17

Seiously though..

while the over the top statements like the ones you quoted above aren't welcome

Hmm well, casual racism is something frowned upon on the Politics forum - yet this thread is full of the most odious statements from multiple posters. Now the OP asked "isn't about time that the matter was debated without the usual name-throwing" and the debate I see is the question of why it is acceptable to throw around these type of comments. So, let's debate. Why is it ok to say why I posted about Roma but not any other ethnic group?

As to your question as you posed about "criticism of behaviour of some of the Roma in this country. Criticism is not incitement to hatred."

The OP quoted a newspaper article I'd say met the requirements of incitement.

incitement - an act of urging on or spurring on or rousing to action or instigating; "the incitement of mutiny"
incitation
arousal, rousing - the act of arousing; "the purpose of art is the arousal of emotions"

MadsL

Corinthian I was being tongue-in-cheek with you. Hence the wink. Forgive the simplification for comic effect.

However you used the phrase non-national in reference to Romanians and Bulgarians if you read back - I wonder why, are they not Romanians and Bulgarians perhaps, that being their nationality rather than them being stateless?

You also said:

their culture, not race or nationality, is malignant in civilized society

Malignant implies something requiring excision - is that what you are proposing? Explain...

In short, a correct translation would be "Roma culture presently engenders an anti-social or parasitic lifestyle". To what extent Roma culture does this (is it only small aspects, endemic or somewhere in-between) is open to debate, but to deny that this is what is happening would represent a surreal level of denial.

I'm not in denial, quite the opposite; read my first post. However, are there any laws missing from our society which mean that we need to change national law to deal with this specific culture? If yes, why? Why can this not be dealt with under our existing laws of society?

any criticism of the Roma or their culture is incitement to hatred. Sacred cow?

Where did I say that. I believe the Indo article is however unlawful.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

Hmm well, casual racism is something frowned upon on the Politics forum - yet this thread is full of the most odious statements from multiple posters. Now the OP asked "isn't about time that the matter was debated without the usual name-throwing" and the debate I see is the question of why it is acceptable to throw around these type of comments. So, let's debate. Why is it ok to say why I posted about Roma but not any other ethnic group?

No ones saying those comments are acceptable. You seem to be more determined to prove a racist motive in discussing the Roma rather than discussing the problems within that community which is what this thread is about. If you feel a post is racist, report it and let the mods decide if it is.

As to your question as you posed about "criticism of behaviour of some of the Roma in this country. Criticism is not incitement to hatred."

The OP quoted a newspaper article I'd say met the requirements of incitement.

You'll have to take that up with the author of the article. But on reading it i dont see him enoucraging readers to go out and attack Roma based on their ethnicity which would be incitement to hatred, rather critism of their behaviour which couldnt be classed as incitement.

opo

MadsL wrote: »

What's posted above would not be out of place in 30's Germany. That's the point I'm making, so pablomakaveli I'm not just taking one post and extrapolating to the whole thread. I'm taking the cumulative effect of the thread to its logical outcome.

Where? The International Criminal Court where charges of genocide can be properly made against those posting here :rolleyes:

You are twisting and turning in a desperate attempt to imply and insist on racism everywhere.

If you cannot see there is a significant cultural component to the topic being discussed, then you are the one who is obsessed with race and more than a little bit sad (and dated) with your pathetic, 30's Germany slant.

The Corinthian

MadsL wrote: »

However you used the phrase non-national in reference to Romanians and Bulgarians if you read back - I wonder why, are they not Romanians and Bulgarians perhaps, that being their nationality rather than them being stateless?

Where on Earth did you get that? I actually only used the term non-national once in direct response to a question about non-nationals (i.e. non-Irish nationals) and was pointing out that the legal status of gypsies is identical to their non-gypsy compatriots. There was no implication of statelessness.

Malignant implies something requiring excision - is that what you are proposing? Explain...

I've not proposed any specific course of action. To do that would require more detailed study - as I said earlier, while I can point to a culture as being malignant, I cannot say whether it is only part of this culture or endemic throughout it. So first of all one would have to identify what is the malignant component or components to the culture, before recommending a course designed to specifically eliminate it.

I'm not in denial, quite the opposite; read my first post. However, are there any laws missing from our society which mean that we need to change national law to deal with this specific culture? If yes, why? Why can this not be dealt with under our existing laws of society?

As I said earlier, even if there are laws, their enforcement would be another thing. In fact, there are laws that deal with vagrancy, theft, child neglect or exploitation, but the Gardai have never been very good at enforcing anything that didn't involve a tax disc. Even if they did, such laws would lead to a ridiculous number of incarcerations, which our prison system cannot presently support.

Social laws that encourage, or frankly coerce, integration and a basic adherence to societal norms are what would be called for. However, I can't see them being passed, not because of the EU or even politically correct bleeding hearts, but because such social laws would also force many anti-social and parasitic Irish sub-cultures into the same basic adherence to societal norms - and those anti-social and parasitic Irish sub-cultures have both effective lobby groups and votes.

Where did I say that. I believe the Indo article is however unlawful.

You've clearly implied it by resorting to the racist card, apparently for all criticism here. Or did you accept any criticism of the Romani or their culture that I may have missed?

MadsL

@the Corinthian

non-nationals (i.e. non-Irish nationals)

Exactly my point, non-Irish nationals are not non-nationals (ie stateless) they are foreign-nationals (ie not Irish) forgive me - a bugbear of mine.

I've not proposed any specific course of action. To do that would require more detailed study - as I said earlier, while I can point to a culture as being malignant, I cannot say whether it is only part of this culture or endemic throughout it. So first of all one would have to identify what is the malignant component or components to the culture, before recommending a course designed to specifically eliminate it.

Interesting, what gives one culture a right to study and 'eliminate' the other culture? Would you make the same statement say about Jewish culture and 'eliminating' Zionism for example. Can you see the thin end of the wedge?
Based on your observations so far, how would you recommend proceeding?

Social laws that encourage, or frankly coerce, integration and a basic adherence to societal norms are what would be called for. However, I can't see them being passed, not because of the EU or even politically correct bleeding hearts, but because such social laws would also force many anti-social and parasitic Irish sub-cultures into the same basic adherence to societal norms - and those anti-social and parasitic Irish sub-cultures have both effective lobby groups and votes.

I'm guessing (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are alluding to Travellers or do you have other sub-cultures in mind?

How do you force integration? Specifically.

"Where did I say that. I believe the Indo article is however unlawful."

You've clearly implied it by resorting to the racist card, apparently for all criticism here. Or did you accept any criticism of the Romani or their culture that I may have missed?

I haven't called anyone a racist, I merely transposed their comments from one ethnic group to another for effect. An interesting effect don't you think?

@opo

Where? The International Criminal Court where charges of genocide can be properly made against those posting here

You are twisting and turning in a desperate attempt to imply and insist on racism everywhere.

I've admitted I've twisted words for effect, but I'm not "insisting there is racism everywhere" - I'm asking a deadly serious question - why is it acceptable in a national newspaper to write this type of "kick em all out" guff that attempts to escape a charge of racism by making the excuse that the East Europeans and Arabs are just as racist: "lest one make the glib charge of racism, you should hear what the East Europeans and Arabs living in the area think of this delinquent behaviour."

If you cannot see there is a significant cultural component to the topic being discussed, then you are the one who is obsessed with race and more than a little bit sad (and dated) with your pathetic, 30's Germany slant

.

I'm the one making the cultural references, or did you miss my post about 'civilised' society's response to Romani culture over the centuries.

If I attacked a piece of anti-semitic nonsense printed in a newspaper, would I still be the one with a pathetic, 30's Germany slant?

After a genocide of some 12 million Jews, Russians, Poles, Slovenes, Disabled, Homosexuals and others there seems to be little recognition that it might be a sensitive thing to call for a 'solution' for an ethnic group that had 200k to 1.5 million of its members exterminated.

With that history I find it fascinating that there is absolutely no shame in writing an article calling for "have the Roma booted out " en masse.

pablomakaveli

MadsL wrote: »

Interesting, what gives one culture a right to study and 'eliminate' the other culture? Would you make the same statement say about Jewish culture and 'eliminating' Zionism for example.

Cultures evolve and change all the time. Changing negative parts of a culture isn't exactly a bad thing nor is it something new. If a parts of a culture cause great problems for society as a whole then it may need to be changed.

MadsL

Changing negative parts of a culture isn't exactly a bad thing nor is it something new. If a parts of a culture cause great problems for society as a whole then it may need to be changed.

And that really is the crux of it. That is not what is being called for by the article, the change called for is the wholesale "booting out" of an entire ethnic group - 'location change', not the encouragement to change a cultural norm.