M17/M18 scheme: should it be built?

Sponge Bob

I see Noel Grealish is the new Frank Fahey promising roads 'next year' Frankeen style. It is about the height of what i would expect from Grealish. Keaveney, meanwhilem is the new Grealish.

Labour Deputy Colm Keaveney is confident that the government will support proceeding with the Tuam Bypass should the M17 PPP fail to materialise.

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has also indicated his support for the proposal in the Dáil but stressed that the government intended to pursue the PPP for as long as possible.

It would cost around €30m TOTAL to bypass Tuam AND Claregalway both, most or all of the land for Tuam is bought. Neither can be tolled any more than Enfield was or Kinnegad.

They are the 2 worst bottlenecks between Derry and Limerick as well as a clear and present danger to Roscommon people trying to get to their new A&E on the 'wrong side' of Galway.

Were both those bypasses built I could live with no M17 or a completed M18 as long as they bypassed Clarinbridge some time in the next 5 years....which latter project won't happen for the exact same reason they never drained the Dunkellin since they originally promised to around 1950.

You could even build the Tuam bypass as a single carriageway and mainly with at grade junctions and come back to widening and separating it in future. As it was to be 2+2 you can build the 'middle' 2 lanes first and the rest later.

invinciblePRSTV

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It would cost around €30m TOTAL to bypass Tuam AND Claregalway both, most or all of the land for Tuam is bought. Neither can be tolled any more than Enfield was or Kinnegad.

They are the 2 worst bottlenecks between Derry and Limerick as well as a clear and present danger to Roscommon people trying to get to their new A&E on the 'wrong side' of Galway.

Were both those bypasses built I could live with no M17 or a completed M18 as long as they bypassed Clarinbridge some time in the next 5 years....which latter project won't happen for the exact same reason they never drained the Dunkellin since they originally promised to around 1950.

You could even build the Tuam bypass as a single carriageway and mainly with at grade junctions and come back to widening and separating it in future. As it was to be 2+2 you can build the 'middle' 2 lanes first and the rest later.

Far too much sense been spoken here, why would we build functional low cost bypasses of several bottlenecks when we can engage in crayonism and have a whopping great big blue line running down the sparsely populated west coast (and south east) costing a fortune.

This is Ireland, yet we're building roads like we're in Germany:rolleyes:.

antoobrien

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Far too much sense been spoken here, why would we build functional low cost bypasses of several bottlenecks when we can engage in crayonism and have a whopping great big blue line running down the sparsely populated west coast (and south east) costing a fortune.

Why is it every time we try to futureproof things this drivel comes up? It's this kind of negative thinking & or nimbyism that has left us with a p*ss poor transport system. this project and GCOB seem to get a lot of flack from people who don't have a bloody clue about Galway or have a vested interest is seeing something like this not delivered (anybody with an interest or obsession with PT).

veryangryman

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

This is Ireland, yet we're building roads like we're in Germany:rolleyes:.

Germanys quality road system is one of the main reasons why its a world leader of efficiency. We should focus on getting our infrastructural standards to this level - why not?

"This is Ireland". Elaborate please. Some of us dont have the inferiority complex that you are displaying with that post.

invinciblePRSTV

antoobrien wrote: »

Why is it every time we try to futureproof things this drivel comes up? It's this kind of negative thinking & or nimbyism that has left us with a p*ss poor transport system. this project and GCOB seem to get a lot of flack from people who don't have a bloody clue about Galway or have a vested interest is seeing something like this not delivered (anybody with an interest or obsession with PT).

Drivel my hole. The only drivel here is people who seem to think that it's entirely appropriate for every two bit town bottleneck to get a full blown 50km motorway project where modest bypasses of minor towns will do the job instead for a fraction of the cost.

"futureproof" is the most overused and ill thought out phrase on this forum and is used to justify every white elephant motorway project out there. Let's call a spade a spade here and acknowledge that outside the current bottlenecks there isn't much in the way of AADTs to justify prioritising this project ahead of many others around the country with similar AADTs.

veryangryman wrote: »

Germanys quality road system is one of the main reasons why its a world leader of efficiency. We should focus on getting our infrastructural standards to this level - why not?

Fine, lets start aping Germany fully. Let's adopt their stringent planning laws and prevent the M17/18 from becoming what it is going to become, a white elephant commuter motorway which will only be busy at morning and evening rush hour when the Wesht's massively dispersed rural population begin their long distance commute to work by car.

veryangryman wrote: »

"This is Ireland". Elaborate please. Some of us dont have the inferiority complex that you are displaying with that post.

Not worthy of a reply. Both you and antoobrien need to brush up on your manners.

Sponge Bob

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Drivel my hole. The only drivel here is people who seem to think that it's entirely appropriate for every two bit town bottleneck to get a full blown 50km motorway project where modest bypasses of minor towns will do the job instead for a fraction of the cost.

Nobody around here advocates that. We do, however,advocate a high quailty road link between most of our principal cities that does not go via the bloody M50.

The missing link between Arklow and Dublin carries a volume of traffic that justifies a HQDC. It cannot be improved or kicked to touch with one of your bypasses and anyway we bought the land already.

In the case of Tuam - Galway a considerable improvement can be made with 2 bypasses, one the nothernmost section of the motorway project as a standalone and another that is needed WHETHER we build the motorway or not.

The GCOB can then go ahead as a HQDC ....again because there is realistically no way out of or around that and then we can revisit the missing motorway again when we have the funds. We have closed or are busy closing every decent hospital in the West save the one on the west bank of the Corrib in Galway.

But be in no doubt that we do need a motorway from Tuam to Cork ...but luckily some of the worst bottlenecks..Newmarket/Limerick/Gort and Ennis are sorted.

invinciblePRSTV

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nobody around here advocates that. We do, however,advocate a high quailty road link between most of our principal cities that does not go via the bloody M50.

We have one, It's called the M8-M7-M50-M1 :pac:. I'm not disagreeing that improvements are needed but i believe that in times of limited funding only critical works at bottlenecks, such as solitary bypasses of places like Tuam, Claregalway, Buttevant, Charleville, Tralee, Macroom etc should be prioritised rather then grandiose schemes planned during the bubble era which involve dozens of KMs of DC being built in rural Ireland replacing roads which can adequately handle the traffic which uses it.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The missing link between Arklow and Dublin carries a volume of traffic that justifies a HQDC. It cannot be improved or kicked to touch with one of your bypasses and anyway we bought the land already.

I'm referring to the Oylgate Scheme when i mentioned the SE.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

In the case of Tuam - Galway a considerable improvement can be made with 2 bypasses, one the nothernmost section of the motorway project as a standalone and another that is needed WHETHER we build the motorway or not.

The GCOB can then go ahead as a HQDC ....again because there is realistically no way out of or around that and then we can revisit the missing motorway again when we have the funds. We have closed or are busy closing every decent hospital in the West save the one on the west bank of the Corrib in Galway.

Again i agree. I'm not saying don't build anything, instead i say build whats urgently required in the form of bypasses for the towns listed above and leave the plans for a full blown motorway called the Atlantic Corridor on the drawing board for when the money is there for it and more pressing transport projects have been funded.

Sponge Bob

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

We have one, It's called the M8-M7-M50-M1 :pac:. I'm not disagreeing that improvements are needed but i believe that in times of limited funding only critical works at bottlenecks, such as solitary bypasses of places like Tuam, Claregalway, Buttevant, Charleville, Tralee, Macroom etc should be prioritised rather then grandiose schemes planned during the bubble era which involve dozens of KMs of DC being built in rural Ireland replacing roads which can adequately handle the traffic which uses it.

Charleville need parking enforcement not a bypass. Buttevant,much like Tuam, can only really be sorted by building a section of the M20...possibly in a bundle with a Macroom bypass N22.

Otherwise or together bundle with a northern M20 stub including the Adare bypass N21.

I'm referring to the Oylgate Scheme when i mentioned the SE.

I think the M11 should end north of Enniscorthy with nothing bar 2+2 from there to Rosslare ( if even that) . Here is why but it is a bit marginal for S2 with a fair bit of goods traffic.

So yeah, rather than shout at everyone perhaps extract 2+2 / s2 or even short M grade schemes that would make a large difference in a region like Cork and bundle them.

Then prioritise these bundles nationally. We will prioritise nothing by grandstanding and ad hominememating

highlydebased

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

then grandiose schemes planned during the bubble era which involve dozens of KMs of DC being built in rural Ireland replacing roads which can adequately handle the traffic which uses it.


d.

Couldn't disagree more. So do you think the current N20 or N18 (post gort) is adequate? Far from it

KevR

Solitary bypasses for towns/villages on the N18 between Oranmore and Gort will not be acceptable.

Good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent meaning slow drivers cause havoc. Journey times are unacceptable considering this is road the road that links our 3rd and 4th cities.

Even if the N18 isn't full to capacity, the M18 is still essential. Journey times need to be excellent and fully predictable/reliable between two key economic hubs (and Shannon Airport).

invinciblePRSTV

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Charleville need parking enforcement not a bypass. Buttevant,much like Tuam, can only really be sorted by building a section of the M20...possibly in a bundle with a Macroom bypass N22.

Otherwise or together bundle with a northern M20 stub including the Adare bypass N21.

The bundling of bypasses together is a good shout, it's certainly a far more fair and cost effective solution for a nation state such as ours given the fiscal situation, it's not feasible to put important bypasses on the long finger to build a predominantly rural scheme such as the M17/18.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I think the M11 should end north of Enniscorthy with nothing bar 2+2 from there to Rosslare ( if even that) . Here is why but it is a bit marginal for S2 with a fair bit of goods traffic.

So yeah, rather than shout at everyone perhaps extract 2+2 / s2 or even short M grade schemes that would make a large difference in a region like Cork and bundle them.

Agreed.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Then prioritise these bundles nationally. We will prioritise nothing by grandstanding and ad hominememating

Indeed, Hopefully veryangryman & antoobrien will be less emotional and use their heads when posting in future.

highlydebased wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more. So do you think the current N20 or N18 (post gort) is adequate? Far from it

Clearly I didn't say such a thing.

KevR wrote: »

Solitary bypasses for towns/villages on the N18 between Oranmore and Gort will not be acceptable.

Not acceptable to whom? why should the wesht get a luxury project like the M17/18 whilst there is no money elsewhere for simple bypasses of equal/greater importance?

KevR wrote: »

Good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent meaning slow drivers cause havoc. Journey times are unacceptable considering this is road the road that links our 3rd and 4th cities.

What about the road that links our 2nd and 3rd cities? or 2nd and 4th? or 3rd and 5th? why should the M17/18 get priority? My solution and the one argued by spongebob is far more equitable and is appropriate seeing as the money just isn't there.

KevR wrote: »

Even if the N18 isn't full to capacity, the M18 is still essential. Journey times need to be excellent and fully predictable/reliable between two key economic hubs (and Shannon Airport).

When the countries finances are restored to health then building huge projects like the M17/18 should be considered. until then lets focus on small scale projects with immediate benefits like bypasses of the towns I listed earlier.

dubhthach

Tbh both the M18 and M20 need to be built. Galway-Limerick-Cork is only viable nexus to counterweight Dublin from a point of economic development in this country. There's no reason why it should take longer then two hours to get from Cork to Galway

invinciblePRSTV

dubhthach wrote: »

Tbh both the M18 and M20 need to be built. Galway-Limerick-Cork is only viable nexus to counterweight Dublin from a point of economic development in this country. There's no reason why it should take longer then two hours to get from Cork to Galway

Yeah it's fine and indeed desirable to have the long term aim of having full motorway between Cork - Galway, indeed if the bubble hadn't burst then both the M20 & M18 would be underway by now probably.

But in the short to medium term, and given the fiscal reality, instead of putting all our proverbial eggs in one basket to build a predominantly rural 50km motorway project with low AADTS when resources are severely limited, it is more appropriate to allocate resources around the country for small projects like the aforementioned bypasses and projects like the N28 rather then concentrate huge resources in one area.

dubhthach

Well I'm not saying anything about the M17 section. The M18 from the M6 to where the M18 starts at Gort is 27.7km. The fact that it traverse a rural area for that distance is immaterial. It's purpose is to provide motorway connection between Galway City and Limerick City, as well as for traffic going/coming from Cork.

Google maps puts the distance between the Junction at Shannon and the end of the M18 in Gort is 42km, adding 27.7 km to Rathmorrisey and the 8km from there to Briarhill it should be possible to do the trip from Ballybrit to Shannon in under 45minutes. This isn't too much off the time it would take to get from Sandyford industrial estate to Dublin airport during middle of the day.

Given that this spanish company built the M6 of course they would be interested in building the M18 (and also M17) it makes their running of the M6 more profitable as it feeds more traffic onto the road.

spacetweek

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

But in the short to medium term, and given the fiscal reality, instead of putting all our proverbial eggs in one basket to build a predominantly rural 50km motorway project with low AADTS when resources are severely limited, it is more appropriate to allocate resources around the country for small projects like the aforementioned bypasses and projects like the N28 rather then concentrate huge resources in one area.

The money issue can be solved by tolling it, which is why tolling is be ing proposed. I find your lack of faith in future-proofing disturbing!

invinciblePRSTV

spacetweek wrote: »

The money issue can be solved by tolling it, which is why tolling is be ing proposed. I find your lack of faith in future-proofing disturbing!

I find your strong faith in the tolling mechanism equally disturbing! Methinks if there is a toll lopped onto the project around Gort then we'll have ourselves another M3/N25 situation with the state subsidising private operators.

As for future proofing, it's a good idea, but building a motorway to replace a road which in sections has AADTs as low as 4 digits isn't, particularly when low cost bypasses of bottlenecks will do the job just as well.

Too often roads fetishists will cite "future proofing" for any old mega-expensive project with dubious merit.

etchyed

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

...then we'll have ourselves another M3/N25 situation with the state subsidising private operators.

It's the M3 and the N18 Shannon Tunnel where this is happening.

I'm not aware of the N25 Suir Bridge (which I assume you're referring to) having this type of arrangement.

Anyway your point doesn't really make much sense, as after the two disasters above, the government would presumably only commence a tolled scheme if it was possible to do so without the minumum income guarantee made to the concessionaires on the M3 and Shannon Tunnel.

KevR

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Not acceptable to whom? why should the wesht get a luxury project like the M17/18 whilst there is no money elsewhere for simple bypasses of equal/greater importance?

Not acceptable to motorists. I don't see how anyone can find low average speeds and unpredictable journey times on an important inter-urban route acceptable.

Have actually never heard someone from the West say "Wesht". I think people write it on boards to make the West of Ireland sound rural and unimportant.

A proper road connection between two cities (economic hubs) and an international airport is not a 'luxury'. Ennis is also a pretty big town by Irish standards.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

What about the road that links our 2nd and 3rd cities? or 2nd and 4th? or 3rd and 5th? why should the M17/18 get priority? My solution and the one argued by spongebob is far more equitable and is appropriate seeing as the money just isn't there.

I don't think the M18 should be higher priority than the M20. A full motorway connection between Cork and Limerick is equally necessary.

dubhthach

KevR wrote: »

Have actually never heard someone from the West say "Wesht". I think people write it on boards to make the West of Ireland sound rural and unimportant.

I'll stick my hand up on saying it, though it's more as a joke (like "Tae and hang sandwiches") -- been from the west myself. "The wesht is the besht and forget the resht"

Linguistically it use to be a feature of hiberno-english accents in areas like the west (and elsewhere), it basically reflects "Slender s" in the irish language when beside a slenderising vowel (e or i). Then again Hiberno-English is quite diffeent now then it was 50 years ago let alone 100.

mayo23

etchyed wrote: »

It's the M3 and the N18 Shannon Tunnel where this is happening.

I'm not aware of the N25 Suir Bridge (which I assume you're referring to) having this type of arrangement.

I believe there's a similar arrangement on the M4 - the government have to give more money to the toll company if they reduce the tolls. Something like that.

invinciblePRSTV

KevR wrote: »

Not acceptable to motorists. I don't see how anyone can find low average speeds and unpredictable journey times on an important inter-urban route acceptable.

With bypasses of the affected area's then the worst bottlenecks will be eliminated with improved journey times as a result at a fraction of the cost.

KevR wrote: »

Have actually never heard someone from the West say "Wesht". I think people write it on boards to make the West of Ireland sound rural and unimportant.

It is rural and fairly unimportant;).

KevR wrote: »

A proper road connection between two cities (economic hubs) and an international airport is not a 'luxury'. Ennis is also a pretty big town by Irish standards.

Limerick and Galway are medium sized towns and Shannons a small airport, let's not go crazy here.

KevR wrote: »

I don't think the M18 should be higher priority than the M20. A full motorway connection between Cork and Limerick is equally necessary.

An M20, like an M18 is desirable but again like the latter project, several bypasses of a couple of towns along the route will do the job just as well.

etchyed wrote: »

Anyway your point doesn't really make much sense, as after the two disasters above, the government would presumably only commence a tolled scheme if it was possible to do so without the minumum income guarantee made to the concessionaires on the M3 and Shannon Tunnel.

Would the M17/18 project be considered viable without the prospect of the government guaranteeing minimum traffic levels along the project?

Let's look at the NRA AADTs at Gort where the project starts, over the course of a year it barely registers on average 10k a day. Assuming some of this traffic will not use a toll, that's a fairly small number of potential customers, I would be surprised in this climate that a consortium would construct this project without state guarantees on minimum traffic levels.

KevR

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

With bypasses of the affected area's then the worst bottlenecks will be eliminated with improved journey times as a result at a fraction of the cost.

There is also a need to address the very long strecthes in between towns. As I said, good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent and a small handful of slow drivers can delay absolutely everybody.

Your proposal will cost more in the long run.

My thinking would be to spend more now if it will cost us less in the long run.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It is rural and fairly unimportant;).

Limerick and Galway are medium sized towns and Shannons a small airport, let's not go crazy here.

We'll take it as a given that Dublin is imortant. So....what other areas of the country do you think are important and worthy of good roads?

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Galway and Limerick's contribution to the Irish economy.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

An M20, like an M18 is desirable but again like the latter project, several bypasses of a couple of towns along the route will do the job just as well.

How exactly?

A full motorway gaurentees an average speed of 120kmh for the full length of your journey between 2 cities.

Small bypasses will only speed up journey times around towns (to an absolute max. of 100kmh). Throw some slow drivers into the mix and you will be lucky to have an average speed of 80kmh for the entire journey.

Small bypasses with long sections of old road remaining in between will not improve safety. A motorway will greatly imrpove safety..

So small bypasses will not do the job just as well. Let's not pretend otherwise.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Would the M17/18 project be considered viable without the prospect of the government guaranteeing minimum traffic levels along the project?

Let's look at the NRA AADTs at Gort where the project starts, over the course of a year it barely registers on average 10k a day. Assuming some of this traffic will not use a toll, that's a fairly small number of potential customers, I would be surprised in this climate that a consortium would construct this project without state guarantees on minimum traffic levels.

That traffic counter is South of Gort. There is obviously extra commuter traffic North of Gort.

invinciblePRSTV

KevR wrote: »

There is also a need to address the very long strecthes in between towns. As I said, good overtaking opportunities are almost non-existent and a small handful of slow drivers can delay absolutely everybody.

Your proposal will cost more in the long run.

My thinking would be to spend more now if it will cost us less in the long run.

As I've repeatedly said that whilst it may be desirable to have full Mway spec on the route, right now with limited finances and plenty of other projects nationwide to fund then bypasses of the main towns will do do for now.

When/if the economy turns itself around then the state can resume it's large scale Mway construction projects.

KevR wrote: »

We'll take it as a given that Dublin is imortant. So....what other areas of the country do you think are important and worthy of good roads?

No one mentioned Dublin.............

KevR wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Galway and Limerick's contribution to the Irish economy.

And no one mentioned either area's contribution to the Irish economy either.....

KevR wrote: »

How exactly?

By removing the major bottlenecks along the route.

KevR wrote: »

Small bypasses will only speed up journey times around towns (to an absolute max. of 100kmh). Throw some slow drivers into the mix and you will be lucky to have an average speed of 80kmh for the entire journey.

Small bypasses with long sections of old road remaining in between will not improve safety. A motorway will greatly imrpove safety..

So small bypasses will not do the job just as well. Let's not pretend otherwise.

No one is saying that we can't ever build the M18/17, what I'm repeatesly saying is that the most important bits are the bypasses and these can be built first along with other important projects throughout the country. When the economic situation improves then the gaps can be filled in so to speak.

KevR wrote: »

That traffic counter is South of Gort. There is obviously extra commuter traffic North of Gort.

So? That's where the project begins, that's the level of traffic on this supposedly vital intercity route. Will all those extra commuters be willing to pay a daily toll? I doubt it. However you reconfirm my point which I made earlier that this project, if built, will be primarily utilised by a few thouand long distance commuters living in the one off housing land that is the Wesht.

CerebralCortex

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

As I've repeatedly said that whilst it may be desirable to have full Mway spec on the route, right now with limited finances and plenty of other projects nationwide to fund then bypasses of the main towns will do do for now.

When/if the economy turns itself around then the state can resume it's large scale Mway construction projects.




No one mentioned Dublin.............



And no one mentioned either area's contribution to the Irish economy either.....



By removing the major bottlenecks along the route.



No one is saying that we can't ever build the M18/17, what I'm repeatesly saying is that the most important bits are the bypasses and these can be built first along with other important projects throughout the country. When the economic situation improves then the gaps can be filled in so to speak.



So? That's where the project begins, that's the level of traffic on this supposedly vital intercity route. Will all those extra commuters be willing to pay a daily toll? I doubt it. However you reconfirm my point which I made earlier that this project, if built, will be primarily utilised by a few thouand long distance commuters living in the one off housing land that is the Wesht.

But you're getting marginal gain for huge cost, more often then not the hold ups on the N20 for me are slow drivers. The economies of scale don't add up for me. Bypasses are expensive and may take the best part of 10, 15 minutes of a journey on the N20 and I'm being generous. I could be in Cork within 50 minutes with motor way from Limerick.

Irish and Proud

Having visited 'Highways and Autobahns' on skyscrapercity.com, I don't think we as a country can afford to sit on our laurels looking at the progress in some Eastern European countries like Lithuania, Hungry and Bulgaria. Here are a couple of examples:

1) Bulgarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread;

2) Hungarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread.

Ireland has come a very long way, but still has a long way to go - if we don't continue to take road investment seriously enough, we will fall behind - simple as! We're well up there now in terms of motorways, but we need to get cracking on the AWC and the Galway Outer Bypass. We also need 2+2 roads (or at least 2+1) connecting Waterford to both Limerick and Cork as well as the N21 to Kerry. A motorway along the N4 from Mullingar to Longford town wouldn't go a miss either. The DOOR could wait as long as roads like the N51, N52 and N80 continue to receive steady investment. However, there needs to be a substantial programme for 2020 when all National Primary Routes are upgraded - whether they're ST1, DT3, DT2, DT1 or even Motorway standard. Substantial progress is also required on the National Secondary Routes.

Regards!

dubhthach

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Having visited 'Highways and Autobahns' on skyscrapercity.com, I don't think we as a country can afford to sit on our laurels looking at the progress in some Eastern European countries like Lithuania, Hungry and Bulgaria. Here are a couple of examples:

1) Bulgarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread;

2) Hungarian Motorway Map and the Related Thread.

Ireland has come a very long way, but still has a long way to go - if we don't continue to take road investment seriously enough, we will fall behind - simple as! We're well up there now in terms of motorways, but we need to get cracking on the AWC and the Galway Outer Bypass. We also need 2+2 roads (or at least 2+1) connecting Waterford to both Limerick and Cork as well as the N21 to Kerry. A motorway along the N4 from Mullingar to Longford town wouldn't go a miss either. The DOOR could wait as long as roads like the N51, N52 and N80 continue to receive steady investment. However, there needs to be a substantial programme for 2020 when all National Primary Routes are upgraded - whether they're ST1, DT3, DT2, DT1 or even Motorway standard. Substantial progress is also required on the National Secondary Routes.

Regards!

The reason why they can build such motorways is that they actually use the structural funds they get from EU membership to build them. In our case the money was passed around like "Snuff at a funeral" so as to curry as many votes as possible. When you think of Albert Reynolds coming back with £7 billion in 1992. The current motorway network would have probably had been built a lot cheaper if they fire ahead with construction in this period before the boom took off and drove land prices through the roof.

invinciblePRSTV

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But you're getting marginal gain for huge cost,

It's the opposite, building bypasses of the worst bottlenecks around the country will benefit more people rather then just a few thousand long distance commuters out wesht on the M17/18.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

more often then not the hold ups on the N20 for me are slow drivers.

Maybe you're an excessive speeder? It's fairly common on Irish roads, Remember 100km p/h isn't a target;), particularly on a road like the N20 between Mallow - Croom.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

The economies of scale don't add up for me.

The opportunity cost of building a predominantly rural motorway like the AC doesn't add up for me either when there are small scale road and public transport projects around the country with equal merit.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Bypasses are expensive and may take the best part of 10, 15 minutes of a journey on the N20 and I'm being generous.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I could be in Cork within 50 minutes with motor way from Limerick.

Yeah that's great and all but as I'm sure you'll know well, the AADTs on the N20 drop steeply to the low teens once you go past Mallow and don't really pick up again until you near the Limerick commuter towns. A couple of small, cheap bypasses of the the likes of Buttevant & Charleville will suffice for such low traffic numbers.

Chris_5339762

... leaving the section between Charleville and the Croom Bypass which people wont stop dieing on. The simple truth is the entire N20 needs doing.

spacetweek

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Having visited 'Highways and Autobahns' on skyscrapercity.com, I don't think we as a country can afford to sit on our laurels looking at the progress in some Eastern European countries like Lithuania, Hungry and Bulgaria.

I've read that thread and it seems like they're having lots of difficulties over there! The only Eastern European countries that have made significant progress are Czech, Slovenia and Croatia, which have essentially completed their networks. Scaling for population, the rest have not made anywhere near as much progress as we have. (And Lithuania does not have any bona fide motorways, despite evidence to the contrary. None of its roads that have been declared motorways are motorway spec.)

That said, some of them are beating us on secondary roads. We have a lot of progress to make in that respect.

yer man!

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's the opposite, building bypasses of the worst bottlenecks around the country will benefit more people rather then just a few thousand long distance commuters out wesht on the M17/18.

The biggest holdups on the current N17/N18 is the slow drivers on the long stretches where it's impossible to overtake. The road from kilcolgan to gort is a windy narrow road with a terrible road surface. There are thousands of commuters which would avail of a motorway to get into galway or down to limerick or up to/from tuam. Building several bypasses around towns would be useless and a very very long process to get planning and cpo approval. Also the bypasses wouldn't be tolled whereas the motorway could be tolled.

KevR

invinciblePRSTV: what do you think about the Tralee Bypass?

It's a solitary bypass of a town. It's not a rural motorway. The thing is, it's 19km long in total and it will cost €96m.

How much will the M17/18 cost?

It will bypass Tuam, Claregalway (two very big bottlenecks), Oranmore, Clarinbridge and Kilcolgan. Five towns/villages bypassed and it will provide a full motorway connection between Galway and Limerick (+ Shannon Airport and Ennis). It will also improve journey times between Galway and Cork.