City centre discussed on Newstalk this morning

boomerang

Anyone else catch the discussion this morning on Newstalk about the "donut effect" and slow death of the city centre in Limerick? Made for very sad listening. Listen back on the Newstalk website, Part II, 14 minutes in.

http://www.newstalk.ie/programmes/all/breakfast/listen-back/

QueensGael

I thought it gave a very good overview of how the city has gone to ruin because of poor, disjointed planning. I've been explaining the situation over the past few years to friends who don't know Limerick, and this had the facts and figures to back up my observations. (I lived there for 20 years, but I'm now in exile

In addition to the suburban big box stores, there were problems with Limerick city centre before this. A few off the top of my head:

• The retail units on Cruises Street were too small to retain large, multiple retail outlet. As soon as bigger units became available in the Crescent SC and near Claughaun, they hightailed out to the larger, more scalable units (Next, for instance)
• Arthurs Quay SC doesn't have any attractive stores in it; the upstairs retail units never attracted footfall, even from Sails Restaurant
• The loss of the cinema in the city centre was a big blow. No reason to go into town at night if you weren't going for a drink.

I'm saddened to hear that the area around Docs/The Granary has gone into such rack and ruin. There was a great vibe around that area back in the late 1990s.

So what can be done to fix this? Will the merged City and County Council put together an integrated plan for the city? Thought?

AnCapaillMor

Parkings alot to do with it as well, i'd go to the crescent as i wouldn't have to spend 15 minutes driing around looking for a non full car park and a further 10 mins driving around the multi storey fto find a space.

phill106

Well from seeing the desolation that is limerick on a daily basis, I expected the rest of the country to be the same. I was wrong!
I went to dublin a few weeks ago for a few days. Was buzzing, tourists EVERYWHERE and I don't think I saw a single closed shop.

I went to cork over the weekend (I don't go away often, i swear, just coincidence!) and again the city was very busy, even in the evening/night with people walking the streets, buskers doing their bit and stores open.

Compare that to the ghosttown that is limerick. I'd say send the limerick councillors to cork dublin and galway to see how cities are run, but they would use it as a junket and claim the lot on expenses

jonski

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Parkings alot to do with it as well, i'd go to the crescent as i wouldn't have to spend 15 minutes driing around looking for a non full car park and a further 10 mins driving around the multi storey fto find a space.

Same here , twice recently I needed to go into town for small things ( a birthday cake and a specific second hand book ) , quick run in and run back out items , but I couldn't find parking and having to go to a multi storey just isn't worth the hassle . The negative experience then just tends to put me off even thinking of town when I want something .

the drifter

How do you solve the parking issues though? You cant expect the multi stories to open for free. They have to make money as well. Even making on street parking free wont help on Saturdays as there isn't enough of it. I don't think there would be the take up to warrant a park and ride into the middle of the city.

To get the city centre back on its feet it needs a complete overhaul in both structure and marketing towards attracting retailers...this requires capital...which there is none of at the moment.

Also on rents...

This is a no win situation as well. The money to build these retail units was borrowed from banks and ridiculous rates.
Owners/ Developers of these units are now being called to repay this money. Reducing rents will not help there cause ( although my sympathy is lacking here)

Mr. TTime

I don't really get the parking argument - I was in Galway on a Saturday recently (where parking, driving issues are way worse than in Limerick) and the place was buzzing. Same can be said for Cork and Dublin (although public transport in Dublin is far superior than anywhere else in the country).

There are numerous issues which need to be addressed to bring people back into the city. Better shops with bigger names, Cruises St needs to be given a face-lift, night-time activities that don't revolve around pubs (seriously nothing to do in town after 7pm if you don't want to drink), empty the bins more frequently, promote the city-centre as a place to meet people and promote it locally (no point in attracting tourists to a place if the locals won't be there).

Most importantly - stop ignoring the river! You would never know that Limerick is founded on the biggest river in Ireland by walking down our main shopping streets. The council have been short-sighted about this for years and have always looked to inhibit visitors from seeing our biggest asset (whether intentionaly or not, it's still the same result). It'll take a long time for the city centre to create a similar vibe as can be found in Galway or Cork but we have to act now so that in the future we can be proud of our city and be proud to show it off to friends and tourists alike.

vkid

The big advantage Galway has are the streets are very narrow and only has a couple of main ones. It makes it feel a lot busier than it actually is. All Limericks Streets are very wide in comparison so it looks sparser. Thats not the full reason but it certainly helps make Galway look busy. Was up there last week as well and really noticed this. Was talking to a barber and 2 shop owners and they were saying despite what the media are saying Galway is pretty quiet this year relative to other years.

Poxyshamrock

I remember a former female Limerick mayor telling us at a meeting in The Strand Hotel how Limerick is thriving and with the redelevopment of William Street, Limerick will be even better.

She also said that for years Limerick turned its back on the river but in recent years the council have changed that. I asked her about the old ESB site and the old Dunnes as well as why all the river units bar Milanos on Harveys Quay are vacant and she ignored me. :rolleyes:

If I had been planning Harvey's Quay, I would have made sure Dunnes had an entrace onto the quays too.

kilburn

I don not get this parking crap that some people throw about. I have never not been able to get into a multi storey car park in Limerick because it was full. Thomas St car park and arthurs quay are never full and very central. You whinge and whine about the city falling down but yet you wont pay 1.80 to park and support the already struggling shops in the city.

Grumpypants

I was going to get some T-shirts for a holiday i had a choice between going to Heatons, or TK max and drive there in 10 mins park for free run into the shop and pop home in 10 mins, total time around 30 mins.

Or take 15 mins to get into town park up the top of O'Connell street, run to the shop pay 2euro for a disk, run back it in the car, walk down to the city centre. Pick up my T-shirt and walk all the way back and drive home for another 15 mins. OR mess around with a multi story car park which will cost me 1.80 even though i only need it for 10 mins.

Getting rid of half the Taxi ranks around the town and turning them into free 20-30 min pop in and out parking slots would make a huge difference to people who only want to jump in for one item and not to browse for hours.

Berty

Taxi ranks. LOL @ Taxi Demons

They have now decided, since the right hand lane has opened on William Street to park illegaly outside A-Wear prior to trying to get into the real Taxi lane on the left.

Parking in the city is easy and readily available UNLESS you try to park on the surface car park on Ellen Street. There is ALWAYS a queue for this because its only €1.50 per hour.

counterlock

kilburn wrote: »

I don not get this parking crap that some people throw about. I have never not been able to get into a multi storey car park in Limerick because it was full.

Yep, every time I've gone in, never had a problem. And I mean every single time.

I don't mind paying the few quid to park it up in the multistory, it always feels safer in there anyway.

kilburn

free parking on the streets in Limerick or in any other city would never work as the lazy fookers who work in town will just take them.

On the other hand the multi storeys could offer special rates to encourage people in at weekends.

why have 200 spaces full at 1.80 an hour when you could have 600 full at 50c an hour, less revenue yea but word of mouth and good rep is golden

Grumpypants

kilburn wrote: »

free parking on the streets in Limerick or in any other city would never work as the lazy fookers who work in town will just take them.

That's why you would need to set a 20-30 min limit, people wh work or who want to spend an hour or more pp into a multistory, those who just want to run in for one or two quick bits coudl then find a spot as there is a constant turn over.

Rather than just putting on the flashing lights and double parking.

kilburn

would be impossible to police

Resi12

I am sorry but people need to seriously get off/over the parking 'fiasco'. That is not it at all and the more people focus on that, the worse the actual problems get.

The fact is there are no good stores, it's that simple. William Street is basically Euroshop central. Then most of the shops on Cruises St/around the town all have another shop in the Crescent. Arthurs Quay is a dive. No cinema (this is so ludicrous, years and the council has still done NOTHING). There's no incentive to go too town unless you need something and this is from locals so why would tourists want to come for the shopping?!

The council are useless, I think any other would have filled the holes in somehow but the majority of stores still just sitting in tatters is disgraceful. Dunnes across from Pierone would be an amazing cafe/restaurant. Imagine the views from the window?

whatdoicare

I hate going into town lately - it's just depressing. The vibe is dismal with most of the shops either closed or turned into pound shops. I even hate meeting people for lunch there - it seems to be a much nicer experience in either the crescent or childers road to meet people and have a stroll around, especially if you have kids.
It was actually a million times easier to do all my Xmas shopping in the crescent last year and didn't bother trying to get into town - I got it all done in an hour and a half and chillaxed with a latte afterwards, no fuss no muss. In years before this it would have taken two - three trips into town as I would have had to drag all my purchases all the way around town and then onto a bus, painful.

The only way to fix the city would be to change it's purpose altogether - forget having it as the place to be for shopping - encourage entertainment and family friendly businesses.
Cinemas, play areas, proper skateboarding parks, fun areas,
proper restaurants that are kid friendly, toy stores,
far far more historic/science/educational/museum buildings,
more quirky shops that can't be found everywhere, a proper playhouse - the belltable is not adequate or modern,
the belltable needs to be renovated and updated to encourage tourists,
more tourist targetted bars/restaurants/shops

Now, the castle needs to get rid of that ugly ass glass building and there very badly needs to be a hell of a lot more going on inside it. The price they are asking for admission is crazy btw
The walkway needs to be finished properly and the old walkway badly updated! The buildings leading up to the castle also need to be turned into shops and restaurants - right now what is there? A run down casino and a chipper? It's a dodgy dodgy looking area for such a major landmark!!
That beautiful tourists bar attached to the castle needs to actually be open!!

Why oh why can't they do to the surrounding areas and the castle itself what they have done to Bunratty?? Why no feast banquets? No actors/tresses?? No old style working buildings? Maybe creating and docking a few old style fake boats and giving trips along the river?
There needs to be more to riverfest too - the whole summer, no two measly weeks!! More shows, more open air stuff to do! More parades!

A big thing they could have is what I saw in Brisbane - they had these, what looked like canvass, sheets covering the mains pedestrianised streets, making the streets sheltered from both rain and sun, very pleasant!

Of course, they need to do a way better job of keeping the city clean and tidy.


These changes wouldn't be insanely hard to do - they would make a world of difference to Limerick!

Mc Love

The parking can be sorted with an hours free parking in the multi-storeys. They have it 2 hours free in Pavillions shopping centre. That would bring people in to town.

I also think some shops in town should stay open til 8 or 9, as when I was in the states, many of the highstreet stores stayed open until this time and kept the buzz going

kilburn

it is amazing reading some peoples replies to threads here, makes you wonder do they actually have their eyes open when they walk around the city FFS

geotrig

the eurocar park does parking for a euro an hour on weekends to a max of 3 quid for the day which is great and i havent seen it full ever so the argument of parking is bollox.! I would choose town over any retail park but as been stated their is very little to go in for which is a pitty .It would be great to see a cinema in the centre again but i think that this would be the one that would suffer the most it would need to have some parking attached to and offer it for free once you attended the pics!

Delphi91

On the parking side of things, here are some of the situations I've come across in various places:

Bruges (Belgium) - Huge car park at the local train station, holds a couple of thousand cars. Parking for the day is relatively cheap - can't remember the exact price, but as part of the fee, you get a bus ride into the city centre included. Essentially a park and ride service, but the distance is short and the buses are very regular. The centre of Bruges is car-free, but buses can travel through.

Donegal Town - ridiculously cheap parking, some thing like 30c an hour with a max of €1.80 for the day - and this is in the centre of the town.

Letterkenny - multistory car park with the first hour free. Anyone who knows Letterkenny will know that there are a number of retail parks around the outskirts of the town within walking distance of the town centre, but the town is still very busy.

All it needs is a little creative thinking outside the box to attract people into the city centre.

While the increased pedestrianisation of Limerick could be argued to be a good thing, the widening of footpaths and the introduction of those smaller parking slots (2-3 cars max) will force people into multistory car parks. Consumers will then argue "Why should I pay for parking when I can go to the Crescent/Parkway, etc and park for free?", driving even more consumers from the city centre. I'm not sure that there's a lot of joined-up thinking going on here between the city council, chamber of commerce, etc.

Kess73

Car parking spaces is just an "issue" that gets chucked out as some kind of excuse for the city performing poorly whilst totally avoiding the fact that in order for people to use the parking spaces, and there are plenty in the car parks in the city centre every day, there has to be a certain number of shops, services, and facilities for attract people in the first place.


The shopping centres killing the city centre is another bit of shyte that gets banded about a lot. The Crescent shopping centre is the only proper shopping centre in Limerick and the only one that has a majority of it's units filled.

The Jetland has about 50% of it's units vacant, the Parkway SC is the same and the Castletroy SC is the same. So those places are doing quite badly and are not the massive drain on the city that the council likes to make out.

Sure there are also retail parks on the outskirts but the same holds true for pretty much every city in Ireland.

If the city centre had a decent number of quality retail outlets, some quality facilities, and entertainment facilities that don't simply consist of a pub/club then the city would see bigger numbers of people with reasons to spend more time in town.

source

Kess you're missing the point, no 1 of these things are causing the problem. It is a mix of everything that is being discussed, the lack of parking plays a part, the poor amenities in the city centre plays a part, the doughnut effect plays a part, the poor range of stores plays a part and the high rates and poor running of the city play a part in the demise of the city.

It is a large number of things that make up a problem like we have here. You can't just say "It's not the parking" and "It's not the shopping centres", because it is, but you'd be right if you said it's not these things in isolation that's causing the problem.

phill106

Resi12 wrote: »

Dunnes across from Pierone would be an amazing cafe/restaurant. Imagine the views from the window?

That would be lovely actually. Wouldn't be hard for them to change their little yard at the back to a few parking spaces as well to help. Have half the side facing the river an open air section, the rest behind floor to ceiling glass windows.
Seems to be a glut of coffee shops about though?

source

phill106 wrote: »

That would be lovely actually. Wouldn't be hard for them to change their little yard at the back to a few parking spaces as well to help. Have half the side facing the river an open air section, the rest behind floor to ceiling glass windows.
Seems to be a glut of coffee shops about though?

You'd need to do more than just that, the place is bloody massive, it'd be great to build an entertainment complex there. A restaurant, cafe and bar upstairs, and something like a licensed bowling alley/cinema/theatre/music venue (or a combination of all) downstairs. Something like that in a prominent position near the river would attract loads of people.

Kess73

source wrote: »

Kess you're missing the point, no 1 of these things are causing the problem. It is a mix of everything that is being discussed, the lack of parking plays a part, the poor amenities in the city centre plays a part, the doughnut effect plays a part, the poor range of stores plays a part and the high rates and poor running of the city play a part in the demise of the city.

It is a large number of things that make up a problem like we have here. You can't just say "It's not the parking" and "It's not the shopping centres", because it is, but you'd be right if you said it's not these things in isolation that's causing the problem.

My point is that whenever a statement gets released as to what the problem is it generally is put down to either the parking "situation" or the out of town shopping centres as to why the city is doing very badly.


Granted you can say it is down to a number of factors, and a valid arguement could be given for six or seven things that have an impact, but in my eyes there is one common failing or problem that has been constant in Limerick for a long time now and that is the quality of the people who have the power and who had the power to react to problems and who had the power to be proactive in trying to stimulate/protect existing business in the city.

Limerick city has been badly let down by those who are meant to run and grow the city. I really don't think there can be an arguement that says otherwise that is actually valid based on what has gone on over the last 20 years or so.

source

Kess73 wrote: »

My point is that whenever a statement gets released as to what the problem is it generally is put down to either the parking "situation" or the out of town shopping centres as to why the city is doing very badly.


Granted you can say it is down to a number of factors, and a valid arguement could be given for six or seven things that have an impact, but in my eyes there is one common failing or problem that has been constant in Limerick for a long time now and that is the quality of the people who have the power and who had the power to react to problems and who had the power to be proactive in trying to stimulate/protect existing business in the city.

Limerick city has been badly let down by those who are meant to run and grow the city. I really don't think there can be an arguement that says otherwise that is actually valid based on what has gone on over the last 20 years or so.

Yeah kess, that's one issue. As I said already there's more than that one issue to blame for the decline. The local government changes continually, especially over 20 years, the council that's there now isn't the same one that was there 20 years ago. Yes there's a lot of ineptitude in how the city is run, but again it's not the only problem we're facing.

Kess73

source wrote: »

Yeah kess, that's one issue. As I said already there's more than that one issue to blame for the decline. The local government changes continually, especially over 20 years, the council that's there now isn't the same one that was there 20 years ago. Yes there's a lot of ineptitude in how the city is run, but again it's not the only problem we're facing.

No it is not the same council in terms of members, but it is the same mistakes, the same parish pump politics, and the same amount of people with no real expertise in the fileds that they are decision makers in.

I know it is not the only problem but it is the constant and recurring problem.

A1Nutboy

As someone who was involved in trying to keep a business in Limerick open and in the city I can honestly say that Parking was the biggest issue. People do not want to park half a mile away and walk to a shop, potentially in the rain when they can park very close by in a shopping centre/retail park and not get wet.

Its a simple fact. In Ireland people love their cars and want to use them. It rains so much that people dont want to have to walk around town.

Parking IS the number 1 issue. Rates is also a very large issue but customers dont see that side obviously.

ninty9er

Delphi91 wrote: »

On the parking side of things, here are some of the situations I've come across in various places:

Bruges (Belgium) - Huge car park at the local train station, holds a couple of thousand cars. Parking for the day is relatively cheap - can't remember the exact price, but as part of the fee, you get a bus ride into the city centre included. Essentially a park and ride service, but the distance is short and the buses are very regular. The centre of Bruges is car-free, but buses can travel through.

While the increased pedestrianisation of Limerick could be argued to be a good thing, the widening of footpaths and the introduction of those smaller parking slots (2-3 cars max) will force people into multistory car parks. Consumers will then argue "Why should I pay for parking when I can go to the Crescent/Parkway, etc and park for free?", driving even more consumers from the city centre. I'm not sure that there's a lot of joined-up thinking going on here between the city council, chamber of commerce, etc.

Parking is NOT the issue...And the train station to the town centre in Brugges is about the same distance from the Fair Green to Debenhams. I walked it recently enough.

The main problem with the city centre is that it IS car centric, not that it isn't. It's difficult to walk around without having to wait every time you want to get to the next place you want to go.

If there's one thing the City Council has gotten right, it's REMOVING cars from the city centre. People arent allowed to drive through the front door of the Crescent to get to Shaws and it doesn't put them off.

Get real. The problem in the city centre is that it's not wholly pedestrian friendly and that it's too spread out.