Bill of Quantities €1600 - is this about right?

Mollywolly

I'm just looking for a bit of advice, or should I say refereeing?

We're planning on knocking and rebuilding an extension of approx. 40 square metres and our architect suggested that we go to a QS to help keep the builder's costs down. He said that he could recommend someone and would ask him to get in touch with us.

We didn't know that this QS was definitely doing the work so I started to get quotes from other QS's, which were in the region of €300/400. Then we get an invoice for €1600 from the guy recommended by our architect, so now I'm beginning to think we've been ripped off but husband says otherwise.

Also we're still waiting to receive the actual BOQ even though we paid the invoice two weeks ago. Is this normal?

ayeboy

Definitately far too much for a BOQ. I would argue the case out with the architect because as far as you were concerned you were waiting on quotes on how much this service cost. Make the architect either pay for the excess or leave it to him to get a fair price of the QS because what he is charging is robbery!

Mollywolly

Thanks ayeboy. The price really didn't seem right to me but it's too late now because the invoice has been paid so we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

You would think with the downturn in the building trade that professionals would be pricing their services accordingly, but it doesn't look that way to me!

ayeboy

Well in fairness your architect should be looking out for your interests and sort of owes you a care of duty not to get screwed. I would still have it out with him and try and get a reduction in his fees. Let us know what total he comes back with on his BOQ (pm me if you want to keep it on the QT before tendering but Im just interested in seeing what percentage the QS is gonna get)

galwaytt

Mollywolly wrote: »

I'm just looking for a bit of advice, or should I say refereeing?

We're planning on knocking and rebuilding an extension of approx. 40 square metres and our architect suggested that we go to a QS to help keep the builder's costs down. He said that he could recommend someone and would ask him to get in touch with us.

We didn't know that this QS was definitely doing the work so I started to get quotes from other QS's, which were in the region of €300/400. Then we get an invoice for €1600 from the guy recommended by our architect, so now I'm beginning to think we've been ripped off but husband says otherwise.

Also we're still waiting to receive the actual BOQ even though we paid the invoice two weeks ago. Is this normal?

It's not normal, it's too much.......and you paid it ? Before even getting it ? Mad, Ted.

Cancel it, in writing, and ask for your money back. If you don't, I'd subtract the 1600 from whatever your Arch asks for and tell him to reclaim it from 'his friend'.

I thought this sort of nonsense was cutout already - obviously not...........

DOCARCH

You shouldn't really need a QS/BOQ for an extension of 40m.sq. - a bit overkill in my opinion.

If the architects plans and specifications are comprehensive (as they should be) there should be very little issues with cost control on a project of this size.

Mollywolly

First of all, thanks for all your replies.

TBH, I think we've been very naive when it came to dealing with the architect. My OH believes that said architect can do no wrong, so when it was suggested that we go with a QS the OH decided to go for it. I didn't want to...I wanted to get quotes from others but was over-ruled. Then, when we got the invoice from the QS saying that the work was done, well we felt that we had no choice but to pay up.

I suppose I just needed confirmation that we were being ripped off and that's what seems to be coming across from all of you.

Many thanks.

muffler

Mollywolly wrote: »

I didn't want to...I wanted to get quotes from others but was over-ruled.

Oh the joys of having a boss

Seriously though you have learned a hard lesson from this. In my opinion you were overcharged but I will qualify that comment by stating Im not privy to all the details obviously.

However there will be more serious payments to come around in the future. Always good to get recommendations but you need to ask for a price in advance and then seek other prices to compare like with like.

sydthebeat

molly....

if you consider that by use of the BOQ the builders quotes can be so precise as to not included for extras such as off-cuts, extra bags of product etc.. then you quite well could save that 1600 over the course of the build.

however, you need to be able to physically see these figures, and be able to hold the QS liable should his/her figures being wrong.

Is each tendered provided with a blank BOQ, with the quantities provided, to fill out themselves and provide to you as part of the tender?

BryanF

molly, maybe find out whether site meetings and builder variations/ costs will be controlled/managed by QS during the project + final account etc. this may be the reason for the seemingly high fees. I appreciate this is a small extension but you haven't said what your budget is, and whether your getting a piece of bespoke architecture or a lean-too out the back:)

Mollywolly

I really don't want to drag this out, but in response to recent posters:

1. Still awaiting BOQ from QS so not able to send out to tender. Not even sure if the QS has included this service in his bill. There has been a severe lack of communication from architect and QS.

2. The budget is €40k.

3. The extension is a simple one which will include a sitting room, kitchen and shower room. Nothing fancy - regular windows, 1 back door, rendered walls and flat roof. Flat roof because the grand scheme is to add another level with a master suite and family bathroom at some point in the future when funds allow.

So there you have it. Not a lot I can do about it at this point in time but perhaps all will be made clear when we hear from the QS and see the BOQ.

galwaytt

One of the guys here in the office got PP for his new build, yesterday.

He got a price from a QS for a BOQ......and was quoted €300.

YMMV and all that, and even if it was twice that......it's still only about a 1/3rd of what Molly got billed for.

Outrageous, tbh. If I were you I'd drop him a polite note/call saying that whilst you have paid, as agreed, in hindsight he was too expensive, based on what we've told you.

babsybaby01

Sounds like the architect made a few quid off it

Mollywolly

Just a quick update. The BOQ finally arrived and was way over our budget, even though both the architect and QS knew that we had only €40k for the extension. We had an additional €10k for contingencies that we didn't tell them about, but the BOQ came out at €72k...wtf?!?

When we queried this with the architect his response was that we could leave out the site works and save maybe €10/15k. This would still leave us over budget so we declined a meeting with him. Personally, I think we have wasted enough time with "professionals" and it's time for us to make our own decisions.

As a result of this, we've decided not to knock the existing extension but to renovate instead and I'm hoping that my OH will have the sense to tell these two jokers to go and do one

Thanks to all of you who have offered advice and comments.

Molly

BryanF

Mollywolly wrote: »

Just a quick update. The BOQ finally arrived and was way over our budget, even though both the architect and QS knew that we had only €40k for the extension. We had an additional €10k for contingencies that we didn't tell them about, but the BOQ came out at €72k...wtf?!?

When we queried this with the architect his response was that we could leave out the site works and save maybe €10/15k. This would still leave us over budget so we declined a meeting with him. Personally, I think we have wasted enough time with "professionals" and it's time for us to make our own decisions.

As a result of this, we've decided not to knock the existing extension but to renovate instead and I'm hoping that my OH will have the sense to tell these two jokers to go and do one

Thanks to all of you who have offered advice and comments.

Molly

sounds to me like there's something amiss here? it seems foolish to decline a meeting to 'have it out' with your architect? if you, your OH, or any of your friends are DIY people then there will surely be some savings in the demolition, ground and site works? also why not throw up the costed main bulk items here and see if you/your arch has gone for the higher spec goods (for instance a kitchen can be gotten for 4g or 14g). also is your existing house getting any work done? - that's normally where the extra costs come from in an extension situation.
just a word of warning, there was probably a good reason for knocking the extension and you deciding to keep and renovate it, may throw up other issues that you are not / or were not made aware of. I would certainly be suggesting you get a structural engineer to check the existing before adding a load of money to it:)

galwaytt

Mollywolly wrote: »

Just a quick update. The BOQ finally arrived and was way over our budget, even though both the architect and QS knew that we had only €40k for the extension. We had an additional €10k for contingencies that we didn't tell them about, but the BOQ came out at €72k...wtf?!?

When we queried this with the architect his response was that we could leave out the site works and save maybe €10/15k. This would still leave us over budget so we declined a meeting with him. Personally, I think we have wasted enough time with "professionals" and it's time for us to make our own decisions.

As a result of this, we've decided not to knock the existing extension but to renovate instead and I'm hoping that my OH will have the sense to tell these two jokers to go and do one

Thanks to all of you who have offered advice and comments.

Molly

You're right - if they have not taken your needs -which includes your budget, into account properly, and delivered something to you that works within it, then they patently aren't listening, and you are right: call it quits and move on.

That doesn't mean you can't/don't/shouldn't have your extension, though. You just need to find the right people, and a good builder, and you'll make much better progress.

kkelliher

Mollywolly wrote: »

Just a quick update. The BOQ finally arrived and was way over our budget, even though both the architect and QS knew that we had only €40k for the extension. We had an additional €10k for contingencies that we didn't tell them about, but the BOQ came out at €72k...wtf?!?

When we queried this with the architect his response was that we could leave out the site works and save maybe €10/15k. This would still leave us over budget so we declined a meeting with him. Personally, I think we have wasted enough time with "professionals" and it's time for us to make our own decisions.

As a result of this, we've decided not to knock the existing extension but to renovate instead and I'm hoping that my OH will have the sense to tell these two jokers to go and do one

Thanks to all of you who have offered advice and comments.

Molly

The BOQ will be based on the drawings and specifications made by the Architect so if the estimate is overbudget you will need to pull back on the design or level of works required.

In relation to the cost, like all things if you shop around you will get variance. Comparing two properties is not comparing apples with apples as the work involved can differ from property to property. Also you will find at present that there are alot of unemployed surveyors like all other professionals who are doing freelance or nixer work for a fraction of the cost of professional practices. They will in most cases have no office overhead, no marketing costs, no professional indemnity insurance and others. You do pay in general for what you get.

As a quantity surveyor with over 12 years experience I cannot see how anyone can deliver a fully detailed bill of quantiites for a one off house for €300 but if they wish to charge that they are fully entitled to.

kkelliher

DOCARCH wrote: »

You shouldn't really need a QS/BOQ for an extension of 40m.sq. - a bit overkill in my opinion.

If the architects plans and specifications are comprehensive (as they should be) there should be very little issues with cost control on a project of this size.

I have to disagree with this completely. From the outset I am a QS so will be biased.

There is more to a BOQ/Qs than simply detailing the cost. I am working with a growing list of Architects who are now moving to a BOQ type tender document in the hope of achieving clarity in tendering. More and More the detail been provided by Contractors is getting less and less and it is turning into a gamble as to the possibility of completion of the project in certain circumstances. It is too easy to say "well its on the drawing" if something is in dispute especially if the builder simply cant afford to put it in.

It also enables contractors to return a price without the excessive cost of tendering. Most contractors cannot afford to pay a QS to price on an ongoing basis as the tender market is gone ridiculously tight and you may be lucky to win one in five or six tenders. If a boq type schedule is provided you are better assured of a competitive tender as the cost of tendering is substantially less.

badger81

is there a quantity surveyor around tipp/offaly area here.
i'll need one shortly.....hoopefully
pm pls
regards
badge

archtech

Mollywolly wrote: »

Just a quick update. The BOQ finally arrived and was way over our budget, even though both the architect and QS knew that we had only €40k for the extension. We had an additional €10k for contingencies that we didn't tell them about, but the BOQ came out at €72k...wtf?!?

When we queried this with the architect his response was that we could leave out the site works and save maybe €10/15k. This would still leave us over budget so we declined a meeting with him. Personally, I think we have wasted enough time with "professionals" and it's time for us to make our own decisions.

As a result of this, we've decided not to knock the existing extension but to renovate instead and I'm hoping that my OH will have the sense to tell these two jokers to go and do one

Thanks to all of you who have offered advice and comments.

Molly

While there is a big difference between 40K and 72K, there very well may be a reason as to why there is a difference.The proposed works may well have been close to budget when you set out your brief however contrary to what most people think the cost of materials is up about 15% in recent months and unfortunately they're still rising. Furthermore a QS preparing a BOQ isn't going to prepare a price based on a building contractors obtaining lowest available rates across the board, and will be allowing builder's profit.

Very often too the brief changes, what started off as a one roomed extension, ends up, opening up other areas into the extension, altering partitions/spaces etc all of which can be difficult enough, to factor into a budget cost until there is a relative amount of design detail undertaken.

Access to the works can have a huge bearing on the costs of extensions; a restricted access could add anything from 30%-50% extra to the cost of an extension above that of same extension and works to a similar house, where access was not an issue.

The site works seems a lot, is there extensive landscaping planned and if so was that outlined as part of the original budget?

You should sit down with the architect and qs and review the project, there will be areas where savings can be made.

Mollywolly

BryanF wrote: »

sounds to me like there's something amiss here? it seems foolish to decline a meeting to 'have it out' with your architect? if you, your OH, or any of your friends are DIY people then there will surely be some savings in the demolition, ground and site works? also why not throw up the costed main bulk items here and see if you/your arch has gone for the higher spec goods (for instance a kitchen can be gotten for 4g or 14g). also is your existing house getting any work done? - that's normally where the extra costs come from in an extension situation.
just a word of warning, there was probably a good reason for knocking the extension and you deciding to keep and renovate it, may throw up other issues that you are not / or were not made aware of. I would certainly be suggesting you get a structural engineer to check the existing before adding a load of money to it:)

Neither me nor the OH are DIY people so all of the work would have to be done by others. Even taking out the figure mentioned for the site works, and reducing the pc sum for the kitchen/sanitary ware, we're still looking at a budget of €52k. I don't want to go into personal details but our finances are stretched as it is so further loans to fund this are out of the question.

As far as the existing structure is concerned, it's fairly sound (was only built in the 60's). We just wanted to replace it because we didn't like it and thought it could look better. Along with the architect and QS, a Structural Engineer has been involved in the project and he thinks it will stand for a good while longer yet.

Mollywolly

archtech wrote: »

Very often too the brief changes, what started off as a one roomed extension, ends up, opening up other areas into the extension, altering partitions/spaces etc all of which can be difficult enough, to factor into a budget cost until there is a relative amount of design detail undertaken.

We were happy with the architect's design and because of our strict budget we had no plans to make any alterations.

Access to the works can have a huge bearing on the costs of extensions; a restricted access could add anything from 30%-50% extra to the cost of an extension above that of same extension and works to a similar house, where access was not an issue.

Access is easy enough - off the main road and up a long, private drive, so I can't see that this should have added any extra cost. Of course, the QS was working in collaboration with the Architect and discussed it with him on the phone. As far as I know the QS didn't even see the site.

The site works seems a lot, is there extensive landscaping planned and if so was that outlined as part of the original budget?

There was no landscaping planned or included in the original drawings. In fact, we knew that we would have to be living on a building site for a few years So again this has no bearing on the BOQ.

You should sit down with the architect and qs and review the project, there will be areas where savings can be made.

Hmmm, having taken all of the above into account, I doubt that there would be enough of a saving made which would enable us to build a new extension at this moment in time. Maybe when we win the Lotto!

I hope that my answers to your points show that this really is a hopeless case and that we now just need to move on and get on with it.

bruschi

Mollywolly wrote: »

I hope that my answers to your points show that this really is a hopeless case and that we now just need to move on and get on with it.

just a suggestion, but seeing as you have paid for the architect/QS, get them to give you a set of drawings on pdf and a blank BOQ on excel or pdf, and ask a couple of local small builders to price it. You might be surprised at what comes of it. it wont cost you anythnig to get it priced, and I reckon it would be a lot more reflective of what is out there and you never know, might even meet your budget.

galwaytt

bruschi wrote: »

just a suggestion, but seeing as you have paid for the architect/QS, get them to give you a set of drawings on pdf and a blank BOQ on excel or pdf, and ask a couple of local small builders to price it. You might be surprised at what comes of it. it wont cost you anythnig to get it priced, and I reckon it would be a lot more reflective of what is out there and you never know, might even meet your budget.

What's with the .pdf's ? Get them on CAD. Tell the arch you want the cad file for the plan you'v paid for.

Sending pdf's to people gets you estimate's, not quote's. There is a difference.

bruschi

galwaytt wrote: »

What's with the .pdf's ? Get them on CAD. Tell the arch you want the cad file for the plan you'v paid for.

Sending pdf's to people gets you estimate's, not quote's. There is a difference.

most people would have adobe and can read pdf's, not always the case for CAD. I know anytime I'm sending out stuff most people ask for pdf's as they dont have the (admittadly free) CAD or DWG reading software.

Calvin001

Assumming you have paid the Architect more that th QS at the moment you are over €4k out of pocket and have not recieved what you are paying them for, i.e. drawings/design, and bill of quantities for pricing on a Project worth around €40k.
You need to meet with both Arch and QS, review why the costs stand at €72k (there may be allowances for work not required or sums for high spec work when mid-range stuff will do - i.e. you say you dont need to do the garden now, but the QS may have allowed €2k for landscaping). The least you deserve from the Arch and QS is this meeting, and dont be afraid to ask for an explaination for anything you dont fully understand.
After this is done and you get either revised costs or drawings or both, you should then be able to get a tender document on a CD from your Architect for issuing to a couple of local contractors (dont just use the Architects recommendations). This should not cost you any extra fees, but will give you full cost certainty for the Project before you proceed with any work on site.

galwaytt

bruschi wrote: »

most people would have adobe and can read pdf's, not always the case for CAD. I know anytime I'm sending out stuff most people ask for pdf's as they dont have the (admittadly free) CAD or DWG reading software.

I understand - for OP and other endusers, pdf's are great, and are very handy - I always issue the CAD and pdf's to client's at the same time. This way they have the pdf to read, and the cad to give to whomever they want, to actually work from.

But in the context of getting thing's priced - accurately (as the exact point of this thread it seems, to me...) - forget pdf's. Example: I got a set of pdf's to price about 3 weeks ago, for job. A3 size, nicely done.
Catch ? You expect me to work out a price for an 800m2 building from an A3 'picture' ?? Worse, a price that anyone could stick to ?? Can't be done.

nager

I've been reading this post and I have to say I'm baffled.
A QS for a 40m2 extension??? As a QS with 25 years experience - I think this a farce. If the architect did a proper job and designed it with sufficient notes, regarding specification etc - there would be no problem getting a comprehensive quote from a number of builders.

You have been royally shafted...

DOCARCH

nager wrote: »

I've been reading this post and I have to say I'm baffled.
A QS for a 40m2 extension??? As a QS with 25 years experience - I think this a farce. If the architect did a proper job and designed it with sufficient notes, regarding specification etc - there would be no problem getting a comprehensive quote from a number of builders.

You have been royally shafted...

+ 1

Reiterates post I made earlier in this thread.

Mollywolly

DOCARCH wrote: »

+ 1

Reiterates post I made earlier in this thread.

This is my own opinion too - I may be a woman but I'm not completely stupid

However, when it's your OH who prefers to trust the word of the architect rather than listen to his own missus, what am I supposed to do? I've even had him read the replies on this thread from those who know better than me, but still he can't see what's under his nose!

On a lighter note, we spoke to a local contractor at the weekend who has taken the architect's plans to give us a quote. Fingers crossed!

bruschi

Mollywolly wrote: »

This is my own opinion too - I may be a woman but I'm not completely stupid

However, when it's your OH who prefers to trust the word of the architect rather than listen to his own missus, what am I supposed to do? I've even had him read the replies on this thread from those who know better than me, but still he can't see what's under his nose!

On a lighter note, we spoke to a local contractor at the weekend who has taken the architect's plans to give us a quote. Fingers crossed!

good stuff. did you give him the BOQ as well? if not, you should get the QS to give it to you just out of spite if nothing else. no point in spending that money and have nothign to show for it. an unpriced version of it is easy to print. and get some other contractors to price it, can never have enough quotes.