Non adherence to building regulations

radiat

The house i'm living in was built 7 years ago but we've found a real problem with condensation in the attic. In section F of the building regulations 2009 (Ventilation) it says: "Adequate provision shall be made to prevent excessive
condensation in a roof or in a roof void above an insulated ceiling." This is not the case in our house because due to the unusual design of the house there is only external ventilation on one side of the attic and not on the others. Is there an older building regulation that would cover the time we had our house built and is there a length of time after which the adherence to the building regulations is no longer the responsibility of the developer. Any thanks would be great.

BryanF

radiat wrote: »

The house i'm living in was built 7 years ago but we've found a real problem with condensation in the attic. In section F of the building regulations 2009 (Ventilation) it says: "Adequate provision shall be made to prevent excessive
condensation in a roof or in a roof void above an insulated ceiling." This is not the case in our house because due to the unusual design of the house there is only external ventilation on one side of the attic and not on the others. Is there an older building regulation that would cover the time we had our house built and is there a length of time after which the adherence to the building regulations is no longer the responsibility of the developer. Any thanks would be great.

Ye there's a similar sentence in the 2002 regs http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1654,en.pdf
If your covered by an insurance policy ask your insurer if there is anything they will pay towards remedial works. These works may not be too expensive, but get a surveyor or arch to take a look and advise you on the best solution, some ventilated slate would probably help. Also check if your home is covered by Homebond (a sort of builders insurance scheme lasting/covering for ten years)

sinnerboy

radiat wrote: »

is there a length of time after which the adherence to the building regulations is no longer the responsibility of the developer. Any thanks would be great.

The building owner is always responsible for compliance with building regulations.

I would second BryanF's advice. Don't bother contacting the Local Authority enforcement section though - they will simply point out the 1st point I made to you.

radiat

sinnerboy wrote: »

The building owner is always responsible for compliance with building regulations.

Sinnerboy, if the building owner is responsible for building regulations who controls the builders? Can they build whatever they want and then it's the responsibility of the owner to ensure what they've done complies? I'm missing something here.

In my case i would blame the architect (gasp!! don't ban me!!!) for only designing one ventilation access point.

Regarding the ventilation tiles, we got some installed already but it still didn't fix the problem.

archtech

radiat wrote: »

In my case i would blame the architect (gasp!! don't ban me!!!) for only designing one ventilation access point.

And was the architect engaged to prepare construction/working drawings?

radiat

archtech wrote: »

And was the architect engaged to prepare construction/working drawings?

I don't know but surely an architect would be needed for this? The house was part of a development.

ResearchWill

radiat wrote: »

archtech wrote: »

And was the architect engaged to prepare construction/working drawings?

I don't know but surely an architect would be needed for this? The house was part of a development.

I assume this house is covered by the homebond. Built within 10 years part of a development. I suppose it will come down to the question is the problem a structural defect.

archtech

radiat wrote: »

I don't know but surely an architect would be needed for this? The house was part of a development.

In many instances developers would not have retained the services of a professional to monitor construction work of developments, other than to undertake an inspection for conveyancing purposes at completion.

Did you not engage a professional to give the house a once over before you bought it?

Your problem like many others, is there is a lack of regulated building control in this country..

BryanF

archtech wrote: »

Your problem like many others, is there is a lack of regulated building control in this country..

+1

Radiat
you can blame who every you want, we have only your word, that the only cause of the condensation is a lack of ventilation points. have you a copy of the drawings? how do you know the arch did not specify more vents and the contractor did not install them?

DOCARCH

archtech wrote: »

In many instances developers would not have retained the services of a professional to monitor construction work of developments...

Form experience, it's most instances (rather than many).

Building control in this country is laissez faire - basically you can thank the Galway tent for that!

Poor Uncle Tom

radiat wrote: »

....if the building owner is responsible for building regulations who controls the builders? Can they build whatever they want and then it's the responsibility of the owner to ensure what they've done complies?

If the building owner has a contract and if the contract states that the builder is to carry out the works in compliance with the Building Regulations then the building owners solicitor may have some come back.

radiat wrote: »

In my case i would blame the architect (gasp!! don't ban me!!!) for only designing one ventilation access point.

As pointed out, there may not have been any specific design of ventilation for the building, the building owner may not have wanted to pay for working drawings or for proper supervision of the build.

radiat wrote: »

Regarding the ventilation tiles, we got some installed already but it still didn't fix the problem.

Did you get it looked at by a professional or did you just bang in a couple of vent slates and hope for the best?

archtech wrote: »

In many instances developers would not have retained the services of a professional to monitor construction work of developments, other than to undertake an inspection for conveyancing purposes at completion.

Unfortunately this is a very common approach.

archtech wrote: »

Did you not engage a professional to give the house a once over before you bought it?

And if so, what brief did they get?

archtech wrote: »

Your problem like many others, is there is a lack of regulated building control in this country..

One per county can barely keep up with the paperwork let alone site inspections.

Given that the average building site in this country has no full time site supervision, no working drawings, no visit from the Building Control Officer during the build and no restrictions on who can call themselves a Building Contractor it is hugely impressive how there are not a lot more problems turning up on re-sales or at final certification stage.

Mellor

radiat wrote: »

Sinnerboy, if the building owner is responsible for building regulations who controls the builders? Can they build whatever they want and then it's the responsibility of the owner to ensure what they've done complies? I'm missing something here.

In my case i would blame the architect (gasp!! don't ban me!!!) for only designing one ventilation access point.

Regarding the ventilation tiles, we got some installed already but it still didn't fix the problem.

The builder is contractly obliged to build in accordance with the regs.
If its not in accordance with the regs, its now your job to fix it. If the builder was at fault, or the designer was at fault, then you may back soem come back later on. /but right now its your problem.

To use a crude example, if you are driving on he road with faultly lights its your problem. You get the fine, regardless of who sold you the car. You might back some comeback later if the seller was at fault, but a lot of the time you have agreed to buy the car in the condition it was in.

You are only speculating as to what the problem is, you blamed the architect when you don't even know if there was one.

martinn123

radiat wrote: »

The house i'm living in was built 7 years ago but we've found a real problem with condensation in the attic. In section F of the building regulations 2009 (Ventilation) it says: "Adequate provision shall be made to prevent excessive
condensation in a roof or in a roof void above an insulated ceiling." This is not the case in our house because due to the unusual design of the house there is only external ventilation on one side of the attic and not on the others.

There has been a lot of speculation in posts here, but assuming the quotation above from Section F is correct, someone is responsible.

The majority of Architectural professionals here are blaming, the owner, the developer, the Galway Tent, poor supervision by Co Co etc. All valid I am sure, but surely there was an Architect at some stage.
OK he may not have done working drawings, OK he may not have done regular site visits, but someone signed off on Compliance with Building Reg's, who.

Now one of you will post a form of words used in these Certs to say, this Cert, while called a Cert, is not really a Cert, buy I wany a fee anyway.
I cannot certify what I did not see, but sure its good enough to get a mortgage.

So perhaps if the Solicitor who closed the conveyance, has a look for a Cert of Compliance with Building Reg's and see if his Liability Insurance premium was paid.

No offence to all of you who work in this Industry, but someone has to say, as in the Tom Crean Add, '' I made a mistake''

Supertech

martinn123 wrote: »

There has been a lot of speculation in posts here, but assuming the quotation above from Section F is correct, someone is responsible.

The majority of Architectural professionals here are blaming, the owner, the developer, the Galway Tent, poor supervision by Co Co etc. All valid I am sure, but surely there was an Architect at some stage.
OK he may not have done working drawings, OK he may not have done regular site visits, but someone signed off on Compliance with Building Reg's, who.

Now one of you will post a form of words used in these Certs to say, this Cert, while called a Cert, is not really a Cert, buy I wany a fee anyway.
I cannot certify what I did not see, but sure its good enough to get a mortgage.

So perhaps if the Solicitor who closed the conveyance, has a look for a Cert of Compliance with Building Reg's and see if his Liability Insurance premium was paid.

No offence to all of you who work in this Industry, but someone has to say, as in the Tom Crean Add, '' I made a mistake''

So in your opinion the builder can claim ignorance and walk away ?

BryanF

martinn123 wrote: »

There has been a lot of speculation in posts here, but assuming the quotation above from Section F is correct, someone is responsible.

The majority of Architectural professionals here are blaming, the owner, the developer, the Galway Tent, poor supervision by Co Co etc. All valid I am sure, but surely there was an Architect at some stage.
OK he may not have done working drawings, OK he may not have done regular site visits, but someone signed off on Compliance with Building Reg's, who.

martain,
that should read 'opinion' on compliance, as you well know, it can be very difficult when a house is plaster painted to see if it compiles with every building regulation.
were getting off of the topic here, the OP is looking for someone to blame, and from what he has told us here, I have already suggested he contact a professional to get advice on how to sort it, and homebond + his insurance provider to recoup any losses. he has chosen to play the blame game, which will not solve the problem 7 years on, with very few facts of what is causing the problem or info on the origional D&B team....

archtech

martinn123 wrote: »

There has been a lot of speculation in posts here, but assuming the quotation above from Section F is correct, someone is responsible.

The majority of Architectural professionals here are blaming, the owner, the developer, the Galway Tent, poor supervision by Co Co etc. All valid I am sure, but surely there was an Architect at some stage.
OK he may not have done working drawings, OK he may not have done regular site visits, but someone signed off on Compliance with Building Reg's, who.

Now one of you will post a form of words used in these Certs to say, this Cert, while called a Cert, is not really a Cert, buy I wany a fee anyway.
I cannot certify what I did not see, but sure its good enough to get a mortgage.

So perhaps if the Solicitor who closed the conveyance, has a look for a Cert of Compliance with Building Reg's and see if his Liability Insurance premium was paid.

No offence to all of you who work in this Industry, but someone has to say, as in the Tom Crean Add, '' I made a mistake''

At the end of the day Martin it is the builder who builds the building not the client/purchaser, or the architect. It is his/her responsibility to build the building in accordance with the minimum building regulations, unless otherwise instructed by the client or architect. Have a read here of a day in court I had last year with a building contractor and no working drawings/site monitoring by a professional.

archtech

BryanF wrote: »

, the OP is looking for someone to blame, and from what he has told us here, I have already suggested he contact a professional to get advice on how to sort it, and homebond + his insurance provider to recoup any losses. he has chosen to play the blame game, which will not solve the problem 7 years on, with very few facts of what is causing the problem or info on the origional D&B team....

with regard to homebond certainly contact them, however it most probable that they will kick to touch and say its not a structural problem.( however that could change over time if the problem is not addressed)

sinnerboy

Radiat you really have 2 choices.

1. Spend money on a Solicitor to try to establish blame and then perhaps bring the party or parties to court. This will be slow and expensive. You may end up locating parties who no longer even reside in Ireland .

2. Spend money on an expert inspection and fix the problem. This may well be quick and inexpensive. Or try the Homebond route , you may not end up paying anything. EDIT - I crossed posts with post no 17 by Arctech when first writing this post. I agree with him.

Your opening post fixes on only ventilation which is only 1 of 2 fundamental aspects discussed here . I have reformatted the the text to insert numbers . Other than that a direct qoute.

1 . T h e t r a d i t i o n a l m e t h o d o f l i m i t i n g
condensation in roof spaces is through the provision
of adequate ventilation for cavities or attic spaces on
the cold side of the roof insulation.

2. Alternatively,where such cavities or spaces are absent, an effective
vapour barrier is provided on the warm side of the insulation so that vapour from the building cannot permeate the insulation.

Some questions

1. Since the building was completed were any recessed light fittings installed in the ceiling below the attic ?
2. Bathroom / ensuite extract fans - if there are ducts leading from these within the attic void - are the perfectly intact . could one be displaced leading to bathroom extract air being dumped into the attic. ?
3. How are your gutters ? If they are full of dirt / weeds it's possible that there may be continuous pvc ventilation slots located behind and just above the gutters which are blocked up .

3 potential examples whereby you would be wasting time and money trying blame anyone else for your condensation issue.

galwaytt

radiat wrote: »

The house i'm living in was built 7 years ago but we've found a real problem with condensation in the attic. In section F of the building regulations 2009 (Ventilation) it says: "Adequate provision shall be made to prevent excessive
condensation in a roof or in a roof void above an insulated ceiling." This is not the case in our house because due to the unusual design of the house there is only external ventilation on one side of the attic and not on the others. Is there an older building regulation that would cover the time we had our house built and is there a length of time after which the adherence to the building regulations is no longer the responsibility of the developer. Any thanks would be great.

Realistically, and with all the will in the world, it's your problem now. Issues of redress are a matter for another time - you need to fix it.

It will probably cost less to fix it than engaging people to argue with people from 7 years ago............and you may still end up paying for it. Happened to me. BTDT as they say.

sinnerboy

martinn123 wrote: »

There has been a lot of speculation in posts here, but assuming the quotation above from Section F is correct, someone is responsible.

It's correct , it's not complete.

martinn123 wrote: »

The majority of Architectural professionals here are blaming, the owner, the developer, the Galway Tent, poor supervision by Co Co etc. All valid I am sure, but surely there was an Architect at some stage.OK he may not have done working drawings, OK he may not have done regular site visits, but someone signed off on Compliance with Building Reg's, who.

Now one of you will post a form of words used in these Certs to say, this Cert, while called a Cert, is not really a Cert, buy I wany a fee anyway.
I cannot certify what I did not see, but sure its good enough to get a mortgage.

The majority are using their expertise to try to help. You are posting in ignorance and ranting.

Certificates are issued to allow €€€€'s to transfer. They lend comfort to the Lender that should the Borrower not pay and the Lender re possesses then in that case the building substantially complies. It does not make the Certificate writer a lightning rod for every issue that may later arise.

martinn123 wrote: »

So perhaps if the Solicitor who closed the conveyance, has a look for a Cert of Compliance with Building Reg's and see if his Liability Insurance premium was paid.

Legal actions are by there very nature slow and expensive. Appropriate action like I posted above should not be .

martinn123 wrote: »

No offence to all of you who work in this Industry, but someone has to say, as in the Tom Crean Add, '' I made a mistake''

Ah , go on ya good thing Martin , your never offensive.

martinn123

sinnerboy wrote: »

You are posting in ignorance and ranting.






Ah , go on ya good thing Martin , your never offensive.

Et Tu Brute

martinn123

archtech wrote: »

At the end of the day Martin it is the builder who builds the building not the client/purchaser, or the architect. It is his/her responsibility to build the building in accordance with the minimum building regulations, unless otherwise instructed by the client or architect. Have a read here of a day in court I had last year with a building contractor and no working drawings/site monitoring by a professional.

Thanks for the interesting read of your day in court, one big assumption here is that the builder may have been building without working plans, and so should have complied with minimum reg's

I have no more info than anyone else, but picked up on three points.

radiat wrote:

1.due to the unusual design of the house there is only external ventilation on one side of the attic and not on the others

2.In my case i would blame the architect (gasp!! don't ban me!!!) for only designing one ventilation access point.

3.The house was part of a development

So its in a development, and poorly designed, I wonder if other houses in the development have a similar problem.

My previous post was to suggest, an Architect was surely involved in some capacity. I would investigate at what level.

The concensus seems to be that its up to the OP to sort out, probably right, as everyone else is gone, and he has no prospect of assistance from the original protagonists.

Poor Uncle Tom

martinn123 wrote: »

The concensus seems to be that its up to the OP to sort out, probably right, as everyone else is gone, and he has no prospect of assistance from the original protagonists.

This is not the reason at all.

Under the Building Control Act 1990 there is legal onus on the owner to ensure that the building is constructed in accordance with the Building Regulations and failure to do so is a breach of that Act.

radiat

I think i'll just forget about the builders etc and get it sorted myself. Hope it's not too dear.

Thanks all for the input.

sydthebeat

radiat, you need to first identify the cause of the problem before you can consider a solution.

this could be due to excess condensation, or lack of ventilation.

the resolution could be as little as a 4" core drill and €30.... a piece of wavin pipe, and two external grills.... and 2 hrs of your time..

along the side that you say there is ventilation provided.... is it fully clear in all areas, ie is a 50mm gap maintained between the insulation and the felt?

on the opposite side, i assume you have a full gable, probably about 7 m wide?... thus theres no eaves to ventilate to. Two 4" wall vents could improve the situation dramatically...

radiat

As a matter of interest here's a crude drawing of the attic space

Mellor

Matinn, I don't know why you insist on posting on topics where you don't understand the issue. it's border line trolling, and it really has stop.

martinn123 wrote: »

My previous post was to suggest, an Architect was surely involved in some capacity. I would investigate at what level.

If there was a architect involved in the technical design then he may well be to blame. Nobdy has said any different. If there was one involved at another stage he isn't responsible, you don't appear to understand that. "At some stage" means nothing.

And even if there was one involved, the fact that its not built in accordance with regs, doesn't mean it wasn't designed that way.

BryanF

sinnerboy wrote: »

Some questions

1. Since the building was completed were any recessed light fittings installed in the ceiling below the attic ?
2. Bathroom / ensuite extract fans - if there are ducts leading from these within the attic void - are the perfectly intact . could one be displaced leading to bathroom extract air being dumped into the attic. ?
3. How are your gutters ? If they are full of dirt / weeds it's possible that there may be continuous pvc ventilation slots located behind and just above the gutters which are blocked up .

3 potential examples whereby you would be wasting time and money trying blame anyone else for your condensation issue.

+1
I wonder is there any vapour/airtightness membrane or foil back plasterboard installed, and whether moisture escaping from the house is a major contributor to the condensation.
or was the correct type of roofing felt used..

BryanF

radiat wrote: »

As a matter of interest here's a crude drawing of the attic space

you say numerous vent tiles, are they on both sides? and if so could ridge ventilators be installed?