Denver Broncos Thread

poldebruin

spiralism wrote: »

I don't know who else i'd rather. I just know this stands to get a lot worse once he retires. It's not all his fault but he didn't do enough and ultimately pulled off what Favre did in the 09 NFCCG with the game on the line. Has to look in the mirror.

It's not all on him though. Defence gave up 38 points in our back yard as 13-3 top seeds. We wasted a career day by our returner.

Ultimately, it would take a serious optimist of a broncos fan to hold any hope this team can reach the promised land based on tonight. Plain and simple, we pissed down our leg.

Chin up Spiralism.

After the season he had, you definitely shouldn't be down on Manning. We have one of the best 5 qbs in the nfl for maybe another 2 or 3 years. It's still a relatively new team, GM and coaching staff, who have shown they can make the right moves in the offseason,. Manning had the game won and the D blew it in the end.

A bitter loss in the playoffs is not necessarily a terrible thing for a team, we lost in even more heartbreaking fashion to the Jags in 97 and it spurred the team to 2 Superbowl wins.

Maybe your expectations are a little too high for the team. You have to ask yourself what constitutes a good season for you. Only 1 of 32 teams will win the Superbowl. I endured what were a mixture of good years, followed by humiliating losses in the Superbowl (39-2-, 42-10 and 55-10) and it only made it sweeter when we finally did win it. Stick with the team, it looks like it;s going in the right direction.

spiralism

matthew8 wrote: »

I think it's awfully harsh to blame it all on Manning. The way he had played he shouldn't have had to go to overtime. Fox wouldn't let him finish the Ravens in the 4th quarter, he threw a pick 6 on a pressure and a ball that bounced off one of his own players. Not to mention the total defensive collapse. Manning has had his great moments in the playoffs and his poor moments, just like nearly everybody else. It happens when you put the team on your back.

It's not all his fault by any means...though his postseason record speaks for itself.

John Fox should be fired but won't be. Marty Schottenheimer 2.0.

frostie500

matthew8 wrote: »

I think it's awfully harsh to blame it all on Manning. The way he had played he shouldn't have had to go to overtime. Fox wouldn't let him finish the Ravens in the 4th quarter, he threw a pick 6 on a pressure and a ball that bounced off one of his own players. Not to mention the total defensive collapse. Manning has had his great moments in the playoffs and his poor moments, just like nearly everybody else. It happens when you put the team on your back.

Totally agree Matthew in that it's harsh to blame Peyton. As I said I think that if Moreno hadn't gotten injured it could have been a different result and the pick wasnt his fault. He out the ball where it needed to be and the Ravens did better in the tip drill and came away with a TD which obviously was crucial tonight.

However, and Im not sure if youre saying this about this season or Manning's overall career, I dont think it's fair to say that Manning put the Broncos on his back this year. Obviously in Indy he was the team but in Denver he has had the help of a world class defence that today simply couldnt execute against the Ravens who played better than the Broncos.

matthew8

frostie500 wrote: »

However, and Im not sure if youre saying this about this season or Manning's overall career, I dont think it's fair to say that Manning put the Broncos on his back this year. Obviously in Indy he was the team but in Denver he has had the help of a world class defence that today simply couldnt execute against the Ravens who played better than the Broncos.

Well today he put the team on his back, but he got plenty of help during the regular season. He sure as hell didn't get them to 13-3 on his own.

Though I'm a Ravens fan, I do hate to see Manning bow out, especially because all the talk of choking seems to be resurfacing, which I really don't think is fair after all he's accomplished.

spiralism

frostie500 wrote: »

Totally agree Matthew in that it's harsh to blame Peyton. As I said I think that if Moreno hadn't gotten injured it could have been a different result and the pick wasnt his fault. He out the ball where it needed to be and the Ravens did better in the tip drill and came away with a TD which obviously was crucial tonight.

However, and Im not sure if youre saying this about this season or Manning's overall career, I dont think it's fair to say that Manning put the Broncos on his back this year. Obviously in Indy he was the team but in Denver he has had the help of a world class defence that today simply couldnt execute against the Ravens who played better than the Broncos.

That's my worry. Manning didn't bottle it (alone). Manning, the Defence and John Fox collectively pissed down their legs. Never has the saying "we lost that as a team" been so apt.

There's sweet **** all positive to take from that. We dominated all season and pissed ourselves when it mattered most. Scored 35 points - allowed 38. 3 Deep bombs. A pick 6. Manning rolling out and throwing across his body to cost us the game, Brett Favre style. Having a 3rd and 7 which wins us the game if we convert and we run Hillman into a brick wall for the third straight play. Kneeling at the end of both halves with the ball, 30 seconds odd and timeouts.

Definitely the worst Broncos loss i have witnessed. I honestly don't know how we're ever going to live this down. For all the unreal plays like Thomas's TD, Stokely's TD and Holliday's pair of TDs today, i'll probably file any video evidence of this game alongside Aguero's goal last may in the "Im NEVER EVER watching that" category.

Paully D

Posted in the playoff thread but probably better served in here:

Manning said in his press conference he audibled into that 3rd and 7 run rather than pass late in the 4th quarter and that it's all on him. Wonder if he was just not throwing anybody under the bus by saying that?

Also, here he is 90 minutes after the game seeking out Lewis for a final chat after the game. The man is a class act:

spiralism

Paully D wrote: »

Posted in the playoff thread but probably better served in here:

Manning said in his press conference he audibled into that 3rd and 7 run rather than pass late in the 4th quarter and that it's all on him. Wonder if he was just not throwing anybody under the bus by saying that?

Also, here he is 90 minutes after the game seeking out Lewis for a final chat after the game. The man is a class act:

Please God no...no no no no no. This is on him so. He did that earlier too, 3rd and 5 and he checks into a run by hester which never had a chance. Definitely doesn't help his rep as the NFL's king of the bottlers. A postseason Tony Romo if you will.

poldebruin

spiralism wrote: »

Please God no...no no no no no. This is on him so. He did that earlier too, 3rd and 5 and he checks into a run by hester which never had a chance. Definitely doesn't help his rep as the NFL's king of the bottlers. A postseason Tony Romo if you will.

Get a grip will you. Running it on 3rd and 7 didn't lose the Broncos the game, and you continuing to insist it did is ridiculous. Everyone knew they were going to run there and ask the D to hold.

To compare Manning to Romo is ridiculous too. You're starting to look foolish with this stuff now.

spiralism

poldebruin wrote: »

Get a grip will you. Running it on 3rd and 7 didn't lose the Broncos the game, and you continuing to insist it did is ridiculous. Everyone knew they were going to run there and ask the D to hold.

To compare Manning to Romo is ridiculous too. You're starting to look foolish with this stuff now.

It did though. Manning completes a pass for a first down and it's game over, no two ways about it. Worth the risk by far. Our defence couldn't defend deep plays all day so giving them the ball back was a disaster waiting to happen.

I mean, hypothetically- Manning throws incomplete, they get the ball back with two minutes and score within one...that's a possible game winning drive opportunity with a minute to go and three timeouts

Again, as i quoted from reddit earlier re: Manning:

In the 12 seasons (Manning) made the playoffs he has 11 playoff losses (t-most ever), 5 playoff losses at home (all as the 1, 2, or 3 seed), a game-losing interception in the superbowl, and 8 one-and-dones (remember, out of a possible 12)?
What did you expect when the Broncos signed him? Predicting anything other than one and done from him would be awfully delusional. He makes terrible decisions in the clutch and more often than not loses the first game of the playoffs, even when he's the prohibitive favorite to win.
Those who do not know history...

poldebruin

spiralism wrote: »

It did though. Manning completes a pass for a first down and it's game over, no two ways about it. Worth the risk by far. Our defence couldn't defend deep plays all day so giving them the ball back was a disaster waiting to happen.

I mean, hypothetically- Manning throws incomplete, they get the ball back with two minutes and score within one...that's a possible game winning drive opportunity with a minute to go and three timeouts

Fact is that this is Manning's eighth one + done in the playoffs. He does not have a good record at all in January.

What about the higher possibilty of a sack, fumble or interception on that play, nevermind that it could drop incomplete. The rush might have gotten the first down also, a rush that didn't ate 40 seconds off the clock.

The Ravens had to go 80 odd yards in 60 seconds with no timeouts...a tall order, but they did it thanks to one of the all-time worst defensive plays you will ever see in your life.

Peyton Manning has been to two Superbowls and won one of them. It is supposed to be hard to win in the playoffs.

TO.

spiralism wrote: »

It did though. Manning completes a pass for a first down and it's game over, no two ways about it. Worth the risk by far. Our defence couldn't defend deep plays all day so giving them the ball back was a disaster waiting to happen.

I mean, hypothetically- Manning throws incomplete, they get the ball back with two minutes and score within one...that's a possible game winning drive opportunity with a minute to go and three timeouts

Again, as i quoted from reddit earlier re: Manning:

You are never happy are you? Plenty of development left with the Broncos. Since 2005 the Broncos did fook all. And now in 2 seasons you guys went from a miraculous turn around and made the playoffs to a team who dominated its way into the playoffs. With the right draft and a healthy Manning next the Broncos will be stronger again.

Stop looking for blame and enjoy the success this year and look forward to what comes next season. I hate Elway and Fox with a passion but they are making the right moves right now and are only a couple of draft picks away from making a near complete package.

spiralism

poldebruin wrote: »

What about the higher possibilty of a sack, fumble or interception on that play, nevermind that it could drop incomplete. The rush might have gotten the first down also, a rush that didn't ate 40 seconds off the clock.

The Ravens had to go 80 odd yards in 60 seconds with no timeouts...a tall order, but they did it thanks to one of the all-time worst defensive plays you will ever see in your life.

Peyton Manning has been to two Superbowls and won one of them. It is supposed to be hard to win in the playoffs.

Hence my reasoning. Trust the HOF Quarterback instead of the defence that was a complete joke all day and had already given up 2 huge TDs. This game was just a perfect storm of failure between the Defence, Manning and Fox. All were liable in their own way and it contributed to the picture

Sure, he could take a sack- that burns time the same as the run does. A fumble or INT, worst they do is score a TD and we could get the ball back with longer than 30 seconds.

poldebruin

spiralism wrote: »

In the 12 seasons (Manning) made the playoffs he has 11 playoff losses (t-most ever), 5 playoff losses at home (all as the 1, 2, or 3 seed), a game-losing interception in the superbowl, and 8 one-and-dones (remember, out of a possible 12)?
What did you expect when the Broncos signed him? Predicting anything other than one and done from him would be awfully delusional. He makes terrible decisions in the clutch and more often than not loses the first game of the playoffs, even when he's the prohibitive favorite to win.
Those who do not know history... :

What are you trying to say - that you don't think the Broncos have the right QB in Peyton Manning. In 10 appearances in the playoffs Dan Marino lost 10 times....what does it prove? That Dan Marino was not a good QB?

I'm fairly certain the Colts were losing the game when he threw the int you';re tallking about, it certainly clinched the game for the saints, but was not the reason the colts lost that game.

Why not find yourself another team to give your support to. You're down on them before, during and after every game.

Of course you expect to beat a team at home that you beat easily in their home 3 weeks previously, but that's not the way the NFL works. The Ravens made lots of adjustments from the first game, not least of which was finding a way to protect Flacco all day long.

spiralism

poldebruin wrote: »

What are you trying to say - that you don't think the Broncos have the right QB in Peyton Manning. In 10 appearances in the playoffs Dan Marino lost 10 times....what does it prove? That Dan Marino was not a good QB?

I'm fairly certain the Colts were losing the game when he threw the int you';re tallking about, it certainly clinched the game for the saints, but was not the reason the colts lost that game.

Why not find yourself another team to give your support to. You're down on them before, during and after every game.

Of course you expect to beat a team at home that you beat easily in their home 3 weeks previously, but that's not the way the NFL works. The Ravens made lots of adjustments from the first game, not least of which was finding a way to protect Flacco all day long.

I have high expectations of the team. Given the way they played up to last night and the players we have, i feel it's warranted.

poldebruin

spiralism wrote: »

I have high expectations of the team. Given the way they played up to last night and the players we have, i feel it's warranted.

That's not the impression I get....you're normally predicting all sorts of doom and gloom before games.

In case you're wondering, the Ravens had about a 6% chance of winning the game when Denver punted the ball back to them after the run on 3rd and 7.

Win % chart DEN v BAL

The defence was overrated imo, and playing the likes of SD, OAK and KC twice padded their statisitcs somewhat. They were exposed tonight and couldn't get a stop when they had to.

spiralism

poldebruin wrote: »

That's not the impression I get....you're normally predicting all sorts of doom and gloom before games.

In case you're wondering, the Ravens had about a 6% chance of winning the game when Denver punted the ball back to them after the run on 3rd and 7.

Win % chart DEN v BAL

The defence was overrated imo, and playing the likes of SD, OAK and KC twice padded their statisitcs somewhat. They were exposed tonight and couldn't get a stop when they had to.

The sad thing is i'm often right when im being a miserable bastard. Too used to disappointment with this team, the one season I can look back on and say i enjoyed was the Tebowmania one. Wasn't around for the Superbowls.

That i can buy. Ultimately when we came up against the elite, they scored into the high 20s at least. Defence needs a new CB and a LB or two because DJ Williams and Keith Brooking haven't got it.

PerrinV2

Its the day after and I still can't believe they gave up that final touchdown.
I've only really been watching NFL this year but why was the safety so far up the field?
I thought if they were gonna give up the long pass then the safety would have been there for the tackle,the warning signs were there for the whole game

spiralism

PerrinV2 wrote: »

Its the day after and I still can't believe they gave up that final touchdown.
I've only really been watching NFL this year but why was the safety so far up the field?
I thought if they were gonna give up the long pass then the safety would have been there for the tackle,the warning signs were there for the whole game

Basically, Rahim Moore is terrible.

This is still raw as **** the following morning. I think it'll be a long time before this team lives it down, biggest choke in Broncos history.

davyjose

spiralism wrote: »

Basically, Rahim Moore is terrible.

This is still raw as **** the following morning. I think it'll be a long time before this team lives it down, biggest choke in Broncos history.

That loss was all on Bailey, IMO. Made look like an old man against Torrey Smith, all day long.

spiralism

davyjose wrote: »

That loss was all on Bailey, IMO. Made look like an old man against Torrey Smith, all day long.

Rahim Moore too. I'll never get that image of him trying to play on a ball 5 yards over his head with a man free behind him as long as i live.

And John Fox for being too much of a pussy and getting conservative. Consecutive run plays on 2nd and 3rd and 1 in OT?, run plays on 3rd and 5 and a run on 3rd and 7 when a first down wins the game? That useless wimp can **** off, this generation's Marty Schottenheimer.

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

Rahim Moore too. I'll never get that image of him trying to play on a ball 5 yards over his head with a man free behind him as long as i live.

And John Fox for being too much of a pussy and getting conservative. Consecutive run plays on 2nd and 3rd and 1 in OT?, run plays on 3rd and 5 and a run on 3rd and 7 when a first down wins the game? That useless wimp can **** off, this generation's Marty Schottenheimer.

Manning came out and said he changed the play from a pass to a run with an audible on the 3rd and 7. You cant blame Fox on that.

You trust your QB to read the coverage and make the necesary adjustments if needed.

Who knows what was called on the OT runs.

spiralism

D3PO wrote: »

Manning came out and said he changed the play from a pass to a run with an audible on the 3rd and 7. You cant blame Fox on that.

You trust your QB to read the coverage and make the necesary adjustments if needed.

Who knows what was called on the OT runs.

True actually, meant to edit that when i thought back on it...though there's a good chance he's deflecting blame. Doesn't say a lot for Peyton's decision making in the playoffs though if its true. They were selling out on the run badly, call a play action, it worked for Schaub against Cincinnati a week ago in exactly the same scenario.

Id land a large wager on Fox having called the two runs in OT at least, he's extremely conservative after all.

Jolly Red Giant

I have to say that I am gutted the Broncos lost - and particularly in the manner they lost last night.

The Bronocs should have won the game - Scoring 35 points on your own turf should be enough to win any game.

There were a few individual plays that cost us the game - but some of the criticism on here is over the top.

John Fox is a conservative coach - every Broncos fan knows this - we knew it when he took over and we knew it when he told Manning to take a knee with 31 seconds and two timeouts left.

Champ Baily is an All-Pro Cornerback - even the best players do have off games - Bailey had one last night. Yes he has lost a step - but he makes up for that in smarts - and he is a very smart player.

Rahim Moore made a mistake - a big one - he knows it and he will learn from it. His improvement over this season is one of the reasons the Broncos defence has played so well. Moore will continue to grow and will be a good safety for many years to come.

The defence as a whole played poorly giving up 38 points - they didn't get enough pressure on Flacco, they didn't tackle like they had been all season and they gave up big plays which they had not done most of the season either. They know this and with Del Rio they will work to fix it.

This Broncos defence has improved immeasurably since last season - with few changes - they drafted Wolfe and signed Adams - but lost DJ Williams and got little from Porter because of concussion. Del Rio has done a remarkable job turning around this defence. Another draft and free agency and it will be even better next season.

When Manning signed in August, most thinking Broncos fans knew that the Broncos were two years away from being a potential superbowl team. While we hoped and believed during the regular season that the Broncos could defy that prediction - last night proved it to be accurate.

Next season will see Manning at full health (it was half way through the season before he began performing properly). Next season will see Decker and Thomas take a big step forward after their lost year with Tebow. Next season will see Von Miller become the complete defensive player (not that he has far to go). Next season will see the further maturity of the likes of Harris, Carter, Wolfe, Beadles, Walton etc. This Broncos team is a team that is progressing, that is moving forward and that is re-establishing itself among the elite of the NFL after a decade in the doldrums of mediocrity and a two year disaster trying to do it the Patriot way. The team, the coaches and the front office deserve nothing but praise for their efforts this season.

kinnikinnik5

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

I have to say that I am gutted the Broncos lost - and particularly in the manner they lost last night.

The Bronocs should have won the game - Scoring 35 points on your own turf should be enough to win any game.

There were a few individual plays that cost us the game - but some of the criticism on here is over the top.

John Fox is a conservative coach - every Broncos fan knows this - we knew it when he took over and we knew it when he told Manning to take a knee with 31 seconds and two timeouts left.

Champ Baily is an All-Pro Cornerback - even the best players do have off games - Bailey had one last night. Yes he has lost a step - but he makes up for that in smarts - and he is a very smart player.

Rahim Moore made a mistake - a big one - he knows it and he will learn from it. His improvement over this season is one of the reasons the Broncos defence has played so well. Moore will continue to grow and will be a good safety for many years to come.

The defence as a whole played poorly giving up 38 points - they didn't get enough pressure on Flacco, they didn't tackle like they had been all season and they gave up big plays which they had not done most of the season either. They know this and with Del Rio they will work to fix it.

This Broncos defence has improved immeasurably since last season - with few changes - they drafted Wolfe and signed Adams - but lost DJ Williams and got little from Porter because of concussion. Del Rio has done a remarkable job turning around this defence. Another draft and free agency and it will be even better next season.

When Manning signed in August, most thinking Broncos fans knew that the Broncos were two years away from being a potential superbowl team. While we hoped and believed during the regular season that the Broncos could defy that prediction - last night proved it to be accurate.

Next season will see Manning at full health (it was half way through the season before he began performing properly). Next season will see Decker and Thomas take a big step forward after their lost year with Tebow. Next season will see Von Miller become the complete defensive player (not that he has far to go). Next season will see the further maturity of the likes of Harris, Carter, Wolfe, Beadles, Walton etc. This Broncos team is a team that is progressing, that is moving forward and that is re-establishing itself among the elite of the NFL after a decade in the doldrums of mediocrity and a two year disaster trying to do it the Patriot way. The team, the coaches and the front office deserve nothing but praise for their efforts this season.

This is how we should all be looking at the Broncos. The Broncos loss was disappointing, and served as an example of how and where they need to improve. At the end of the day the Broncos are a good team that has a lot of potential. This was a one game sample that the Broncos unfortunately lost. I still think the Broncos should have beat the Raven's but I think the Broncos would have had a tough time with either the Patriots or the 49ers. Would anyone trade it for the 4-12 suckfest of 2010? Broncos fans should stick together and not lash out at each other after the games we lose. That's what Raider's fans do. Lets hope for the last bit of improvement needed to finally win the superbowl next year.

PokeHerKing

Jesus, still so sick after that loss. So disappointing after the start we made but the D just couldn't get it together, Manning had his moments as well but Id mostly put it on the D. Also, taking a knee with 30 seconds and 2 timeouts left was a complete joke!

Ill fake enthusiasm through the rest of the games and would love to see Ray go on and grab the second ring he deserves but knowing I've to wait 8 months to see the Broncos again is enough to bring a tear to my eye.

I'm still way more optimistic for the future than some fans but I understand the initial emotional knee jerk reactions.

I'm convinced that before Mannings time is up at Mile High he'll have brought home the big one!

davyjose

PokeHerKing wrote: »

Jesus, still so sick after that loss. So disappointing after the start we made but the D just couldn't get it together, Manning had his moments as well but Id mostly put it on the D. Also, taking a knee with 30 seconds and 2 timeouts left was a complete joke!

Ill fake enthusiasm through the rest of the games and would love to see Ray go on and grab the second ring he deserves but knowing I've to wait 8 months to see the Broncos again is enough to bring a tear to my eye.

I'm still way more optimistic for the future than some fans but I understand the initial emotional knee jerk reactions.

I'm convinced that before Mannings time is up at Mile High he'll have brought home the big one!

Not to be a downer, but I was pretty convinced a second ring was on the way at Indy, only to see very similar outcomes to what happened on saturday. We had a similar loss against San Diego in '07 with their back up playing at QB, and LT not 100% fit. A game we should have dominated, but Cromartie owned Manning that day.
I thought this year they'd maybe lose to New England or else win it all. It just adds more weight to the argument that Manning seems to come unstuck in tight Playoff games.
This just looks too similar to what happened in Indy year after year. And I too am gutted for Peyton.

Syferus

If you guys want to start winning playoff games again I bet the Jets could be convinced to trade you Tebow for Manning if you throw in a few draft picks..

PokeHerKing

davyjose wrote: »

Not to be a downer, but I was pretty convinced a second ring was on the way at Indy, only to see very similar outcomes to what happened on saturday. We had a similar loss against San Diego in '07 with their back up playing at QB, and LT not 100% fit. A game we should have dominated, but Cromartie owned Manning that day.
I thought this year they'd maybe lose to New England or else win it all. It just adds more weight to the argument that Manning seems to come unstuck in tight Playoff games.
This just looks too similar to what happened in Indy year after year. And I too am gutted for Peyton.

As far as I'm concerned Trindon Holliday and Manning had the game won, the defence let Baltimore go 70 yards in about 10 seconds. Super Bowls are hard to come by, just ask Dan Marino.

Ill take manning all day, I remember when we couldn't buy a win.

rockonollie

Football Gods say NO!!!!

I told my wife that the Broncos were going to lose the game as soon as Manning took a knee to run out the 4th quarter......you just don't do that, not in the playoffs.

kinnikinnik5

Syferus wrote: »

If you guys want to start winning playoff games again I bet the Jets could be convinced to trade you Tebow for Manning if you throw in a few draft picks..

I'm sure Tebow will win a few more games than Peyton . . . in the CFL. As for the Broncos hopefully they use this like the loss to the Jaguars in '96. They will be ok.