Denver Broncos Thread

mikemac

That's a godawful draft record

When you look at what the Steelers and Ravens manage and go about their business quietly the record looks even worse

The value pick I liked was Perrish Cox, a real steal in the fifth. Some great play and I thought he'd be in the league for the next decade
The Broncos are cursed, he threw away his career

spiralism

mikemac wrote: »

That's a godawful draft record

When you look at what the Steelers and Ravens manage and go about their business quietly the record looks even worse

The value pick I liked was Perrish Cox, a real steal in the fifth. Some great play and I thought he'd be in the league for the next decade
The Broncos are cursed, he threw away his career

i was sickened, he looked very good in his play time last year and he does that, disgusted. Don't be surprised if he ends up with the Bengals when he gets back out of jail though, he's pretty good.

We are cursed, notably since plummer left... Denver's answer to the curse of bobby layne - the curse of jake plummer?

spiralism

From the broncos boards, quality analysis of the situation imo:

Its funny...the media claims its Tebowmania that has swept the nation. However, in reality its Ortonmania that has swept the media. As a result of this, sheep, many of them Broncos fans, have been infected and are constantly regurgitating the same nonsense that glorifies Orton and without no legitimate empirical evidence, declares him as the "QB that gives us the best chance to win."

Well lets objectively debunk this claim together starting with the most popular nonsense that is spewed out in support of this baseless claim. (notice how most of these focus around attacking Tebow rather than actually providing evidence for Orton).

1. "If Tebow is so good, why couldn't he beat out Orton in practice? Who are you to claim you know more than Coaches and Staff?"


First of all, let me remind everyone of a little secret that we all ironically seem to forget all the time given the past couple years. Front Offices, all around the NFL, all throughout the NFL's history MAKE MISTAKES on player evaluations ALL THE TIME.

If Bledsoe doesn't go down would Brady ever gotten a shot? If Kolb doesn't go down would Vick ever really gotten a shot? Vince Young was benched in favor of "pocket passer" Kerry Collins. The Titans went 0-6 until finally Collins was benched. VY led the same exact team the rest of the year to an 8-2 record, nearly making history. Jay Cutler was traded in favor of Kyle Orton. Jamarcus Russell. These are all just coming off the top of my head. My point is, the examples are countless.

Second of all, as the great Allen Iverson said, "are we really talkin bout practice?" Yes, practice is important. It is preparation for the big stage. However practice is an entirely different environment than the big stage. It is impossible to simulate. Bottom line is, if you can't get it done on the big stage, practice means nothing. Might as well be on the practice squad if that's your only strong point. (5-22) in the last 27 games is not exactly what I would call a gamer. In reality, due to his abysmal big stage performance, all Orton's practice heroics are meaningless.

2. "Tebow is not ready"

According to what? it can't be his above average performance in the 3 regular season games last year. It can't be his 108 passer rating this preseason. What evidence is being used as the basis of this argument? If practice is the answer, see number 1.

Additionally, we've all seen Elway's, or Vick's, or Manning's, first year numbers. Why isn't Tim given the same opportunity to make mistakes and grow? Why is Cam Newton, who played much more poorly in preseason than Tebow has played, being given a shot to make mistakes and grow? Why is Andy Dalton? Why is Colt Mccoy?

The funny thing is Tim really hasn't messed up that bad in any of his outings as some of those mentioned above have. I can't imagine the hate that will be thrown at him if he turns in a bad game like Elway did his rookie year. The fact that he hasn't in spite of all of the hate speaks to his mental toughness.


Lastly, and here is the ultimate question to those infected with Ortonmania, name one journeyman, 7th year Quarterback in the history of the NFL that went 5-19 (or whatever it is) in his last 24 games on a rebuilding team with 3 young Quarterbacks that was still given a chance as well as such high praise and support by the media. Name one. Alex Smith? Surprisingly Smith's record is still better than Orton's in the last 24, and he didn't have 2 young high potential QB's behind him. Other than Smith, who?

The whole "Orton gives us the best chance to win" is regurgitated by Ortonmania without any objective support. I have never seen a team with a comparable rebuilding situation as ours ever go to such a length to start an aging journeyman quarterback who has proven nothing year after year while a group of young qb's with potential rot on the bench.

couldn't have put it better myself

Le King

That's a good post. Orton isn't getting the Bronco's anywhere. At least Tebow can have his shot and then you know you where you stand.

I also don't think Orton has that comeback ability, he lacks clutch ability. I'm not saying Tebow is the answer, as I have said before. But the Bronco's are in for a long year with him there. To blame him for all their problems is ignorant.

Serious work needs to happen with this team, otherwise you can put John Elway (in his prime!) back in there and it won't make a difference. But Orton isn't going to take this team forward.

Chucky the tree

3 above average games last season? He must have been watching a complete different Tim Tebow to the one who was actually playing.

tallaghtoutlaws

Its funny...the media claims its Tebowmania that has swept the nation. However, in reality its Ortonmania that has swept the media. As a result of this, sheep, many of them Broncos fans, have been infected and are constantly regurgitating the same nonsense that glorifies Orton and without no legitimate empirical evidence, declares him as the "QB that gives us the best chance to win.

Oh yeah because all of us that don't agree with Tebow lovers and Broncos fans obviously form our opinions due to the media. The Irony in this paragraph alone is hilarious

Well lets objectively debunk this claim together starting with the most popular nonsense that is spewed out in support of this baseless claim. (notice how most of these focus around attacking Tebow rather than actually providing evidence for Orton).

Plenty have provided evidence but Bronco fans are refusing to see it or hear it.

1. "If Tebow is so good, why couldn't he beat out Orton in practice? Who are you to claim you know more than Coaches and Staff?"


First of all, let me remind everyone of a little secret that we all ironically seem to forget all the time given the past couple years. Front Offices, all around the NFL, all throughout the NFL's history MAKE MISTAKES on player evaluations ALL THE TIME.

Oh the Irony Broncos fans trying to discredit the front staff and coaches in aid of helping their own opinions as the right one.

If Bledsoe doesn't go down would Brady ever gotten a shot? If Kolb doesn't go down would Vick ever really gotten a shot? Vince Young was benched in favor of "pocket passer" Kerry Collins. The Titans went 0-6 until finally Collins was benched. VY led the same exact team the rest of the year to an 8-2 record, nearly making history. Jay Cutler was traded in favor of Kyle Orton. Jamarcus Russell. These are all just coming off the top of my head. My point is, the examples are countless.

hahahahahaha the fail in this paragraph is hilarious and irrelevant. No comparision and totally different examples all together. Again another attempt to climb out of a hole.

Second of all, as the great Allen Iverson said, "are we really talkin bout practice?" Yes, practice is important. It is preparation for the big stage. However practice is an entirely different environment than the big stage. It is impossible to simulate. Bottom line is, if you can't get it done on the big stage, practice means nothing. Might as well be on the practice squad if that's your only strong point. (5-22) in the last 27 games is not exactly what I would call a gamer. In reality, due to his abysmal big stage performance, all Orton's practice heroics are meaningless.

Oh now I see where the practice isn't important comes from your posts spiralism

2. "Tebow is not ready"

According to what? it can't be his above average performance in the 3 regular season games last year. It can't be his 108 passer rating this preseason. What evidence is being used as the basis of this argument? If practice is the answer, see number 1.

According to the guys who pick the team i.e the Coaches after they pick the team.

Additionally, we've all seen Elway's, or Vick's, or Manning's, first year numbers. Why isn't Tim given the same opportunity to make mistakes and grow? Why is Cam Newton, who played much more poorly in preseason than Tebow has played, being given a shot to make mistakes and grow? Why is Andy Dalton? Why is Colt Mccoy?

All of these examples are a pointless example of a comparision also. All of the QBs mentioned here were drafted to start right away. Coaches decided to take a chance on these guys but the important part is drafted to start. Tebow was drafted as a project by McDaniels who wait for it is gonzo.

Lastly, and here is the ultimate question to those infected with Ortonmania, name one journeyman, 7th year Quarterback in the history of the NFL that went 5-19 (or whatever it is) in his last 24 games on a rebuilding team with 3 young Quarterbacks that was still given a chance as well as such high praise and support by the media. Name one. Alex Smith? Surprisingly Smith's record is still better than Orton's in the last 24, and he didn't have 2 young high potential QB's behind him. Other than Smith, who?

The whole "Orton gives us the best chance to win" is regurgitated by Ortonmania without any objective support. I have never seen a team with a comparable rebuilding situation as ours ever go to such a length to start an aging journeyman quarterback who has proven nothing year after year while a group of young qb's with potential rot on the bench.

As for this Ortonmania nonsense lets not forget that these same people got bought in by Tebowmania and are only fighting this because of Tebow and the hype he brought with him.

Once again this shows the nonsense that is Broncos fans right now. If you have an opinion against them and Tebow all of a sudden you are sheep following the media. And in their own bias way they discredit people's opinion using irrelevent fact and bad comparisons.

Have to say Im loving all of this tebow/Orton nonsense. Broncos fans are becoming the new Eagles fans. Funny one of my buddies in Philly asked me today what I thought of the Broncos faithfull trying so hard to be Philly fans.

spiralism

Chucky the tree wrote: »

3 above average games last season? He must have been watching a complete different Tim Tebow to the one who was actually playing.

seeing as Passer rating is the real stat with which to measure a QBs performance as opposed to how tight his spiral was, his throwing motion and such like:

Passer rating @ Oakland : 100.5
Passer rating vs Houston: 89.4
Passer rating vs SD: 58

Total offensive TDs scored:7

Putting the so called "mendoza line" of QB rating at 80, the only game he played bad in was San Diego, and even still had a lot of positives to his game
Rushing TD in each game too, so the game he lost to SD and was bad in, he still even put 21 points on the board

Ortons last 3 starts, FWIW:

Passer rating vs Oakland: 72.1
Passer rating @ Arizona: 27.1
Passer rating @ Kansas: 46.3

Total offensive TDs: 1

says it all, say all you want about his throwing motion or that he doesn't throw a tight spiral, even the stats are evidence here.

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

says it all, say all you want about his throwing motion or that he doesn't throw a tight spiral, even the stats are evidence here.

Stats are not evidence of his throwing motion :rolleyes: He has an awkward throwing motion. What it means is if being rushed he wont have time to throw it with his style, add that to his footwork in his drop backs the concerns were he is too slow and it is evident in his play regardless of stats. Don't know where the spiral problem came from dont think that was ever one of the issues. Plenty of NFL QBs with loose spirals. You notice in the last 3 games of last season he played mainly out of gun right? Of course not as your blinkers are on.

spiralism

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Stats are not evidence of his throwing motion :rolleyes: He has an awkward throwing motion. What it means is if being rushed he wont have time to throw it with his style, add that to his footwork in his drop backs the concerns were he is too slow and it is evident in his play regardless of stats. Don't know where the spiral problem came from dont think that was ever one of the issues. Plenty of NFL QBs with loose spirals. You notice in the last 3 games of last season he played mainly out of gun right? Of course not as your blinkers are on.

tongue in cheek mate.

Ok, different approach so. what has he got to do to be good in your eyes?

fwiw, regarding the under pressure argument on a throwing motion, he did ok against Oakland didnt he? as seen in our last 3 encounters with them, they're pretty good at bringing pressure

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

tongue in cheek mate.

Ok, different approach so. what has he got to do to be good in your eyes?

Get proper bench time without the pressure in the background. He needs time to fix the kinks and do what every other Rookie QB does when they join a team with a starter already there. But Josh McDaniels has put Denver in this mess by taking him in the first round, Add that to you Bronco fans marking Orton as the goat and truly buying into Tebowmania or hype or whatever you want to call it he will struggle to fix his kinks.

The sad part is he could be a decent QB in the NFL but with the pressure there and the epic failure that is Denver Fans and Denver themselves I don't see Tebow ever doing well in the NFL unless he leaves to find a program who will work with him. Lets face it Fox and Elway dont want Tebow and even if Orton fails Broncos will draft a start next season that suits Fox/Elway model.

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

fwiw, regarding the under pressure argument on a throwing motion, he did ok against Oakland didnt he? as seen in our last 3 encounters with them, they're pretty good at bringing pressure

His 40 yard TD run he was in the gun and his oline made perfect blocks to his outside leaving him a huge hole up the middle. His deep pass to Lloyd he had plenty of time in the pocket. As slow as his dropback was there was no pressure at all on him by the Raiders giving him time to find Lloyd 1 on 1.

But other than that Lloyd long catch his most effective plays were when he was in the gun and you have more time in the pocket and can see the rush coming. He would be well used to it as Florida had him in the gun.

But I tell you though Lloyd made some crazy ass catches in that game including that TD.

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

seeing as Passer rating is the real stat with which to measure a QBs performance as opposed to how tight his spiral was, his throwing motion and such like:

Passer rating @ Oakland : 100.5
Passer rating vs Houston: 89.4
Passer rating vs SD: 58

Total offensive TDs scored:7

Putting the so called "mendoza line" of QB rating at 80, the only game he played bad in was San Diego, and even still had a lot of positives to his game
Rushing TD in each game too, so the game he lost to SD and was bad in, he still even put 21 points on the board

Ortons last 3 starts, FWIW:

Passer rating vs Oakland: 72.1
Passer rating @ Arizona: 27.1
Passer rating @ Kansas: 46.3

Total offensive TDs: 1

says it all, say all you want about his throwing motion or that he doesn't throw a tight spiral, even the stats are evidence here.

I really have no idea where you get that idea. If the guy can't do the basics of being a nfl QB he won't last a season. You can look at his stats and go "wow" all you want but anyone who's watched him play in those game will realise the guy is miles behind what is required to be a QB for a full season. One big problem is Broncos can't run the ball so the play-action is really not an option for them so that leaves Tebow up **** creek as he can't do much else. Do you really think Orton doesn't make that throw to a wide open Lloyd against Chargers? Against the Raiders he threw 1 TD and 138 yards during a full game, yes the rating looks fantastic but how games will teams win with 138 yards of passing while having no rushing game?

No doubt Tebow rushing ability, Broncos could also give him snaps instead the 10 or something but he's very poor before that. Completed 50% of his passes last year, that's shocking and you won't win many games with that.

mikemac

Passer rating is overrated

You could throw checkdowns to your running back all day and lots of short dinky passes and clock up a huge passer rating.

But miss the wide open receivers downfield because you don't the ability or the confidence to take a shot downfield. Captain Checkdown, isn't that what the Browns fans called Brady Quinn?

Tis a shame he didn't land in a situation like Matt Flynn or Brian Hoyer or even Ryan Mallett.

Giving up a second, third and fourth was madness.

On a way offtopic note, I'm realy impressed with Brian Hoyer, he'll get a shot in the league someday though I don't know where

eagle eye

Whats actually amazing is that he got much better protection than Orton got last year. I think thats down to his ability to lead and as I've said before his intangibles cannot be underestimated. Even that time he got them in front in one of those games and runs up to the D which you never see a QB do and then they go out and pick the ball kinda just shows what a great leader can do for a team.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

Whats actually amazing is that he got much better protection than Orton got last year. I think thats down to his ability to lead and as I've said before his intangibles cannot be underestimated. Even that time he got them in front in one of those games and runs up to the D which you never see a QB do and then they go out and pick the ball kinda just shows what a great leader can do for a team.

Absolute nonsense. He was sacked 5 times over the 3 games and had it not been for his feet there would have been more. Also don't forget last 3 games of the season and all 3 teams they played were out of the playoff race so the games were for pride.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. He was sacked 5 times over the 3 games and had it not been for his feet there would have been more. Also don't forget last 3 games of the season and all 3 teams they played were out of the playoff race so the games were for pride.

So tell us then, what was Orton's average sacks per game over the season? I think 5 times in 3 games is will below the average for Orton. But of course you try and cover yourself there with nonsense. All of those teams were in playoff contention when they met Denver.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

So tell us then, what was Orton's average sacks per game over the season? I think 5 times in 3 games is will below the average for Orton. But of course you try and cover yourself there with nonsense. All of those teams were in playoff contention when they met Denver.

5 sacks plus whatever Tebow avoided with his feet. Those 3 games had the same protection Orton had simple as. When the O-line couldn't protect Tebow he was trying to move by foot. Just watch the games again. Also Orton played 90% of his games under centre for the majority, When Tebow took over he was in the gun. Makes a huge difference to to what does and doesn't look like pressure. Tebows intangibles had nothing to do with it. Stop trying to make out his messiah nonsense is making him a better option than Orton.

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

Whats actually amazing is that he got much better protection than Orton got last year. I think thats down to his ability to lead and as I've said before his intangibles cannot be underestimated. Even that time he got them in front in one of those games and runs up to the D which you never see a QB do and then they go out and pick the ball kinda just shows what a great leader can do for a team.

As for his ability to lead, if he was such a good leader and so good and inspiring his defence how did Denver ship 39 points against Raiders, 23 against Texans and 33 and Chargers?

eagle eye wrote: »

So tell us then, what was Orton's average sacks per game over the season? I think 5 times in 3 games is will below the average for Orton. But of course you try and cover yourself there with nonsense. All of those teams were in playoff contention when they met Denver.

He was sacked 6 times in 3 games. Also, only 1 of those teams were in play-off contention when they meet. Takes some balls to accuse of someone else talking about nonsense. :pac:

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

All of those teams were in playoff contention when they met Denver.

Chargers were the only team fighting for the playoffs and even then they needed other results to go their way. And guess what the Chargers won the game and sacked Tebow 3 times and picked him off twice.

So again you want to talk nonsense keep it up but the way I see it the Chargers playoff hopes were in the hand of others and they made Tebow look average at best. This was the worst of his 3 games.

So you keep digging holes with your Tebow man love.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

He was sacked 6 times in 3 games. Also, only 1 of those teams were in play-off contention when they meet. Takes some balls to accuse of someone else talking about nonsense. :pac:

Thanks for noticing the 6th sack 6 is defo better than the 5.

Chucky the tree

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

Chargers were the only team fighting for the playoffs and even then they needed other results to go their way. And guess what the Chargers won the game and sacked Tebow 3 times and picked him off twice.

So again you want to talk nonsense keep it up but the way I see it the Chargers playoff hopes were in the hand of others and they made Tebow look average at best. This was the worst of his 3 games.

So you keep digging holes with your Tebow man love.

Chargers were out of play-off contention in the last game of the season. Oaklad were the only team who had play-offs hopes when they played Denver with three games to go.

tallaghtoutlaws

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Chargers were out of play-off contention in the last game of the season. Oaklad were the only team who had play-offs hopes when they played Denver with three games to go.

Thanks for clearing that up. Makes the Tebow argument look even worse. I thought it was the Chargers when I looked at the tables but never thought of looking at the Raiders with 3 games to go.

LuckyLloyd

Hot damn, Orton got the job done despite a pretty weak team taking the field last night huh?

Chucky the tree

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hot damn, Orton got the job done despite a pretty weak team taking the field last night huh?

pfft. Clearly the win was down to Tebows motivational pre-game and half-time speeches.

spiralism

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hot damn, Orton got the job done despite a pretty weak team taking the field last night huh?

watch the game? he did decent but the entire 4th quarter he was giving me palpatations, fumbling deep in our own half when up 5 points and consistent 3 and outs. No blame on the run game either yesterday, we ran for 133 with mcgahee putting up 101. Nothing amazing from orton but the run game and a better than expected outing from the defence meant we held on. Fox ball for ya.

For what it's worth, Marv Lewis turned down a potentially game winning 53 yard FG and went for it on 4th down in the 4th quarter, which we stopped..

Thats the problem with orton, you see. He's seriously ineffective in the 4th quarter and when the game is within 7 points on either side

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

Nothing amazing from orton but the run game and a better than expected outing from the defence meant we held on. Fox ball for ya.
Thats the problem with orton, you see. He's seriously ineffective in the 4th quarter and when the game is within 7 points on either side

AH FFS are you for real ? Maybe the fact your recieving corps so so banged up that Tebow lined up at reciever due to you being down to 3 suited up recievers might have something to do with that ????

Half the playbook was gone due to the lack of recieving options and he still managed to do enough to win. You need to take the blinkers off he did a hell of a job to get the W yesterday.

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

Thats the problem with orton, you see. He's seriously ineffective in the 4th quarter and when the game is within 7 points on either side

yeah because it was nothing to do with the fact that a Rookie QB was able to throw for over 300 yards with 66% completion rate and felt no pressure all game agasint the Broncos D :rolleyes:

Chucky the tree

spiralism wrote: »

watch the game? he did decent but the entire 4th quarter he was giving me palpatations, fumbling deep in our own half when up 5 points and consistent 3 and outs. No blame on the run game either yesterday, we ran for 133 with mcgahee putting up 101. Nothing amazing from orton but the run game and a better than expected outing from the defence meant we held on. Fox ball for ya.

For what it's worth, Marv Lewis turned down a potentially game winning 53 yard FG and went for it on 4th down in the 4th quarter, which we stopped..

Thats the problem with orton, you see. He's seriously ineffective in the 4th quarter and when the game is within 7 points on either side

That's what you need to make Orton and your team win. Solid run game, semi decent defense. Orton's a smart QB who will rarely make stupid throws and risk silly turn overs. That's huge in the nfl. Last season Orton make 498 attempts and had 9 interceptions, while Tebow attempted 80 passes and had three. Turnovers kill teams in the nfl. Even this season in the 71 passes Orton has tried he's only had 1 int.

Also, you're better off going into the 4th quarter winning with Orton then losing like you have been with Tebow.

mikemac

spiralism wrote: »

For what it's worth, Marv Lewis turned down a potentially game winning 53 yard FG and went for it on 4th down in the 4th quarter, which we stopped..

I've gone back to watch this on Gamepass just now

Bengals in their opponents half on the 47.

First and ten, long pass incomplete to Jerome Simson
Second and ten, Dalton sacked for a nine yard loss
Third and nineteen, Dalton incomplete pass intended for Jermaine Gresham
Fourth and nineteen, Dalton incomplete pass intended for AJ Green

So you're saying Marvin Lewis turned down a game winning field goal from the 47? That's an incredible field goal and longer then Mike Nugents career longest.
Granted, Denver is different to other stadiums with the altitude.

And with the sack, the Bengals had no option but to go for it on fourth down.

Were we watching the same game?
You make it sound like Marvin Lewis was incompetent.

They were not in FG range to begin with and the sack knocked them back into their own half

D3PO

mikemac wrote: »

I've gone back to watch this on Gamepass just now

Bengals in their opponents half on the 47.

First and ten, long pass incomplete to Jerome Simson
Second and ten, Dalton sacked for a nine yard loss
Third and nineteen, Dalton incomplete pass intended for Jermaine Gresham
Fourth and nineteen, Dalton incomplete pass intended for AJ Green

So you're saying Marvin Lewis turned down a game winning field goal from the 47? That's an incredible field goal and longer then Mike Nugents career longest.
Granted, Denver is different to other stadiums with the altitude.

And with the sack, the Bengals had no option but to go for it on fourth down.

Were we watching the same game?
You make it sound like Marvin Lewis was incompetent.

They were not in FG range to begin with and the sack knocked them back into their own half

Exactly that would have been an NFL record 64 yard field goal prior to the sack. No HC is going to go for that on first down if he could make it closer. The sack on second ended any hopes of that.

Hes twisting things to make them fit his argument.

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

watch the game? he did decent but the entire 4th quarter he was giving me palpatations, fumbling deep in our own half when up 5 points and consistent 3 and outs. No blame on the run game either yesterday, we ran for 133 with mcgahee putting up 101. Nothing amazing from orton but the run game and a better than expected outing from the defence meant we held on. Fox ball for ya.

:rolleyes: That fumble was out of his hand. He was about to pull the trigger and the ball was knocked out of his hand. Nothing he or any QB can do about that. Hardly his fault.

The proof is in the picture. Nothing Orton could have done about this:

spiralism

D3PO wrote: »

AH FFS are you for real ? Maybe the fact your recieving corps so so banged up that Tebow lined up at reciever due to you being down to 3 suited up recievers might have something to do with that ????

Half the playbook was gone due to the lack of recieving options and he still managed to do enough to win. You need to take the blinkers off he did a hell of a job to get the W yesterday.

No credit to Mcgahee for a great game and the shorthanded Defence for several great stops despite being gassed? I'm just saying it's ignorant to say orton won us that game himself, he did enough, fair play to him.

Delighted with the win though

spiralism

mikemac wrote: »

I've gone back to watch this on Gamepass just now

Bengals in their opponents half on the 47.

First and ten, long pass incomplete to Jerome Simson
Second and ten, Dalton sacked for a nine yard loss
Third and nineteen, Dalton incomplete pass intended for Jermaine Gresham
Fourth and nineteen, Dalton incomplete pass intended for AJ Green

So you're saying Marvin Lewis turned down a game winning field goal from the 47? That's an incredible field goal and longer then Mike Nugents career longest.
Granted, Denver is different to other stadiums with the altitude.

And with the sack, the Bengals had no option but to go for it on fourth down.

Were we watching the same game?
You make it sound like Marvin Lewis was incompetent.

They were not in FG range to begin with and the sack knocked them back into their own half

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011091812/2011/REG2/bengals@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=recap
second one that plays, entitled "Denver stops cincinnati on 4th and 1". 4th and 1, 36 yard line which adds up to around 50ish yards for the FG

tallaghtoutlaws

spiralism wrote: »

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011091812/2011/REG2/bengals@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=recap
second one that plays, entitled "Denver stops cincinnati on 4th and 1". 4th and 1, 36 yard line which adds up to around 50ish yards for the FG

39 yard line is a 53 yard Field Goal.

tallaghtoutlaws

For what its worth Mike Nugent is 5-13 in Field Goals 50+ yards.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

For what its worth Mike Nugent is 5-13 in Field Goals 50+ yards.

And 2 from 4 last year.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

And 2 from 4 last year.

5-13 career and 2-4 last year obviously not enough in the eyes of the Bungals coaches to trust him with a 53 yard possible winning kick. Besides Nugent is hardly a clutch kicker. He has had his ups and downs. And a 53 yard kick is never a given for any kicker.

eagle eye

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

5-13 career and 2-4 last year obviously not enough in the eyes of the Bungals coaches to trust him with a 53 yard possible winning kick. Besides Nugent is hardly a clutch kicker. He has had his ups and downs. And a 53 yard kick is never a given for any kicker.

Agree completely. I think the chances of being successful on a 4th and 1 are a lot higher than 50%, might be wrong about that but I'd be very surprised if I was.

tallaghtoutlaws

eagle eye wrote: »

Agree completely. I think the chances of being successful on a 4th and 1 are a lot higher than 50%, might be wrong about that but I'd be very surprised if I was.

Decided to look at Nugents 40-49 yard kicks and honestly I would never trust this guy to win any game for me:

21-31 career and 1-3 last season.

Seems he far too hit and miss and I can see why the Bengals wouldn't put that pressure on him knowing there is at least a 50% chance he would miss. Seems like taking a shot downfield was a better option.

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

D3PO wrote: »

AH FFS are you for real ? Maybe the fact your recieving corps so so banged up that Tebow lined up at reciever due to you being down to 3 suited up recievers might have something to do with that ????

Half the playbook was gone due to the lack of recieving options and he still managed to do enough to win. You need to take the blinkers off he did a hell of a job to get the W yesterday.

No credit to Mcgahee for a great game and the shorthanded Defence for several great stops despite being gassed? I'm just saying it's ignorant to say orton won us that game himself, he did enough, fair play to him.

Delighted with the win though

Did I say orton won the game On his own ? sorry chief but your the ignorant one for not recognising who is the guy most likely to deliver wins in Denver right now.

This years broncos have so many holes on defence and on the oline that honestly any wins are going to come by clever game management. That's orton he is clearly the best chance of winning games there and to be honest even then if they win 4 I'd be shocked

spiralism

D3PO wrote: »

Did I say orton won the game On his own ? sorry chief but your the ignorant one for not recognising who is the guy most likely to deliver wins in Denver right now.

This years broncos have so many holes on defence and on the oline that honestly any wins are going to come by clever game management. That's orton he is clearly the best chance of winning games there and to be honest even then if they win 4 I'd be shocked

i'd put us anywhere in the 4-6 bracket yeah(think about it, kansas twice, Miami at home, buffalo towards the end of the season, minnesota are games we could look reasonably at as having a shot in) hence my earlier argument for Tebow, i dont care if we suck initially if it means success down the line, as opposed to settling for mediocrity and many an 8-8 season in the future. I actually think we have far less holes on the Defence than last year when we get everybody fit, fwiw. Fox is easily twice the coach JmcD is, but that goes without saying....

I think that if Tebow actually turned out to be alright we could be a very good side in a season or two. If we stick with orton in the long run we wont go much further than 9-7ish, he couldnt manage any more than that on a bears team that was far more complete than what we're putting out.

We should dust off the aul playbooks from last season and bring back the wildcat package we had designed for Tebow if you ask me, seeing as orton is probably not moving from starter this year, whether i like it or not. It did the job when we used it last year!

D3PO

spiralism wrote: »

, i dont care if we suck initially if it means success down the line, !

you dont but Fox does. His job is on the line. Like Ive said before this is a win now league.

If your John Fox and you think Orton can deliver a 6-10 season and Tebow might get you a 4-12 season then you go with Orton.

As a fan to you its the same its a losing season and no playoffs to the coach its his career.

Then as much as we hate to think about it there are potential financial reprecusions aswell.

1) You have to pay a truckload of money to Tebow in escalators whilst still paying Orton
2) If as might well happen you "suck more" then you end up drafting earlier. Thats not always a good thing even with a rookie payscale your still hampering your paycap by having to draft higher unless you can trade down which has become surprisingly difficult in recent years.

Personally Im a Tebow fan. He was a winner in college, he believes hes the best. I dont think he is but its important to have that confidence.

I do think he can be a decent starting QB in the NFL even though I never think he will be your protypical NFL QB, but right now I dont think hes right for the starting job in Denver.

Look at Tebow in preseason versus the glimpse you got of Mike Kafka Sunday night who went two rounds further down the same draft.

Kafka looks ready to start in the NFL, his blitz reads, his quick release, his ability to sit in the pocket, his accuracy all significantly ahead of where Tebow is right now.

Tebow will get his shot eventually he just needs to wait for it like Brady, Rodgers, Kolb, Rivers etc did

Pyjamarama

[QUOTE=D3PO;74497145
Kafka looks ready to start in the NFL, his blitz reads, his quick release, his ability to sit in the pocket, his accuracy all significantly ahead of where Tebow is right now.
[/QUOTE]

Ah here... I think Mike has potential but even as an Eagles fan he is nowhere near ready to start. The called some simple screen plays and then he made some nice throws but he's nowhere near the level Kolb was at this time last year when he got shafted by Reid...

on topic, Tebow had his chance during camp to earn the job. He failed at it. He's not an NFL QB then again i said the same thing about Cam and he's making a mokery of me...

what next Pryor tearing things up in Oakland...?

D3PO

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Ah here... I think Mike has potential but even as an Eagles fan he is nowhere near ready to start. The called some simple screen plays and then he made some nice throws but he's nowhere near the level Kolb was at this time last year when he got shafted by Reid...

on topic, Tebow had his chance during camp to earn the job. He failed at it. He's not an NFL QB then again i said the same thing about Cam and he's making a mokery of me...

what next Pryor tearing things up in Oakland...?

I disagree about Kafka, and also about Kolb being shafted but lets not derail the topic.

re Cam people are getting blinded by the yards. Dont be fooled hes 0-2 and only for a flag in the first game hes be 2 TDs and 5 picks

5 picks in 83 attempts dont get fooled by the yards. Cam aint shown more than flashed of potential so far.

anywya lets get back on topic.

neilster

Le King wrote: »

Also there is enough evidence that Orton should be benched by now for constantly crumbling under pressure but a fit Peyton Manning wouldn't be a million times better in some of the situations Orton was in with the OL being pushed badly on every play yesterday.

Not a big fan of Tebow but a lot of Brono's fan are going with him atm. Tebow will be the starting QB by week 5 IMO.

There are a number of flaws about the Tebow v Orton v Denvers Fans debate in general that most people dont ever seem to mention .

It reminds of an almost religious argument like its faith-based , that Blair went to Iraq cos god told him he was right , so he must be right , in this case the issue of being right is putting Tebow in without any evidence it will work

Denver fans frankly are fos when it comes to their QB situation. They have a terrible O-Line where there is pressure on practically any snap . While this might suit a scrambler like Tebow on some plays it will result in field-goal dominated scorelines for Denver and playing from behind with gallant losses the only result .

The current coach did not draft Tebow or Elway but a case of nervousness from the Front office might result in Tebow getting pitched in which could be great cause failure will end this debate once and for all

neilster

D3PO wrote: »

I disagree about Kafka, and also about Kolb being shafted but lets not derail the topic.

re Cam people are getting blinded by the yards. Dont be fooled hes 0-2 and only for a flag in the first game hes be 2 TDs and 5 picks

5 picks in 83 attempts dont get fooled by the yards. Cam aint shown more than flashed of potential so far.

anywya lets get back on topic.

You are going to have to back up those comments on Newton ...flashes of potential ..he had a record-breaking start to his first game in a narrow loss to the Cards which showed a Josh Freeman-like 4th quarter revival to narrowly fail at the Cards 5 yard line , he was accurate , good in the pocket, displayed a good arm and had good poise and Freeman was the man i thought of as i watched him along with his added athletic ability . Peyton Manning , Troy Aikman and John Elway all threw interceptions in their first starts but Newton didnt

He then went to play the Packers and threw 150 yrds in the first quarter to Steve Smith and really no-one else of significance . He had a total of 400 more yards and 2 TDs in the Packer game but Dom Capers and Woodson figured out some things from the rookie with 2 picks from Woodson and one from Burnett . Overall Newton will make mistakes and there will be inevitable lows but these arent flashes of potential , he is quite possibly ahead of Bradford in development and if he ends the season in a similar vein Newton will have accomplished a good season . Carolina was expected to lean on the running game which is on paper a class act but they have not been a huge feature so far which has heaped yet more pressure on Newton where Bradford had Jackson to lean on last season ....Newton is the real deal but slow steady progress should be the order of the day

neilster

Chucky the tree wrote: »

pfft. Clearly the win was down to Tebows motivational pre-game and half-time speeches.

I think if you use the proper Right Wing terminology

"it was down to the power of prayer", Kyle Orton must feel "is it cos i am black"

Peyton Manning

neilster wrote: »

Peyton Manning , Troy Aikman and John Elway all threw interceptions in their first starts but Newton didnt

Wrong.

neilster

eagle eye wrote: »

Whats actually amazing is that he got much better protection than Orton got last year. I think thats down to his ability to lead and as I've said before his intangibles cannot be underestimated. Even that time he got them in front in one of those games and runs up to the D which you never see a QB do and then they go out and pick the ball kinda just shows what a great leader can do for a team.

There are a number of Tebow fan club members in this forum but you often display the most fervency. This comment seems to be subtly saying that the team show up for Tebow and not for Orton , that Orton doesnt have the same leadership qualities as Tebow and he doesnt have the same intangibles as Orton

Some of this is frankly nonsense , a coach who brought a basement team like Carolina to the Super Bowl in John Fox isnt taken in by the Tebow stuff

and its evident the two time Super Bowl winner in Elway hasnt fallen for it either

you say what a great leader can do for a team but he has shown nothing and everyone knows that under the right circumstances and the right match-ups December in the NFL can be garbage-time . The guy cant keep his job and that is all he is achieving at present

neilster

D3PO wrote: »

I disagree about Kafka, and also about Kolb being shafted but lets not derail the topic.

re Cam people are getting blinded by the yards. Dont be fooled hes 0-2 and only for a flag in the first game hes be 2 TDs and 5 picks

5 picks in 83 attempts dont get fooled by the yards. Cam aint shown more than flashed of potential so far.

anywya lets get back on topic.

You are going to have to back up those comments on Newton ...flashes of potential ..he had a record-breaking start to his first game in a narrow loss to the Cards which showed a Josh Freeman-like 4th quarter revival to narrowly fail at the Cards 5 yard line , he was accurate , good in the pocket, displayed a good arm and had good poise and Freeman was the man i thought of as i watched him along with his added athletic ability . Peyton Manning , Troy Aikman and John Elway all threw interceptions in their first starts but Newton didnt

He then went to play the Packers and threw 150 yrds in the first quarter to Steve Smith and really no-one else of significance . He had a total of 400 more yards and 2 TDs in the Packer game but Dom Capers and Woodson figured out some things from the rookie with 2 picks from Woodson and one from Burnett . Overall Newton will make mistakes and there will be inevitable lows but these arent flashes of potential , he is quite possibly ahead of Bradford in development and if he ends the season in a similar vein Newton will have accomplished a good season . Carolina was expected to lean on the running game which is on paper a class act but they have not been a huge feature so far which has heaped yet more pressure on Newton where Bradford had Jackson to lean on last season ....Newton is the real deal but slow steady progress should be the order of the day