Vaccinations - necessity and dangers of

Chris_Heilong

I done a search for this and only could find old posts from 2010, So heres a new tread.

Apparently new research in America has shown that dogs only need one set of Vaccines for their whole lives, vets in America are already accepting this as fact as many do year blood test to determine immunity levels in dogs and it has also been show that vaccines can have dangerous effects on dogs which if true will turn how we do things in Ireland on its head. It will also mean vets will lose a lot of revenue if people catch on to it. Maybe I will stop vaccinating my dog next year. In the words of Dr. Christina Chambreau D.V.M
"Would you rebel if your doctor told you to get measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, and hepatitis shots every year of your life until you died, instead of only a few doses as a child?"

Here are some links:
http://petvaccine.weebly.com/
http://dogkinetics.com/dog-vaccines-...er-vaccinating
these are about the dangers of Vaccines:
http://dogstodaymagazine.co.uk/lepto.html

http://designerbostons.homestead.com/misc.html

Zapperzy

The vet I use for my dog does the dhppi vaccine every 3 years and the lepto vaccine then every year, also injects into alternate areas each year.

Anyone actually gotten this titre test done in Ireland? Would be interested in hearing more about it? Can it be done for cats also?

Lizard_Moon

Unlike in America leptospirosis is active in Ireland and every year we have to treat unvaccinated dogs. There is a high mortality rate and lepto can infect people, as is a zoonosis.

Protection against lepto requires a yearly vaccination.

Regarding the others, once the primary course and first yearly booster has been completed, there is an extended vaccination period.

I have no information to hand but titre testing, if available is very expensive. Some one else may have more accurate info on this.

We need to remember the 'herd' protective effect of having so many dogs vaccinated. Also we need to question the research being presented and how reliable it is. This applies to any research for and against. I would like to see proper peer reviewed studies, not printed in the Lancet!

DBB

Hi Lizard Moon,
Do you have any idea about how many dogs contract Lepto in Ireland in an average year?
Or if you don't know figures, is it something you see in your practice on a regular basis?
Just my own curiosity, as I've heard of a number of dogs killed by it, but don't know any personally.
Thanks!:)

Chris_Heilong

Lepto seems to because by Rats and other wild animals Urine and also still contaminated water(marsh or puddle) that contain Lepto spores. So you dog smelling or drinking this water can infect him and lead to Kidney problems.

Here is some info I fot from a site about Lepto Vaccine:
The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) considers leptospirosis vaccine a “non-core” vaccine for dogs. That is, they do not recommend pets receive it unless there is a good chance they will be exposed to leptospirosis. The main reason for this is that veterinarians see more vaccination reactions following the administration of vaccines containing leptospirosis than any other vaccines. These reactions range from the minor inconveniences of pain at injection site, facial swelling and hives to a fatal anaphylactic reaction. Which pet will experience them cannot be predicted.

Here is the site: http://www.2ndchance.info/leptospirosis.htm

carwash_2006

Lizard Moon,I had come across speculation that the lepto vaccination doesn't necessarily last a full year, have you heard anything like that at all?

On the titre testing, where I have found stuff about it there are suggestions that it is not that useful. A titre test only measures how many antibodies are in the system at that time, but doesn't necessarily reflect actual immunity. There is talk of memory cells that are left behind after antibodies are gone and are activated very quickly on reinfection. Animals that have tested with no immunity and then been exposed to the disease have then tested with high levels of antibodies shortly after without contracting the disease. But I don't know how reliable these studies were and who did them. I should have bookmarked the sources when I found them, I can't think of where I would find them now.

It is certainly an interesting topic and one that raises many questions. The big problem is that it is hard to find any studies that are truly unbiased. You have the pharmaceutical companies on one side that certainly don't want to lose out on sales and then on the other the anti vaccination crowd that tend to be a bit irrational. Vaccinations, especially puppy ones and the first years are without a doubt invaluable.

Although another thing I came across was that we need to be a little careful of administering puppy vaccinations too soon after weaning as if the mothers immunity is still covering them the vaccination would not take properly and a too young immune system could potentially be harmed by early vaccination. But judging from the general populace I would say that that is mostly gotten right or we would see a lot more problems. But again, something to bear in mind if not to take too seriously.

carwash_2006

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Lepto seems to because by Rats and other wild animals Urine and also still contaminated water(marsh or puddle) that contain Lepto spores. So you dog smelling or drinking this water can infect him and lead to Kidney problems.

Here is some info I fot from a site about Lepto Vaccine:
The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) considers leptospirosis vaccine a “non-core” vaccine for dogs. That is, they do not recommend pets receive it unless there is a good chance they will be exposed to leptospirosis. The main reason for this is that veterinarians see more vaccination reactions following the administration of vaccines containing leptospirosis than any other vaccines. These reactions range from the minor inconveniences of pain at injection site, facial swelling and hives to a fatal anaphylactic reaction. Which pet will experience them cannot be predicted.

Here is the site: http://www.2ndchance.info/leptospirosis.htm

My bitch developed Auto Immune Hemolytic Anemia after a lepto shot at the start of last year. I am reluctant to blame the vaccination without proof, but there were no other potential triggers that I can tell. She had to have a blood transfusion and then was on steroids for a couple of months, thankfully she came through it fine and is the picture of health now for the last year, but it was a scary time. Hence my interest in vaccinations.

She had had a prior reaction to the 7 in 1 that was just soreness and stiffness for a few hours around the injection site. So I would urge anyone who's dog experiences anything like that after a vaccination to be very careful with future ones and watch them very carefully for a few weeks after.

Lizard_Moon

DBB wrote: »

Hi Lizard Moon,
Do you have any idea about how many dogs contract Lepto in Ireland in an average year?
Or if you don't know figures, is it something you see in your practice on a regular basis?
Just my own curiosity, as I've heard of a number of dogs killed by it, but don't know any personally.
Thanks!:)

DBB

I am trying to track down Irish figures but we see about 2-5 each year in Collies, JRT, Spaniels etc. Very expensive to do serology to diagnose and as treatment is symptomatic we are reluctant to spend more of the owners money, unless we see need for a definitive diagnosis.

LM

.

Lizard_Moon

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Lepto seems to because by Rats and other wild animals Urine and also still contaminated water(marsh or puddle) that contain Lepto spores. So you dog smelling or drinking this water can infect him and lead to Kidney problems.

Here is some info I fot from a site about Lepto Vaccine:
The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) considers leptospirosis vaccine a “non-core” vaccine for dogs. That is, they do not recommend pets receive it unless there is a good chance they will be exposed to leptospirosis. The main reason for this is that veterinarians see more vaccination reactions following the administration of vaccines containing leptospirosis than any other vaccines. These reactions range from the minor inconveniences of pain at injection site, facial swelling and hives to a fatal anaphylactic reaction. Which pet will experience them cannot be predicted

Please read my first post above.
Leptospirosis is endemic in Ireland and UK and is a CORE component of yearly vaccination. Yes there are vaccine reactions but as it can spread to people we need to control it.
A vet on another forum said " over vaccination of a dog will never kill a child but leptospirosis can". Pretty blunt but it explains why we advise lepto vaccination.
The USA has different vaccine formulations and disease risks and is not directly comparable to here.

Carwash_2006
In cattle we can have to give 6 monthly lepto vaccinations in certain herds as the protection wanes and the exposure is year round. I don't know about in dogs, sorry. You are correct that the presence in blood of antibody titres does not indicate that protection is being provided to that disease.

aisher

I was reading about this and more and more vets in the US are accepting that in most cases a dog only needs shots every 3 years - with smaller breeds the risks are less. I just had my puppy get all her shots and was planning on having them done again in a year but I would then see merit in investigating the need for yearly shots or wait. The only problem I see is that I also want to get pet insurance and so far all the questions the insurance company ask are to do with annual vaccinations.

Chris_Heilong

aisher wrote: »

I was reading about this and more and more vets in the US are accepting that in most cases a dog only needs shots every 3 years - with smaller breeds the risks are less. I just had my puppy get all her shots and was planning on having them done again in a year but I would then see merit in investigating the need for yearly shots or wait. The only problem I see is that I also want to get pet insurance and so far all the questions the insurance company ask are to do with annual vaccinations.

Yes, but this reasearch is new enough and will take time to be accepted in this part of the world, but the way things are now there are alot of downsides; you wont get insured, cant use kennels when going on holiday, cant show your dog in shows and cant travel abroad. So if you decide to not vaccinate yuor dog the following year be aware of the limitatons.

Lizard_Moon

aisher wrote: »

I was reading about this and more and more vets in the US are accepting that in most cases a dog only needs shots every 3 years - with smaller breeds the risks are less. I just had my puppy get all her shots and was planning on having them done again in a year but I would then see merit in investigating the need for yearly shots or wait. The only problem I see is that I also want to get pet insurance and so far all the questions the insurance company ask are to do with annual vaccinations.

The three year interval relates to the distemper, parainfluenza and adenovirus part of the vaccine. The parvovirus and leptovirus portions need a yearly booster.

It is very important to get the first year booster of the 7 in 1.

Thereafter, depending on the vaccine product used by your vet, you will have annual vaccinations for your dog but in only one out of three years your dog will get the full 7 in 1 and your dog will get a lepto/parvo booster for two out of the three years. Your dog will be certified as vaccinated.
Kennel cough is a different matter and not part of the 7 in 1.

Please discuss this with your vet and together you can come up with a regime that suits you and your dog and the vaccine used.

Chris_Heilong

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

The three year interval relates to the distemper, parainfluenza and adenovirus part of the vaccine. The parvovirus and leptovirus portions need a yearly booster.

It is very important to get the first year booster of the 7 in 1.

Thereafter, depending on the vaccine product used by your vet, you will have annual vaccinations for your dog but in only one out of three years your dog will get the full 7 in 1 and your dog will get a lepto/parvo booster for two out of the three years. Your dog will be certified as vaccinated.
Kennel cough is a different matter and not part of the 7 in 1.

Please discuss this with your vet and together you can come up with a regime that suits you and your dog and the vaccine used.

If Lepto is at Epidemic levels here and Humans are really at risk then shouldnt we all be getting yearly Vaccinatons as well? I am not being smart I just honestly want to know.

Chris_Heilong

Just reading Dr Ronald D Schultz, he is the main guy that got the Vaccines in the US changed to 3 year interviles he wanted to go further but the big cheeses in parmecutical wouldnt allow it.

Here is what I found.
Lepto Vaccine only works for 9 months out of the 12.
Along with the fact that a lepto vaccinated dog can still get it.
A lepto vaccinated dog can spread lepto much easier than an vaccination one as it has the MLV in its stools as soon as it leaves the vets.
This is a big money spinner for the vets. There isnt a vet in the land that would say dont vaccinate as its their main income.
The human form of lepto is weils disease borne by rats wee.

Cherry Blossom

aisher wrote: »

I was reading about this and more and more vets in the US are accepting that in most cases a dog only needs shots every 3 years - with smaller breeds the risks are less. I just had my puppy get all her shots and was planning on having them done again in a year but I would then see merit in investigating the need for yearly shots or wait. The only problem I see is that I also want to get pet insurance and so far all the questions the insurance company ask are to do with annual vaccinations.

The initial course of vaccinations is actually the 2 shots they get when they are small and the next one after a year. The jabs at one year old is the completion of the initial course of vaccinations, so your pup needs to get the next injection regardless of what you plan to do. I'm also very interested in this and will be looking into it in a lot more depth now that my dog has just had her 1 year shots.

Cherry Blossom

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

If Lepto is at Epidemic levels here and Humans are really at risk then shouldnt we all be getting yearly Vaccinatons as well? I am not being smart I just honestly want to know.

Actually my dad contracted weils disease on the one occasion he (stupidly) drank from a river which resulted in a little holiday in hospital, every puddle has the potential to be a place that is harbouring lepto, and we all know what dogs are like! I'd be more interested in seeing some sort of research on how the immune system works in co-operation (or not as the case may be) with vaccination. I know that it's not so long since there were (and still are) masses of dogs wandering around the place that have never been vaccinated against anything that have built up a natural immunity. I for one am never going to take the chance with a puppy but there must be some sort of info somewhere that would elaborate or clarify if the dogs own immune system takes over after the initial vaccs. Personally I think parvo is a much bigger threat to dogs than lepto, puppies with parvo are too common a sight in my local vets.

Lizard_Moon

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Just reading Dr Ronald D Schultz, he is the main guy that got the Vaccines in the US changed to 3 year interviles he wanted to go further but the big cheeses in parmecutical wouldnt allow it.

Here is what I found.
Lepto Vaccine only works for 9 months out of the 12.
Along with the fact that a lepto vaccinated dog can still get it.
A lepto vaccinated dog can spread lepto much easier than an vaccination one as it has the MLV in its stools as soon as it leaves the vets..

? I don't understand the above. Lepto is spread via urine so is not in faeces.

What do you mean by MLV? Modified Live virus- which is totally wrong as lepto is a bacteria, Modified Live Vaccine?

Anyway the vaccine used here is an inactivated('killed') one which needs an annual booster dose. Our suppliers have demonstrated year long immunity to their vaccines. Again I say the US have different vaccines.

www.leptospirosis.org is a site for human lepto and they say that although they are trying to develop one it is proving difficult- one on trial in Cuba at the moment but I only glanced at the site.

Also I said Lepto is endemic and not epidemic.

I won't bother responding to the usual money grabbing vets bit of your post.

DBB

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

Please discuss this with your vet and together you can come up with a regime that suits you and your dog and the vaccine used.

Hi again Lizard Moon,
In relation to insurance companies, kennels etc demanding annual vaccination... is there not an argument that if the animal's vet has signed off on a different vaccination program, e.g. some viruses only being vaccinated for every 3 years, that this should be sufficient for the insurance company or kennels?
Surely, if a vet has certified that an animal is sufficeintly covered againt various diseases, that's good enough? I know the insuarance companies have vets overseeing policy, but unless a kennel owner is a vet, surely they can't argue that a dog must have yearly vaccinations if the vet thinks otherwise?
What's the vet view on this?:)

PS Whilst I have little doubt that some vets are "money-grabbers", such people are found in all professions. Some really good vets I know barely have an arse in their pants due to their being the antithesis of a money-grabber.

Wisco

With regard to insurance and vaccination, I think you will find that part of the requirements to insure your pet, in addition to vaccination, is an annual vet checkup. This generally occurs at the same time as your annual booster, if you're lucky enough not to need any vet visits in the meantime.
Also, as Lizard Moon said, the lepto vaccine needs to be given every year, and in my experience, insurers will cover you even if you're not getting the full 7 in 1 every year, so long as you get some vaccines (ie, parvo and lepto) annually, although you may want to check this with your particular insurer.
Reading studies about what works in North America may give you some insight in to vaccination protocols, but as the disease situation is totally different there, you cannot assume that what works there will work here.
Personally, I would rather err on the side of caution and vaccinate as I have seen too many animals die of lepto and parvo, and that's not even considering the risk of zoonosis.

Souterrain

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

The three year interval relates to the distemper, parainfluenza and adenovirus part of the vaccine. The parvovirus and leptovirus portions need a yearly booster.

It is very important to get the first year booster of the 7 in 1.

Thereafter, depending on the vaccine product used by your vet, you will have annual vaccinations for your dog but in only one out of three years your dog will get the full 7 in 1 and your dog will get a lepto/parvo booster for two out of the three years. Your dog will be certified as vaccinated.
Kennel cough is a different matter and not part of the 7 in 1.

Please discuss this with your vet and together you can come up with a regime that suits you and your dog and the vaccine used.

The vets seem to differ a lot on this. Our vets told us a good while ago there was no need to vaccinate the dogs every year, that every 2 or 3 years was often enough.


It has saved me a lot of money, and last year they just sold me the vaccine and I injected them myself with somebody holding them and that was even cheaper. My neighbour buys vaccine in the internet for her dog, but I haven’t been brave enough to try that myself yet for our mob.

Sue

ferretone

DBB wrote: »

Hi again Lizard Moon,
In relation to insurance companies, kennels etc demanding annual vaccination... is there not an argument that if the animal's vet has signed off on a different vaccination program, e.g. some viruses only being vaccinated for every 3 years, that this should be sufficient for the insurance company or kennels?
Surely, if a vet has certified that an animal is sufficeintly covered againt various diseases, that's good enough? I know the insuarance companies have vets overseeing policy, but unless a kennel owner is a vet, surely they can't argue that a dog must have yearly vaccinations if the vet thinks otherwise?
What's the vet view on this?:)

My vet annually vaccinates my dog (who had full shots as a pup of course), for lepto and parvo only, and signs and stamps her records as being fully vaccinated. My kennel guy, who I only need very rarely, does not demand kennel cough vaccination, which I regard as being of dubious benefit anyway.

Now I more than suspect things will be very different if I decide to get a passport to travel with her, but that is a very special case, and I think it will be a long time before less antediluvian thinking infiltrates anywhere near that!