Freeman Megamerge

constance tench

constance tench wrote: »

Yes, that is what a promissory note is as defined by The Bills of Exchange Act, but, what I'm trying find out from kayroo is, why he/she is suggesting a promissory note can not be used to defer payment in cash/credit on a mortgage.

Well let's take one part of the definition: "a sum certain in money".

Almost all Irish mortgages are charged at a rate of interest of EURIBOR +2 or +3 for example. Fixed rate mortgages for the term of the mortgage are really REALLY rare so let's just deal with most mortgages, trackers or variable rate mortgages.

Since it's not possible to put the exact figure you are promising to repay on the promissory note (since you don't know what interest rates will do over 20+ years) then you cannot give "a sum certain in money". Therefore it's not a valid promissory note.

This is just basic first principles. It doesn't fit the definition therefore it's not a promissory note.

constance tench

Deleted User wrote: »

Well let's take one part of the definition: "a sum certain in money".

Almost all Irish mortgages are charged at a rate of interest of EURIBOR +2 or +3 for example. Fixed rate mortgages for the term of the mortgage are really REALLY rare so let's just deal with most mortgages, trackers or variable rate mortgages.

Since it's not possible to put the exact figure you are promising to repay on the promissory note (since you don't know what interest rates will do over 20+ years) then you cannot give "a sum certain in money". Therefore it's not a valid promissory note.

This is just basic first principles. It doesn't fit the definition therefore it's not a promissory note.

Of course it is possible!

One is deferring a cash/credit payment.
'...at a fixed or determinable future time, of a sum certain in money,...'
[interest may be included on the note by the maker.]

As The bank would consider the note an asset, it will accept it
for what it is and no interest rate increase will change that.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1882/en/act/pub/0061/sec0083.html

A promissory note is...a promissory note.

... a win-win situation whereby, society as a whole would benefit
from this quantitative easing affect.

E Honohan:
'It is for reasons of official caution that none of the official suggestions for dealing with the mortgage arrears crisis ever impose fixed settlement formulae on an unwilling lender. Instead, he is invited to find a basis for a new agreement with the borrower and no lender can allege he was forced to make the changes to which he freely agreed.'

constance tench

constance tench wrote: »

One is deferring a cash/credit payment.
'...at a fixed or determinable future time, of a sum certain in money,...'
[interest may be included on the note by the maker.]

I didn't realise only I was supposed to use citations.

constance tench

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't realise only I was supposed to use citations.

I appreciate your critical thinking:)

We'll have to wait and see!

constance tench

constance tench wrote: »

I appreciate your critical thinking:)

We'll have to wait and see!

Ah ok.

Just to be clear there are, again, circumstances where interest can (and has) been included as part of the promissory note. The element of "sum certain" is the important one.

constance tench

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah ok.

Just to be clear there are, again, circumstances where interest can (and has) been included as part of the promissory note. The element of "sum certain" is the important one.

I'm sure I've covered that as interest rate increases do not effect the acceptance of a promissory note...[3303 offer and acceptance]

Robbo

Exciting times over at Hub Worldwide HQ. Tomorrow's the day for the meeting to form their political party. Only €20 buys eternal salvation from the banks or triple your money back. You might even get a piece of paper for your money and I'm sure that nothing will disappear into the ether.

It seems that people took exception to Hub Landlord and Land League supremo, Jerry Beades directing that O'Connell Bridge be blocked some time after the main protests had ended on Wednesday. The Hub wish to make it clear that this has nothing to do with them, except for supporting it.

So if anyone here couldn't get a bus or red line Luas home from work on Wednesday, you have a former Fianna Fail bagman (not averse to shonky landlord-tenant behaviour himself) to thank, with the Hub's blessing. Even the SWP were mortified at the presence of Beades and his actions on the day.

So independent are they from Gerry and the Bridgeblockers, that they've teamed up on a joint operation to cause minor inconvenience in the reception of a solicitors they've taken a dislike to. Highlights include them still flogging the securitisation dead horse, going on a whole "you can't handle the truth" line and then threatening to protest outside people's private homes which they believe is totally kosher.

Another classic Land League line earlier on was that "the current dictatorship removed the constutional rights of the Irish people". They are referring to being allowed to protest on Kildare Street, which anyone who's ever actually read the Constitution will know is one of the few permissible restrictions of the right, and has been since Noah was a lad.

For Forks Sake

Robbo wrote: »

Another classic Land League line earlier on was that "the current dictatorship removed the constutional rights of the Irish people". They are referring to being allowed to protest on Kildare Street, which anyone who's ever actually read the Constitution will know is one of the few permissible restrictions of the right, and has been since Noah was a lad.

The link in that last one leads to :

Lise Hand
PUBLISHED
20/03/2013 | 13:21

Focking eejits. Also claiming they can get 130000 people on the streets. At the rate the numbers are going up from the protestors it'll be like the Munster-All Blacks game in the late 70s, which about 2.6 million people claim to have attended.

Beano

For Forks Sake wrote: »

The link in that last one leads to :

Lise Hand
PUBLISHED
20/03/2013 | 13:21

Focking eejits. Also claiming they can get 130000 people on the streets. At the rate the numbers are going up from the protestors it'll be like the Munster-All Blacks game in the late 70s, which about 2.6 million people claim to have attended.

thats nearly as many as claimed to be on the balcony at princes gate.

whippet

@robbo .. I don't think anyone could have summed it up as well as you have.

That video on the Hub's Facebook page is just vile .. they look like and sound like absolute thugs and they look like they are more interested in getting Facebook likes and viral videos .. personal glory.

As you mention .. it didn't take long until money needed to be paid to get to see them !!

Robbo

Handed down to Moses on the Mount, it's The Hub's constitution.

They're doing a nice line in nostalgia since one of their aims is "recall the decisions of Government". They also want the 6 counties back and withdrawal from the EU.

They're also pandering to the rural polygamists with their aim "To protect the natural environment and invest and protect the heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain and support as many families as practicable on the land".

Pat Mustard

Robbo wrote: »

So independent are they from Gerry and the Bridgeblockers, that they've teamed up on a joint operation to cause minor inconvenience in the reception of a solicitors they've taken a dislike to. Highlights include them still flogging the securitisation dead horse, going on a whole "you can't handle the truth" line and then threatening to protest outside people's private homes which they believe is totally kosher.

That clip was as cringeworthy as an episode of The Office. Whoever that lady was, she was far too nice to them. The facebook comments were cringeworthy as well. Here's one:

Got a bit emotional watching this. Proud to be irish. We're not in arrears but to see the Hubs work is amazing. Everyone needs to be held accountable and not blinkered and having the attitude that once they're ok. Who cares about the rest. We need to stand together and look after each other. Is it true ye're opening in Waterford? Keep up the good work.

Yeah, stand together and be proud to be Irish by badgering some solicitor in the reception of her office. The directors of AIB will be quaking in their boots.

cml387

Being back in Mullingar at the weekend I happened to be reading our local rag The Topic, and was intrigued to read the front page story about a group of "Guardian Angels" who were present at Mullingar circuit court to help out those whose houses were up for repossession.

I'm afraid I can't link directly to the article which is behind a paywall, but it seems this group was the National Land League, and the article gives them a great write up about how many people were saved from being thrown out into the streets before Christamas.

Careful reading of the article however indicates that most of the cases featured in the article merely had their cases adjourned to the next sitting.

Little CuChulainn

cml387 wrote: »

Being back in Mullingar at the weekend I happened to be reading our local rag The Topic, and was intrigued to read the front page story about a group of "Guardian Angels" who were present at Mullingar circuit court to help out those whose houses were up for repossession.

I'm afraid I can't link directly to the article which is behind a paywall, but it seems this group was the National Land League, and the article gives them a great write up about how many people were saved from being thrown out into the streets before Christamas.

Careful reading of the article however indicates that most of the cases featured in the article merely had their cases adjourned to the next sitting.

They have those stories daily on their Facebooks. I followed the Hub for a while to get the just of them. The amount of people they claim are "in tears" outside courts because the Hub was there to save them from eviction is astounding.

whippet

The Land League / The Hub / Anti-Eviction Task Force / People for Economic Justice / Debtsolutions (the artist formerly known as Debt Options) / Anti-Evition Task Force Meath / Direct Democracy Ireland .. they are really all the one .. individuals are all interchangeable ... but the message is all the same from each of them.

They all have the following in common:

- Believe that no debt should ever be paid regardless of why it was borrowed.
- They believe that Denis O'Brien controls the Gardai
- Chemtrails are real
- Fluoride is there to subdue the masses to allow the sinister conspiracy to run rough shot over the citizens
- All media are out to get them and everything they publish is lies (unless is backs up something they might say .. and then it can be gospel)
- Their methods of achieving what they want generally involve Intimidation, frustration of administration, making up stuff, clickbait on Facebook and of course a good dollop of Freeman lunacy.
- There seems to be a trait of 32 County loyalty running though them as well
- Even in defeat declare a victory
- Judges who do not agree with them are corrupt and subject to impeachment (well that's gilroy's claim)
- Many of the founding members are ex Developers or Property Tycoons who bit off more than they can chew and now that they might have to pay it back they set up 'support' groups to legitimise their reluctance to accept their mistakes and face their responsibilities.


I'm looking forward to some of the comedy that will come our way when the elections do come around !!

For Forks Sake

whippet wrote: »

The Land League / The Hub / Anti-Eviction Task Force / People for Economic Justice / Debtsolutions (the artist formerly known as Debt Options) / Anti-Evition Task Force Meath / Direct Democracy Ireland .. they are really all the one .. individuals are all interchangeable ... but the message is all the same from each of them.

They all have the following in common:

- Believe that no debt should ever be paid regardless of why it was borrowed.
- They believe that Denis O'Brien controls the Gardai
- Chemtrails are real
- Fluoride is there to subdue the masses to allow the sinister conspiracy to run rough shot over the citizens
- All media are out to get them and everything they publish is lies (unless is backs up something they might say .. and then it can be gospel)
- Their methods of achieving what they want generally involve Intimidation, frustration of administration, making up stuff, clickbait on Facebook and of course a good dollop of Freeman lunacy.
- There seems to be a trait of 32 County loyalty running though them as well
- Even in defeat declare a victory
- Judges who do not agree with them are corrupt and subject to impeachment (well that's gilroy's claim)
- Many of the founding members are ex Developers or Property Tycoons who bit off more than they can chew and now that they might have to pay it back they set up 'support' groups to legitimise their reluctance to accept their mistakes and face their responsibilities.


I'm looking forward to some of the comedy that will come our way when the elections do come around !!

What's their policy on Lizard People?

Beaner1

whippet wrote: »

The Land League / The Hub / Anti-Eviction Task Force / People for Economic Justice / Debtsolutions (the artist formerly known as Debt Options) / Anti-Evition Task Force Meath / Direct Democracy Ireland .. they are really all the one .. individuals are all interchangeable ... but the message is all the same from each of them.

They all have the following in common:

- Believe that no debt should ever be paid regardless of why it was borrowed.
- They believe that Denis O'Brien controls the Gardai
- Chemtrails are real
- Fluoride is there to subdue the masses to allow the sinister conspiracy to run rough shot over the citizens
- All media are out to get them and everything they publish is lies (unless is backs up something they might say .. and then it can be gospel)
- Their methods of achieving what they want generally involve Intimidation, frustration of administration, making up stuff, clickbait on Facebook and of course a good dollop of Freeman lunacy.
- There seems to be a trait of 32 County loyalty running though them as well
- Even in defeat declare a victory
- Judges who do not agree with them are corrupt and subject to impeachment (well that's gilroy's claim)
- Many of the founding members are ex Developers or Property Tycoons who bit off more than they can chew and now that they might have to pay it back they set up 'support' groups to legitimise their reluctance to accept their mistakes and face their responsibilities.


I'm looking forward to some of the comedy that will come our way when the elections do come around !!

Superb summary of the whole situation. A truly awful bunch.

cml387

It strikes me, having read Whippet's post, that these groups are tapping into a deep Irish race memory of agrarian revolution from the 19th century? Apart from the obvious Land League link, is there not also a more intangible undercurrent of belief that rules regarding property and debt do not apply in Ireland because they are being applied by a "foreign power".

whippet

cml387 wrote: »

It strikes me, having read Whippet's post, that these groups are tapping into a deep Irish race memory of agrarian revolution from the 19th century? Apart from the obvious Land League link, is there not also a more intangible undercurrent of belief that rules regarding property and debt do not apply in Ireland because they are being applied by a "foreign power".

you could be close to the mark there obviously ... but there is a few main players and the majority are some what clueless followers who 'like the cut of their jib' and think they are great lads.

Oryx

The only bit that post leaves out is how these groups seem so similar to scams Trusts with Knowledgeable Advisers woo peddlers who by necessity have to charge a fee accept donations to keep the Trust going pay off their own debts and leave everyone else swinging. But they arent the same, of course. Not all all sir.

Robbo

Oryx wrote: »

The only bit that post leaves out is how these groups seem so similar to scams Trusts with Knowledgeable Advisers woo peddlers who by necessity have to charge a fee accept donations to keep the Trust going pay off their own debts and leave everyone else swinging. But they arent the same, of course. Not all all sir.

The Cash-For-Paper merchants, as I call them.

I see from their Facebook that there's a number of disgruntled Attack the Tax members who haven't received their "share certs" or any information on their purported Supreme Court appeal. Further donations have been suggested as a remedy.

Losty Dublin

whippet wrote: »

you could be close to the mark there obviously ... but there is a few main players and the majority are some what clueless followers who 'like the cut of their jib' and think they are great lads.

Of course, these lads neglect to mention that the proper Land League fought for the rights of downtrodden tenants who were generally mistreated by absent Landlords as a matter of course.

The current Land League are I can't believe they are not Freemen types who are trying to persuade some of today's gullible land owners that they need not pay off various loans using their long discredited snake oil logic.

littlemac1980

Here's an article from DDI about one of Ben's recent Court victories:

http://directdemocracyireland.ie/ddis-ben-gilroy-continues-win-legal-arguments-help-keep-people-homes-businesses/

Makes you wonder a number of things, such as why bother paying solicitors at all when apparently people like Ben can do a better job, and sure with the Court's continued willingness to permit him and other lay-litigants to advocate on behalf of others, even if he can't do a better job, he can certainly do a cheaper job - what with not being required by law to pay huge insurance costs and annual Law Society fees and practice certificate costs.

whippet

All is not rosy in the camp ... Message on the hubs face plant page ... Jerry and the Land Rovers are accusing the hub of forgetting their place in the grand scheme and having egos ... Well I never ...

HamsterFace

whippet wrote: »

All is not rosy in the camp ... Message on the hubs face plant page ... Jerry and the Land Rovers are accusing the hub of forgetting their place in the grand scheme and having egos ... Well I never ...

Am really looking forward to the next election to watch the egos truly emerge

The poor populist punters won't know where their loyalties lie

ArmaniJeanss

whippet wrote: »

All is not rosy in the camp ... Message on the hubs face plant page ... Jerry and the Land Rovers are accusing the hub of forgetting their place in the grand scheme and having egos ... Well I never ...

Any link to this, their updates are so plentiful its impossible to find anything.
Isn't JerryBeades the landlord of HubHQ in the Lubyanka building in Mary St? Probably not a good idea to have a facebook fight with your landlord.

whippet

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Any link to this, their updates are so plentiful its impossible to find anything.
Isn't JerryBeades the landlord of HubHQ in the Lubyanka building in Mary St? Probably not a good idea to have a facebook fight with your landlord.

it has disappeared !!! .. but it seemed to be a quote from Jerry having a go at those in the hub for going down an political route while the hubbers were giving their version of history.

they should just set up their own Freeman Parliament, elect their own deputies and debate their nonsense all day long ... pick a greenfield site with an abandoned warehouse ..

SpaceSasqwatch

who runs the hub-ireland?

people are hyprocrits..I have the misfortune of being on bookface and quite a few friends decry FG/FF/Labour as corrupt blah blah but then share the hubs ****e.Someone posted the timeline of the hub and the owner was waxing lyrical about jerry beades.A FF supporter and a failed developer.

Go figure..

Losty Dublin

SpaceSasqwatch wrote: »

who runs the hub-ireland?

people are hyprocrits..I have the misfortune of being on bookface and quite a few friends decry FG/FF/Labour as corrupt blah blah but then share the hubs ****e.Someone posted the timeline of the hub and the owner was waxing lyrical about jerry beades.A FF supporter and a failed developer.

Go figure..

I bet you were told one of "give them a chance" or "at least they are trying" or "at least they are not from the insert party name here" coupled with a few lines bewailing bankers, builders, bondholders and golden envelopes.

Taking bribes in green or blue envelopes is another thing altogether, of course

SpaceSasqwatch

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I bet you were told one of "give them a chance" or "at least they are trying" or "at least they are not from the insert party name here" coupled with a few lines bewailing bankers, builders, bondholders and golden envelopes.

pretty much lol