Freeman Megamerge

MilanPan!c

Here's an interesting insight into the owner of that channel, "Gearóid Ó Bruác'Abáinn":

https://www.facebook.com/UCCShop/posts/130025737167207

Losty Dublin

themadhair wrote: »

I have my doubts that Irish Freeman groups will perpetrate acts of violence, and certainly not as a primary result of Freeman ideology.

When we look at violence within Freeman groups we are pretty much forced to look at the US. But the violent groups have a history towards violence that is independent of their Freeman ideology. Militia groups and gun club nuts are commonplace, and that such already anti-government groups would adopt Freeman ideas isn't surprising.

If we look at Canadian Freeman groups we don't see any of the tendency towards violence we see in the US. It's odd that Canadian police on the ground are saying they are seeing no violence, but the Canadian chiefs are telling a different story (this is what happens why you invite US speakers to your annual conferences – you get the US perspective which the chiefs seem to be regurgitating). Canada, due to not having the underlying tendency towards violence in its anti-government groups (like the US does), simply hasn't imported the violence along with the ideology. I don't see any reason why Ireland would be much different in this regard.

All that said, you do always have two possibilities for violence. The first is that a mentally deranged person could do something really stupid and violent – but that would likely have happened with any ideology and not just the Freeman one. The second is that you have a paramilitary-style group adopt the Freeman ideas – but that would a group predestined to violence with or without Freemanism.

In sum, I think Ireland will go the way of Canada rather than the more violent way of the US when it comes to this.

Shall we take it then that the large mobs that show up at evictions in order to intimidate and deter local Sheriffs and Gardai from enforcing courts orders and arrest warrants or those who have broken into repossessed properties and reopened businesses in same or those who advocate holding "court sessions" in Cork will not perpertrate acts of violence?

MilanPan!c

This is interesting as well. Is that Claire??

Robbo

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Here's an interesting insight into the owner of that channel, "Gearóid Ó Bruác'Abáinn":

https://www.facebook.com/UCCShop/posts/130025737167207

I'd imagine that when he pops down to Centra for a pint of milk, he questions the authority of the whole shop and calls it a relic from when Eamon Devalera blew up Alderaan in his Newgrange-shaped Death Star; all of which occurred within chakra touching distance of Ballyphehane and was used as a pretext to allow RGDATA to sell overpriced milk without a licence.

Losty Dublin

Robbo wrote: »

I'd imagine that when he pops down to Centra for a pint of milk, he questions the authority of the whole shop and calls it a relic from when Eamon Devalera blew up Alderaan in his Newgrange-shaped Death Star; all of which occurred within chakra touching distance of Ballyphehane and was used as a pretext to allow RGDATA to sell overpriced milk without a licence.

It's more flouride they need in the water down that way, not less.

MilanPan!c

Robbo wrote: »

I'd imagine that when he pops down to Centra for a pint of milk, he questions the authority of the whole shop and calls it a relic from when Eamon Devalera blew up Alderaan in his Newgrange-shaped Death Star; all of which occurred within chakra touching distance of Ballyphehane and was used as a pretext to allow RGDATA to sell overpriced milk without a licence.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's more flouride they need in the water down that way, not less.

LOL

Thargor

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Here's an interesting insight into the owner of that channel, "Gearóid Ó Bruác'Abáinn":

https://www.facebook.com/UCCShop/posts/130025737167207

They just start hammering away with link after link after link to unrelated stuff, you'd have to question if they've read or viewed any of it themselves or is it just chaff they start spraying so they cant be accused of not providing sources if anyone questions their nonsense.

MilanPan!c

Thargor wrote: »

They just start hammering away with link after link after link to unrelated stuff, you'd have to question if they've read or viewed any of it themselves or is it just chaff they start spraying so they cant be accused of not providing sources if anyone questions their nonsense.

In the heads of these people this is all connected, and - if questioned about discrepancies - they'll simply say you're missing the bigger picture.

They've brainwashed themselves... thanks a lot internet.

themadhair

MilanPan!c wrote: »

- The Irish Freeman is a more modern movement, and is using social media, from the outset, to mobilise and spread propaganda
…
This is a VERY different evolution than what happened in Canada, The US and the UK.

But there is a much better real-life example upon which we draw here in the form of anonymous-based groups. The Freeman activities in Ireland match those a lot closer than any of the 'Sovereign Citizen'-style groups of the US.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Shall we take it then that the large mobs that show up at evictions in order to intimidate and deter local Sheriffs and Gardai from enforcing courts orders and arrest warrants or those who have broken into repossessed properties and reopened businesses in same or those who advocate holding "court sessions" in Cork will not perpertrate acts of violence?

I do believe so. The single best example in Ireland I can think of was the February 10th 2008 protest against Scientology. Over a hundred people showed up, most wearing masks and balaclavas (which, when combined with the tricolours, made the Gardai a little uneasy). That was much chaotic than the Freeman mobs, and yet it never once looked like going violent.

You have to realise the mentality that accompanies these types of group action. There is a, for want of a better word, 'righteousness' and desire for legitimacy that infuses the participants. The understanding that any violence would shred any hoped-for credibility in the eyes of society is central to how such activities are planned and conducted. At the end of the day you are talking about well-meaning people who genuinely want to do good – and acts of violence doesn't make sense within this mentality.

For me, that folks will get screwed over in court through their own stupidity and that conmen will be exploiting such folks is the worry. Violence I just don't see here.

BlutendeRabe

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Shall we take it then that the large mobs that show up at evictions in order to intimidate and deter local Sheriffs and Gardai from enforcing courts orders and arrest warrants or those who have broken into repossessed properties and reopened businesses in same or those who advocate holding "court sessions" in Cork will not perpertrate acts of violence?

No one in that mob were carrying any guns.
In the US, they easily wound (at least) anyone who got in their way.

Cody Pomeray

MilanPan!c wrote: »

1. The Freemen themselves can't agree on the basics of their beliefs; some are much more extreme than others. At some point the chances of the more extreme examples causing real harm becomes non-trivial, simply because of the numbers involved.

This doesn't make any sense. The chances of them "causing harm" is great because they are large (really?) and non-homogenous (like every conglomeration of human persons since the year dot)? What you are describing doesn't make freemen "dangerous" in any immediate or physically dangerous way.

I think we need to be realistic about the threat posed by these guys.

In many cases these people believe that their own society sold them into a sort of slavery at birth, and works (using a things like NLP) to keep all of humanity enslaved. That's a far cry from over-zealous censorship of films.

Not really, freemen are just a nutty fringe movement of an already nutty libertarian movement. I (regrettably) have met libertarians who deny the existence of society, and use the same sort of emotive nonsense that the Freemen use (without the freeman's crazy methods, of course)

What I'm saying is that the freeman's methods are what are crazy about him. Unfortunately, his beliefs are just hard line libertarianism, with a dash of debt-forgiveness thrown in.

Deleted User wrote: »

However people who believe that the self same law, emanation or circumstance doesn't in fact exist and that it is all a game of shadows designed to fool you and, furthermore, that through a special set of words or deeds you can force people to act according to the "real" laws etc. is complete nonsense of the highest order and should be mocked, ridiculed and derided for what it is.

Right, but how is that different to what I'm saying?

I say that their underlying principles don't appeal to me, but they appeal to other "normal" people.

It is their methods - playing with the game of shadows - that is foolish. But it's not particularly "harmful" in any physical or threatening way. I think that's just an exaggeration.

Losty Dublin

themadhair wrote: »

I do believe so.....

You have to realise the mentality that accompanies these types of group action. There is a, for want of a better word, 'righteousness' and desire for legitimacy that infuses the participants. The understanding that any violence would shred any hoped-for credibility in the eyes of society is central to how such activities are planned and conducted. At the end of the day you are talking about well-meaning people who genuinely want to do good – and acts of violence doesn't make sense within this mentality.

For me, that folks will get screwed over in court through their own stupidity and that conmen will be exploiting such folks is the worry. Violence I just don't see here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbQsk-WdPoc

I defy you to tell us, after watching this video, that these guys meant no violence. A bunch of 200 angry men, some of whom were masked. There are even men in the mod who were pleading for others to not go at him, for crying out loud. On another day, that security man would have been more badly hurt than he was that day; he was very lucky.

Maybe there was no arms in sight but it's crystal clear than they had a nasty vibe going on and many of them were looking to take it out on anybody who got in their way. All that mob were was a bunch is misinformed angry bitter idiots. Gilroy and his DDI henchmen have played them all like a sweet fiddle with his Freeman Rhapsody.

themadhair

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I defy you to tell us, after watching this video, that these guys meant no violence.

That video does absolutely nothing to change my mind. Having a large number of people in a small space always carries a risk, but that risk is attributable to the nature of protesting rather than Freeman ideology.

Let me illustrate the illogic of your posting by using a non-Freeman example:
http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/15809
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2007/0413/ireland/ohanlon-hits-out-at-attack-on-father-30307.html

If you were to claim that 'wanting to save a hospital' has a violent streak you would be laughed out of it. Yet, this is essentially the same thing you are doing with you use of the YouTube video.

Losty Dublin

themadhair wrote: »

That video does absolutely nothing to change my mind. Having a large number of people in a small space always carries a risk, but that risk is attributable to the nature of protesting rather than Freeman ideology.

Let me illustrate the illogic of your posting by using a non-Freeman example:
http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/15809
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2007/0413/ireland/ohanlon-hits-out-at-attack-on-father-30307.html

If you were to claim that 'wanting to save a hospital' has a violent streak you would be laughed out of it. Yet, this is essentially the same thing you are doing with you use of the YouTube video.

So what you are saying is that numerous members of a heated mob assaulting a security guard and verbally abusing and chasing him away is merely a risk of protesting? :rolleyes:

Pat Mustard

More trouble in da 'Hane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZBArIMkF0

Pro Hoc Vice

The Mustard wrote: »

More trouble in da 'Hane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZBArIMkF0

The AGS showed great restraint, if those nut jobs tried that in Poland I can only imagine how the Polish Police would respond, they don't take that rubbish.

These people are very dangerous, that women in falling for their rubbish, had to be dramatically arrested, when the vast amount of bench warrants are executed by appointment with no drama.

One thing I can't understand the date given at the start if the tape is 5th November 2013, but the warrent of the DC was signed by a judge who has not been a DJ for if I'm correct over a year.

Pat Mustard

infosys wrote: »

The AGS showed great restraint, if those nut jobs tried that in Poland I can only imagine how the Polish Police would respond, they don't take that rubbish.

I agree. The uniformed Garda Sergeant was very nice about it. Considering the jostling from the group, Gardai could have made more arrests.

infosys wrote: »

These people are very dangerous, that women in falling for there rubbish, had to be dramatically arrested, when the vast amount of bench warrants are executed by appointment with no dram.

Yes. That young woman seemed to have been completely taken in by those people, which could cause all sorts of problems for her and her child.

infosys wrote: »

One thing I can't understand the date given at the start if the tape is 5th November 2013, but the warrent of the DC was signed by a judge who has not been a DJ for if I'm correct over a year.

Got me there. Unless the Garda Sergeant had meant to refer to another Judge.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

johnnyskeleton

The Mustard wrote: »

More trouble in da 'Hane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZBArIMkF0

It's like watching a bunch of children trying to explain that they can't come in for dinner because in the rules of their imaginary game there is no such thing as hunger.

I like the way yer man kept saying "don't consent to being taken Eva" when she was already in the van.

constance tench

Robbo wrote: »

Chances are you'll have a sizeable intersection of anti-vaxxers and freemen in any given group of swivel eyed loons.

swivel eyed loons?...really?

Ninety-three people in Sweden, most of them children, have been diagnosed with narcolepsy since taking the swine flu vaccine Pandemrix last winter...

In 88 of the 93 cases, the agency has identified a direct correlation between the vaccine and the onset of narcolepsy, a sleep disorder causing extreme drowsiness and daytime sleep attacks...

Since August 2010, at least 12 countries have reported cases of narcolepsy, particularly among children and adolescents, after receiving a swine flu, or H1N1, vaccine.

http://www.thelocal.se/20110528/34044

The group represents 54 children, adolescents and adults diagnosed who have the disorder as a result of vaccination with swine flu vaccine Pandemrix, which was given as part of a State sponsored and promoted campaign.

http://www.thejournal.ie/narcolepsy-march-letter-875396-Apr2013/

MilanPan!c

constance tench wrote: »

swivel eyed loons?...really?



http://www.thelocal.se/20110528/34044



http://www.thejournal.ie/narcolepsy-march-letter-875396-Apr2013/

You have to look at the totality of vaccination programmes. There's always going to be some bad things that come from any sort of program that affects 10s of millions of people, but my kids have been vaccinated and have not suffered ill effects, whereas the dangers of not vaccinating people is pretty well known.

Every precaution should be taken, and society should be protected from crooked businesses, etc., but being anti-vaccination - full stop - is crazy.

littlemac1980

The Mustard wrote: »

More trouble in da 'Hane.

The arrest is perfectly legal because although the arresting Garda isn't wearing his hat, he has a blue pen on his ear. (I saw Brian O'Byrne sporting a similar pen over his ear in Love/Hate episode last sunday, so it's obviously necessary - those guys do their research)

Feel a bit sorry for the woman, she looked a bit baffled by the level of "assistance" she got, mightn't have played out like she had been advised it would.

The extent of the "assistance" she received was effectively to be told to say "I don't consent" and when that didn't work to be supported by way of a chorus of "Why don't yous go arrest some real criminals?" type responses.

Unless of course the "assistance" she was promised was that she would have her very arrested face published on the internet by her expert team of "assistants", in which case mission accomplished.

Hilfskreuzer Mowe

Greetings Freeman Megamerge posters,

A brief introduction - I am a Canadian who has a professional and private interest in what our courts since Meads v. Meads have referred to as OPCA litigants (Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument). I have been periodically reviewing this message thread and have very much enjoyed the posts and appreciate the effort that has gone to research, describe, and debunk the Irish Freeman-on-the-Land phenomenon.

I have a number of reasons for posting. The first is the recent discussion on the violent component of Canadian vs. U.S. OPCA phenomena. I am very familiar with what has been going on in Canada and I can confirm that there is a limited degree of violence exhibited by our Freeman-on-the-Land community, though we now do have a number of police shootings and armed standoffs, and there is a large amount of lower-level confrontation and assault, typically during road-side stops and entry into properties. In that sense Canada has seen much less 'gun-oriented' or 'posse' type activity than in the U.S. Sovereign Citizen equivalent, though there has been an alarming appearance of self-proclaimed vigilante Freeman police officers in the last year. This is a comparatively new development in Canada, but has been a long-standing feature in the American Sovereign Citizen community.

I believe the difference in direct anti-state violence in the U.S. and Canada can be attributed to the different ideologies associated with the Sovereign Citizen (U.S.) and Freeman-on-the-Land (Canada) movements. These comments risk being overly broad, but I think they will provide a fairly useful point of departure. The Sovereign Citizen movement emerged largely from a rural and blue collar population of persons who had experienced economic pressure and who adopt conspiratorial anti-government and finance perspectives. This is also a population in the U.S. which is strongly associated with belief in an absolute right to private ownership of firearms and the associated 'militia' culture. These far right-wing groups perceive government as not only a financial but a liberty threat and this along with popular conspiracy theories has combined to produce a community of people who not only expect to encounter tyrannical government and elite presences, but to resist those pressures with force. The result has been a steady background level of armed confrontation and conflict with law enforcement.

In Canada our Freeman-on-the-Land movement emerges from a very different social component, and many of its advocates hold left of centre, conspiratorial, strongly environmentalist and anti-technology perspectives, basically an amalgam of old hippies, new-age types, Occupistas, and so on. This group, while very loud, tend to shy away from violent anti-state confrontation. They do not have (as much of) a myth of an impending police state. Canada also does not have a gun culture equivalent to that of the U.S., which has meant that while both the Sovereign Citizens and Canadian Freemen-on-the-Land have wildly conspiratorial, distorted beliefs, their ideologies are quite different. Interestingly, the low level of Canadian Freeman violence is emerging from a smaller subgroup of Canadian Freemen who wish to isolate themselves from state authority and control, as broadly as possible. The mainstream of the Canadian Freemen instead aim to get free stuff from the state while ignoring their social, legal, and tax-related obligations.

My take on the situation in Ireland is that your Freeman population matches neither of these models, but instead is largely driven by a large-scale economic crisis that has left many persons distressed. What I do see as a potential partial parallel to the Irish Freeman movement is an earlier and not especially well documented Canadian group, the Detaxers, who were operating from about 1995-2005, with a peak in 2002-2003. Detaxers used the very same pseudolegal strategies developed by the Sovereign Citizens, and then later used by the Canadian Freeman-on-the-Land movement. What made the Detaxers distinct is they made almost no attempt to apply those schemes to anything but income tax avoidance. Detaxers were often fairly wealthy persons such as business owners, and particularly professionals such as dentists and chiropractors.

The Detaxers operated from a relatively limited number of promoters, who rapidly recruited large groups of customers (usually "students"), who would then employ the Detaxer techniques to avoid paying income tax. The Detaxer phase was marked by large face-to-face social gatherings, both to promote ideas but also participate in court proceedings. The Detaxers demanded large amounts from their students; the most popular Detaxer guru, Russell Porisky, required his students pay a 7% "fee" on their total income. This movement used aggressive social and group marketing, and was quite effective until the Canadian Revenue Agency began to collect from Detaxer students and the gurus went to jail, at which point the movement collapsed.

This kind of social phenomenon reminds me of what you are seeing in Ireland at the moment. Our current Freeman-on-the-Land infestation is highly distributed and largely only networked by online means. Litigants very often operate in very small groups, or completely alone. We sometimes jest these are nothing but basement-dwellers and Internet warriors, but that is not far from the truth. During the Detaxer period persons were gambling very large sums on pseudolegal schemes, while the Freemen are, at best, marginal.

What I think is very interesting in watching Ireland is that the Irish Freemen have the potential to become a mass movement, even a genuine political phenomenon. That has never been the case in Canada. The Detaxers were probably the most successful group we have seen (population-wise), but they were never a populist phenomenon. Instead, it was a back-rooms business of sneaky dealers, devoid of much ideology or social purpose beyond greed. I am very curious to see how things will turn out in Ireland, as this is a scenario that is not duplicated in Canada, and only weakly reflected in the United States.

Last, a few more general comments. I would be very pleased to answer any questions persons may have on the OPCA phenomenon in Canada. It's been fun to see Meads v. Meads in use in your jurisdiction!

As a small plug, there are a number of individuals, including myself, who are trying to develop a broad-based commentary on persons and events in the Freeman, Sovereign, and quirkier pseudolegal groups on the Quatloos website. That website has a long-standing history of excellent analysis and commentary on U.S. activities of that kind, more recently that forum is discussing analogous events in other countries. There are a couple subforums dedicated to non-U.S. developments:

tax-related: http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewforum.php?f=46

non-tax related: http://www.quatloos.com/Q-Forum/viewforum.php?f=47

I have attempted to track the goings-on in Ireland and have done no justice to the many interesting developments in your country. I know I would be delighted to receive input from the Megamerge readers, and I suspect the other Quatloos readers would be equally interested.

After all, it's fun hauling out our respective freaks and kooks and thus contribute to the menagerie!

All the best - and thank you again for what you have collected and shared for readers domestic and overseas!

SMS Möwe

themadhair

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So what you are saying is that numerous members of a heated mob assaulting a security guard and verbally abusing and chasing him away is merely a risk of protesting? :rolleyes:

Using this a criteria for the label 'violent' would mean that teachers groups, abortion protesters, protesters from political parties, etc., qualify as being 'violent groups'. It's nonsense.

When we call the 'Sovereign Citizens' group in the US 'violent' we are referring to things like the McVeigh bombing, to when protesters brings guns with the intent of shooting people, to when nutjobs shots police at traffic stops, etc. The recent plan to kidnap, try and execute a cop is the sort of activity that qualifies that group for the label 'violent'.

NONE of that is happening in Ireland. The best on offer so far is incidents like that YouTube video, which represents a level of altercation that has adorned all sorts of protests in this country. Using that to label a group 'violent' is exaggeratory nonsense. That it is even being used as such just emphasises the gulf between the US 'Sovereign Citizens' and our local nutjobs.

Take the arrest video a few posts back – if it had of being US-style Sovereign Citizens you'd have needed a riot squad. There is no comparison to the US violence in any capacity.

Losty Dublin

themadhair wrote: »

Using this a criteria for the label 'violent' would mean that teachers groups, abortion protesters, protesters from political parties, etc., qualify as being 'violent groups'. It's nonsense.

When we call the 'Sovereign Citizens' group in the US 'violent' we are referring to things like the McVeigh bombing, to when protesters brings guns with the intent of shooting people, to when nutjobs shots police at traffic stops, etc. The recent plan to kidnap, try and execute a cop is the sort of activity that qualifies that group for the label 'violent'.

NONE of that is happening in Ireland. The best on offer so far is incidents like that YouTube video, which represents a level of altercation that has adorned all sorts of protests in this country. Using that to label a group 'violent' is exaggeratory nonsense. That it is even being used as such just emphasises the gulf between the US 'Sovereign Citizens' and our local nutjobs.

Take the arrest video a few posts back – if it had of being US-style Sovereign Citizens you'd have needed a riot squad. There is no comparison to the US violence in any capacity.

It isn't nonsense, though. What you are describing as "violent" is what we have gotten from from criminals or terrorist groups in the past; we have seen it before and it can't be justified in a civil society. What the Freemen/DDI have gotten up to in Ireland thus far may not meet your personal benchmark or level of what is "violent" but it doesn't mean that it hasn't been violent and it certainly does not begin to justify any violence either. One thing is certain; they will try to provoke and entice people to do worse than what went on in Kildare, given the chance.

donvito99

That post was so brilliantly written I'm reconsidering ever posting to boards again.

Bravo.

Boom__Boom

In terms of the Freemen in Ireland's potential for violence, I'm pretty sure I saw one of the spin-off republican groups at a protest in Dublin with what looked like Freeman inspired/related slogans.

Pretty much all of these Republican groups view the Irish state as an invalid/illegal/illegitimate entity, so I would say there is not a huge amount of ideological differences between rejecting the Irish state and rejecting any laws that the Irish state makes.

I would say that the potential for organised campaigns of violence isn't all that high but I wouldn't be surprised if the republican groups were looking to recruit from among those who look at Freemanism sympathetically.

The other area where I could see the potential for violence is if the anti-eviction/freemen groups are "protecting" a family farm. The Kildare stud farm was a case where the family home itself wasn't under threat. If it was an actual family farm home I could see matters being a lot more heated and a massive percentage of all the shotguns in Ireland are to be found on farms. I could very easily see such a situation ending up in bloodshed.

Marcusm

I love the commentary on the Balyphehane vt; the HSE is a business just like Tesco so it needs to carry on its business by taking offspring and fostering them. Hilarious.

Losty Dublin

Marcusm wrote: »

I love the commentary on the Balyphehane vt; the HSE is a business just like Tesco so it needs to carry on its business by taking offspring and fostering them. Hilarious.

The HSE. Every little 'un helps.

gizmo555

Marcusm wrote: »

I love the commentary on the Balyphehane vt; the HSE is a business just like Tesco so it needs to carry on its business by taking offspring and fostering them. Hilarious.

Well, that is exactly how for example, the Magdalene Laundries and the industrial schools functioned. They needed a steady supply of "fallen" women and "delinquent" children.