Is religion a farce?

Pompey Magnus

Deleted User wrote: »

True, but at least it gives them hope, rather than complete hopelessness.

I don't believe in religion personally (and never will), but these days I expect more to turn to religion as the economic situation continues worsen.

An analogy I once heard about this:

Imagine I put an ad in the local paper during this recession saying that I wish to help those struggling looking for work and that I had many excellent job contacts across the country and so I asked unemployed people to come visit me so I could get an idea of their skills, after they give me a small payment I would then promise to forward their CV to my my relevant contacts. Once they leave I proceed to bin their CV as I have no such contacts whatsoever.

They go home full of hope rather than the hopelessness they were in before they read my ad. Is what I did good just because I gave them hope? Of course it's not, it is the act of a complete dickhead. Why is religion any different?

KeithAFC

Don't know. Will find out when i die..

The Internet Explorer

Tiny Explosions wrote: »

Is that even a saying?:pac:

I wasn't referring to you by the way. I apologise if that's what you thought.

Marty McFly

ddef wrote: »

I think a lock would do this thread a world of good.
its been done to death already and people just start bickering once all the points of their arguments are used up.

Sorry if it has been but it was a genuine question.

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Funnily, the ones who are arguing that atheism can be moral are doing so in an incredibly immoral and undignified way.

How do you figure that? To be honest i wouldnt count myself as an atheist or religious i dont class myself that way i have my own beliefs and that is regardless of what bracket im in. But can you give a genuine reason for believing in religion when its proven in history the damage its done to humanity and also without any proven facts of Jesus, Heaven, Allah exsisting?

Or do you just believe on pure faith hope alone that there must be something better than this life out there?

zenno

ddef wrote: »

It gives billions of people hope and meaning every day of their lives.

you mean false hope ?. please not the invisible man thread again. :rolleyes:

Artur Foden

I don't believe in a god, or many of them. Nor am I particularly spiritual. But atheism is a farce as well. Just irritates me that people would make it their personal business to not accept that others have beliefs other to their own.

Real atheists: don't believe in god
Modern atheists: 'hey look, man, Im an atheist!!! religion totally suxs'

edit: and those who are religious, I for one do not think you are somehow stupid for doing so. that is all

Pompey Magnus

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

An analogy I once heard about this:

Imagine I put an ad in the local paper during this recession saying that I wish to help those struggling looking for work and that I had many excellent job contacts across the country and so I asked unemployed people to come visit me so I could get an idea of their skills, after they give me a small payment I would then promise to forward their CV to my my relevant contacts. Once they leave I proceed to bin their CV as I have no such contacts whatsoever.

They go home full of hope rather than the hopelessness they were in before they read my ad. Is what I did good just because I gave them hope? Of course it's not, it is the act of a complete dickhead. Why is religion any different?

Sums it up quite well.

Pompey Magnus

Artur Foden wrote: »

I don't believe in a god, or many of them. Nor am I particularly spiritual. But atheism is a farce as well. Just irritates me that people would make it their personal business to not accept that others have beliefs other to their own.

Real atheists: don't believe in god
Modern atheists: 'hey look, man, Im an atheist!!! religion totally suxs'

edit: and those who are religious, I for one do not think you are somehow stupid for doing so. that is all

The modern atheism you describe only exists because it is a reaction to the public nature of belief. If religious people kept their beliefs to themselves and held them privately then there would be no such thing as that modern atheism.

If religious people get irritated by having their ridiculous beliefs mocked then there is an extremely easy way to solve that problem. STOP PUBLICISING THEM.

Chuck Stone

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Morality is the main argument for religion these days.

No. No it's not. Show me the argument.

I know atheists rararant about morality being found in atheism, but I'm afraid that there is no reason for an atheist to act morally

Absolute rubbish.

People who claim to be religious but do highly immoral things are not religious, imo.

How very conveinient.

Atheists often go on about how religion is dogmatic

Religion is more dogmatic than it's not so that would be more true than false.

and only fools follow it,

I very much doubt people who don't believe in cultural superstitions would be so stupid to hold those views.

but I find some of the greatest fools are atheists who are just doing it to be cool,

What the hell is 'cool' about rejecting religion?

and many atheists thousands of times more persecuting and dogmatic than any religious people.

More rubbish.

I refuse to call myself an atheist under the grounds that I don't want to be associated with bigoted, dogmatic, thoughtless arseholes without any regard for a persons beliefs.

This is just bitterness and prejudice. I'm not against anyones personal beliefs as long as they stay personal and don't affect me. When those beliefs start to spill over into the wider population in an oppressive way is what gets people riled up.

If anything should be widespread in this day and age, it should be humanism, not atheism.

Bleh.

Personally, I think that raw atheism

Raw atheism? What's that then?

is the worst thing for society,

Why?

and in many ways a religion,

More nonsense.

with its own idols,

Which ones would they be then?

prophets,

Like who?

texts,

Like what?

and a set of beliefs.

and those would be?

Marty McFly

Artur Foden wrote: »

I don't believe in a god, or many of them. Nor am I particularly spiritual. But atheism is a farce as well. Just irritates me that people would make it their personal business to not accept that others have beliefs other to their own.

Real atheists: don't believe in god
Modern atheists: 'hey look, man, Im an atheist!!! religion totally suxs'

edit: and those who are religious, I for one do not think you are somehow stupid for doing so. that is all

That has to be the most sitting on the fence post ive ever read.

Chuck Stone

TimeToShine wrote: »

gives older people comfort i suppose, it's reassuring to think that there's something to look forward at the end of it all

This is an interesting point.

My Mother is a fairly devout Catholic and I think she gets a lot of comfort from her beliefs.

However, she doesn't say this, but I know she is really hurt by all the crap that has come out about how the institution thought that protecting itself was more important than protecting children.

I can tell that she feels betrayed and I'm angry on her behalf because she was betrayed, her trust was betrayed.

I used to argue with my parents as a younger person about religion and the church and all that.

Now? I just leave them alone because I know they feel bad enough as it is.

Tehachapi

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Morality is the main argument for religion these days. I know atheists rararant about morality being found in atheism, but I'm afraid that there is no reason for an atheist to act morally. People who claim to be religious but do highly immoral things are not religious, imo.
Atheists often go on about how religion is dogmatic and only fools follow it, but I find some of the greatest fools are atheists who are just doing it to be cool, and many atheists thousands of times more persecuting and dogmatic than any religious people.

I do not claim to be religious, but I refuse to call myself an atheist under the grounds that I don't want to be associated with bigoted, dogmatic, thoughtless arseholes without any regard for a persons beliefs. If anything should be widespread in this day and age, it should be humanism, not atheism. Personally, I think that raw atheism is the worst thing for society, and in many ways a religion, with its own idols, prophets, texts, and a set of beliefs.

ROFL!

Do you know what atheism is? Do you know what agnosticism is? Do you realise there are some people who think so logically that they have no CHOICE but to be atheist/agnostic? It's not some new "fad" like being emo or wearing red adidas tracksuit tops.

Your post is highly insulting to atheists and I suggest you research what the word actually means, saying phrases like "raw atheism" (as opposed to what - "mild atheism"?) just shows your levels of ignorance on the subject.

pragmatic1

Its a complete load of shyte. But whats more annoying than anything is the people sitting on the fence trying to claim some moral high ground between the two sides.

Big pat on the back lads. Well done.

Artur Foden

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

The modern atheism you describe only exists because it is a reaction to the public nature of belief. If religious people kept their beliefs to themselves and held them privately then there would be no such thing as that modern atheism.

If religious people get irritated by having their ridiculous beliefs mocked then there is an extremely easy way to solve that problem. STOP PUBLICISING THEM.

Yeh I know, but often those who get mocked are just every day people who don't advertise their religion. Most religious people keep their religions to themselves. Thats just my experience though

edit: Oh, and maybe some athiests should also keep their beliefs to themselves and stop publicising them? Ok thats hypocritical of me as in my original message I let everyone know.. anyway, I think its worth thinking about

Voodoo_rasher

http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

No, religion is not a farce. Neither is atheism. Neither is agnosticism. The validity of religion cannot be proved or disproved. The same goes for atheism/agnosticism. So let's all leave each other alone.

However I must say I have very little respect for people who act superior to others due to their beliefs, and this goes for any belief. I can't understand how someone could feel affected by what someone else believes to the point of needing to call their beliefs a farce and try to get them to question their religion/lack of (I'm not directing that at the OP).

As for religious wars, etc., the OP got it right here:

have used religion to excuse extreme acts of violence against humanity

It's used as an excuse for violence which would have erupted in some other way. Look at Palestine/Israel. The problem is often labelled as between religions, but the violence/conflict would happen no matter what two religions the two communities are. Same for Hitler. You think he wouldn't have killed anyone if Judaism didn't exist?

philologos

OP: If people didn't use violence they would use other factors such as ethnicity. Religion isn't the cause of such conflicts in most cases but is rather used as an excuse to go to war.

People screwing with belief to pursue their own selfish aims is a farce.

Personally I'm a Christian, so I believe and trust in the Gospel of Christ. Others might call that a farce but ultimately I find it powerfully convincing.

Handsome Bob

Religion again in AH you say? Only one possible response:

http://redux.com/stream/item/767312/Epic-Facepalm-Mosaic

B_Fanatic

Tiny Explosions wrote: »

well what you wrote was almost word for word what he said about 4 hours ago on the radio. Maybe great minds think alike. and all that...:)

... fools seldom differ. If religous people weren't so adamant and childish regarding their beliefs and were actually open to change (I.e. picking up a god damn book.... Of your OWN accord. No one is forcing you) you might realise why religion is poison to the human race. Obviously there are some who would have considered athiesm and other alternatives but were just not drawn in, I don't mean to generalise religion in its entirety.

After briefly continuing to look over the comments the level of ignorance and unsourced, just plain wrong statements is astounding.

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Funnily, the ones who are arguing that atheism can be moral are doing so in an incredibly immoral and undignified way.

Because arguing over the internet is immoral? Get over yourself, that's a horrible point to make.

MetalDog

Religion is the greatest confidence trick of all time, George Carlin says it better than I ever will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

holystungun9

ddef wrote: »

It gives billions of people hope and meaning every day of their lives.

Fair play to them, but it doesn't answer the OP's question.


p.s. the answer is yes, it's a load of crap. But hey, that's people for ya!

o1s1n

ddef wrote: »

It gives billions of people hope and meaning every day of their lives.

Ah, good oul hope.- the feeling you're doing something when in fact you're actually doing nothing.

HUNK

Well, if you try to look at religion rationally it tends to fall short.

Standard Toaster

Sign me up to the fabulous mythology of talking snakes and magical beings.
Go ahead and believe in a book written thousands of years ago by primitive men.
A book that advocates senseless murder, opposes homosexuality, slavery and the oppression of women has no place in our society today.


'<insert favorite deity here>' didn't create people, people created '<insert favorite deity here>'

krudler

keithob wrote: »

I think that religions are the biggest yarns ever told.. all of them...

Its just complete and other lies and story telling.

However i do believe that it has it positives in that in creates morals in a society gone absolutely crazy...and i reckn that without the religions of the world there would be more wars than ever..

example ... ive two young children... they will be educated in the irish education system which is tied in with the catholic church... and hence they will be reared good irish catholics

however i nor my partner believe in the church but we do think it will teach our kids good morals and help develop them as ''good citizens'' of this strange world...

and that right there is the reason the church has had such a long influence on "catholics" lives. you want your children to be educated by a homophobic, corrupt to its core organistation for their own "good"? really?

nozzferrahhtoo

luvbulmers01 wrote: »

can people justify a reason to believe in religions in this day and age?

I have yet to hear any justification for it alas. I guess it is like Fashion in some ways. There is no rationale or justification behind many aspects of fashion. It just in many cases is what people want.

ddef wrote: »

It gives billions of people hope and meaning every day of their lives.

That sounds good on paper but alas it is not a good thing by default. Self delusion might give fleeting hope or comfort, but the question is how is that book balanced? In the long run is self delusion or lying to others justifiable simply because of some feeling of fleeting hope or comfort it gives... especially in the light of many of the downsides of this particular self delusion?

Alas I think the answer may be "no" more often than those of a religious bent would like.

ddef wrote: »

christianity has been going for over 2000 years, and more for much longer. hard to believe it will disappear after all the aul ones kick the bucket.

Maybe not when this generation of old ones depart, but the trend certainly is in that direction. The facts we have actually show atheism to be one of the fastest growing minorities, countries like Germany have for the first time got more people leaving certain faiths as joining and we have people writing articles like this one highlighting the countries in which Religion is likely to first become extinct.

As a man better than me pointed out, people who worshiped at the hagga sophia may have felt like you that it was unlikely their religion would ever change or die, but it went from a church to being a mosque to being nothing much more than a museum now. So who knows, maybe the Vatican some day will become the EU museum of Roman Catholicism or Mecca will be bought out and rebranded "Disneys magic kingdom of allah". The future is unknown to us but the trends are promising.

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I'm afraid that there is no reason for an atheist to act morally.

Actually there are plenty of reasons. They just do not claim that those reasons are grounded in some objective invisible beardy sky fairy. Our reasons for being moral may be partially subjective etc, but there are certainly reasons.

At the end of the day we are a social species who want to live together socially. The "reasons" to act morally therefore are merely because we want that to work. That is all morality is at the end of the day... the list of rules we create as a species in order to best live together in a way that the majority of us desire.

Maybe that is not reason enough for YOU or not the reasons you want or require, but it is certainly not "no reasons".

Artur Foden wrote: »

I don't believe in a god, or many of them. Nor am I particularly spiritual. But atheism is a farce as well. Just irritates me that people would make it their personal business to not accept that others have beliefs other to their own.

If personal faith remained personal then the strawman you just erected might actually be valid. However most "atheists" do not care what people believe in their own time. The reason the atheist movements exist today is as a reaction to the fact that personal belief does NOT stay personal. People take that belief and try to enter our halls of power, education and science with them and set policy based on them.

The two analogies I often use to describe how an atheist feels are as follows:

1) Most of us do not care what people wear in golf clubs. We may think their checkered pants are comical and ridiculous but it is no skin off our nose that they insist on wearing them. How would you feel however if they LEFT the golf clubs and started insisting that we all wear those pants too?

2) Imagine you were a politician, educator or scientist. Imagine someone comes in with a page of entirely unsubstantiated statistics and tried to set policy based on those statistics but refused in ANY way to back them up or even tell you where they got them. Would you not resist the use of those statistics? Would you not think it poor form if that person pretended to be offended that you would not just accept their page of numbers? That is how atheists are. People are coming into our halls of power, education and science with an idea of a "god" that is not only entirely unsubstantiated... but they refuse to even TRY when asked to substantiate them... pretending instead to be offended that we even ask or that we are the bad guys for not "respecting" their belief. I am not sure when "respecting a belief" got redefined to mean "accepting it as true without question" but I for one am not about to pander to that definition. Ever.

BBDBB

So pointing out the weaknesses/flaws and downsides of someone elses beliefs or lack of beliefs makes your own beliefs or lack of them somehow superior and makes you a wiser better person.


right, gotcha


fascinating stuff After Hours, seems like you got it all sussed

Irish Guitarist

So you're worried about people being persecuted because of their religion but then you say you want to get rid of religion? Wouldn't that be persecution?

As for the Nazis, they persecuted plenty of people (gypsies, the mentally and physically handicapped and homosexuals just to mention a few), not just Jews. I believe Hitler cared very little about religion and more about ethnicity. There's also plenty of stories of priests and nuns risking their lives by hiding Jews from the Nazis.

nozzferrahhtoo

Although "getting rid" of religion would be one way to achieve the goals of most atheists, it certainly is not the goal of most atheists. As I said in my last post above.... most atheists would have no trouble with personal faith IF it remained personal. As Christopher Hitchens says however "Religion does not appear to make some people happy. They can not be happy until we all believe it too".

However to counter your point in another way, pointing out peoples bad, wrong or dangerous ideas is not "persecution". It is actually a sign of my respect and love for my fellow man that I wish to invest so much of my short life in helping divest our species of erroneous and bad ideas. If I simply did not care about people I would not bother.

COYW

TimeToShine wrote: »

but religion won't have much if any impact on the next generation.

Hardly, considering that the vast majority of people in this country still go to the church when it comes to weddings, christenings, ..... I think that religion will survive for many years to come. The days of people flocking to mass/service every Sunday are gone but religion will still come into play for major events such as the above.