Download Illegally? You're no better than the looters.

LighterGuy · 12-08-2011 10:06PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Copying is illegal yes, but is it theft? no. Nor is it breaking and entering or criminal damage. You wouldn't be tried for theft for downloading films you would be tried for copyright infringement afaik? so if that's the case they are different but both illegal.

But as you say, both illegal.
And thats one thing I hate about people when the discussion about downloading pops up.

You get dozens and dozens of people just spouting BS crap ... "oh its not theft as the law of theft states blah blah blah" or "its only copyright infringement its not stealing" blah blah blah :rolleyes: ... all just BS crap. Twisting or rationalizing it. While the simple fact is you obtained something illegally. You didnt pay for it.

Why on earth dont people just go "is downloading illegal? yes. Do I care or will stop? no." ... call a spade a spade. Do people honestly have to twist it so they feel more of a better person :rolleyes:

Mickeroo · 12-08-2011 10:15PM

LighterGuy wrote: »

But as you say, both illegal.
And thats one thing I hate about people when the discussion about downloading pops up.

You get dozens and dozens of people just spouting BS crap ... "oh its not theft as the law of theft states blah blah blah" or "its only copyright infringement its not stealing" blah blah blah :rolleyes: ... all just BS crap. Twisting or rationalizing it. While the simple fact is you obtained something illegally. You didnt pay for it.

Why on earth dont people just go "is downloading illegal? yes. Do I care or will stop? no." ... call a spade a spade. Do people honestly have to twist it so they feel a more of a better person :rolleyes:

I get what you're saying and I agree with you to an extent but it's not stealing, it's just completely innacurate to call it stealing. It's totally illegal regardless of course and I'd never deny that, but I'm never going to feel bad about doing it either, didn't feel bad when I used to tape films off the telly or tape songs off the radio either.

Liam Byrne · 12-08-2011 10:18PM

twinQuins wrote: »

Unless of course someone (or some group of people) decided to develop a new car.

But of course, without monetary recompense humanity is doomed to a fate of utter stagnation...

Not so much stagnation as death from exposure and starvation. People need wages.

Would love if they didn't fixate on silly money profits, though......society would be far, far better.

argosy2006 · 12-08-2011 10:22PM

So if a friend of mine buys a CD, and plays it in my company i should block my ears coz i never paid for it, Or if he shares CD with me i should go pay store more money>?
SHARING IS GOOD,
WE WERE ALL THOUGHT THAT
IF SOMEONE WHO PAID BIG MONEY FOR A PIECE OF SOFTWARE WANTS TO SHARE, THEN SO BE IT!
Its not stealing, its sharing!!

Mickeroo · 12-08-2011 10:27PM

argosy2006 wrote: »

So if a friend of mine buys a CD, and plays it in my company i should block my ears coz i never paid for it, Or if he shares CD with me i should go pay store more money>?
SHARING IS GOOD,
WE WERE ALL THOUGHT THAT
IF SOMEONE WHO PAID BIG MONEY FOR A PIECE OF SOFTWARE WANTS TO SHARE, THEN SO BE IT!
Its not stealing, its sharing!!

Sharing is against copyright infringement laws.

Frank Black · 12-08-2011 10:33PM

argosy2006 wrote: »

So if a friend of mine buys a CD, and plays it in my company i should block my ears coz i never paid for it, Or if he shares CD with me i should go pay store more money>?
SHARING IS GOOD,
WE WERE ALL THOUGHT THAT
IF SOMEONE WHO PAID BIG MONEY FOR A PIECE OF SOFTWARE WANTS TO SHARE, THEN SO BE IT!
Its not stealing, its sharing!!

Seriously!

That's not what we're talking about here.

Mike 1972 · 12-08-2011 10:36PM

TBH the poll could do with an "I never download (anymore) but dont have any problem with those who do"

LighterGuy wrote: »

Why on earth dont people just go "is downloading illegal? yes. Do I care or will stop? no." ... call a spade a spade. Do people honestly have to twist it so they feel more of a better person :rolleyes:

TBH unless there is a serious risk of being caught nobody really gives a damn whether any file sharing/downloading they may be engaged in is legal or not

A few (mostly misguided) people might have concerns over whether it is ethical but thats an entirely different matter.

Personally I almost never download/fileshare not because Im bothered about the legality of ethics of it but because
1) I already have more music than Im ever going to have time to listen to.
2) There is very little in the way of new music/films that Im particularly interested in and Im not into gaming.
3) A lot of the Software/warez floating around the net is either crap or riddled with trojans/viruses/spyware.

Yahew · 12-08-2011 10:37PM

argosy2006 wrote: »

So if a friend of mine buys a CD, and plays it in my company i should block my ears coz i never paid for it, Or if he shares CD with me i should go pay store more money>?
SHARING IS GOOD,
WE WERE ALL THOUGHT THAT
IF SOMEONE WHO PAID BIG MONEY FOR A PIECE OF SOFTWARE WANTS TO SHARE, THEN SO BE IT!
Its not stealing, its sharing!!

Listening is "fair use". Copying is illegal.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-08-2011 10:48PM

Yahew wrote: »

Listening is "fair use". Copying is illegal.

We don't have "fair use" here.

http://www.williamfry.ie/publication-article/incoming_government_promises_move_towards_us_style_fair_use_copyright_test.aspx

Currently, Irish copyright law operates for the benefit the content creators (i.e. authors, musicians etc). Intermediaries (i.e. YouTube, Eircom, UPC, Boards.ie, etc) and content users must rely on a number of limited exceptions (such as fair dealing and educational usage) when using copyrighted material (other than under licence) so as not to infringe the creator’s rights.

Yahew · 12-08-2011 10:49PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

TBH the poll could do with an "I never download (anymore) but dont have any problem with those who do"

LighterGuy wrote: »

Why on earth dont people just go "is downloading illegal? yes. Do I care or will stop? no." ... call a spade a spade. Do people honestly have to twist it so they feel more of a better person :rolleyes:

TBH unless there is a serious risk of being caught nobody really gives a damn whether any file sharing/downloading they may be engaged in is legal or not

A few (mostly misguided) people might have concerns over whether it is ethical but thats an entirely different matter.

Personally I almost never download/fileshare not because Im bothered about the legality of ethics of it but because
1) I already have more music than Im ever going to have time to listen to.
2) There is very little in the way of new music/films that Im particularly interested in and Im not into gaming.
3) A lot of the Software/warez floating around the net is either crap or riddled with trojans/viruses/spyware.

That's not an ethical argument and it is not anything but a dull anecdote.

The hypocrisy is sickening here. Two people got about 100 thanks on page one for inane nonsense about leaving a copy of the software behind. Meanwhile a looter was jailed for stealing a bottle of water.

If a looter had stolen a DVD with Adobe CS on it , worth £1000+ she would have faced a very stiff sentence. More than someone who stole a blank DVD. The difference in price is the value of the software on the DVD. Yet according to page 1 it shouldn't matter because a copy of Adobe CS still exists.

That's not a legal or ethical.

Yahew · 12-08-2011 10:50PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

LighterGuy wrote: »

But as you say, both illegal.
And thats one thing I hate about people when the discussion about downloading pops up.

You get dozens and dozens of people just spouting BS crap ... "oh its not theft as the law of theft states blah blah blah" or "its only copyright infringement its not stealing" blah blah blah :rolleyes: ... all just BS crap. Twisting or rationalizing it. While the simple fact is you obtained something illegally. You didnt pay for it.

Why on earth dont people just go "is downloading illegal? yes. Do I care or will stop? no." ... call a spade a spade. Do people honestly have to twist it so they feel a more of a better person :rolleyes:

I get what you're saying and I agree with you to an extent but it's not stealing, it's just completely innacurate to call it stealing. It's totally illegal regardless of course and I'd never deny that, but I'm never going to feel bad about doing it either, didn't feel bad when I used to tape films off the telly or tape songs off the radio either.

In reality it is stealing. From the people who produced the items you are taking.

Mike 1972 · 12-08-2011 10:53PM

Yahew wrote: »

If a looter had stolen a DVD with Adobe CS on it , worth £1000+ she would have faced a very stiff sentence. More than someone who stole a blank DVD. The difference in price is the value of the software on the DVD. Yet according to page 1 it shouldn't matter because a copy of Adobe CS still exists.

:rolleyes: If at this stage you STILL dont understand the difference between copying and stealing then I dont see much point in trying to help you any further .

And you can accuse people of "hypocrisy" all you like but there hardly a person in the country who has ever used a computer/video recorder/photocopier/audio recorder in a position to take the moral high ground when it comes to copyright infringement.

GOODNIGHT !

Mickeroo · 12-08-2011 10:54PM

Yahew wrote: »

In reality it is stealing. From the people who produced the items you are taking.

No in reality ie the eyes of the law, it's copyright infringement. In your opinion it's stealing.

Derek! · 12-08-2011 10:56PM

It's not stealin to me because anything I download I wouldn't have bought anyway.

iguana · 12-08-2011 10:57PM

bluewolf wrote: »

My no better?

Anyway it's more equivalent to going into the shops, making exact copies and leaving the originals undisturbed...

Or reading an article in a newspaper at the news stand but not buying it. It's not 100% right as you are benefiting from someone's work without remunerating them but you aren't taking it forever and stopping someone else from purchasing it.

Besides strange as it sounds, it does appear at present that items which are popular pirate downloads do better commercially as many people pay for the item after viewing it for free who would never have purchased it otherwise.

Yahew · 12-08-2011 10:59PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yahew wrote: »

In reality it is stealing. From the people who produced the items you are taking.

No in reality ie the eyes of the law, it's copyright infringement. In your opinion it's stealing.

It's clearly theft of someones product.

There is no difference between stealing the DVD with Adobe CS and downloading the software illegally. In both cases a "copy" exists. The only extra theft is the DVD but that price is insignificant. Illegal downloading also costs businesses money. Small businesses too, like indie devs.

Yahew · 12-08-2011 11:02PM

iguana wrote: »

bluewolf wrote: »

My no better?

Anyway it's more equivalent to going into the shops, making exact copies and leaving the originals undisturbed...

Or reading an article in a newspaper at the news stand but not buying it. It's not 100% right as you are benefiting from someone's work without remunerating them but you aren't taking it forever and stopping someone else from purchasing it.

Besides strange as it sounds, it does appear at present that items which are popular pirate downloads do better commercially as many people pay for the item after viewing it for free who would never have purchased it otherwise.

More likely "copying" the entire paper every day by taking pictures of every page, and going home to read it all. the shop would bar you relatively soon.

Mickeroo · 12-08-2011 11:05PM

Yahew wrote: »

It's clearly theft of someones product.

There is no difference between stealing the DVD with Adobe CS and downloading the software illegally. In both cases a "copy" exists. The only extra theft is the DVD but that price is insignificant. Illegal downloading also costs businesses money. Small businesses too, like indie devs.

There is a difference, if I download nobody knows I've got it, if I steal the CD someone will know it's gone. If I get caught downloading I'll get done for copyright infringement, if I get caught stealing the CD I get done for shoplifting/theft. The difference is clear.

Frank Black · 12-08-2011 11:07PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

you've been brainwashed

Naw, I just avoid trying to construct arguments to justify something I know is wrong but that I still do anyway. I'm morally conflicted about the whole issue tbh.
Anyone who tries to turn this into a linguistic argument about the legal definition of theft or stealing is missing the point.

What's the difference between looting a DVD from Tesco and downloading the same movie from the Internet?

Mickeroo · 12-08-2011 11:08PM

Yahew wrote: »

More likely "copying" the entire paper every day by taking pictures of every page, and going home to read it all. the shop would bar you relatively soon.

Bar you but not get you arrested for shoplifting.

black francis wrote: »

What's the difference between looting a DVD from Tesco and downloading the same movie from the Internet?

Tesco don't miss out.

Chuck Stone · 12-08-2011 11:09PM

Mena wrote: »

How is it grey? You're stealing it and that's the end of it.

Copper_pipe wrote: »

if you download illegally you are stealing IMO

Stealing what?

It's not a physical thing. The only reason it's illegal is because some people say so.

Why should someone who is not producing anything of value such as bread or milk be paid because they feel like they should?

Capt'n Midnight · 12-08-2011 11:10PM

iguana wrote: »

Besides strange as it sounds, it does appear at present that items which are popular pirate downloads do better commercially as many people pay for the item after viewing it for free who would never have purchased it otherwise.

cba looking it up bit IIRC MrGates is on record about software copying in china saying if they are going to copy stuff he'd rather it was microsofts. the competitiors can't compete with zero cost software and it creates a bigger eco system which the BSA can then rake in later on

for Music, bands break even with the record companies (dodgy pricing etc) and only profit from tours and merchantise

my belief on music is that people will spend a finite amount on it and if it's cheaper they will buy more albums and if more expensive they will buy less, the difference is that at the lower end of the scale people won't buy a single album if the price is too high.

IIRC it was on a BBC Radio 4 program that they said that the amound of GDP spend on lighting was something like 0.15% , and this figure is constant as far back as you can work these things out, certainly back to the bronze age and oil lamps. The reason we have more light nowadays is that it is cheaper rather than we want more of it. Perhaps the same could be true of music.

Frank Black · 12-08-2011 11:12PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Stealing what?

It's not a physical thing. The only reason it's illegal is because some people say so.

Why should someone who is not producing anything of value such as bread or milk be paid because they feel like they should?

Who decides what is of value or not?

Chuck Stone · 12-08-2011 11:14PM

black francis wrote: »

Who decides what is of value or not?

You tell me.

If I think something has value then I'll pay for it.

Frank Black · 12-08-2011 11:19PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You tell me.

If I think something has value then I'll pay for it.

Why download something if you feel it has no value?

Derek! · 12-08-2011 11:23PM

black francis wrote: »

Why download something if you feel it has no value?

Some people do this first to see if they feel it's worth paying for, then decide whether to buy or not.

Chuck Stone · 12-08-2011 11:24PM

black francis wrote: »

Why download something if you feel it has no value?

To see if it has value?

I recently downloaded an eBook and had a quick scan of it and thought 'hmmm this is good stuff' and bought the hard copy.

The diference between the harde copy and the download is that the download cost nothing but the book will cost the price of the manufacturing and distribution and it's tipping my hat to the work of the author.

Personally, I have grave reservations about some copyright laws. You have massive corporations (fictional entities) like Sony using tax payers money to enforce their view of the world which makes them very very rich.

Frank Black · 12-08-2011 11:39PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

To see if it has value?

I recently downloaded an eBook and had a quick scan of it and thought 'hmmm this is good stuff' and bought the hard copy.

The difference between the harder copy and the download is that the download cost nothing but the book will cost the price of the manufacturing and distribution and it's tipping my hat to the work of the author.

Personally, I have grave reservations about some copyright laws. You have massive corporations (fictional entities) like Sony using tax payers money to enforce their view of the world which makes them very very rich.

So anything you download that you feel has any 'value' you purchase legally?
And anything you download that has 'no value' you don't purchase.
I doubt it.

I'm sure there's loads of stuff you watched, read or listened that you felt had some 'value' but weren't arsed to actually buy.

Chuck Stone · 12-08-2011 11:47PM

black francis wrote: »

So anything you download that you feel has any 'value' you purchase legally?

Yep 'legally'.

And anything you download that has 'no value' you don't purchase. I doubt it.

I actually don't download stuff unless it really interests me. I'm not one of those people who download stuff because they feel like they're getting away with something.

I'm sure there's loads of stuff you watched, read or listened that you felt had some 'value' but weren't arsed to actually buy.

Anything I have watched or listened to has been freely availiable on the web.

Granted I'm not really into movies or collecting albums so it's easier for me to avoid breaking their laws.

colinod0806 · 12-08-2011 11:48PM

I download tv shows all the time but only because I cant wait to see them. And i almost always watch them when they're shown over here anyway so I can't see a problem with that.

On the other hand I download a lot of music and I have no way to justify this. I can't even blame the price because tbh even if it was a lot cheaper I think I would still probably download it.

I still don't feel bad about it though.

Download Illegally? You're no better than the looters.

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