Bull Proofs out monday-

stanflt

oman on the rise again in ebi

Min

Good, I used a lot of Oman's sons

Looking forward to the updates on the ICBF site.

pakalasa

stanflt wrote: »

oman on the rise again in ebi

How do you know there're out on Monday, Stanflt?

whelan1

not being smart but is there anything new ? oman has been around a while now and those who used him at the beginning are getting hard to find bulls to use , just a complaint that i have heard a good few times

stanflt

whelan1 wrote: »

not being smart but is there anything new ? oman has been around a while now and those who used him at the beginning are getting hard to find bulls to use , just a complaint that i have heard a good few times

no problems finding any bulls for oman daughters-hva roz

they dont have to have sky high ebi when your herd base is already 100+

stanflt

pakalasa wrote: »

How do you know there're out on Monday, Stanflt?

oman up 17points me think- icbf website has publication dates

mjcom4d

When are the beef proofs out

funny man

stanflt wrote: »

no problems finding any bulls for oman daughters-hva roz

they dont have to have sky high ebi when your herd base is already 100+

wouldn't use either of the above both poor figures for fertility +50,+60 is too low for anyone with high empty rates or long calving intervals.

if you herd is 100+ i thought you needed higher ebi to get the same percentage gain as someone with <€100ebi, the higher the gain the more money that heifer leaves behind?

whelan1

funny man wrote: »

wouldn't use either of the above both poor figures for fertility +50,+60 is too low for anyone with high empty rates or long calving intervals.

if you herd is 100+ i thought you needed higher ebi to get the same percentage gain as someone with <€100ebi, the higher the gain the more money that heifer leaves behind?

my point exactly... there is no suitable replacement for oman if we want to continue increasing ebi

stanflt

funny man wrote: »

wouldn't use either of the above both poor figures for fertility +50,+60 is too low for anyone with high empty rates or long calving intervals.

if you herd is 100+ i thought you needed higher ebi to get the same percentage gain as someone with <€100ebi, the higher the gain the more money that heifer leaves behind?

not at all- last year we sold nearly 40calved heifers, the ones with the lower EBI (vg 85)made well over 2k average while the high ebi less fancy (g83 and g84)avg only 1700

hva has 15kg prot from only 220kg milk

prot pays the bills- need bulls like these to lift the herd prot to 3.6in the dairys which is currently at 3.48prot

stanflt

whelan1 wrote: »

my point exactly... there is no suitable replacement for oman if we want to continue increasing ebi

how reliable is ebi-

i did an exercise on my herd this year to prove that fertilility is down to management-
next year calving interval will be below 390- this wont change my fertility on ebi

you could have 100point on ebi for fertility but if you dont look after or feed your cows theyll never go incalf or hold

funny man

whelan1 wrote: »

my point exactly... there is no suitable replacement for oman if we want to continue increasing ebi

i agree with you whelan and i think you are going about it in the right way by using british friesian, i have also took action by crossbreeding to jersey to improve fertility as i believe OMAN is a freak of nature and very few of his sons will pass the better fertility genes on, NZ farmers made the same mistake by using sons of HUGO which none to my knowledge have exceeded their sire. a word of warning alot of the crossbreeding done to date has been with sub-optimal sires and will give little gain if any, so choose a breed and pick from the top and if its fertility atleast a +€100 to see any improvements.

5live

stanflt wrote: »

how reliable is ebi-

i did an exercise on my herd this year to prove that fertilility is down to management-
next year calving interval will be below 390- this wont change my fertility on ebi

you could have 100point on ebi for fertility but if you dont look after or feed your cows theyll never go incalf or hold

True enough. EBI is only an indication and will indicate which bulls are, on average, leaving better milkers and better cows for fertility. The sum of money is the figure arrived at over the whole number of tested animals. And a bull with an EBI of 300 wont necessarily rise the daughters EBI by 150 in your herd but will on average across the whole country increase the daughters EBI by half the difference of the cow and bulls EBI.

And even the best holstein cow wont milk if not fed just as the best fertility cow wont go in calf if not fed. And a crap cow if well fed can give 365 day calving interval and 1600 gals but that doesnt mean she is a world beater

funny man

stanflt wrote: »

not at all- last year we sold nearly 40calved heifers, the ones with the lower EBI (vg 85)made well over 2k average while the high ebi less fancy (g83 and g84)avg only 1700

hva has 15kg prot from only 220kg milk

prot pays the bills- need bulls like these to lift the herd prot to 3.6in the dairys which is currently at 3.48prot

depending on who is buying on my travels the guys with the high EBI don't need to purchase replacements unless they are expanding, so the market you are selling into is mostly guys who have poor fertility and a high replacment rate so the HO/fr breeder type people just keep buying the pretty ones even though they will probaly will go to the factory after 3.3 (ave) lactations.

protein only pays the bills if your costs aren't exasurbated by feeding extra dry cows to achieve this, carring cows empty and having to be replaced after 3-4 years milking.

funny man

stanflt wrote: »

how reliable is ebi-

i did an exercise on my herd this year to prove that fertilility is down to management-
next year calving interval will be below 390- this wont change my fertility on ebi

you could have 100point on ebi for fertility but if you dont look after or feed your cows theyll never go incalf or hold

i did an exercise on my herd this year to prove that fertilility is down to management-
next year calving interval will be below 390- this wont change my fertility on ebi

i'd love to see this exercise as you could save the farmers in this country (and other countries)a small fortune, USA average laction is 2.5 and that is on mostly indoor systems with high cow management as anything less will not make profit. if your EBI is high for fertility 390 days is not great and your management is top class so has it more to do with selling stock to improve your calving interval than management.

you could have 100point on ebi for fertility but if you dont look after or feed your cows theyll never go incalf or hold

i agree, but you can feed the cows all you want and if they are bred for high milk (400day+CI =poor fert si) they wont calve on 365days (round pin square hole).

bogman_bass

mjcom4d wrote: »

When are the beef proofs out

tomorrow afternoon also

some good gibor soons coming through with ebis around 200
also
LHZ has an ebi of 229 and CWP 202 and and are oman free

stanflt

very negative for type:eek:

unsaleable stock imo

linebacker52

stanflt wrote: »

very negative for type:eek:

unsaleable stock imo

alot of people me inculded dont care about type. when im buying stock the only thing i worry about is ebi i dont care what they look like.

dar31

linebacker52 wrote: »

alot of people me inculded dont care about type. when im buying stock the only thing i worry about is ebi i dont care what they look like.[/QUOTE

against my better judgement, id have to disagree, ebi is only a guide, it is still very important to look at the sub traits, type in particular.
in order to have a good low cost animal capable of walking long distances to paddocks, less mastitis, good udders type dose need a look in.
to what extent i dont know, but it dose need a look in.

bogman_bass

type is fine if you are selling stock but if you are just breading replacements for your own herd I dont think it matters. You are milking cows not running a beauty contest

Min

One can also use the EBI when selecting a bull for health traits to go along with the milk and fertility traits that you want.

So you don't have to worry about type as the EBI tells you regarding SCC and lameness.

I think the EBI system has been a great advance as it was no good having a great cow to milk but was very difficult to get back in calf due to no fault of the farmer.

jeff greene

bogman_bass wrote: »

tomorrow afternoon also

some good gibor soons coming through with ebis around 200
also
LHZ has an ebi of 229 and CWP 202 and and are oman free

Yuck, no thanks:cool:

linebacker52 wrote: »

alot of people me inculded dont care about type. when im buying stock the only thing i worry about is ebi i dont care what they look like.

God help us all! So don't trust your eyes and intuition, trust a computer generated number:eek:

Min wrote: »

One can also use the EBI when selecting a bull for health traits to go along with the milk and fertility traits that you want.

So you don't have to worry about type as the EBI tells you regarding SCC and lameness.

I think the EBI system has been a great advance as it was no good having a great cow to milk but was very difficult to get back in calf due to no fault of the farmer.

Lameness and SCC are only 3.6% of the EBI, now anyone that milked cows knows legs and udders are more important than that.

pakalasa

When you say "Type" what comes under that? Feet, udder, what about the squarness of the frame?
Maybe you should consider where all the rejects end up - in the Irish beef industry?
Those narrow front shoulder that I see on most holsteins any much use to the beef guy!

jeff greene

pakalasa wrote: »

When you say "Type" what comes under that? Feet, udder, what about the squarness of the frame?
Maybe you should consider where all the rejects end up - in the Irish beef industry?
Those narrow front shoulder that I see on most holsteins any much use to the beef guy!

Why should I worry about the beef guy? I'm selling milk and holsteins are the best for that. Chest width is important to me, I hate seeing the front legs coming out of the same hole, but not for the beef guy but for capacity and locomotion

pakalasa

Beef Proofs are up on ICBF.com now guys.

Ross Alo (AZL) still looking good - I used him on a few this year.
Cottage Devon (DEZ) - calving gone through the roof, now at 21%. A scandal considering the way NCBC marketed him, when he was bought first.

linebacker52

God help us all! So don't trust your eyes and intuition, trust a computer generated number:eek:




yes i do trust ebi and its working out very well for me thank you every much.if your using high ebi bulls type is not important for commerical stock.

mjcom4d

There's a bull in the beef proofs called pallette he's an RB bull anyone know why this breed and also why there's no Piedmontese bulls on the list

Pacoa

Pallette is a Rotbunt methinks.

mjcom4d

Pacoa wrote: »

Pallette is a Rotbunt methinks.

Dairy ?

mjcom4d

Pacoa wrote: »

Pallette is a Rotbunt methinks.

Dairy ?

Pacoa

If you mean can you milk them then the answer is yes. Rotbunts are used on dairy cows as a cross breed. More beef less milk and high solids.

mjcom4d

Pacoa wrote: »

If you mean can you milk them then the answer is yes. Rotbunts are used on dairy cows as a cross breed. More beef less milk and high solids.

Alrite thanks a bit like simmentals

funny man

i do agree with the need to breed for type when selecting bulls, i think it should be included for ebi purposes but based on a cow that will last(good feet, udder) not on a show ring type where they reward for stature. What is needed is a simple report filled in by the farmer on cow type, on a scale of 1-10 on the important ones. Breeders can still use their classification for selecting and everyone would be happy.

As Ho/FR goes it would be a good day when any farmer has the luxuary to cull a cow for bad feet or a bad udder, i remember my old man culling a cow cause her udder was draging through the muddy gaps but she was 14 years old so i wouldn't hold that again her, i on the other hand have bred the herd up to pedigree and selected heavily for type and milk and see lovely 3rd and 4th lactation cows go to the factory every year, not saying anything against type but without fertility we will always have high carry-over or replacement rates in our herds.

funny man

Got a look at the lastest run this morning, good to see most of the oman sons proofs have increased, just wondering is that more to do with OMANs own EBI increasing than his sons daughters lactations coming through. dissapointed to see RXR a heavily pushed bull by NCBC falling back.


I will repeat what i said in another post; be very wary of advise from people that should know better when it comes to bull selection!

whelan1

as our teagasc man said the reliability if the figures is another thing, as the number of daughters increase some of the bulls mightnt be as great as we first thought:rolleyes:

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

Got a look at the lastest run this morning, good to see most of the oman sons proofs have increased, just wondering is that more to do with OMANs own EBI increasing than his sons daughters lactations coming through. dissapointed to see RXR a heavily pushed bull by NCBC falling back.


I will repeat what i said in another post; be very wary of advise from people that should know better when it comes to bull selection!

Quite a drop I guess alright, almost 200kgs of milk and 13kgs of solids and almost a day CI, €60 drop since last Aug.. But then again it shows how over inflated genomic bulls are, this is a daughter based proof now. Just look at AXN and MXZ, both EBIs are way ahead of other Goldwyn and Shottle sons, I'll take a daughter based proof every time

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

i do agree with the need to breed for type when selecting bulls, i think it should be included for ebi purposes but based on a cow that will last(good feet, udder) not on a show ring type where they reward for stature. What is needed is a simple report filled in by the farmer on cow type, on a scale of 1-10 on the important ones. Breeders can still use their classification for selecting and everyone would be happy.

Why does everyone harp on about the show ring when type is mentions, type basically gives an indication of what the cow will look like physically, breeding blindly with no regard to it is madness. I don't even classify but thats not to say, I want to work with ugly cows, I take pride in them and find it rewarding to have a good looking herd of cows, trying to improve with every generation.

On EBI why cant they devise another sub index or seperate index to account for type, the UK has PLI and PIN for examle.

whelan1

spoke with an ai man today, he said the amount of people looking for a non oman bull is mad, its crazy that there is no real alternative out there

pakalasa

whelan1 wrote: »

spoke with an ai man today, he said the amount of people looking for a non oman bull is mad, its crazy that there is no real alternative out there

Oman wouldn't want to have a genetic deficiency, would he?

Pauric Mc

did any of ye use axn or mxz yet?

funny man

jeff greene wrote: »

Why does everyone harp on about the show ring when type is mentions, type basically gives an indication of what the cow will look like physically, breeding blindly with no regard to it is madness. I don't even classify but thats not to say, I want to work with ugly cows, I take pride in them and find it rewarding to have a good looking herd of cows, trying to improve with every generation.

On EBI why cant they devise another sub index or seperate index to account for type, the UK has PLI and PIN for examle.

type as i know it is based on a scoring system that credits cows for being large, wide, with points for looking good, so when you say that you don't want to work with ugly cows, to me you are into show ring type cows and there is no harm in saying it, i on the other hand will try to pick cows that will hopefully leave me more profit than their dams and last at lot longer.

funny man

Pauric Mc wrote: »

did any of ye use axn or mxz yet?

no liquid milk here.

jeff greene

funny man wrote: »

type as i know it is based on a scoring system that credits cows for being large, wide, with points for looking good, so when you say that you don't want to work with ugly cows, to me you are into show ring type cows and there is no harm in saying it, i on the other hand will try to pick cows that will hopefully leave me more profit than their dams and last at lot longer.

I want both, can be done easily, why sacrifice it completely for traits with such low heritability? Yeah there is no harm in saying it but you're wrong,a cow in proportion and with bits in the right places will score higher that one thats not regardless of height.

I respect the show guys but doesn't concern me or 99% of other farmers, life for me is too short to not want a nice herd of cows, throwing on clusters and only seeing four teats isn't fulfilling in the long term but thats just me but can't believe I'm the only one.

My aims are similar to yours, ironically my CI is 379 days and breeding has gone better this year although no final scan yet but then I'm a rebel to the current management mantra too.

centre 13

No shortage of hi ebi jrsey to cross on the oman sons TIO CFD Xbred PKU etc.

stanflt

centre 13 wrote: »

No shortage of hi ebi jrsey to cross on the oman sons TIO CFD Xbred PKU etc.

a question i like to ask people thinking of cross breeding{before i refer to studies and recomendations from hillsborough)

what is your main reason for cross breeding?

i ask anyone to answerthis question honestly

linebacker52

stanflt wrote: »

a question i like to ask people thinking of cross breeding{before i refer to studies and recomendations from hillsborough)

what is your main reason for cross breeding?

i ask anyone to answerthis question honestly

my reason for cross breeding and im only still thinking about

i what a cow that will go incalf easy milk 4 to 5 thousand litres a year have good fat and protein and is easy to look after and i what her to do it from grass only.i only what to feed meal when there is a shortage of grass i dont what to be feeding her tonnes of expensive feed at low milk price.

find me a black and white cow that can do this and i will be happy

stanflt

linebacker52 wrote: »

my reason for cross breeding and im only still thinking about

i what a cow that will go incalf easy milk 4 to 5 thousand litres a year have good fat and protein and is easy to look after and i what her to do it from grass only.i only what to feed meal when there is a shortage of grass i dont what to be feeding her tonnes of expensive feed at low milk price.

find me a black and white cow that can do this and i will be happy

try FTV will give you milk solids and fertility and calves and culls that are worth money

linebacker52

stanflt wrote: »

try FTV will give you milk solids and fertility and calves and culls that are worth money

ebi of 123 is way to low herd avg is 108 i need to be using bulls of at least 200

stanflt

linebacker52 wrote: »

ebi of 123 is way to low herd avg is 108 i need to be using bulls of at least 200

why-do you really think ebi pays the bills

which would you prefer

2 cows with the same ebi, both cows have a calving interval of 365

cow a gives 4000litres

cow b gives 6500lt

stanflt

linebacker52 wrote: »

ebi of 123 is way to low herd avg is 108 i need to be using bulls of at least 200

good ebi- calving interval must be 375 so

linebacker52

stanflt wrote: »

why-do you really think ebi pays the bills

which would you prefer

2 cows with the same ebi, both cows have a calving interval of 365

cow a gives 4000litres

cow b gives 6500lt

yes i do belive ebi is paying the bills i run a low input low out put system i need a cow to suit that system.im not saying there is anything wrong with other systems there just not for me.